The conversation continues on my YouTube video interview of Kurt Opsahl at the EFF on LE DMCA notices. Join in if interested:

[www.youtube.com]
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twistedbeast
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Hi EnricCirne, this is quite interesting. I am interested in this from
someone's point of view who has being involved in LE for several
years. For whom do you think LE products work? and for whom it
doesn't? And what ultimately turned you away form the education after
many years of involvement? Thanks.

EnricCirne
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I will answer in three parts since there's a 500 word limit:

>From the people I know. Est and Landmark Education has worked best for

the minority who took the initial courses, found some useful
discoveries about themselves and the world. Then gone on to live their
lives usually not coming back. Now that doesn't mean it works for
everyone that has been involved for a short period. Most people don't
stay long also have little long term advante from involvement.

Those that seriously commit to being active, stay involved and
implement the ideas as true tend to make little actual progress in
their lives and as is termed in est/LE, have "breakdowns".

I turned away after years of increasing involvement when asked to take
on a new assisting agreement working closely with Werner on a new
project. A type of agreement I would not have turned down, coming to
believe Werner's work would change the world for the better. But, for
my own good since I was way overcommitted, I said "No." This act
changed perspective from completely uncritically accepting est/LE
tenants. I started to think, question and find the ideas and
activities to be unsound.

twistedbeast
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Thanks EnricCirne for replying. This is all very interesting. Did the
reaction of the LE turn you off when you said "No" to the final
commitment? Also what did you find LE activities to be unsound?
Anything like financial or other actions?

EnricCirne
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est/LE courses are hours of intensive, controlled group activity in
hotel and office rooms using hypnotic methods of visualization,
regression, etc. with a subjective philosophies of being responsible
for and creating your own reality. Hypnosis has the short term placebo
effect of producing confidence, increased sense of well being,
stopping smoking, and such. Using such methods, Landmark Education
claim 94% satisfaction.

twistedbeast
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Placebo effect is a very powerful and real effect. Check out NPR show
on placebo effect.
Hypnosis are often used in clinical setting and by psychologist to
benefit people. I am really interested whether LE is using it and
whether they are abusing it? And how are they abusing it?

EnricCirne
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The ethical practice in hypnosis is informing the subject of it's
usage, limitations and results. That is not provided for Landmark
courses. Claims are made of results that are extraordinary,
transformative in people's lives. Hypnosis has short term and limited
results. With such claims, participants in LE are continually
persuaded to volunteer to work at no compensation at Landmark and sell
the courses to those not involved. Most of the labor at Landmark comes
from unpaid volunteers.

twistedbeast
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Interesting. I have no experience with hypnosis personally. From what
I read it is a word used to describe a wide variety of technics to
deliver information to our brain. But the technics are so wide that
even TV ads can be consider a form of hypnosis. It may be unfair to
categorize anything similar into that word. Hypnosis seem to have
negative connotation involving "mind control" or "brain washing".

EnricCirne
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Hypnosis has been clinically and scientifically studied since at least
the 1930's. The American Psychological Association has a branch on
Hypnosis (see apa org - Society of Psychological Hypnosis) and has
recognized it since the 1950's. Among the evidence of the hypnotic
state is the brain being in the Theta state (see wikipedia org on
Hypnosis.)

twistedbeast
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Theta wave would be 4-7 Hz (drowsy). It seem in the Landmark Forum
most people experience alert or excited state, which would be most
likely be in beta state wave 14-32 Hz. Have they done any EEG before
and after the Landmark Forum? and if not then what are the some other
indicators that the Forum is hypnosis?

EnricCirne
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The long closed and open eyed processes; monotone voice used in those
sessions; guided imagery; triggers setup to clean up relationships,
and so forth.

The Landmark Forum and subsequent courses should be studied for
hypnotic state. From my observation some people who shared coming out
of processes where not in an awake, conscious state.

Most interesting, thanks for posting this.

This link also discusses a similar analysis of negative affects of these controversial techniques:

[visionandpsychosis.net]

Quote
"ajinajan"
Most interesting, thanks for posting this.

This link also discusses a similar analysis of negative affects of these controversial techniques:

[visionandpsychosis.net]

If you follow the more recent responses by treenyc, he's using a more sophisticated rhetorical method to discredit me then WayneHughes86. treenyc asks leading, friendly questions as if he's concerned about how Landmark does their courses. Then he concludes to discredit my responses and ask more leading questions.

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
"caligari"

Quote
"ajinajan"
Most interesting, thanks for posting this.

This link also discusses a similar analysis of negative affects of these controversial techniques:

[visionandpsychosis.net]

If you follow the more recent responses by treenyc, he's using a more sophisticated rhetorical method to discredit me then WayneHughes86. treenyc asks leading, friendly questions as if he's concerned about how Landmark does their courses. Then he concludes to discredit my responses and ask more leading questions.

[www.youtube.com]

Yeah, exactly, I saw that.

That is really annoying, hehe.