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New Zealand is also a soft target, remembering that Landmark Education refers to NZ as it's most successful country with the highest per capita enrolment in the world.

Landmark wanted New Zealand to be the first country that it achieved critical mass. That being that a certain percentage of the country had participated in landmark and that a high percentage of the country knew of landmark if not the whole country.

Certainly in the time since I did the landmark forum in the 90's I know it is a lot more widely known now. People no longer give you this weird look when you say you worked for them at one stage.

Landmark in New Zealand was at one stage losing money and I imagine if the offices were in another country would have been closed down.

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sonnie_dee

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New Zealand is also a soft target, remembering that Landmark Education refers to NZ as it's most successful country with the highest per capita enrolment in the world.

Landmark wanted New Zealand to be the first country that it achieved critical mass. That being that a certain percentage of the country had participated in landmark and that a high percentage of the country knew of landmark if not the whole country.

Certainly in the time since I did the landmark forum in the 90's I know it is a lot more widely known now. People no longer give you this weird look when you say you worked for them at one stage.

Landmark in New Zealand was at one stage losing money and I imagine if the offices were in another country would have been closed down.

Hi Sonnie,


There must be a pretty vigorous ex-Landmark and anti-Landmark contingent in New Zealand by now. I would think once the "cat was out of the bag," so to speak, New Zealanders would catch on fairly quickly. After all, thrity years' bad PR in the U.S. would have to catch up with them sooner or later. Ever hear anything from the "60 Minutes" reporter? I wonder if she is still working on the story. All it takes is one really bad news story or one really compelling "witness." I think Landmark was very nearly put out of business after the '91 televison expose here. That they have resurrected themselves is disturbing, but I imagine they know there is always enough money involved in the snake-oil business to just wait it out. It's the same damn people all over again, minus Werner. Ultimately, they are opportunists, willing to wait for another opportunity (~possibility~) when things die down and memories fade. The scientologists have tried to get public funding for a "Charter School" here for decades. Once someone on the school board recognizes them, their appeal is thrown out, but they just wait until a new board is formed with new members and try again. They very nearly succeeded this last time. Fortunately, there are enough sharp-eyed critics who spot the tell-tale signs of L. Ron's "study tech." (Blech)



Ellen

I finally received the book SHAM by Steve Salerno from the library and am reading it.
Its quite good!
He gives Dr Phil a good kick, as well as Tony Robbins, and all the rest of them. Its not as detailed as I would like, but that book would be too massive and would not sell or be read.
Its a good introduction to being critical of these Self-Help SHAM artists.

I am trying to find his email, so I can send him some more info.
I THINK this is his website. He is also a musician, so I THINK this is him, he SORTA looks the same in the photo's, but I am not sure. [www.stevesalerno.com]

If anyone can find his email, that would be great.
We should send him some links about LGAT'S as he could easily do a similar book about LGAT'S.
There needs to be a good book done about LGAT's and this could bridge the connection between cultish Mind Control and the Self-Help scams, as they feed off eachother....

Again, if anyone can find his email, let me know, so we can send him some links.
We might be able to PERSUADE him to do a book on LGAT's, which would be a nice extension of his SHAM book.

Coz,

Tks for book rec.
I've contacted authors in the past, through writing to them in care of the publisher. Authors who I've contacted this way have usually responded.

[www.randomhouse.com]

Why don't you write the book exposing LGATs? You already know enough to do.

toni

I don't want to be the one getting sued by these maniacs!
:-)
But this is why I respect people who are willing to take these people on head-on, that takes a lot of guts.

But I am working on something that I will try and put out and do some public talks about at some point.
My angle is sorta one-step removed and dealing with the tools and skills of critical thinking, analysis, skepticism, baloney detection, etc, that can be applied across a huge spectrum of problems.

But it would be great if a little mini-industry of LGAT Guru-bashing books started to come out and get read, like this SHAM book.
But sadly, most people are looking for something to Believe in, not something to not believe in.
Also, advertisers love these type of LGAT Gurus, as they build an audience of compliant followers who buy on command.

But us Skeptics are like herding cats, and are hard to sell to, so there is not much money to be made off us, thus there is not much of a market for those types of books.
It seems that human nature is such that those who question and doubt will always be the tiniest minority. The Gurus are just exploiting human nature and All Too Human weaknesses for personal gain, just like the fast food sellers exploit our biological desire to eat sugar, fats and salts.

But I like the SHAM angle of this guy.
People understand RIP-OFF, and sometimes you have to oversimplify it, and shout it from the rooftops to be heard...

I think a book educating about LGATs is critical! LGATs are not recognized by society-at-large as a cult/mind control, unlike other more obvious cults, because they appear so mainstream. I always thought I'd recognize a cult when I saw one and knew I would never get conned. Well, an LGAT got me . . . for 6 years.

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Cosmophilospher
I don't want to be the one getting sued by these maniacs!
:-)
But this is why I respect people who are willing to take these people on head-on, that takes a lot of guts.

I'm new to this whole LGAT scam, having discovered only a year ago that I was conned for a 6 year period, ending in 2001. Now the relationship with my sister is an irreconcilable mess because I recruited [i:13edf348b0]her[/i:13edf348b0] into it.

I am quite angry and am in the process of trying to understand and also to verbalize just [i:13edf348b0]how[/i:13edf348b0] the con happened. I'm analyzing, dissecting, discussing, etc.

Cosmo, or anyone, I'm interested in the grounds on which LGATs sue people. What do you mean by: "take these people on head-on"?. I'm erring on the side of caution right now as far as indulging in a public rant but I do not want to stay silent much longer.

Thanks,

Skeptic

Certain LGAT's will sue you, or threaten to sue you, any chance they can. Look at this web-forum.
The "Winds of Changes" folks were sued for going public with allegations.

So if you put up a public website using your own name, they MIGHT come after you, trying to get your for libel, etc.
Notice how cautious the mainstream media is when even talking about Scientology, they don't want to get sued.

The problem with us folks, is that we are not lawyers, so we don't know how to say things and get away with it.
So we might be emotional and say, "Guru X is a scumbag, criminal and a con-artist", etc, and that language can get you into trouble.

But they don't need proper "grounds" to sue you.
Some of them will launch frivolous lawsuits, as they know you do not have $250,000 to defend yourself! So they win!

The reality is that you need to be very careful what you say in public, unless you really understand the free speech laws, and are set up with some type of pro bono legal defense to protect you.

I have been in recovery from a drug addiction I had in the late 80's early 90's for almost 20 years now. I did rehab then 12 step meetings for years. Then I was hearing about codependency early on, that this is all my parents fault. I was told that by staying with what I felt i would heal the abuse of the past.

Therapists and people in the movement were defining abuse so even things I didn't consider abusive , were abusive my original pain became even more pain. My mum hugging me as a child was turning into emotional incest, my parents screaming at me or hitting me was becoming a crime worth punishing with detachment for life. The parents became all evil. Everything wrong with me stemmed from them.

The most extreme case was when I started connecting with being threatened with my life by bullies when I was 10 because I was of Italian origin. It was such a terrifying experience that I barely remembered it, but boy did it effect my interaction with Anglo Celts. When I bought this to group people started blaming my parents, telling me it was my parents fault that they racially abused me. They told me that Italian were racists too as if that should even out the whole thing. I found this movement the most abusive of anything I have ever done. They hide behind the innocent victim banner, but they are mailicious and cruel. They are driven by a belief that your pain has nothing to do with them but is the fault of your parents. They believe that they can be however they like with you because what comes up for you is your parents fault. Even my racial abuse was the fault of my parents. They almost believe that our need to rely on each other as is the norm in most non English speaking communities is dysfunctional, actually they do.

I think this thread is bringing up some really good points. This is an English Speaking countries phenomenon. I came from a very loving family in the overall scheme of things although it wasn't perfect, they were always there for their children and did their best with what they believed to be right. We have 0 divorce in my extended family which is phenomenal in this day and age. Problems were always talked about and resolved. I've spent years blaming my family for who I am, that my imperfection is their fault...it got me nowhere really! The reality is I was probably Aspergers as a child and my reactions stemmed from that place. With help like my son's getting my life could have been very different.

This is ironic and many of you won't like what I'm gonna say here, but please Ross hear me out. Landmark Education saved me from this, what I believe, is a negative destructive sugar coated victim persecutor sect. The codependency movement is a franchise operated money making machine pedaling in people's misery and pain and keeping them there in their (the patients) belief they are gonna get better. I have seen people doing this stuff after 20 yrs still regressed and contemplating suicide with the therapist feeling relief around them still coughing up money to remember more abuse and pain. People in this movement believe themselves to be better then others because they spend money and feel their feelings more. They view people outsid etheir movement with suspicion.

Of all the organizations I have read about on this site, this industry is the one I consider the most insidious and abusive. This cult will never let you go because you'll never get better until your pain is gone and they never specify a completion date. I spent over $5000 on therapy last year. My business went close to bankruptcy because of the paralysis I was in. What I'm doing now has cost me a fraction of that and I feel that I am in a place where I'm likely to rarely need paid help again. What's more I have my loving family back and despite the recession my business is turning around.

I believe that anything you do should be based in spiritual values. Anything that goes away from resolution, forgiveness and connection with the world outside should be stayed away from. If you need help choose your therapist wisely.