I know what you mean about not being able to talk to them. My daughter just argues, as if arguing would attract someone to want to become like them or embrace their Christianity. She and her husband have been "working on" another couple who are unsaved, and this couple gets upset about being preached to whenever they are with them. The thought occurred to me that my daughter and son-in-law could be the reason they don't accept Christ.

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Mark Scheiderer
BJW -

Why does MacA have to "MacArthurize" everything? IMO, and the opinion of others I've talked to, it's like he sees himself as separate from the rest of us sinners and he has the ability to come up with his own version of the Gospels!
The NO-thetic Counselling oversteps it's bounds. It's almost like the counselors are human "Holy Spirits".

Exactly. They have their own Bible, their own commentaries about the Bible, their own view of salvation, their own psychotherapy, and now even their own Gospel.

The counseling thing is what stops many from coming forward about their experiences. You sign so many waivers when you receive the counseling that its hard to keep straight what they are allowed to share about you and what they aren't. They badger so much out of you that its hard to remember what all is said in many of these confessions, and I noticed much that I said was embellished upon when I started doubting the doctrine. They were very effectively at silencing me, and I'm sure others have been silenced in similar ways. It will be interesting how the courts rule regarding the priest/pentitent confession law. It should be illegal for them to share anything you say, even among their own members. I have a feeling this court ruling will affect all cults that use confessions.

A favorite technique they like to use is get you to tell the same story over and over, and then take any "discrepancies" to prove you are lying. If you doubt MacArthur's Gospel, they get you to tell what your view of the Gospel is, so they can pick it apart using MacArthur's canned responses. I learned the hard way that anything you say in these sessions can later be used against you when they later retaliate against you when you leave. They don't want the truth getting out.

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Hierarchy is the word that leaps to mind with many things MacArthurish. Where do he and others associated with him get the idea that they are "lords" over the flock of God?
I hope somebody starts doing an in depth study of "Lordship Salvation" and other Unbiblical stuff that MacA and his ilk promote.
What REALLY scares me and troubles me is that many who are leaving the apostate churches in the U.S. are turning to MacA and accepting everything he says and does. After awhile you can't talk to them. They are literally like cultists. I talked to one counter-cult ministry about this and they stated that some of MacA's followers/fans would "follow him off a cliff!"
The man and his enterprises are NOT balanced.

This is true. It is definitely a cult. They demand unquestioning obedience. You are slowly indoctrinated, at first you are not told what any of the unique beliefs are that set them apart from Christiainity. Mind control is used, which is what the counseling sessions are for. Large amounts of money are taken from followers, particularly in the college and courses, and books. They believe you must believe Lordship Salvation to be saved, either by accident or intentionally through GCC and affiliates. They retaliate against you for doubting them or leaving. You are not permitted to associate with those that leave. You are heavily disciplined or shunned for disobeying them. I think any Sociologist would agree with me that these are the characteristics of a cult.

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Teacher -

God bless you and your Mother. I'll have to remember you in prayer.
Godspeed to your upcoming article.

Mark

I too will keep you in my prayers.

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mhbm
I know what you mean about not being able to talk to them. My daughter just argues, as if arguing would attract someone to want to become like them or embrace their Christianity. She and her husband have been "working on" another couple who are unsaved, and this couple gets upset about being preached to whenever they are with them. The thought occurred to me that my daughter and son-in-law could be the reason they don't accept Christ.

When I was in the cult I did some door-to-door witnessing with them (though I would usually have the person with me do all the talking, as even then I didn't like how they witnessed to people).

It is my opinion that they drive away more people from Christ than they lead to Him. I often heard them compare becoming a Christian to joining the military, if you're not ready to do everything it takes to become a Christian then you are not ready to have "Genuine Saving Faith." Simply hearing the Gospel and accepting Christ into your life/heart is never enough. Also, confrontation is highly emphasized in Lordship Salvation. Even if a person accepts Christ, they will be constantly confronted afterwards to repent of any sins that may be in their life.

I think they would be more successful with people if they would tone it down a little bit. I hope you are successful in getting your daughter out of this group someday. No man who would build a museum to himself should be trusted to preach the Gospel. The fact that this didn't make people wake up and leave shows how powerful the mind control is.

quote- (A favorite technique they like to use is get you to tell the same story over and over, and then take any "discrepancies" to prove you are lying.)

Hmm...they do that in North Korean prison camps too.
Also- police interrogations.
Oh, and the secular cults too.

James 3:17
But the wisdom from above is first pure,
then peaceable, gentle, reasonable,
full of mercy and good fruits,
unwavering, without hypocrisy.

Maybe John Macarthur and his clones haven't
studied James yet?

I cannot consider
John Macarthur a Christian.

"By their fruits you shall know them."
I've only seen destruction from his ministry.

Yes- many people think they are "growing"
but what they doing, is getting slowly poisoned
by the false doctrine of "saved by works."
And those works are heavy indeed.

I hope that court case stops a lot of garbage in these churches.

Teacher, my apologies for not being in touch
I will double up prayers for you and your family.
We have been way too busy trying to make a living
these days.


gtw?

[Proof reading has begun. The site has an address and is being built. Slowly but surely we will get information for those who want to know. The others will die in their own selfishness and arrogance. Keep helping me!
No worries gtw? - I know I am in your thoughts!
Thanks mark :)

I need strength!

GTW -

What court case are you talking about?

Mark

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Mark Scheiderer
GTW -

What court case are you talking about?

Mark

Mark:
The Church of Scientology is being sued by a parishoner for being abused while a part of the Sea Org. A side court case has resulted from this because they are wanting to bring confessional folders of people from CoS into the case. The court is being asked to rule on the "Priest/Penitant" Law that currently exists in California.

Many cults (Scientology, Lordship Salvation, Catholocism, etc.) have confession sessions where a parishoner must confess their sins to a church official. Some cults keep a record of everything that is said by the parishoner during the confessional, and some have accused cults of using these items later to retaliate against the person if they ever decide to leave the cult or tell anything that they experienced.

What happened to me in Lordship Salvation was very similar. I signed waivers (some were pretty lengthy contracts) not realizing what all I was signing. I do know the suicide/injury waiver was in there, but I'm not sure if Nouthetic Counselors are able to share the confessional information they collect during confession sessions. Usually a so-called independent "3rd party" is present during the session, notes are taken, and the two people badger a confession out of you for about an hour. That's how it was done to me anyway, and was part of the reason I had to undergo psychotherapy after leaving GCC.

During my time there it was normal for them to share things with other members, student life division, as well as church officials. It is part of the reason I stayed silent about what I experienced there, because I was threatened that they would share details about me (some of which they stretched the facts quite a bit) if I did not keep quiet.

However the courts rule in this "priest/penitent" priviledge case, even though it is resulting from the Scientology case, I believe it will still affect all other cults that use confessionals. If it can be proven that a priviledge exist and neither party can share information, or if only the parishoner can share info, we may see an outpouring of people coming forward with information about being abused while inside a cult, or if they rule neither party can share info, we may see very little negative info about cults in the future.

Either way, it will be interesting to see, and I hope it prompts more people hurt by any cult to come forward without fear. The link to the article about the court case on Tony Ortega's website can be found in my post toward the bottom of page 26 of this thread.

bjw -

If you signed anything, you have a legal right to obtain a copy of what you signed, as proof.

Mark

Hi Everyone,

Here's an article on breaking sessions,

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Breaking sessions are one of the methods used by extreme groups as a way of identity destruction .
Bombard them with accusations....
The basic scenario is to isolate the person and to start accusing them of various transgressions. It may start with small things that is easy for them to admit and then steadily escalate with admonishments of breaking important values and even being fundamentally bad and shameful.
This process may well be done by a number of people. The more people and the higher up in the group they are, the more effective this method becomes. Few people can ignore accusations flying at them from all angles and especially from people they have grown to love and respect.
Keep going until they crack....
The point of this session is to push them past a cracking point, similar to when a person has a nervous breakdown and the session may continue well past the point where the person is huddled in a fetal position, rocking back and forth and weeping uncontrollably.
In doing this, the group wears down their sense of identity, in order to effectively destroy their personality and makes them flee from who they are. Thus this method is literally a way of character assassination.
Remake them...
When the person has cracked, the next step is to approach them with kindness, to show that they are now forgiven and accepted again. They may be hugged and patted. This is done by a senior member of the group. This casts the group back into the kind and loving frame and offers a lifeline to the broken person, who of course grasps at this straw. Very gratefully, they now listen to and accept what this person has to say.
In this way, they are now remade in the shape of a conforming member of the group who is totally obedient to senior group members. ~ End Quote

~ THIS is what John MacArthur -ites do for "church discipline"

And if you defy them - you are labeled a wolf
or shunned. There needs to be a law against this
incredible evil.
It's not counseling or discipline,
it's just abuse, they only difference is they don't
grab you off the street and keep you in chains in the
basement -

They imprison you with the fear of losing
your salvation. Despicable.

To anyone reading this post still in a John Macarthur
influenced church, Run! Run! Run for your lives!!
If it feels weird...It Is Weird! And gets Weirder!

gtw?

What gtw described is pretty accurate.

Also, Mark, thanks for the info. It's good to know that any contract can be obtained. That's at least one good thing on the member's side, no matter which way the courts decide to rule on this law.