Hi,

I'd like to throw open a new topic on this board about Landmark Education.

Only this one will be slightly different from others. I'm really really curious as to what people have to say about Landmark, and sharing my experiences and personal thoughts on the enterprise.

I'm not interested in people gathering agreement for their point of view, and I will state my case against others' backed by the stand that I am.

I've been surfing the net for stuff trashing Landmark and out of the dozens of pages that are online I quite honestly haven't been able to find any that accurately describe the way Landmark REALLY is - wether it's because they lack enough experience of it to paint a true picture, or just that they'd like to put their slant on things - I'm not sure.

So, seriously, like no kidding, I want to hear the worst you've got to say about Landmark, because I'm on here looking for all this supposed bad stuff and sorely disappointed!

Everyone who has written anything has been at the effect of their emotions - feeling really disgruntled or cheated over something that happened as a result of something THEY did after a course, or simply were not responsible for their a) well-being, or b) choice of spending money.

See, I have a suspicion that anyone who's really PISSED OFF with Landmark Education really needs to look at who they were being in the matter that they allowed themselves to be so irresponsible, or - if they're writing about someone else - who THEY were being.

You should know what I'm talking about. And if you don't, quit whining about Landmark Education and actually DO The Landmark Forum before trying to gather agreement for how much it sucks!

That's what it seriously comes down to! - I throw the challenge out there for anyone to convincingly argue that any of the cases online fall under anything other than those categories I mentioned.

The evidence against Landmark is overwhelming.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This for-profit privately owned company has a long troubled history of bad press, complaints and personal injury claims/lawsuits.

There are reports from first-hand experiences on this message board, reports filed by journalists who completed the Forum and reports/research by those who have studied its programs in-depth.

Again and again the conclusions are the same, which is that Landmark and its courses are potentially unsafe.

Mass marathon training has a deeply troubled history of hurthing participants, based upon its flawed and potentially destructive nature.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Your "challenge" has been more than met repeatedly, but sadly people caught up in Landmark often refuse to face the facts. Instead, they almost seem like Landmark "junkies" hooked on the "feel good" euphoria they subjectively feel gets them off through their involvement.

This may be a stupid question, but why do you care whether or not people are negative about Landmark? If it's as great as you think, then common sense will eventually win out and we'll all see what fools we were for not jumping on the bandwagon. I'd think really that the best policy would be to take a low key approach, ditch the the high pressure sales techniques, and let the rest of us be impressed by the results when we see how fabulously the lives of you Landmarkians have been transformed. Then you won't be able to keep us away with the proverbial unclean stick.

It's sort of like, when my neighbour started jogging. He'd had really bad back pain previously and I was really surprised to see him hitting the pavement. I asked what had changed, and it turned out he'd seen a really good physiotherapist. I have back pain as well, so I went to the same physiotherapist after I saw the good she'd done for him. She was good, and my back is better, so I'm now recommending her to other friends. He didn't have to shove this woman down my throat, I actively sought her when I saw what a difference she had made for him. Word gets round when things really work.

Seriously, why does this bother you so much? Surely in time the results will speak for themselves, if it's all you believe it is?

(edited to correct a typo!)

Quote
roveberg
Hi,

I'd like to throw open a new topic on this board about Landmark Education.

Only this one will be slightly different from others. I'm really really curious as to what people have to say about Landmark, and sharing my experiences and personal thoughts on the enterprise.

I'm not interested in people gathering agreement for their point of view, and I will state my case against others' backed by the stand that I am.

I've been surfing the net for stuff trashing Landmark and out of the dozens of pages that are online I quite honestly haven't been able to find any that accurately describe the way Landmark REALLY is - wether it's because they lack enough experience of it to paint a true picture, or just that they'd like to put their slant on things - I'm not sure.

So, seriously, like no kidding, I want to hear the worst you've got to say about Landmark, because I'm on here looking for all this supposed bad stuff and sorely disappointed!

Everyone who has written anything has been at the effect of their emotions - feeling really disgruntled or cheated over something that happened as a result of something THEY did after a course, or simply were not responsible for their a) well-being, or b) choice of spending money.

See, I have a suspicion that anyone who's really PISSED OFF with Landmark Education really needs to look at who they were being in the matter that they allowed themselves to be so irresponsible, or - if they're writing about someone else - who THEY were being.

You should know what I'm talking about. And if you don't, quit whining about Landmark Education and actually DO The Landmark Forum before trying to gather agreement for how much it sucks!

That's what it seriously comes down to! - I throw the challenge out there for anyone to convincingly argue that any of the cases online fall under anything other than those categories I mentioned.

There are several errors you make in your post: First, set your own subjective judgment of the information provided about Landmark as to the worth of Landmark. It is not your stand that determine the truth of what occurs in Landmark but what actually exists. If people find negative results of sundered relationships, over commitment of hours in doing seminars and assisting, diverted from personal interests and goals by their involvement in Landmark that exists. It is not something that can be reframed and eliminated through subjective interpretation.

Second, it is not for you and others to determine and control people's thinking. You do not have the ability to determine that someone is not responsible for their actions. And further the right to dictate and control their values by telling them to be responsible.

Third, you have no way to determine whether someone is in a state of being "at the effect of their emotions", not "responsible" and such without investigating the people. You are predetermining the facts of reality before knowing them.

I recommend you seriously consider these errors -- reality will act against them.

-- Caligari

I am not going to even stoop down to accept your challenge I have participated in Landmark, been on staff and I know the damage they can do.

I believe that in getting hooked into conversations like this people are just going to go round in circles, someone participating in landmark can not and will not accept others views that are negative!

RRmoderater has really said it all

O.k. I will give this a try and I will apologize now, for this will be very disjointed. The negativity of LE comes not from participating but from the treatment of the person as whole. The negativity comes from the addiction that can be created by a devotee. The negativity comes from the rude and self absorbed behavior that is part of the LE experience. The negativity comes from when LE participant begins to choose LE over family, friends, work, health and is totally engulfed in the LE world, much like heroin or meth.

You stated "personal responsibility" in your post, but that is in the face of the LE doctrine. The choice "ice cream" exercise is a classic example. When you decide to do something you have thought about it, when you choose, you do so blindly of the consequences. LE encourages people to choose, not decide. It is splashed in all of the doctrine, dogma and paperwork of LE.

So, let me take this point for point. The treatment of the person/participant as a whole. Being asked and pressured into making statements that are degrading and being belittled for attaching feelings to that experience. Being told that if your father raped you and you now have difficulties with relationships with men because of it is a lie, then the participant is no longer a caring feeling person...who really needs real help. Pressuring participants, beyond reason, to bring family members to the Intro nights or Special nights is another example. There is documented experiences of being yelled at and belittled and not getting "it" for those that don't. I ask, what professor or other educator behaves this way. Do you teach a dog by yelling at him? Do you teach a child to tie their shoe by demeaning them? Why would you "teach" someone that their life experiences mean nothing by yelling and demeaning them?

The addiction or high that is created is short lived. Just ask Sonnie-Dee. Just ask me as I have watched my girlfriend come off of her high from being a coach and the crash that she is experiencing. Similar to that of crack cocaine...intense and short lived. If you watch "what the bleep" they discuss training your neuron receptors to new ways of thinking. LE trains you to a new of thinking that requires constant input from LE. The coaching sessions, although seemingly benign, are worded to make you think twice, not a bad thing. However, when you are left with that "thinking twice" you begin to question yourself. Much like an alcoholic who tries to go cold turkey and is doing o.k. until a buddy calls from the bar and tells him what a great time they are having. Usually, the addict is back at the bar. The addiction of LE is not trackable due to the shame factor and privacy clause avery participant signs. It says that the information and experiences shared are very personal and the privacy of all participants must be respected, which means yours. This tells you not to talk about it. Keep it to yourself. So, when someone from LE calls you to "chat" it is that friend who knows you so well and is asking you to come to the bar, even if they don't say it.

LE participants are self absorded and rude. This is a broad statement, but true in more ways than one. The "speak" that they use is designed to put other people on edge. So, that way when an outsider doesn't get it the speaker can put themselves on a pedastal as a teacher. They then will go on a monologue about their experiences and the education. In the end the listener looses track of what was said and is made to "be wrong". The rudeness comes from the philosophy that life is empty and meaningless. This means that all the meaning that people give to the life and communication is put there by the listener. So, if a speaker is blatantly rude, that is not that person's problem, it is the listener who has the problem. I come across this all the time with my girlfriend. When she is called on it, she becomes defensive stating that I put meaning to it, so it is my problem. Let me say this, as a person who prides themselves on great verbal skills: As a speaker you have a resposibility to the listener. This is to ensure that they are getting your words and thoughts clearly. If they don't the speaker has failed. In LE it is the other way around.

When a LE participant begins to done more costly, time consuming classes the friends and family begin to suffer. This runs right back to addicition. You have to have more and more of the drug, more often, to maintain that high. In a substance abuse issue, the family and friends suffer too. In a LE situation, the participant not only can not stop taking more and more classes, they can not stop speaking about it. Normal life has no meaning to them any more. The only life that they want is LE. Their friends are there, they are accepted there, their belief systems are not challenged their. So, LE has created the community and the modis oporondi for the participant to stop being part of family and friends.

In closing, LE claims that they you can get what ever you want out of taking LE and that they care about you. However, since they are a business their only responsibilty is to make more and more money. To continue to pad the pockets of Erhard. You state the responsibility is on the person, and normally I would agree, if that person were not "transformed". However, participants have lost that part of them that makes good decisions. They count on coaching calls and support from other LE'ers to make those choice and decisions. So, you are right ther is very little on the web about how LE is bad. There is mostly experiental discussions. However, that is what LE is, EXPERIENTIAL. Since, a Forumite can not explain clearly why the forum is so good or what goes on it makes it impossible to clearly discuss it. They would say you have to experience it to understand it. I disagree. They lack the ability and individuality to be able to explain, in their own words, what it is. Because, it is nothing but a snake oil show. They ride into town, pad the audience with plants, and ride out of town with $410.00 of your money, with no responsibility to you at all.

I suggest you read more and more. There are numerous articles, dissertations, antecdotes that discuss technology vs. technique. That LE is a product, but with no waurantee. They are irresponsibly affecting peoples lives.

foodguypdx

Quote
roveberg
Hi,

I'd like to throw open a new topic on this board about Landmark..... (snip)

Roveberg,

Most of us are bored out of our skulls by the nit-wit jargon and 25 cent ~filosofy~ concepts that ole' Weenie Erhard cadged from 1930s Napoleon Hill and 1950s L. Ron Hubbard.

Suggest you find some newbie "grads" and kick it around with them. They are the only likely ones willing to engage in the sophomoric ~conversation~ with you.


Regards,

Ellen

Quote
roveberg

I will state my case against others' backed by the stand that I am.

I have a suspicion that anyone who's really PISSED OFF with Landmark Education really needs to look at who they were being in the matter that they allowed themselves to be so irresponsible.

Your newly garbled language reflects your newly garbled thought process.

Welcome to Landmark Land.

Glam

Quote
glam

Quote
roveberg

I will state my case against others' backed by the stand that I am.

I have a suspicion that anyone who's really PISSED OFF with Landmark Education really needs to look at who they were being in the matter that they allowed themselves to be so irresponsible.

Your newly garbled language reflects your newly garbled thought process.

Welcome to Landmark Land.

Glam

Accurately described.

:>,

Caligari

Quote
roveberg
Hi,

I'd like to throw open a new topic on this board about Landmark Education.

Only this one will be slightly different from others. I'm really really curious as to what people have to say about Landmark, and sharing my experiences and personal thoughts on the enterprise.

I'm not interested in people gathering agreement for their point of view, and I will state my case against others' backed by the stand that I am.

I've been surfing the net for stuff trashing Landmark and out of the dozens of pages that are online I quite honestly haven't been able to find any that accurately describe the way Landmark REALLY is - wether it's because they lack enough experience of it to paint a true picture, or just that they'd like to put their slant on things - I'm not sure.

So, seriously, like no kidding, I want to hear the worst you've got to say about Landmark, because I'm on here looking for all this supposed bad stuff and sorely disappointed!

Everyone who has written anything has been at the effect of their emotions - feeling really disgruntled or cheated over something that happened as a result of something THEY did after a course, or simply were not responsible for their a) well-being, or b) choice of spending money.

See, I have a suspicion that anyone who's really PISSED OFF with Landmark Education really needs to look at who they were being in the matter that they allowed themselves to be so irresponsible, or - if they're writing about someone else - who THEY were being.

You should know what I'm talking about. And if you don't, quit whining about Landmark Education and actually DO The Landmark Forum before trying to gather agreement for how much it sucks!

That's what it seriously comes down to! - I throw the challenge out there for anyone to convincingly argue that any of the cases online fall under anything other than those categories I mentioned.

Have you been "coached" to do this? Honestly? Be Authentic!