Re: Eastgate Church, Georgia (David Houtsma & Roger Houtsma) Warning!
Posted by:
iwantGodswisdomnotmine
()
Date: December 11, 2011 03:56PM
Hey everyone, being one of the aforementioned "congregants" who moved from Cali to GA with the church, I just wanted to mention a few things. For starters, not one man of God through history has been perfect. King David was called a man after God's own heart after committing adultery, murdering the husband of his newly impregnated mistress, and more or less utterly failing as a parent (at least i would consider letting rape and murder go on between siblings unattended parenting failure). God uses imperfect people. If He can use a donkey to speak His message, He can use imperfect people. One thing I have yet to see mentioned here is the fruit of Roger's ministry. If you attended the church in Novato for 15 years then you no doubt witnessed first hand the many healings that took place, not the least of which was a 13 year run of continual healings of cancer. If you attended for 15 years under the "destructive leadership" you speak of, there must have been a reason you kept coming which has not been disclosed.
There also has been no mention of the slander that was involved with the church splits. There were certainly issues present, and there has been admission that everything could have been handled much better from the pastoral staff. However, the devil and the prideful flesh of man played a large role in the splits. I honestly to this day have never seen the devil take occasion through slander and gossip like he did during the largest of the splits. And frankly it isnt surprising. When a ministry is starting churches all over the world, running two bible colleges, one of which is in Congo, and has personally prayed with over a million people to be saved, the enemy is not going to sit around and just watch.
Another thing I have seen lacking in this discussion is the Word. Matthew 7:16-20 says, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." One thing that has stood out to me about Roger's ministry is that He uses more scripture in His teaching than most I have heard. He doesnt just read you a verse and give you his thoughts. He goes to 3 more scriptures examines them in context and uses the scripture to interpret the original passage. 1 Peter 2:8 talks about the Word being an offense and those who are disobedient often stumble because of it. That is in no way my underhanded attempt at saying anyone in this post is disobedient. What I am saying is that sometimes the Word brings offense and divides, but ultimately you know something by its fruit. And a deaf Muslim girl, healed at a miracle service three weeks ago, along with dozens of other miracles, says God is most certainly involved. Cause you know and I know that Roger can't heal people. Only Jesus can. Does that mean Roger is perfect... no. Does that mean that he hasnt made some mistakes in his past... no. What does it mean? It means that Jesus is at work in our church. And I want to support what Jesus is doing.
I have had some friends who have been offended because they feel Roger was not inclusive with his anointing. I grew up watching God work through him. I was the only one in my age group who came out to GA and have had quite a rough go of it interacting with Christians my age who's view of Christianity is limited to Sunday church and trying to stop sinning. I have supported Eastgate church through labor, prayer, monetary giving, etc. for over a decade now. And you know what, the whole time I have wanted to receive some sort of mentorship, really even something as simple as a personal acknowledgement that God has a specific plan for my life. But you know what, God knows what I have need of and if I am walking under the power of my own personal relationship with Him, I cannot hold any other person responsible for the successes or failures in my own life. And shame on me if I am offended because someone else's walk with God doesnt fulfill or align with my own desires.
To be honest I would ask that each of you stop and ask God what your motivation is for attacking Roger and David and their ministry. Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, or the hurts or pains that you attribute, correctly or incorrectly, to their ministry, ask God if your current posts are benefiting the Kingdom. I would respectfully remind you of what Gamaliel said in Acts 5:38-39, "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught; But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
While I appreciate the intent of this website, ultimately, Christians should be searching the scripture and testing what they have learned against the Word, rather than seeking the opinions of imperfect man for answers. After briefly browsing through the "destructive churches" section, I realized that many commentators have confused the imperfections of the Body of Christ with the idea of a cult. Ignorant, passionate, overzealous, prideful, misinformed, rude, etc. are all words that describe many believers. This doesnt make them a cult. Thats the Body of Christ.
Lastly I would like to mention what Paul said in Philippians 1:15-18, "It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice."
So regardless of the problems, real or false, why are we devoting time to slandering a place where Christ is being preached, people are being saved, and lives are being transformed. Mature followers of Christ, who study the Word for the themselves, and exercise the discernment in their Spirit, cannot be offended or mislead by man. Man is evil and the only way to keep yourself from being hurt by man is to be rooted and grounded in the Word. "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper (Psalm 1:2-3)". The only way you can avoid being hurt by man is to be yourself grounded in the Lord. The answer is not to slander and attack those who God is using, regardless of their flaws. The answer is to ground yourself in Christ and allow Him to start using you. And you can trust Him to cover the imperfections of His people. He works all things together for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28)
God bless
There also has been no mention of the slander that was involved with the church splits. There were certainly issues present, and there has been admission that everything could have been handled much better from the pastoral staff. However, the devil and the prideful flesh of man played a large role in the splits. I honestly to this day have never seen the devil take occasion through slander and gossip like he did during the largest of the splits. And frankly it isnt surprising. When a ministry is starting churches all over the world, running two bible colleges, one of which is in Congo, and has personally prayed with over a million people to be saved, the enemy is not going to sit around and just watch.
Another thing I have seen lacking in this discussion is the Word. Matthew 7:16-20 says, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." One thing that has stood out to me about Roger's ministry is that He uses more scripture in His teaching than most I have heard. He doesnt just read you a verse and give you his thoughts. He goes to 3 more scriptures examines them in context and uses the scripture to interpret the original passage. 1 Peter 2:8 talks about the Word being an offense and those who are disobedient often stumble because of it. That is in no way my underhanded attempt at saying anyone in this post is disobedient. What I am saying is that sometimes the Word brings offense and divides, but ultimately you know something by its fruit. And a deaf Muslim girl, healed at a miracle service three weeks ago, along with dozens of other miracles, says God is most certainly involved. Cause you know and I know that Roger can't heal people. Only Jesus can. Does that mean Roger is perfect... no. Does that mean that he hasnt made some mistakes in his past... no. What does it mean? It means that Jesus is at work in our church. And I want to support what Jesus is doing.
I have had some friends who have been offended because they feel Roger was not inclusive with his anointing. I grew up watching God work through him. I was the only one in my age group who came out to GA and have had quite a rough go of it interacting with Christians my age who's view of Christianity is limited to Sunday church and trying to stop sinning. I have supported Eastgate church through labor, prayer, monetary giving, etc. for over a decade now. And you know what, the whole time I have wanted to receive some sort of mentorship, really even something as simple as a personal acknowledgement that God has a specific plan for my life. But you know what, God knows what I have need of and if I am walking under the power of my own personal relationship with Him, I cannot hold any other person responsible for the successes or failures in my own life. And shame on me if I am offended because someone else's walk with God doesnt fulfill or align with my own desires.
To be honest I would ask that each of you stop and ask God what your motivation is for attacking Roger and David and their ministry. Regardless of what you have experienced in the past, or the hurts or pains that you attribute, correctly or incorrectly, to their ministry, ask God if your current posts are benefiting the Kingdom. I would respectfully remind you of what Gamaliel said in Acts 5:38-39, "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught; But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
While I appreciate the intent of this website, ultimately, Christians should be searching the scripture and testing what they have learned against the Word, rather than seeking the opinions of imperfect man for answers. After briefly browsing through the "destructive churches" section, I realized that many commentators have confused the imperfections of the Body of Christ with the idea of a cult. Ignorant, passionate, overzealous, prideful, misinformed, rude, etc. are all words that describe many believers. This doesnt make them a cult. Thats the Body of Christ.
Lastly I would like to mention what Paul said in Philippians 1:15-18, "It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice."
So regardless of the problems, real or false, why are we devoting time to slandering a place where Christ is being preached, people are being saved, and lives are being transformed. Mature followers of Christ, who study the Word for the themselves, and exercise the discernment in their Spirit, cannot be offended or mislead by man. Man is evil and the only way to keep yourself from being hurt by man is to be rooted and grounded in the Word. "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper (Psalm 1:2-3)". The only way you can avoid being hurt by man is to be yourself grounded in the Lord. The answer is not to slander and attack those who God is using, regardless of their flaws. The answer is to ground yourself in Christ and allow Him to start using you. And you can trust Him to cover the imperfections of His people. He works all things together for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28)
God bless
Re: Eastgate Church, Georgia (David Houtsma & Roger Houtsma) Warning!
Posted by:
recoveringfromchurch
()
Date: February 08, 2012 04:56AM
iwantGodswisdomnotmine,
I appreciate your taking the time to post and share your experiences. You write,
First, as I've said repeatedly, my motivation is not to "attack" anyone but rather to provide information. Second, you might be surprised to know that this is something I have prayed about....quite a bit, actually! If I can spare someone what I (and many friends) went through, I want to do that. I am not going to cite Scriptures-- not because I don't think the Bible is important-- but rather, because conversations like this can easily degenerate into "Bible wars," with each party shooting off verses to justify his position.
About 15 years ago, I could easily have written the post you submitted...so don't think that I am unaware of your perspective. One thing I would challenge is your understanding of the word slander. When I was at MCLC, slander basically meant "communication that reflects negatively on the church or the pastors." Here's the dictionary definition of slander: "a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report." (Slander actually refers to oral communication, whereas libel refers to written, but we'll skip the technicalities for now.) Okay, so, in order for a report to be slander it must be malicious (refers to the motivation), false (untrue) AND defamatory (hurts someone's reputation). By the definition of the word slander, these posts are not slander.
Let me give an imaginary example. I'm thinking about going to Super Yummy Eats for lunch so I look up the restaurant on Yelp. I find a smattering of reviews:
Obviously, I made these up, but play along for a minute, if you will. Are the negative reports slander? Is it possible that all of these people are telling the truth based on their own experiences at Super Yummy Eats? After reading these reviews, do you want to go to this restaurant?
Just because one "reviewer" didn't get food poisoning, it doesn't mean that those who say they did are lying. Sure, their food might taste good, but if even a portion of the patrons become sick (some with lasting damage) after eating there, why patronize that restaurant when there are plenty of healthier restaurants in town?
I appreciate your taking the time to post and share your experiences. You write,
Quote
To be honest I would ask that each of you stop and ask God what your motivation is for attacking Roger and David and their ministry.
First, as I've said repeatedly, my motivation is not to "attack" anyone but rather to provide information. Second, you might be surprised to know that this is something I have prayed about....quite a bit, actually! If I can spare someone what I (and many friends) went through, I want to do that. I am not going to cite Scriptures-- not because I don't think the Bible is important-- but rather, because conversations like this can easily degenerate into "Bible wars," with each party shooting off verses to justify his position.
About 15 years ago, I could easily have written the post you submitted...so don't think that I am unaware of your perspective. One thing I would challenge is your understanding of the word slander. When I was at MCLC, slander basically meant "communication that reflects negatively on the church or the pastors." Here's the dictionary definition of slander: "a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report." (Slander actually refers to oral communication, whereas libel refers to written, but we'll skip the technicalities for now.) Okay, so, in order for a report to be slander it must be malicious (refers to the motivation), false (untrue) AND defamatory (hurts someone's reputation). By the definition of the word slander, these posts are not slander.
Let me give an imaginary example. I'm thinking about going to Super Yummy Eats for lunch so I look up the restaurant on Yelp. I find a smattering of reviews:
Quote
Best. Food. EVER! Four stars!
Quote
Warning! Don't go there! My girlfriend and I went there for lunch last month. The food tasted okay, but within hours, we were violently ill. We both ended up in the ER with food poisoning.
Quote
Blech. The food is disgusting, and I had an upset stomach after eating there.
Quote
I love this place! The owner is really nice, and he always gives me free appetizers.
Quote
I almost died because of this restaurant. I got a severe form of e coli, ended up in the ICU and now have permanent kidney damage.
Quote
Don't listen to the negative reports! These people are LIARS! This restaurant is great, and the owners would never do anything to hurt the people who eat there.
Obviously, I made these up, but play along for a minute, if you will. Are the negative reports slander? Is it possible that all of these people are telling the truth based on their own experiences at Super Yummy Eats? After reading these reviews, do you want to go to this restaurant?
Just because one "reviewer" didn't get food poisoning, it doesn't mean that those who say they did are lying. Sure, their food might taste good, but if even a portion of the patrons become sick (some with lasting damage) after eating there, why patronize that restaurant when there are plenty of healthier restaurants in town?
Re: Eastgate Church, Georgia (David Houtsma & Roger Houtsma) Warning!
Posted by:
stan_black
()
Date: November 21, 2015 03:06AM
Why not. The Houtsmas ran a cult of personality. I remember clearly Marin Christian Life Church in the 1980s. David and Nathan were school mates at their fathers private school; an extension of the church. I pity they were caught in the snare their father and mother made for them. Very unusual.
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