Do you currently attend TPCWOC and have questions and/or concerns?
Do you have information that may be valuable to those who do have questions?
Do you love TPC, and want to clear the air?
Do you value two way conversation and dialog?
Are you okay with having your thoughts and opinions challenged?

I happen to think that we are all here for the same reason...we want the truth. So, lets talk about the issues. Lets bring it all out into the light.

**Lets also remember to play nice. To consider our words carefully. To speak in truth and in love. To consider others feelings, and understand that they have value. And above all, to bring glory to Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

I guess this answered my question of whether we need to start a new thread.

Thank you Brokenhearted for starting this process for us. I hope the rest of the posters will come here for truly open debate of the issues.

I look forward to what this thread will bring.

VNM

Well, I may as well jump right in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE7RSZDndKw

Please watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6qNCIDtyCw&feature=related

I think that we should give the moderator the benifit of the doubt. It is possible there was a misunderstanding on the part either GW or the moderator.

I personally know GW and can attest that he has incredible character. I also know that he would be the first to admit if he made a mistake and also to accept forgivness from someone, especially from the moderator.

It would be wise to give him a chance to explian his line of reasoning and wait to hear both sides before judging to quickly.

---

Having said that, I think it would be great if we had a forum which allowed members of turningpoint to ask questions about what we believe. I am sure that there are pastors from tp who are reading this and we should try to make this forum a place where they can safely ask us difficult questions.

We also should be a aware that just because they come across to us as "Defensive" or "angry" doesn't mean that they intend to or are. From thier point of vew we are attacking the person and church that may have been a very influencial part of them coming to christ. While someone from tp would be tempted to accuse us of "just being bitter," we shouldn't mistake someone from TP's attempts to reach out and discover the truth as "attacking."

I believe this thread will be appropriate for open debate. Thank you Broken Hearted.

I would encourage EVERY poster to take the 3 minutes necessary to read the FORUM RULES and then seek to abide by these rules (myself included).
Please see the link below:

[forum.culteducation.com]

TPR

To whom it may concern:

"GodsWarrior" broke the rules and therefore was banned from the board.

The rules are easily read and explicitly stated.

Some of "GodsWarrior's" potential submitted posts read like veiled threats and he claimed to be part of TP "security."

Over the years many group loyalists have come to this board with the purpose of disrupting it and causing problems.

"GodsWarrior" fit the familiar pattern.

Hello, this is my first post. I might tell my story later in the "tell your story thread" but I would rather start here and hopefully see some answers from TP.

I hope people from TP see this thread as what it is. An open thread to debate issues. I really hope those from TP will post here openly with there replies to some of these issues.

Here is some issues that have been on my mind for a long time the first one being something that has been a hard one for me because I think it is the most important one when it comes to an establishment that is non-profit and takes donations and releases those funds towards salaries, projects, etc. And when I say this is a hard one for me, it's because like many I really trusted those in charge of these things at TP, and it has been difficult seeing that I may have been deceived in this area.

Here is some of the issues I would like to see some debate on If you don't mind me taking some initiative. Keep in mind I'm not the most educated in these matters and am seeking truth and please don't be afraid to correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Accountability - How does an a non-profit corp. hold themselves accountable without conflict of interest issues under these circumstances:
Of the 7 Elders, 2 are the head pastor and his wife, 2 are the 2nd head pastor and his wife, and 2 others have wives that are on staff and paroll? (seems like only one elder of the seven can cast a vote without any conflict of interest)((I'm basing this off of TP's website where it shows the elders, and of personal knowledge that two of the elder's wives are on staff or at least were on staff for the years that I attended.))

2. Biblical or not? - If the church teaches that the direct, authoritative voice of God is the Bible and we are to compare/weigh everything with Scripture. And Paul writes in 1Timothy 2:12-13 "I do not permit women to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve." NIV, in 1Timothy 3:2 "Now the overseer must be above reproach, husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach," NIV, and in 1Timothy 3:8 "Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain." NIV. Then how can this church have women as pastors, elders and deacons and remain Biblical? (please read all of 1Timothy 3, I only wrote certain versus to keep it short)

I'm not trying to point fingers or imply wrong doings, I believe these topics can have possible sound answers. I am only seeking some light on these matters hopefully not just from those who have left TP. I would like to see both sides, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a debate. I also think TP has a good chance of defending their stand on these topics in this particular thread. I don't understand why Pastor Mike or someone can't get on here and explain things, I have to admit I'm not up to date on the latest post but I don't see them on this thread yet. I thought these issues could be a good start because the elders are part of this church's foundation of administration and accountability.

Any ways thank you for this opportunity, sorry I have not introduced myself in "tell your story" lets just say I'm working up to it.

If you are not sure if you have been deceived then it may be good to simply ask them about finances and what has been done with the money. Better yet, ask Mike if he would consent to an audit.
This would answer your question of doubt in them if the audit was done and it indicated not abuse of monies.
But a better indicator would be his reaction to the question. I bet I know what his reaction would be.

Of course, you may not wish to take my advice at all considering who I am, Mike and Cyndi's "enemy".

Mr. Smith,

I hadn't checked this thread for a while, but I was wondering if you'd had any answers to your very valid questions.

Some biblical examples that have been used to defend women being able to teach or lead--Priscilla and Aquila (Priscilla was the wife of Aquila) teaching/instructing Apollos; Deborah as a judge during Israel's early years settling the land of Canaan; and Miriam, Moses's sister, being a leader and prophetess.

Some have pointed out that Paul was giving instruction to Timothy as he helped encourage the Gentile churches, where women were not versed in Scripture and had habits of usurping their husbands' authority and of not being quiet (during church gatherings) on topics about which they had little understanding and of disrespecting leadership. Paul's teaching on this topic would be logical, then, for women who had not learned God's patterns of relating between men and women and of mutual respect and male headship in the home and the church.

I grew up in a church where women could not preach or be elders but could teach children and could "speak" from the pulpit (such as missionary women or a woman giving a testimony or announcement). A woman could even hold the office of deacon. It was never really an issue because women were free to lead in various ministries as long as they were under the headship or leadership of the men (elders/pastor/husband). If one takes even this more lenient point of view, which is less strict than many churches interpret the passage you cite, Cyndi is still out of bounds because she co-leads with Mike, rather than being under his headship as leader of the church. (And just for the record, in case any leaders are reading this and thinking that based on previous posts I am opposed to authority: I am NOT opposed to authority; I am, however, opposed abuse of authority and authoritarian models of leadership set up in the church that are not taught in Scripture.)

But whether Cyndi is in an unbiblical position of power and authority by co-pastoring seems of less importance than the abuses that occur under hers and Mike's leadership. And the finances are a great place to start investigating since dollars and cents are not abstract, but concrete, and an audit of the church's finances can yield solid, emperical evidence of the entitlement mindset we've all seen--a mindset that feeds the rest of the power trip and the abuses that are happening in the wake of it.

The longer the church and (previous) elders wait to call for this audit, though, the longer Mike and Cyndi have to "cook the books."