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whatajoke
tellthetruth and brokenhearted you guys are bringing up old issues that have been dealt with especially on the RLC forum. Maybe it was Cyndis phoniness that someone was trying to convey. I could certainly give you all the attributes I saw in Rose that made her phone and some of it conisted of the way she spoke and acted. Let people be. If Cyndis voice sucks then it sucks and it matters because she is not putting quality into the ministry nor does she know where her gifts are. And as for the whole rahrah talk from tell the truth it would be better served in the locker room at halftime at a high school footbal game. You make it sound like pastora dnd churches are not capable of hurting and spiritual abusing people. Wake up! They can when they elevate themselves to put authority overy your lives. It happens in work situations all the time. When it is work do we say it is the workers fault that the boss abused them. All the the arguments you give are shallow, insensitive, andlack substance. If I saw a boa constrictor and he was going after my kids I would catch or destroy the boa consticter.

People in churches, including pastors, cannot be elevated unless the people elevate them. I do understand that some are more vulnerable than others. My point is this, until the people in churches, and not just TPC step up and realize that in the end they are not victims but willing participants, they will not find freedom. They will just be victims. I realized that it is a process and will take time for people to heal. Personally, I don't care for football and I have never been to RLC or it's forum and don't know who Rose is, nor do I care. Your post is the pot calling the kettle black and could be viewed as hurtful . I have the right to my opinion and this forum is a place for opinions and not personal attack. I went to TPC and I was hurt. But, I could not heal until I took responsibility for my own lack of judgment and sinfulness and pride and self-centeredness. I wanted to be accepted by people, rather than focusing my attention on the Almighty. When I realized this truth, it set me free. I am not angry at TPC or it's leaders. I am just surprised by how far their church has gone out of balance. TPC had some wonderful qualities, however, the leadership has taken a very wrong turn and it has hurt people. Whatajoke, I'm not sure what your point of posting on this forum is, but you are entitled to express your opinions without being judged by others as am I.

Another thought........

I've heard several people say that they are just waiting it out. They've been told by Mike or Cyndi to just wait and see, to learn more about it, etc. I think that this is a dangerous *philosophy* to adopt. I would ask, just WHAT are you waiting for? Who are you learning from? How much deeper entrenched will you become before you realize the truth? Will it be to late to get out by then?

I understand just how difficult it is to leave. But, how much harder will it be in 6 months, a year, two years down the road, when you are even more invested in the all encompassing life that is Turning Point? How many more of your resources will you invest to build the kingdom, that is doomed to fail unless it changes it's course?

The church of Acts:

Acts 2:42
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer........
Verse 45
Selling their posessions and goods, they gave to anyone as they had need.

I would ask,
Did they devote themselves to the apostles? No, to the teaching (the truth).
Did they seel everything to build the church? No, they sold everything to meet the needs of those who NEEDED it?

Turning Point claims to be the modern day church of Acts? How does it compare?

Brokenhearted, Good point. All Apostles must first be prophets. So, what is a false prophet?

Here is my low-down.

We can't determine a false prophet by....

1) His works (Matt 7:15-23) Even false prophets will prophesy, cast out demons, and work wonders.
2) Whether he is perfect or not. Hello, God spoke through a donkey.
3) What they claim. (Amos 7:25) i.e. Zedekiah and Hananiah claimed to be prophets but were deceived.
4) They come in Jesus name. (Deut 18:20) (Jeremiah 14:14) "For prophets will presume to speak for God, but He did not send them."

A TRUE FALSE PROPHET

1) Will claim peace, peace and announce safety when there is none. (Jeremiah 14:13)

2) Will speak for money. (Micah 3:5 - 11) "As for the prophets who lead my people astray, if one feeds them, they proclaim 'peace'; if he does not, they prepare to wage war against him." (2 Peter 2:1-3) "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up."

3) Will lack or distort Biblical truth. (Isaiah 30:10) (Romans 16:18) "Good works and fair speech deceives the hearts of the simple." (Ephesians 5:6) "Let no one deceive you with vain words."

4) Will have Bad fruit - (Galations 5:22) (Matt 7:17-18) (Luke 6:43)

5) Will be proud, not humble. (Matt 21:5)

6) Will point to self or to the world, not Jesus. Jesus pointed to God. The Holy Spirit Points to Jesus. A true prophet will always lead people closer to Jesus, not the world.

7) Will lack calling for repentance and instead tell people what they want to hear. (Ezekial 13:10) (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

2 tell the truth? help us out here, we are trying to understand your reasoning. are you saying that leaders bare no responsibility? according to your post leaders are blown arround like leaves. again putting the responsibility on the ones following the leader. are you making an excuse for your leaders?
if you for the truth then why tell us that you have NOT looked into the allogations that have been tabled here regarding your church and RLC?

tell the truth....

I can see your point, and we do all hold some responsibilty for following false teaching. I do think though, that you are underestimating the power of persuasion that is in the group. Or the fear that is invoked when someone is repeatedly and consistantly told that they must do or give more in order to please the Lord, or to insure their salvation.

I am concerned that you are dismissing the responsibility that the leaders have. They are knowingly following and teaching false doctrine, they are telling lies to cover it up, they are exploiting those that they should be caring for, and do it all in the name of Jesus. You are of course welcome to your opinions, but I have to honestly say, that blaming the victim doesn't change a thing, but it hinders progress. Even men and women that were mature in the faith have been *victims* of the deceit. They've been hurt, they've been abused.....

I appreciate all of you for taking time to post here. Each of you have experienced the poisoned fruit of Turning Point in one way or another. Each of you are on a journey to find Truth; Each of you are at a different place in that journey. I respect you for taking time to post here. Some point to details like change of personal appearance, some point to the gain of material goods; others point to teachings. The point being that each of us are exploring how it was we were deceived for a time and what "signs" or flags should have caused pause for thought.

Your experience is valid. How you came to the conclusion you came to is a valid process. I may not always agree with your tone or choice of words but I will stand up for your right to express yourself as best as is possible here on this forum.

I believe what I hear totellthetruth saying is that each of us is responsible for our own choices and behavior. Each of us, at one point, chose willingly, to sit under Mike and to hear his teaching. And each of us, at another point, chose to question what we heard and what we saw. I do not hear totell excusing the leaders, to the contrary, the leaders are to be held to a higher standard. Totell the truth, I trust you realize, that each person here has accepted responsibility for their choices; I hope you also realize that by telling their stories, each person here is helping others who read these posts, to come to see how they too are responsible for choosing to sit at the feet of a false apostle; to idolize the false apostle; to give sacrifice to the false apostle.

When people say,"You should talk to apostle Mike before posting here", my question is, why? Some have testified that they have talked to Mike and Mike has minimized their concerns at best, and at worst, have turned their concerns against those who bring them to Mike. I am sure Pastor Jackie could testify to this if she so chose. I am sure others who post here can testify to this as well. Then there is the challenge of Mike's be approachable. Many here have tried to approach Mike, only to be turned aside. So, Forgiveness, I encourage you, by all means seek to speak to Mike, but don't allow not speaking to Mike to invalidate your experience.

And finally, some are being told to just, "wait and see". Yes, you can sit back and take a wait and see approach. That approach is a "looking forward to the future" approach. If you take that approach I encourage you to set a date certain. For example: "We will wait and see for 30 days."

Secondly, I would make a list of items that you are, "Waiting to see". For example, In 30 days I am looking to see a change in the heart of Mike, from that of arrogance to one of humility. In 30 days I am waiting to see a confession by Mike regarding the false teachings he has engaged in and a plan that lays out how he will guard himself from teaching errant teachings in the future. In 30 days I am waiting to see a public accounting of the church finances that show how the money is used-including pastor salaries.

And third, I would also take a "look back" on past actions and behaviors. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Just my thoughts

TPR

Broken hearted - Just found some scriptural evidences to help us determine a false apostle. They are similar to that of a false prophet, but thought I would post it anyway. Someone else may be wondering.

False Apostles and How to Recognise them

Paul wrote: "For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. To our shame I say that we were too weak for that!" (2 Corinthians 11:20,21)

After Paul's departure, the Corinthian church had been infiltrated by false apostles who claimed to be better than Paul. These men claimed to be so good and so worthy, that unlike Paul, they required financial reward for their ministries. While Paul was meek and humble, these men, false apostles, seemed so powerful.

They bring people into bondage.
False apostles just want their ego needs to be met by the church. So they set standards which originate in their own thinking or worse yet in demonic deception, and impose these standards on believers as conditions of belonging. Adding law to law, they could get believers to a point where they felt so guilty, so unworthy and therefore so much more in need of the "great men" who could tell them what they had come to believe was the "narrow way" that leads to life.

False apostles tend to lay a lot of emphasis on people submitting to and obeying THEM.

The word of false apostles becomes law to the poor believers who are enslaved by them.
Such false apostles will introduce legalistic requirements outside of the Scriptures, and demand adherence. If not, well, its "my way or the highway!". They tend to exclude people who do not bow and scrape to them, so that these people may be powerfully pressured to come into line, so that they can enjoy the acceptance of their friends in the church. In extreme cases, false apostles will claim that they and their group alone are the true heirs of the biblical covenants, so that all those who do not submit to their judgments are ipso facto "outside of Christ", "lost". Both Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses (so-called) are examples of this kind of dangerous nonsense.

They exalt themselves.
Anyone who attempts to step into the office of an apostle through self-will, ambitious striving or clever politicking is in line to become a false apostle. Such a person "transforms himself into a minister of righteousness". "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ".
A person may be a Christian, and very talented and impressive outwardly, but if they yield to the sin of pride and start to position themselves in order to draw disciples after themselves, they become false. Sometimes it seems we have a mixture of the true and the false in the same person. We become false when we seek to appoint ourselves to roles that neither Jesus nor the Spirit of Truth have assigned.

They Take from You.
They used manipulative tactics to get the people to give them money. Jesus taught us that great example of washing the disciples' feet (John 13) In Matthew 25, Jesus identified with the hungry, the naked, the sick and the ones in prison, and not with the pastors and church leaders. When we serve needy Christians, that is when we are serving Christ the most. When we serve the powerful in order to advance in the hierarchy, we are still serving our own ambitions.

They boast of being Apostles.
"But what I do, I will continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles..." (2 Corinthians 11:12,13).
False apostles will boast of things so that they may be regarded as being apostles. There is a false boasting which is common to those who want to be regarded as apostles and simply don't resemble or demonstrate Christ as a true apostle does.

False Boasts of Church Planting.
Helping church planters is not "planting the church". Sometimes its hard to know how many churches a person has really planted. There is a big difference between catalysing a church plant through evangelism and a three day seminar, and doing the hard yards month after month on the ground with baby Christians. "Deceitful workers" is one description of false apostles. I can just imagine the false teachers who came to Corinth and Galatia claiming that they, not Paul, were the true fathers of the church.

Thank you TPR,

You are right, I do know what to be weary of and thank you for expressing concern. As i think and i will be the first to aknowledge that P. Mike has done far more than me in my life in helping other people, but i think that makes all these issues even more important.

PS. Please pray for me as i have talked to several people who have been shoved aside, i will come prayed up and full of knowledge... This is not going to be some tea party.

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BraveHeart
2 tell the truth? help us out here, we are trying to understand your reasoning. are you saying that leaders bare no responsibility? according to your post leaders are blown arround like leaves. again putting the responsibility on the ones following the leader. are you making an excuse for your leaders?
if you for the truth then why tell us that you have NOT looked into the allogations that have been tabled here regarding your church and RLC?

No BraveHeart not at all. I belive the leaders bear a great responsibility and will receive due justice from God Himself. FYI TPC is not my church. I haven't attended there for months and go to a church now that actually has a large number of gray hairs. My main point is that for the people who have been hurt, there is hope and a way to come into healing. The first step is finding out what sin existed in me that left me so open to cultish conditioning. I can't do anything about cult leaders others than inform which is what this forum is doing. My perspective is just one perspective. I agree with what has been said in this forum about the deception of the leaders and followers (who like TPC and agree with the vision of the leaders). I just believe that the Holy Spirit is larger than the leaders and that we all have the ability and opportunity to hear him. But some people don't know what that sounds like and mistake it for rebellion i.e. if the leaders of a church are telling you one thing, and the Holy Spirit is prompting something different inside of you.

I know that the allegations noted in this forum are true and I believe people have been hurt, myself included. Leaving TPC brought about a detox for me from the over amp of feeling and emotion that is manufactured at TPC. I get it BraveHeart and Im trying to understand why you folks don't get what I am saying? Saying that you can heal and overcome this sort of abuse shouldn't be seen as Tell the Truth not believing the allegations. I do believe them from first hand experience.

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Brokenhearted
tell the truth....

I can see your point, and we do all hold some responsibilty for following false teaching. I do think though, that you are underestimating the power of persuasion that is in the group. Or the fear that is invoked when someone is repeatedly and consistantly told that they must do or give more in order to please the Lord, or to insure their salvation.

I am concerned that you are dismissing the responsibility that the leaders have. They are knowingly following and teaching false doctrine, they are telling lies to cover it up, they are exploiting those that they should be caring for, and do it all in the name of Jesus. You are of course welcome to your opinions, but I have to honestly say, that blaming the victim doesn't change a thing, but it hinders progress. Even men and women that were mature in the faith have been *victims* of the deceit. They've been hurt, they've been abused.....

Perhaps my opinion is a rush to healing for the folks on this forum. sorry, no meant offense in my postings. I totally agree that leadership bears responsibility. The reason TPC caters to young people is that they are easily lead astray and susceptible to all kinds of influence that may not be healthy. If they come from devastating past living conditions such as abuse neglect, etc, they are even more apt to follow blindly. But if you don't at least let people know they don't have to stay in the trauma, and give them a way to do that, healing is in jeopardy. That is my main point behind saying that the followers must also take responsibilty lest it happen again in their lives. Myself included.