Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
robjohnson
()
Date: November 16, 2003 03:13AM
There is a human potential and transformation group in the Colorado Springs and Salt Lake City areas to avoid. Until this year, they called themselves Rising Star Communications. Now, they are called VisionWorks International. Their founder came from LifeSpring, and was a Corporate Development Director there. They have been recruiting hard in these areas implying a "softer side" and "more heart" in their trainings. The important item to note here is that they are now recruiting children and teenagers for their programs. Parents beware! Here are links to their main site and to information about their founder:
[www.visionworkstraining.com]
[www.visionworkstraining.com]
VisionWorks operates just like Landmark Education in driving graduates to recruit others. Their programs and curriculum are almost identical.
[www.visionworkstraining.com]
[www.visionworkstraining.com]
VisionWorks operates just like Landmark Education in driving graduates to recruit others. Their programs and curriculum are almost identical.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
miggzz
()
Date: February 07, 2007 12:29PM
Hello, I am a former victim of the organization called Vision Works International. These people are scam artists. I got a call from a girl who got my number from a former friend who belongs to this cult, whom I will not talk to now, and two weeks into her calling me up she told me "you know I won't even consider dating a guy unless they have taken this class and all you would have to do is put down $100 and we would come up with the rest." I will never forget what she said. Lets examine this comment that is in "commas" first of all she called me up and asked me out on a date and I didn't even know her, second of all she was expecting a perfect stranger to spend $100 dollars on something that I had no Idea was all about. Anytime you would ask them what the class was about they would throw generalizations at you of self improvement. To make a long story short I ended up paying $450 dollars for the whole thing even after she said that she and her friends would come up with the rest of the money. THIS NEXT PART IS VERY IMPORTANT. The first night I was there the instructor asked everyone if they were either manipulated or tricked into taking this class and about 80% of the class raised their hands.
So much for integrity. No joke. Because I paid for this class I wanted to give these people the benefit of the doubt and see this thing through to the end, which I did and boy what a disappointment, these people are out of their heads. The last meeting I was there they were recruiting people to go to the next part called "CROSS ROADS" which cost $650, and all of the people there, except me, volunteered to sigh up.
Man $650 dollars isn't something that you can grow out of you backyard.
I then later talked to someone from that organization who graduated from the Cross Roads class and they told me that about 70% of the people who paid $650 just got up and left because the owner of Vision Works International, named Bruce Soloman, was trying to get them to do something they didn't want to do.
STAY AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO MENTIONS THE ORGANIZATION
VISION WORKS INTERNATIONAL, sure they seem like nice people, but they don't really give a damn about you.
Don't even argue with them, just get up and leave before its too late, they will do anything and everything to get you to take this lame class. I am dead serious, would I have told you can save you a lot of grief.
You should not have to pay thousands of dollars just to have friends, and the way the incorporate people into their cult is extremely dishonest and unethical. I would sue the day lights out of these people but they make you sign something saying that you won't at the very beginning.
If you have further information you would like to share with me, please E mail me, and maybe we can take these dishonest disgusting people down. They have no fortitude or integrity.
So much for integrity. No joke. Because I paid for this class I wanted to give these people the benefit of the doubt and see this thing through to the end, which I did and boy what a disappointment, these people are out of their heads. The last meeting I was there they were recruiting people to go to the next part called "CROSS ROADS" which cost $650, and all of the people there, except me, volunteered to sigh up.
Man $650 dollars isn't something that you can grow out of you backyard.
I then later talked to someone from that organization who graduated from the Cross Roads class and they told me that about 70% of the people who paid $650 just got up and left because the owner of Vision Works International, named Bruce Soloman, was trying to get them to do something they didn't want to do.
STAY AWAY FROM ANYONE WHO MENTIONS THE ORGANIZATION
VISION WORKS INTERNATIONAL, sure they seem like nice people, but they don't really give a damn about you.
Don't even argue with them, just get up and leave before its too late, they will do anything and everything to get you to take this lame class. I am dead serious, would I have told you can save you a lot of grief.
You should not have to pay thousands of dollars just to have friends, and the way the incorporate people into their cult is extremely dishonest and unethical. I would sue the day lights out of these people but they make you sign something saying that you won't at the very beginning.
If you have further information you would like to share with me, please E mail me, and maybe we can take these dishonest disgusting people down. They have no fortitude or integrity.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
donloper
()
Date: July 18, 2007 04:29AM
Having gone through the program I know where miggzz is coming from, although for me the experience was a positive one. I recently paid $1,800 to go through all three courses, and then paid another $1,800 for my wife to go (she's in the third course right now), and there were other expenses besides, but for me it was well worth it. I'm a business owner and there were decisions I made about my business after the first class that resulted in me saving around $15K per month, not to mention taking a huge amount of stress off my shoulders, and without Visionworks I wouldn't have made the same decisions. It's not that Visionworks told me what to do with my business, it's just that after the first course it was obvious what I should do, whereas before things were a bit cloudy for me.
But even if I hadn't seen a direct financial benefit, the personal benefits would still be well worth the cost. The course changed how I approach things in life. It has motivated me to take things on that I avoided before, has helped me be more frank and honest in my relationships, and made me less selfish, lazy, and anti-social.
My experience with Dorothy and Bruce Solomon was that they are sincere, caring people who realize that beating around the bush and being "nice" to people doesn't do much to get people to change their lives. They've structured the course to get people out of their comfort zones and get them doing things they wouldn't normally do, and since people don't like to do things they don't like to do a lot of people end up getting disgruntled and dropping out and then they trash-talk the program to make themselves feel better about not being willing to take on the challenges in their own lives.
In the third level of the training there is a heavy emphasis on recruiting other people into the training, but what's wrong with that? Colleges, religions, and football teams all have heavy recruitment efforts too. Sure, some of the people taking the course don't do it the right way, such as what happened with miggzz, but that's the girl's fault, not the program's. The program does not teach people to manipulate others to get them into the program. If anybody thinks the program teaches manipulation techniques then they don't understand the program.
As to it being a cult that is completely laughable. If by "cult" you mean "an organization wherein people do things that other people would find weird" then yes, I guess it is a cult. But by that definition a lot of people would call anybody who eats sushi a cult as well. Yes, I did "weird" things while I was in the training, but they all had a purpose and helped me in some way, and none of them was religious in any way.
Having gone through the entire program I can totally see where miggzz is coming from. I know exactly why he has the perspective on the program that he does. But I can also see that his perspective is based on negative experiences that aren't the fault of the program as well as misunderstandings about what the program is.
Now why am I bothering to type this up? No, I'm not an employee of Visionworks. In fact, Visionworks just went out of business and shut their doors last month, so they're not even around and there is no reason for me to defend a non-existent company except that I care about Bruce and Dorothy, the owners, and feel like sticking up for them and sharing my experience.
But even if I hadn't seen a direct financial benefit, the personal benefits would still be well worth the cost. The course changed how I approach things in life. It has motivated me to take things on that I avoided before, has helped me be more frank and honest in my relationships, and made me less selfish, lazy, and anti-social.
My experience with Dorothy and Bruce Solomon was that they are sincere, caring people who realize that beating around the bush and being "nice" to people doesn't do much to get people to change their lives. They've structured the course to get people out of their comfort zones and get them doing things they wouldn't normally do, and since people don't like to do things they don't like to do a lot of people end up getting disgruntled and dropping out and then they trash-talk the program to make themselves feel better about not being willing to take on the challenges in their own lives.
In the third level of the training there is a heavy emphasis on recruiting other people into the training, but what's wrong with that? Colleges, religions, and football teams all have heavy recruitment efforts too. Sure, some of the people taking the course don't do it the right way, such as what happened with miggzz, but that's the girl's fault, not the program's. The program does not teach people to manipulate others to get them into the program. If anybody thinks the program teaches manipulation techniques then they don't understand the program.
As to it being a cult that is completely laughable. If by "cult" you mean "an organization wherein people do things that other people would find weird" then yes, I guess it is a cult. But by that definition a lot of people would call anybody who eats sushi a cult as well. Yes, I did "weird" things while I was in the training, but they all had a purpose and helped me in some way, and none of them was religious in any way.
Having gone through the entire program I can totally see where miggzz is coming from. I know exactly why he has the perspective on the program that he does. But I can also see that his perspective is based on negative experiences that aren't the fault of the program as well as misunderstandings about what the program is.
Now why am I bothering to type this up? No, I'm not an employee of Visionworks. In fact, Visionworks just went out of business and shut their doors last month, so they're not even around and there is no reason for me to defend a non-existent company except that I care about Bruce and Dorothy, the owners, and feel like sticking up for them and sharing my experience.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 18, 2007 04:39AM
donloper:
Vision Works is listed as an LGAT.
See [perso.orange.fr]
LGATs have a deeply troubled history of bad press, complaints and lawsuits for personal injuries.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This research paper by a clinical psychologist details the problems with mass marathon training like Vision Works.
He lists 13 liabilities which are;
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The same psychologist lists four danger signs for potentially unsafe LGATs.
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs also seems to rely upon coercive persuasion techniques. To better understand such methods see the following paper by a Stanford University sociologist.
See [www.culteducation.com]
He lists four primare features typical to most LGATs.
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified.
Watch out!
Vision Works is listed as an LGAT.
See [perso.orange.fr]
LGATs have a deeply troubled history of bad press, complaints and lawsuits for personal injuries.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This research paper by a clinical psychologist details the problems with mass marathon training like Vision Works.
He lists 13 liabilities which are;
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The same psychologist lists four danger signs for potentially unsafe LGATs.
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs also seems to rely upon coercive persuasion techniques. To better understand such methods see the following paper by a Stanford University sociologist.
See [www.culteducation.com]
He lists four primare features typical to most LGATs.
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified.
Watch out!
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
donloper
()
Date: July 18, 2007 06:23AM
Cushman, the author of that piece, also insists in his book entitled Constructing the Self, Constructing America Philip Cushman, author of a "cultural history of psychotherapy" titled " that the entire ideology of therapy needs an overhaul. In its most common forms, he argues, therapy fosters the isolated individualism that causes many of the problems it pretends to treat. If therapy were really doing its job, Cushman maintains, it would realize that people's identities are "constructed" — that is, the products of historical and social forces, not the internal struggle of drives or organic developmental stages.
That pretty well matches what Visionworks does, that is, it helps people see that their identities and their motivations often stem from historical (in a personal sense) and social forces. Once people understand what motivates them to do certain things it gives them the opportunity to choose to continue that behavior or change it. In my case, the program assisted me to see that my motivation for holding on to the office space I had occupied with my business for the past four years at a cost of $5K per month was due to avoiding the shame associated with not having an office and the appearance of failure leaving it would generate amongst my peers, rather than all the other legitimate business reasons I had cited as my motivation for keeping the office all those years. Once I realized I was spending $5K per month just to avoid being embarassed rather than for any real business reason it was an easy decision to let the office space go and now I'm saving $5K per month.
Sure, LGAT's get bad press, and that's probably because a lot of them are bad. Maybe most of them are bad. Maybe there are serious dangers to be considered when signing up for an LGAT. Maybe some of them are good for some people and bad for other people, and maybe it's not the program but the people themselves who make it bad or good. The same narcotic that cures one person can destroy the life of the next.
I'm all for people doing research before they sign up for something, but to vilify a program you've barely experienced as well as the people who run it (I'm looking at you miggzz) is just as irresponsible as telling people to sign up before they think about it. Both approaches discourage further research. miggzz had his experience with Visionworks, and I had a very different experience and I think having both of our experiences published in the same place gives people a better opportunity to make informed choices than if it were just one or the other.
As for myself, if I was brainwashed then so be it because I'm happier and richer for it.
That pretty well matches what Visionworks does, that is, it helps people see that their identities and their motivations often stem from historical (in a personal sense) and social forces. Once people understand what motivates them to do certain things it gives them the opportunity to choose to continue that behavior or change it. In my case, the program assisted me to see that my motivation for holding on to the office space I had occupied with my business for the past four years at a cost of $5K per month was due to avoiding the shame associated with not having an office and the appearance of failure leaving it would generate amongst my peers, rather than all the other legitimate business reasons I had cited as my motivation for keeping the office all those years. Once I realized I was spending $5K per month just to avoid being embarassed rather than for any real business reason it was an easy decision to let the office space go and now I'm saving $5K per month.
Sure, LGAT's get bad press, and that's probably because a lot of them are bad. Maybe most of them are bad. Maybe there are serious dangers to be considered when signing up for an LGAT. Maybe some of them are good for some people and bad for other people, and maybe it's not the program but the people themselves who make it bad or good. The same narcotic that cures one person can destroy the life of the next.
I'm all for people doing research before they sign up for something, but to vilify a program you've barely experienced as well as the people who run it (I'm looking at you miggzz) is just as irresponsible as telling people to sign up before they think about it. Both approaches discourage further research. miggzz had his experience with Visionworks, and I had a very different experience and I think having both of our experiences published in the same place gives people a better opportunity to make informed choices than if it were just one or the other.
As for myself, if I was brainwashed then so be it because I'm happier and richer for it.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
formerimpactgrad
()
Date: July 18, 2007 07:29AM
Quote
donloper
They've structured the course to get people out of their comfort zones and get them doing things they wouldn't normally do, and since people don't like to do things they don't like to do a lot of people end up getting disgruntled and dropping out and then they trash-talk the program to make themselves feel better about not being willing to take on the challenges in their own lives.
What a great quote! Ofcourse the negative feedback about the group can be completely attributed to the personal problems of the people giving the feedback, because the program itself is completely above reproach, no matter what anyone else says, right?! What a joke!
Quote
donloper
In the third level of the training there is a heavy emphasis on recruiting other people into the training, but what's wrong with that? Colleges, religions, and football teams all have heavy recruitment efforts too.
Hmm, so because Colleges offer scholarships, football teams offer money and religions send out missionaries, Visionquest's manipulative recruiting tactics are completely ok? By sponsoring a trainee that uses manipulation, Visionquest is sponsoring the manipulation itself.
I've heard that there is a connection between Vision Quest and the Impact Trainings. Does anyone know anything about that? Is it just because the founders came from Lifespring? I would love to hear any non-conditioned answers.
Thanks!
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
donloper
()
Date: July 18, 2007 12:58PM
You missed the point. It's not that the program is above reproach, it's that there may be reasons people criticize the program other than because it's a bad program. It's not an either/or situation as some make it out to be. In my own brief experience with Visionworks (I had never heard of it until about three months ago) I saw a lot of people who were gung-ho about it, found it too difficult to keep up, dropped out, and then came up with excuses that had no basis in reality but made them feel better about themselves as opposed to thinking of themselves as failures. I also saw people drop out based on excuses that were more legitimate.
On the second issue, I thought Visionworks was manipulative about recruiting at first, but after an hour and a half discussion with Bruce Solomon I could see where he was coming from and the recruiting made sense to me. From my experience the only people who seemed to have real problems with recruiting were those believed that Visionworks was all about making money and had nothing to do with helping people. If you start out believing that way then you see everything one way, if you believe the owners are sincere then you see it another way. Based on results, it appears Visionworks was not enough about the money, or they'd still be in business.
On the second issue, I thought Visionworks was manipulative about recruiting at first, but after an hour and a half discussion with Bruce Solomon I could see where he was coming from and the recruiting made sense to me. From my experience the only people who seemed to have real problems with recruiting were those believed that Visionworks was all about making money and had nothing to do with helping people. If you start out believing that way then you see everything one way, if you believe the owners are sincere then you see it another way. Based on results, it appears Visionworks was not enough about the money, or they'd still be in business.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 18, 2007 09:43PM
donloper:
In your explanation of why people have left Visionworks, you forgot one category.
There was something wrong with Visionworks, and the person that left found that out.
Givien the history of LGATs this is probably the primary reason.
In your explanation of why people have left Visionworks, you forgot one category.
There was something wrong with Visionworks, and the person that left found that out.
Givien the history of LGATs this is probably the primary reason.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
formerimpactgrad
()
Date: July 18, 2007 10:04PM
Quote
donloper
Based on results, it appears Visionworks was not enough about the money, or they'd still be in business.
Great Statement! I guess it could also be said that, "Based on results the training doesn't work or else more people would have gone through and the company would still be in business".
Donloper, your rationalization for why people criticize the program is ridiculous because you attempt to apply it, as you already have in this forum, unilaterally without knowing a thing about the person's specific situation. Read the other LGAT threads and you will see that in this way LGAT's and LGAT apologists do not very much from company to company.
Rising Star / VisionWorks International
Posted by:
donloper
()
Date: July 19, 2007 01:01AM
Since I had a great experience with the program including very tangible positive results I assume that those who come away feeling negative about the program fall into one of three camps; either I've been brainwashed and my life has really gotten worse since the program and I only think it has gotten better since I started making more money, being less stressed, and spending more time with my wife, or the program is good for some but not for others, or people are sabotaging their experience and deliberately creating negative results. I can accept that the program isn't perfect and might not be a good fit for everyone, in fact I know it was far from perfect, but it sounds as though you've closed your minds to even the remote possibility that any LGAT might be good in any way for anyone.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.