many have overcome without it. A preacher named Joyce Meyers with a ministry called Life in the Word has overcome a life of abuse and that included sexual abuse etc.etc.etc. just by her personal relationship with God. I suggest you try the notebook and surrender to the God inside your heart and see how it goes before considering anymore man made plans. I loved the psychiatrist named David Viscott who is deceased now and he said only 10% of therapists are any good and I have seen so many people be destroyed..the key if you do go is feeling better at the first appointment..second and no later than the third one was Dr. David Viscott's message. I am leary for I saw too many bad cases. Try the notebook and prayer and meditation alone with God in the setting of your choice and tap into the power within yourself that is your spirit. I am believing this is your time and God has a very special plan for you. I will be praying with you and for you and love is God and God is love and perfect love casts out all fear and love is the healer of our past. The past is dead and gone and we must look forward and never look back. Life is too short to dwell on the hardships and disappointments, and it all happened for a reason and God will take it all and put you on a special calling for him. Transformation is for you and it's through your personal relationship with God. try it, you'll like it..and you will not depend on man or man's knowledge..this is so much easier..and check out Life in the Word with Joyce Meyers she is on everywhere and quite entertaining..all true life experiences and she's fun...good juice for the day..god bless..

trance--especially since you note that it wasnt the content that was significant but the emotional tone.

Given that you're still painfully influenced by all this after 5 years out of the group, some counseling with an expert might be worth a try. Rick can probably recommend some exit counselors in your area--that can ensure the cult issues will be addressed first. Look for someone who has experience counseling people in discreet groups like yours.

I recommend this with some urgency, because Amy Wallace, who was in a covert cult run by Carlos Castaneda described one woman who had been a member of the cults inner circle. She broke away, lived in the outside world for 10 years (which included a brief marriage, and training to be an acupuncturist).

Yet this person found herself so lonesome for the intensity and special status conferred on her in the cult that she returned--after ten YEARS outside the group. She narrowly escaped being included in a group of disciples who disappeared after Castaneda's death and who are presumed dead, most likely by suicide.

Exit counseling can help you identify how you were manipulated and whether you're still affected by some trance induction you're nto aware of, that could be triggered by subliminal cues in your daily life. This has been a problem for persons who left Renaissance. One man reported that the number '44' had a mystical signficance, and he would trance out while driving his car if he saw a license plate with '44' on it.

A rogue psychiatrist would know a thing or two about trance induction, and meditation techniques taught by Gurdjieff himself are known to have induced trance. Ouspensky, in his book In Search of the Miraculous, described practicing Gurdjieff's 'self remembering' exercise and realized that he had blanked out for half a day, had run a series of complex errands, but had NO recollection of any of it.

Ouspensky was convinced that he'd achieved a breakthrough; what really happened was that by following Gurdjieff's meditation practice, he'd triggered a serious rupture (dissociation) in his conscious awareness--something harmful, not helpful at all.


Key thing is regain full custody of your inner life and emotions and identify what is 'you' and dis-identify with the stuff that is alien and may have been trance-induced during your time in the group.
An exit counselor can help with this. Later, after exit counseling is complete, you can see if you need formal psychotherapy.

Good luck!

I can hear your concern. I'm letting you know that your information and suggestions will not go to waste. I do intend to do whatever it takes to live a fulfilling and significant life. I can already see many of the ways that I was manipulated and played with ... and I'm starting to get angry about it. But, I also am justifying it ... because I know that, aside from all the "crud" I got alot of good things from Royal Way. I also feel a need to protect the leader from any criticism or misunderstandings.

I do remember a Gurjieff teaching that was directly referenced and used frequently. That teaching was: "you cannot sit on two stools." Meaning that you cannot serve both your teacher (Michael) and another teacher (referring to the ego teacher.) You cannot sit on two stools ... you need to choose one of them only, and this decision needs to be made by the student/pupil. You see, everything was wrapped in the "freedom to choose" and no one was ever told that they have to do something if they didn't want to do it. We were taught to trust only in our own experience ... that only the heart can experience God ... the mind cannot know God. We were also taught that only a healthy ego could truely surrender itself. That it is important to have a healthy ego. That a healthy and surrendered ego is a gift to mankind.

Everything sounds pretty good ... but not really. Something is definately wrong here, it's just very difficult to pinpoint. I am glad that I left, just sorry for the others and all the wasted time. I wanted to make sure that you knew that I greatly appreciate your concern and help.

these long term esoteric groups can really get under a person's skin. They're intimate, like family.

Dont know if this is of use, but I was entangled with a Christian minister and the relationship turned cultic. The guy did all the right things, had a local reputation as a saint and a hero, taught all the right things.

But only after working with a therapist who has modeled agenda-free attention, did I begin to realize that always, from the very beginning, there was a subtle psychic 'pull' in X's direction.

He could quote Scripture, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, etc. But always, subtly the psycho-emotional 'after image' was not the teaching, but X's charismatic personality.

I felt driven to write transcripts of our sessions, including his body language, because it all seemed so signficant. (this later turned otu to be priceless when I had to re-assess the relationship)

when I worked with my therapist, I realized that I felt no need to write transcripts of our sessions--a one or two paragraph summary was enough.

That was when I realized that I did not sense a non-verbal 'pull' from my therapist. His attention was FREE of covert narcissism. By contrast, behind X's charisma and altruism, was a black hole--in clinical terms, a needy, narcissistic personality that he kept hidden.

I have learned to assess prospective teachers and therapists, by listening 'behind their words' and assessing whether they have a peaceful presence, or whether they put out a 'traction beam.'

Anyone who emits that 'pull' is trying to fill up an inner void by embezzling your attention and energy. They are not qualified to teach--period.

This is not the same as a healthy adult interdependance. I am talking about something covert, where your attention and energy is being pilfered to empower someone at your expense.

learn to notice the quality of a person's presence behind his or her words--is it a quiet, rich presence--or is there that needy 'pull', that traction beam?

I call it psychic panhandling.

All the material your teacher brought it was probably used to conceal his psychic panhandling.

... the focus of energy / attention, even when not in his presence .... The use of repetition ... performing the same thing over and over for one hour or longer; sometimes several hours ... with the strong intent of going deeper and deeper each time. This was the "way to God." But, it was exhausting if you fought it. If you "surrendered" it was a "taste of the divine." Everything was so poetic, but like a maze. It was all so strange.

I, along with many others, took notes fervently ... after sessions, we would write everything we could remember. Writing is good, I suppose, it organizes and puts things in perspective ... it's an outlet for expression. But this writing focused on what was taught, the experience of the meditation(s), writing was specific. Even though no one else would see it.

A little like your "X", I also felt that I had choosen a teacher wisely.

in his or her direction--its actually draining for you, and in the long run, a trap.


Cultivation of energy is very different from someone rousing your energy so as to tap it for themselves.

Here is an example of someone who did it ethically. I watched a practitioner of Taoist Chi Gong heal someone. The man had a back ache and the teacher, without touching him, channelled some energy to the exact spot where his injury was. Each time the teacher did it, the man jumped a little bit.

I was standing 4 feet away behind the teacher and felt little electrical prickles each time he pointed his fingers toward the man's back. There was no chanting or visualization. And the teacher told the guy, 'This is for your temporary relief. You must continue working with your doctor back home.'

But the most remarkable thing is, that whenever I remember this, the phenomenon itself--that it is possible for humans to channel subtle energy for healing--its the phenomenon that seemed more signficant that the teacher himself.

The teacher did NOT act from ego, so his personality did not leave a lingering, obsessive trance in my memory. Its what the teacher DID, not his personality, that impressed me.

If someone's personality dominates your memory, but you cant remember what he or she said or did, then you can bet this person's ego was running the show, and sucking attention/energy down its maw.

Repetition, tiredness and 'energy suck' are all trademarks of trance and unethical behavior.

A real teacher doesnt pull energy in his or her direction -- a real teacher wants you to be able to cultivate that energy in your own way, and always in service to a larger, benevolent agenda.

We have found and posted two articles from the psychological/psychiatric literature on the dynamics of psychotherapy cults. Persons who wish to evaluate the health of their Fourth Way group, or who want to keep their group in a good place may find the articles a helpful resource.

[board.culteducation.com]

The articles can also be accessed, respectively, at

[www.ex-iwp.org]

[66.102.7.104]

Recently I attended an event where a lot of RWers were present. The name of the leader was mentioned: Dr. Michael Gottlieb (Gottleib ?). Mention was made of reading the 'letters'.

I'm interested in knowing what exactly is the doctrine, has this person acutally published anything (I've searched and found nothing yet). A friend's son is a member and his family is very worried.

I joined Jacumba in the 80's and left in the late 90's. It was an amazing many years. But bottom line, since your asking, is you are pushed to believe only in the living teacher, Michael. If you already have knowlege of other teachings, it is very difficult not to know where most of Michael's material comes from.[/quote]

Not long ago someone told me about a Royal Way Retreat. I was thinking of going so I looked Royal Way up on the internet and found your blog. I was concerned about what I read, until I realized that none of these people had ever attended a Royal Way Retreat or met Michael. They are people sharing their negative thoughts about LGATS, not accurate information about Royal Way. Then I saw the comments of the person who had actually attended and stayed for 13 years, and the comments of the person who said their many years in Royal Way were amazing. That sounded pretty good to me, so I figured I'd give it a try and see for myself.

So here's what I thought about the Royal Way Retreat. I had a beautiful experience. I found Michael to be very knowledgeable, kind and genuinely caring about the people on the Retreat. He also has a sense of humor and talks straight, which I found refreshing.

Contrary to what someone said on your blog, Michael did not discourage questions. He encouraged them. He did not tell anyone what to do or how to live his or her life. He simply offered observations and suggestions. I remember thinking that if one is open to what he says, there is much to gain here, even for someone like me -- an independent person who has always gone my own way. So I thought about what was said to me and used it to go my own way even better and function more effectively in my everyday life.

As far as Michael using other's teachings goes, he himself said he does that. I kind of liked that he was not tied into using just his own thoughts and ideas. Besides, I figure who cares who said what. It's the experience of the Retreat that was unique.

As for the person who stayed 13 years, it appears that Royal functions on many levels, so I can see how someone could stay that long and have difficulty leaving something so worthwhile. Well, maybe they got what they needed and moved on.

Regarding the comments about Royal Way splitting up families and friends, my observation on the Retreat was just the opposite. The goal was to bring families together. One example was a man who was estranged from his father for many years. After the Retreat they were able to sort out their differences and have a meaningful relationship. And there were other such instances involving spouses, friends, etc.

Regarding money issues mentioned on your blog, the fee for the Royal Way Retreat was reasonable compared to the other Retreats I also looked into, and there are so many things offered in Royal Way that have no fee, it seems like a good deal to me.

Also, I think people who group all LGATS together or call them all cults are simply ignorant of the facts. Certainly there are some dangerous LGATS out there. There are also some dangerous doctors out there, does that mean we should not trust any doctors? Of course not. We use our intelligence to discern what is best for us. The same goes for LGATS.

To sum it up, I'm really glad someone told me about the Royal Way Retreat. By the way, I didn't feel recruited at all. I liked what I saw in the person telling me. Attending the Retreat was a beautiful, growthful experience, and I am looking forward to the next one.