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roveberg
I opened this thread 5 days ago, and have been too busy since to get back on, but was interested to read everyone's replies.

I'd like to respond to each person, and I'm sure it will take some time, that I don't have right now.

Everyone's point of view is valid, and I'm not out to go toe-to-toe with anyone. So far I hear varied angles on the same argument, but overall what I'm getting is that people feel really burned in some way! Especially the former Staff.

My GOD guys, you're STAFF!!! I'm almost speechless - my listening of Staff is pretty high. You people put yourselves in a position which said "Yes I'm here for training and developing, I want you to call me on my shit, on who I SAID I am going to be, and I will be responsible for my [u:8f60a09975]own[/u:8f60a09975] experience here, and what I'm out to accomplish in the world, and with my family and friends". Clearly somewhere along the way something took a left turn, you had a thought, and acted on it.

You can't tell me that all the training is bullshit. This is stuff from Zen Buddhism and famous philosophers. Do you still use any of the technology? You can't tell me you've reverted to being the significant, righteous assholes you used to be. Please tell me you're still causing incredible communication in your family and friends, and playing big games in the world, and being really GREAT with each and every person you come across.

Another point. Everyone here is coming at this from a WIN / LOSE perspective. For us to gain such amazing benefits Landmark must be losing money somewhere, or only just scraping by.
Or they're rolling in money, and spending it on fast cars, women and cocaine, and living in million-dollar mansions. And everyone who has anything to do with Landmark is used, abused and thrown away.

I thought about this for months into my involvement with the company. It was just as I became a Course Supervisor that I decided:

"Screw it - I cannot deny the difference this work has made in my life and the lives of those around me: let's have it be WIN / WIN.

"Yeh they charge $$$ for their product, and people give willingly (ie. no-one puts a gun to your head) of their time to have this work continue in the world, and it just wouldn't work if there weren't People Who Assist...

"AND... this stuff really WORKS!! And I'm going to take full advantage of it.

"I'm going to be the best son I can be for my parents, the most supportive boyfriend, the best mate you could possibly have, the most effective employee, and someone who is CLEAR that they make a difference in others' lives."

WIN / WIN, I know, is a weird concept for most of you. Here's the thing: this technology isn't just about learning word processing, or how to balance a cheque book, its about your LIFE - something that most of us finds pretty important to us, I would guess, considering how damn significant most of you here are about yours - and any process that involves taking on your LIFE is going to involve the whole gamut of emotion and putting something at stake.

I've been through countless Landmark Forums, and every single one I can honestly say is a fun, crazy, thought-provoking, adventure, and in my clearing as an Introduction Leader and Course Supervisor, I make damn sure none of my guests or participants experience anything LESS than, at very least, an amazing experience, and if they never have anything to do with Landmark again they have at least put their foot down and taken a stand for their own life and that of those around them.

All the rest of your cynics can keep your rackets in existence, and sit on these forums gathering agreement with each other about why it doesnt work, and how bad the Landmark Enterprise is... for you life is out to "get" you, and you'll do anything to make sure it doesn't burn you.

Only now you're just *enlightened*, burned cynics.

You are full of hatred

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Former Staff: I'd be interested to talk more to any Staff. No matter what your CURRENT idea of Landmark is, I have high listening for you, and would be priveledged to have a chat, if you would be willing.

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and patronization.

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NO-ONE has coached me to come on here, this is my own personal research and discussion. I'm actually breaching policy as technically I'm communicating with the media.

Hopefully you’ll gain some perspective.

-- Caligari

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roveberg
<snip>

You can't tell me that all the training is bullshit. This is stuff from Zen Buddhism and famous philosophers.
<snip>

It doesn’t speak well for Buddhism that Scientology and est/Landmark are in significant part based on Buddhism. But then one should only look historically at the regions where Buddhism was practiced for hundreds of years. The areas in Asia such as India, Tibet and parts of China remained in poverty with a lack of social and technological progress. This is the result of detachment from one’s life. It was where the more pragmatic and rational philosophy of Confucianism predominated in China that wealth, social and technical advancement occurred. Buddhism was modified in Japan to Zen Buddhism as a social status religion to differentiate the ruling class from the commoners. Zen Buddhism continues to be used as a status symbol religion in the West for those seeking to flaunt themselves as more enlightened from commoners.

-- Caligari

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roveberg
"I'm going to be the best son I can be for my parents, the most supportive boyfriend, the best mate you could possibly have, the most effective employee, and someone who is CLEAR that they make a difference in others' lives."

... you probably mean as long as everybody joins you in Landmark. What if your family, collegues or employer start opposing you when you are trying to "share" your new possibilities, enroll them and deceptively try to recruit them in Landmark (to meet your objectives)? How many hosts have you invited to the "Introduction" or to your pseudo-"graduation" only to abandon them to manipulators, experts in hard selling and coercive influence techniques?

The fact his you are going to be the best husband and bla-bla-bla ... only if your wife supports you in Landmark and if your children do the Landmark Forum starting at 8 yo. Otherwise, "How can you be with someone who doesn't support you?" Sounds familiar??? If not, it will come with some additional coaching. It's only a matter of time before your relationship starts to break apart.

MD

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roveberg
You can't tell me you've reverted to being the significant, righteous assholes you used to be.

This was a quote directed at former staff members.

Roveberg, can't you just taste the irony? If you can't, welcome to reason 427 that so many of us hate Landmark.

Ever wonder why they teach you that everyone outside of Landmark is an asshole? They hooked you by calling you on your need to always be right. They broke you down, but then told you, "It's okay, you are right really, as long as you become one of us"

And you're calling non-Landmarkians self-righteous assholes? (Mr Pot, are you free? I've got Mr Kettle on the line for you)

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roveberg
but overall what I'm getting is that people feel really burned in some way! Especially the former Staff.

Hey, look again. Some of us have never even been to a Landmark meeting. So how'd we get burned?

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my listening of Staff is pretty high.

That's some purty garbled English right there.

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Clearly somewhere along the way something took a left turn, you had a thought, and acted on it.

Imagine! Having a thought. And then acting on it! The nerve!

Now this part just cracks me up:

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You can't tell me you've reverted to being the significant, righteous assholes you used to be. Please tell me you're... being really GREAT with each and every person you come across.

So by being really GREAT, we can assume you mean calling each and every person you come across a "significant, righteous asshole?"

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I thought about this for months into my involvement with the company. It was just as I became a Course Supervisor that I decided:

"Screw it - I cannot deny the difference this work has made in my life and the lives of those around me: let's have it be WIN / WIN.

So you were having doubts already, huh? But you managed to push them down. For now. Not to worry -- they'll bubble up again. Once they reach a rolling boil, either you'll quit or they'll toss you out.

We've all heard the rest of your post umpteen times before. All it does is show us how deeply you're in the grip of Landmark-think right now. A pity.

1) If visitors feel they have genuinely benefitted from a Large Group Awareness Training and their transformation genuine, that transformation will require no social validation. Nothing can take it away from us.

Genuine transformation frees us up to enjoy relationships without having to prosyletize. And a site like RR.com would not feel upsetting..

2)There are lots of social venues where LGAT graduates can get social support and avoid exposure to information that challenges their experience. RR.com is a research center and offers support for questioning and research--quite different from social validation. Visitors can expect to have assumptions challenged if they come to RR.com.

3) No one is forced to visit RR.com. Anyone who comes here has chosen to do so.

4) If visitors have painful emotions when reading RR.com material, they are always free to go to other venues that support their belief system. RR.com cannot control your physical environment or hinder you from reaching for your mouse.

5)If visitors dislike the information provided by RR.com but choose to remain, that is their choice.

6) No one on RR.com's message board can make decisions for you or 'convince you'. All the site does is offer information and tools for further research. Its up to the visitor to utilize those tools and face the results.

Only you can convince yourself.

Regarding Zen and Buddhism in general, when properly taught, these cannnot be practiced without a commitment to living an ethical life. Buddhism not a matter of pursuing altered states, personal empowerment or word-gaming-quite the contrary. (Genuine Buddhism teaches us to ask 'Why do I dislike the present moment and instead crave enlightenment, long to experience glamorous altered states, seek personal empowerment, and have intellectual lust for word games? Wat in me wants these things?'

Then you're invited to go more deeply and investigate how craving itself feels, and how it makes you miserable.

I'm mentioning all this to assist readers in how to tell when Buddhist verbal material is being used in a way that actually serves a Buddhist purpose--and when it does not.

A basic foundation of Buddhism is that all lives are interconnected, that our lives affect other people's lives. We cannot just be out for ourselves, because our actions really do have consequences and affect other persons, no just ourselves. Ethical behavior is a result of this understanding.

When we discover that our lives are interconnected, then treating other persons manipulatively, as objects, is no longer an option.

[i:27235b2f13]This cannot be discovered in a pressured, hectic situation in which people are heavily confrontational toward one another & treat one another as objects, as statistics to be added up in a quest for upward promotion.[/i:27235b2f13]

From the Buddhist standpoint, life when we see how our smallest actions can enhance someone else's quality of life--life can never be empty and meaningless.

Example: If you're in a long line at a cafe, with a bunch of people tense, trying to get coffee, bagels, then go to work, one way you can help is decide to order coffee instead of a labor-intensive drink like a mocha. That one tiny decision will help that line move faster.

Pick up trash as soon as you see it. The neighborhood benefits.

Life can never be empty and meaningless from this perspective.


In some Zen sects, when practitioners take the vow of lay ordination, one portion of the ceremony reads: "Even after becoming a Buddha, I promise to keep the ethical precepts.'

Thus there is no support for any argument that an awakened person can do no wrong, and is exempt from ordinary standards of behavior.

In the 1970s and earlier, main source books on Buddhism emphasized sudden enlightenment (P Kapelau Three Pillars of Zen) clever word games and paradox (eg Alan Watts and D.T. Suzuki) but did not mention much about the ethical context of Buddhism. Even the early Soto Zen authors such as Shunryu Suzuki Roshi would not have mentioned much about ethics, because they had grown up in the very disciplined culture of Japan where persons got moral training at home and then went into monasteries.

Persons active in the Human Potential movement of the Sixties and Seventies would have obtained their exposure to Zen from these authors and would have risked seeing Zen as pursuit of altered experiences, and been fascinated by its use of word games--these same individuals, with rare exceptions, were less interested in Buddhist morality--manners and personal restraint were not fashionable in those days.

It was only much later (and after some heart breaking scandals and abuses of power in Dharma communities) that Western Buddhist teachers began to recognize that teachers and students needed to be given more explicit intruction in the ethical context of Buddhism.

One book written in response to this situation was [i:27235b2f13]Being Upright [/i:27235b2f13]by Reb Anderson.

So when someone claims to use Buddhism, find out which authors they were inspired by, otherwise you may never know whether they're referring to out of date sources. Find out whether they are aware of the ethical foundation of all Buddhist practice, too.

If they try to dodge this by arguing that in ultimate reality, these matters are irrelevant--watch out.

Hello Dutch,
First and foremonst I want to congratulate you on regaining your soul.

I would like to know what happened to the people that were close to you before going into landmark? Did you keep them while participating in LE or were they pushed away? Did you reconsile after leaving and realizing what you had done?
Did you ever recruit anyone into LE, if so do you feel guilty about it now?

I hope these questions aren't to personal but I just have to knw what a person goes throught when they finaly accept the truth about landmark. I guess I still hope that one day the woman I love will "wake up".

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corboy
<snip>

Regarding Zen and Buddhism in general, when properly taught, these cannnot be practiced without a commitment to living an ethical life. <snip>

Thanks for the clarification on ethical Buddhism.

-- Caligari

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corboy
<snip>

So when someone claims to use Buddhism, find out which authors they were inspired by, otherwise you may never know whether they're referring to out of date sources. Find out whether they are aware of the ethical foundation of all Buddhist practice, too.
<snip>.

While the ethical, moderate application of Buddhism renders it non or probably less toxic, some of the concepts are irrational. The main one is shared by most religions, the disengagement, renunciation and resulting denial of apparent reality. This is most clearly stated in the idea of bringing forth out of nothing. And that emptiness and nothingness is a divine state. In philosophical logic this is the error of the reification of zero. Zero, nothing, emptiness is the lack of something. It is a conceptual construct used logically for conceptual deduction in areas like mathematics. But zero does not exist, it is not real except only as a conceptual tool. To make it point to being real and something is taking a concept not referring to reality and make it falsely existent.

To make conceptual emptiness a source of things is to imagine nothing into a something. And to make that divine is to mystify a concept that does not point to existence. It is on the edifice of such philosophical errors that Scientology, est/Landmark, etc. are built and supported. Take away these irrationalideas and Landmark as it operates will crumble.

re·i·fy
To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

From "The Disconsolation of Philosophy, Part 2: Among the Ruins", [www.godofthemachine.com] :
======================
The Platonists have really helped to divorce math and logic from reality, causing bizarre mathematical fantasies of various kinds, Xeno's Paradox, the reification of Zero, the misuse of the concept "infinity." This is what happens when the abstractions of math and logic are claimed to produce knowledge "independent" of the senses. Math is built on a simple, but universal, fact observed each and every time we open our eyes. This is the nature of axioms. But the value of the axioms is only to help coordinate our knowledge of all those other sensory facts. Math cuts its moorings and floats away to subjective parts unknown when it forgets all of this.
======================

-- Caligari

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"Yeh they charge $$$ for their product, and people give willingly (ie. no-one puts a gun to your head) of their time to have this work continue in the world, and it just wouldn't work if there weren't People Who Assist...

I originally wasn't going to respond to this programmed Landmark twit because the other posters have done such a fine job and have covered most areas. But when I read the above quote I nearly fell out of my chair and had heart failure: "NO-ONE PUTS A GUN TO YOUR HEAD???" Mr. Roveberg, [i:ed01b55b46]Landmark's recruitment policies and practices are BASED on putting a gun to your head[/i:ed01b55b46]! (figuratively of course, not literally lol).

Anyone can do a little internet research and find account after account of poor saps who attended an introductory meeting or a so-called "graduation ceremony" i.e. hard-sell session (see my thread entitled [i:ed01b55b46]Landmark's Insidious Business Practices[/i:ed01b55b46] for a description of LM's deceptive "graduation ceremony"), who have been badgered, hounded and harassed by Landmark staff and participants, both in person and by telephone, some being a target of this shameful activity for YEARS!! Indeed, friendships and relationships have been DESTROYED because of the constant pressure and badgering. I personally know of one case myself! And we both know Landmark's "courses" consist of aggressive recruitment training designed to pressure and pressure and pressure until the victim finally succumbs. And of course they have an answer for everything. For example, if you tell a Landmark recruiter you can't afford it, they are trained to say, "what's the rest of your life worth?". As a Landmark supervisor you know that' s true. And you have the nerve to say "no-one puts a gun to your head".

I would suggest in future before you choose to post half-truths on this message board you be mindful that most if not all of those who read and contribute to the Rick Ross message board are quite aware of Landmark's "philosophies" and despicable recruitment practices. In other words, we're on to you and your cult. Don't b/s us.