Re: Mankind project
Posted by: anonymous39 ()
Date: June 24, 2010 05:22AM

@anticult, I have to agree here with @curiousnycgirl.

Completely appreciate where you're coming from and your passion, but three points:
1. Extreme pro-MKP or extreme anti-MKP at some point begins to sound just extreme. It starts to become hard to credit, from any perspective.
2. @curiousnycgirl and I are both living with an active situation. Using the MKP admonition of speaking only for myself, obviously I'm not a fan at all. I've been alternately infuriated, broken-hearted, and completely freaked out. But the context of my situation is that I'm married to a person who believes that MKP might help him. The only thing I can do in this situation is learn everything that I can and try to keep the lines of communication open, and make sure he knows that at least so far, it's doing exactly the opposite of helping me. I may well become extremely anti-MKP myself (or maybe I am already), but at this moment in time it wouldn't do me to go there. Doing so and, for example, setting down an ultimatum would be extremely unproductive, and to be honest I'm a little worried about what he'd say if it came to that. I have to put at least a tiny bit of trust in his judgment, though obviously I won't be putting all my eggs in that basket.
3. I see that kind of language in contracts that my company signs all the time, specifically non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) and indemnification clauses. I spend a lot of time working to get the latter removed, in fact. But it's pretty common language. Agree with you that signing as-is perhaps isn't a smart idea.

WRT the last item, the Promise of Confidentiality, I'm curious if anyone has read this article (http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/08/24/mankind-project-goes-transparent/) and if they know what happened to the idea?

"I believe that on balance, it will serve the ManKind Project to release our expectations of secrecy and step into transparency about our processes. I propose that MKP begin to provide disclosure about our processes to the extent it is requested by potential initiates and the general public. This means:
Men who have done the NWTA will be released from any obligation to maintain secrecy about our processes, and will be encouraged to share information about the NWTA to the extent it is requested. This applies particularly to men involved in NWTA enrollment."

I've run into several men who actually thought the entire weekends agenda was posted on the MKPI web site, so some rumor of this actually happening seems to have circulated, but then obviously people are still signing promises of confidentiality.

Anyone know?

Re: Mankind project
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 24, 2010 05:46AM

Someone once posted the entire MKP manual at this message board.

Subsequently MKP made a legal threat and the material is now quoted within "fair use" guidelines for the purpose of critical analysis.

Anyone objectively reading that material review here can easily see how deceptive and manipulative MKP is.

Given the history of complaints, bad press and litigation surrounding MKP, it is not a program that I would recommend to anyone for anything.

Saying that some people are "not up to it" implies that somehow others are "up to it."

Nothing could be further from the truth given the group's deeply troubled history and that of large group awareness training generally.

I understand that when someone you care about is involved you want to believe the best and that everything will be OK.

But avoiding the sad truth about MKP is not really an answer and won't help someone that has been sucked in.

Professional counseling, credible support groups, continuing education and seeking help from family and friends are all far safer alternatives.

None of these options would require a waiver, and some are free.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 05:50AM by rrmoderator.

ManKind project, NWTA Assumption of Risk, Indemnification & Release
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 24, 2010 06:03AM

There is some pretty bad misinformation (for whatever reason) in the last few posts, perhaps due to lack of understanding how this LGAT seminar business operates, or something else.

Those DEATH waivers are NOT standard. Standard for what?
They are written for a reason, because people regularly get seriously hurt at these seminars, not just physically, but psychologically, emotionally and financially.

Those are legal contracts, people are signing. As such, of course they are enforceable in court. Its beyond naive to even suggest otherwise.
How can someone suggest a signed legal contract is worthless? That is very strange, or very naive.
Anyone have $150,000 to burn to even begin to try to test those written, signed, witnessed legal contracts in court?
Anyone have a couple years to waste?

There are endless examples of these LGAT seminars suing the hell out of people, and bankrupting them, or forcing them to capitulate or lose their home. It happens constantly.

If a husband goes and signs those horrible contracts, he is subjecting his wife and family to those serious risks from MKP.


The MKP system starts out with lower fees, like all LGAT's, that's how it works. Then it get upsold, to all sorts of other seminars, and coachings, and quickly you are into tens of thousands, as seen below.

Watch out for those who have no training in the powerful techniques being used by these groups, used to break down people's identities/minds in a couple days.

This is no joke. People can get seriously hurt.
Just read their own waivers for the proof.


---------------quote-------------
Are there other trainings after the NWTA?

A wide range of advanced trainings are offered by the ManKind Project and numerous loosely affiliated organizations created and operated by New Warriors and their partners. Our members have created trainings to address multiple aspects of masculinity, ... meditation and spiritual practices, religious explorations, support for elders and young men, fathers, divorced men, gay men, advanced leadership training, corporate training, individual coaching and counseling, shadow work, numerous body-mind and healing modalities, wilderness leadership and exploration, sustainability and ecological living, community building and more. Some of these trainings are sponsored by MKP Communities, others sponsored independently.
--------------------------



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 06:06AM by The Anticult.

MKP New Warrior Training: Sept 24-26, 2010 Tucson, AZ (death contract)
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 24, 2010 06:54AM

Below is where MKP makes you sign away the rest of your rights.

You MUST sign and execute 4 of these legal contracts, in-person on-site, which are witnessed and signed by the MKP centre director or agent.
You are signing your life away to MKP, and that of your Heirs as stated below.

No one should EVER sign such one-sided, biased and outrageous contracts like the MKP legal contract, which MKP forces you to sign to attend their LGAT seminars.

A MKP New Warrior Training Adventure will be occurring in Arizona, the same state where people died and many were seriously and permanently injured at the James Arthur Ray "Spiritual Warrior" seminar, with very similar "death contracts" as the ManKind Project.


----------------quote-----------------
New Warrior Training Adventure Dates: September 24-26, 2010
Training Site: 510 N. Stone Ave - Tucson, AZ

The Mankind Project, an Illinois corporation,
The ManKind Project of Arizona, an Arizona corporation,

Participant Agreements:
Assumption of Risk, Indemnification & Release
New Warrior Training Adventure

11. Mediation, Arbitration, Waiver of Right to Sue.
I expressly agree that any claim or cause of action of any kind against MKP as a direct or indirect result of my participation in the Activities or NWTA, must first be submitted to mediation by a neutral third party, preferably a mediator who practices regularly under the auspices of the courts of the state where the MKP Center facilitating the NWTA is located. If after four (4) sessions, mediation is unsuccessful, the matter must then be submitted for a final and binding arbitration of my claims. Any such arbitration will be held in the state where the MKP Center facilitating the NWTA is located, and Illinois substantive law will apply in all such proceedings without regard to choice of law principles.

I agree that any resulting arbitration award is final and binding upon both MKP and upon me and my Heirs, and by executing this Agreement I am expressly waiving any and all rights to litigate any such claim in any state or federal court. Any cause of action to enforce any arbitration award or any cause of action brought against MKP notwithstanding the waivers contained in this Agreement, must be brought in a court of competent jurisdiction in the state where the MKP Center facilitating the NWTA is located, and Illinois substantive law will apply. Any arbitrator chosen pursuant to this paragraph will be chosen from a list or lists supplied by the American Arbitration Association (AAA), with AAA rules to apply, and/or the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, or from any other mutually agreeable source.
__________________________

Re: ManKind project, NWTA Assumption of Risk, Indemnification & Releas
Posted by: anonymous39 ()
Date: June 24, 2010 06:55AM

@anticult, next time you go skiing, read the contract. I'll bet the indemnification, wrongful death etc is nearly word for word.

I do completely agree that the decision to do this or anything like this should be done together, after a serious discussion of what exactly they're getting into, legally and emotionally, and that any final decisions should be joint decisions. It's the worst kind of self-centered immaturity to pretend that no one else is impacted.

Re: MKP New Warrior Training: Sept 24-26, 2010 Tucson, AZ (death contract)
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 24, 2010 07:03AM

Those who promote MKP are as dishonest as the worst in any LGAT seminar company.
They are right up there with Landmark Education.

Even worse, MKP feels self-righteous about deliberately deceiving men, and lying to them.
Why?
Because they believe they are doing what alleged "tribal" people do, where the young boys are taken from their mothers with deception, and taken away by the men, traumatized, terrorized and initiated into "manhood".
So that is why the MKPers feel justified lying their asses off to men, and to the public.
Its for your own good, that is why they are deceiving you. That is what they believe.

There have been some outrageous lying and MKP trolling in this forum in various guises, and the bottom line is that MKP should be avoided at all costs.

Re: Mankind project
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: June 24, 2010 07:19AM

Quote
curiousnycgirl
SNIP
Last week he had his first i group meeting. He felt it was great, he felt supported, he felt the guys gave him really great advice - specifically on how to gain a relationship with his son (he would say repair, but I don't feel they have one). Interesting that they told him to do the same things I've been saying for years, me (who actually knows and has a realtionship with his son) he ignores, them he listens to.

Thanks very much for your report, curiousnycgirl.

THe phenomenon of a woman making a point, being ignored, and then a man saying the very same thing and being acknowledged is widely documented in the sociological literature. You might want to look up a few articles.

Quote
curiousnycgirl
Anticult I appreciate your passion on this subject, however I have not been able to find any factual documentation to support that MKP is a pyramid scheme, multi level marketing, or any other profit making enterprise. If you have proof of such I would appreciate your sharing it.

Obviously, I'm not speaking for Anticult; I'm just adding my own perspective.

LGATs aren't structured like MLMs or pyramid schemes. They usually aren't directly focused on sales and products. Rather, they latch onto topics of wide public interest -- for example, how to have better relationships, be a better parent, use time more efficiently, lose weight, be more loving, etc and use lower-cost seminars on those topics to lure people through the door. Then they hook those people and drain their bank accounts, because--and here's where they're like MLMs or pyramid schemes-- LGATs don't exist to serve members; they exist to serve top leaders. And that fact alone makes all of them manipulative, exploitative, and destructive.

What LGATs actually offer is the emotional experience -- feelings of bonding, coming home, feeling whole, and so on. Those experiences are the reason people who take these workshops have such a powerful, memorable experience. This "workshop rush" is physiologically no different from the rush a heroin user feels the first time, and it leads to the same disastrous outcomes. Leaders use those emotions in order to create dependence in members, dependence they can then exploit to sell more workshops. They don't arouse emotion to serve members' personal growth, because nothing leaders do is primarily meant to serve members. Any genuinely useful knowledge or skills members might learn is incidental.

And that would have to be the case, because people can find everything offered in an LGAT cheaper and better somewhere else. No information is special, new, or different-- it's all derivative, or plagiarized, or wholly invented. It would have to be, because legitimate researchers and teachers don't use this format.

Scientology is the template for all US-based LGATs. It offers free "personality testing" which is designed to show that the test-taker has problems only Scientology can solve, and the first few courses are quite cheap. Then, as people become convinced that Scientology has all the answers and is the only way to a fulfilling, worthwhile life, the courses become costlier and the demands for money unceasing.

The numerous deaths and bankruptcies that Scientology is responsible for are well-documented (as are the sad consequences ex-participants in many LGATs have suffered). Nothing built on this template has, or can have, a long-term positive impact on anyone's well-being.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 07:25AM by Christa.

Mankind project, Misogynist misogyny "New Warrior Training" "48 hours"
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: June 24, 2010 07:47AM

Quote
Christa
THe phenomenon of a woman making a point, being ignored, and then a man saying the very same thing and being acknowledged is widely documented in the sociological literature. You might want to look up a few articles.

As well, in MKP there are clear streaks of various forms of misogyny, probably varying depending on the local group and leader.
Search Google for:

"mankind project" misogyny
ManKind Project - Misogynist

MKP set-out to deliberately get men to detach from their alleged immature "mommy complex" which they say they have projected onto their wives, etc etc blah blah.
So part of the "training" is to detach more from the women in their life, and they get into all sorts of crackpot stuff in some strains of the "men's movement".

Notice that probably half of these MKP members have renamed themselves after some kind of "wolf". So now hubbie the docile dentist, is told by MKP he is now the Alpha Male Wolf?

But regardless of those psychological machinations, much more importantly on top of all that, the MKP leaders have COPIED the most destructive and power persuasion techniques from the LGATS.

Yes, like MKP claims, there are advanced techniques in persuasion and brainwashing to break down people's Identities, personalities and minds in 48 hrs.
The MKP founders simply copied Werner Erhard, and all of the numerous techniques learned in the last 30 years to break down people's identities in as little as 48 hours.
The proof is out there.


Search Google for:

"New Warrior Training" "48 hours"
MKP "48 hours"

Re: Mankind project
Posted by: curiousnycgirl ()
Date: June 24, 2010 10:20AM

Quote
Christa
THe phenomenon of a woman making a point, being ignored, and then a man saying the very same thing and being acknowledged is widely documented in the sociological literature. You might want to look up a few articles.

I don't need articles, I live my life that way. I work in a very male dominated industry. You missed my point. Which was that he listened to these men, who he barely know,s who did not know his son,




Quote
Christa
LGATs aren't structured like MLMs or pyramid schemes. They usually aren't directly focused on sales and products. Rather, they latch onto topics of wide public interest -- for example, how to have better relationships, be a better parent, use time more efficiently, lose weight, be more loving, etc and use lower-cost seminars on those topics to lure people through the door. Then they hook those people and drain their bank accounts, because--and here's where they're like MLMs or pyramid schemes-- LGATs don't exist to serve members; they exist to serve top leaders. And that fact alone makes all of them manipulative, exploitative, and destructive.

What LGATs actually offer is the emotional experience -- feelings of bonding, coming home, feeling whole, and so on. Those experiences are the reason people who take these workshops have such a powerful, memorable experience. This "workshop rush" is physiologically no different from the rush a heroin user feels the first time, and it leads to the same disastrous outcomes. Leaders use those emotions in order to create dependence in members, dependence they can then exploit to sell more workshops. They don't arouse emotion to serve members' personal growth, because nothing leaders do is primarily meant to serve members. Any genuinely useful knowledge or skills members might learn is incidental.

And that would have to be the case, because people can find everything offered in an LGAT cheaper and better somewhere else. No information is special, new, or different-- it's all derivative, or plagiarized, or wholly invented. It would have to be, because legitimate researchers and teachers don't use this format.

Scientology is the template for all US-based LGATs. It offers free "personality testing" which is designed to show that the test-taker has problems only Scientology can solve, and the first few courses are quite cheap. Then, as people become convinced that Scientology has all the answers and is the only way to a fulfilling, worthwhile life, the courses become costlier and the demands for money unceasing.

The numerous deaths and bankruptcies that Scientology is responsible for are well-documented (as are the sad consequences ex-participants in many LGATs have suffered). Nothing built on this template has, or can have, a long-term positive impact on anyone's well-being.

Agreed again you missed my point. Anticult indicated that someone was making a lot of money - others have suggested the various structures I listed. My point was that I have seen no evidence of all this money being out there.

I have stated since my first post that I was not buying it - and I have since said I agree that MKP is certainly an LGAT - and that I am seeing it as destructive.

Re: Mankind project
Posted by: curiousnycgirl ()
Date: June 24, 2010 10:27AM

Anticult -

Once again I have to disagree with your belief that the contracts are unique to LGATs. Forms of these indemnification clauses, etc are found in almost all sports related contracts. As anonymous39 pointed out skiing has these clauses, as do Scuba Diving, Bungee Jumping, Horse Back riding, membership in Club Med etc.

Clearly you have very strong opinions on this subject. Perhaps if you shared your personal experience vs. telling us to google things, we might understand your positions better.

Thx,
CNYCG

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