Braveheart

Let me also say this.....When in your entire ministry you have been provided the luxury of a safe, abuse free place to serve you build up a sence of security and maybe even ignorance about the world outside the one you live in. I have never been exposed to most of the undercurrent of minipulation that you are defining in your posts and not even heard of many of the issues that you are pationate about. This is not to excuse me from anything but it is to try to get you to see that it is quite possible that it never occured to me to think a pastor would actually want to have power or need to be an Apostle. My ministry has been an excercise of trying to give authority away and play on a team. Oh I have always been a strong leader and I love to get my way but I want input and have ask the Lord a hundred times to let someone else lead....I do not want to be an Apostle or a Prophet or even a Pastor. I just want to be apart... This has always been my perspective... I have always said when talking to young men about ministry that I am always careful with people that say they want to lead....I truly think they mis understand the idea and the responsibility of leadership...Saying I want to lead is like saying KICK ME... USE ME .... EVALUATE me.

Because I carry this perspective it never occured to me to look with a criticle eye at a church where there was a pastor from a fairly sound Bible College that had served well in other churches as a youth guy. I did not evaluate I just excepted and trusted. You might call me ignorant for that but it is who I am...or I should say who I was. In some ways this peocess has changed me in ways that I do not like but I am confident that GOd opening my eyes to the importance of being a bit more catious. At this point I have to take a careful look at everything. I did not even think about the issues with the 4S booklet and that is on me... There could easily be other things that need adjusting....and I will look at those and am open to your critique if you offer it in love. You may not believe it man but I want what you want and that is what God wants. That is the bottom line for me! If at the end of the day you show me that he wants something other than what I am doing .... I'm there! But you are going to have to show me.... because I have not come to my theology lightly or without great prayer and consideration.

Calvin

I'm sorry if any of my posts seemed accusing, I was just wanting to hear the truth and its true it set a person free. you mentioned fear, and I had just read the other day how we are no longer slaves to fear, to me following fears directions is following the enemies directions, in the world you can suceed at this for a while but in Gods house it can only lead to distruction. so far you seem to be the only one who has come forth (who hasnt left yet) and speak exactlly how you saw things. the other leaders seem to want to keep things vague and never take responsibility for their fear of standing up. or just stick their heads in the sand and hope it all just goes away.

Abraham is the spiritual father of both Jewish and Gentile believers. He set the precedent of salvation through faith alone. Verse 12 is much along the lines of Jesus' response to the Pharisees, "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things." John 8:39,40 and goes on to tell them, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44 And as Paul said earlier, "a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly" Rom 2:29a Very few who identify themselves as "Jews" today are in fact Jews, let alone the false claims of Muslims being God's people who even more so mimic their father the devil. But this is also a warning for alleged Christians who call Jesus Lord without intending to do what he says.

Thank you Calvin for your post. I for one can attest to much of the info you post. I appreciate that you have chosen to attempt to answer what you can. Writing on this forum can be fairly daunting and people tend to 'jump' all over new posters. And well, as a Pastor in assumed association with TPCWOC you are even more of a target. I really believe that you were unaware of what Mike was saying regarding you and your church. Mike had a way of exaggeration and tended to make himself the center in which all things revolved. He drew a picture of you and Angie that none of us wanted to touch. I am also sure you did not know the depth of spiritual abuse that took place at TP within the leadership becasue so much was hidden. And like good obedient children we strove to the detriment of one another, to keep up the appearance of a vibrant, fast growing, Holy Spirit filled, soon to be mega church. How we all fell into the cult TP became is still beyond me. I admit that I was hesitant to approach you because of how Mike spoke you. I ask for your forgiveness Calvin for not sounding the warning bell sooner. This a huge regret for me because I knew for years how off TP was and how tyranical Mike was.
I will tell the readers of this forum that I know for a fact that Calvin did want to help resolve my innocence and the way things were handled at TP. We spoke on one or two occassions. Calvin was willing to bring Sid and I down to Lebanon and have his accountant go through the so-called evidence with us. He was willing to stand with me and do the right thing. But the leadership at TP would not allow it. They wanted to 'clean-up' their own mess. During this time, Calvin really did not know me, yet he was willing to do the right thing. I admit I was so depressed when this wasnt allowed and felt any hope that had been sparked was snuffed out. But our family is strong and we stood through it. I know Calvin has been a sound voice to many and attempts to do the right thing.
I do find it almost funny that I was considered a 'rogue' leader as I was struggling with coming out of a cult and all the dishonesty and hiddeness that entailed. I do not apologize for 'blowing the whistle' because I believe that the truth had to come out. I still believe that and will sound the alarm loud and clear whenever I see spiritual abuse and lies in the church or even in individuals that yield power in some way. Mike himself told me he blamed me for the exodus at TP. I used to see that as such a negative. No longer though! I am blessed by all the people that were able to find their way out of the cult called Turning Point World Outreach Center. I am still saddened that I was accused and convicted in the eyes of many of a crime I did not commit. I am still saddened by the lack of clarity in Turning Points repentance to my family, and my exoneration of charges against me. I am still saddened by the hurt and broken children who have not gotten past the 'past' of TP. (This includes myself) I am still saddened for all the severed relationships, real or imagined beccause of all that transpired at TP and after. Please note that not one of the original staff of TP are still there. In fact anyone who was a pastor there is now gone, and all but me are leaving or have left the state. I pray that those who have chosen to remain at TP, please do so with eyes wide open. I still feel that things are not well or healthy there and would not advise anyone to attend there.
I contend that Mike and Cyndi are false teachers and association with them in ministry is not healthy in any manner. I pray for their repentance and restoration with the Lord. Even though I can not see it or comprehend it I pray for the day when this is all behind us. I would suggest Calvin that you go through all the content on your website and remove what does not fit with what TPC Lebanon stands for.
I would also ask that the people on this forum extend grace. Remember that each person on this forum is an individual and does not necessarily represent the opinion of all.
I would like to address one more item. To the new Elder Board at TPCWOC- TP finances with regards to the Philippines needs an accounting. Many people donated to that ministry and deserve an accounting of how the tens of thousands of dollars were extorted by those in charge there. At least tell the truth TP- Now is the time to bring it all to light. May God have mercy on us all, we certainly need it as we fall so short of His Glory.

In His Love (because I have none of my own) Jackie Singer

Thanks.....girl. Btw I felt very frustrated as well that we could not implement our plan to work through the accusations in a Biblical and professional way.... What a crazy ride!

Well thanks for the vote the encouragement... My choice to come here to this post was a huge leap of faith.... Believing that there were people here who had real concerns and real pain caused from real issues.... I am blessed that we can at least be mature enough to talk things out... I never care if we agree I do care greatly that we walk in love relationship with one another...

The love will come back.....sometimes we get so frustrated and cranked up that we get crazy..... We feel bad about the issue , then we feel bad that we feel bad, then we react and lash out and then fell bad about that, and then...and then... And then... You know exactly what I mean.....

Remember the Enemy is all about keeping us discouraged and full of fear. I'm not worried about what he can do because my Dad stronger than him....

I love you Jackie, I don't need to agree with everything you have said or done because i have no idea what i would have done in your shoes....My calling is to believe for the best, and hope for the best and bear things with you..... In this season I have not always know how to bare things but I have tried to be open to the truth. I dont need you to be perfect ..... And i hope you dont need that from me.... I know your not a thief ..... Your will make it. Give yourself a break and let this stuff go for a season.

Thanks again
Calvin

Calvin:

I feel that you did a GREAT JOB on clarifying things on your behalf. God bless you!.

Jackie:

Thank you for your recent post. You are loved by many. More than you know. I am so sorry you had to go through such a "Job" experience.

I agree with you that things still are not right with TP.

Your still in my prayers.

God Bless.

Calvin,
After BBQ'ing dinner for my family tonight
I was able to get back online and read you long post.

After reading your story, I have several questions...like
Now wait just a minuet! The people who have been posting here are asking the right questions they are humble, yet they are getting the run around from church leadership! The people here are interested in the TRUTH!!! Please don’t come here and make some blanket statement like “I DID NOT SEE HEARTLESS, VINDICTIVE EVIL PEOPLE TRYING TO DESTROY THINGS…” or make a character assassination against the people who have research and gathered accurate information and reported what they have discovered!

I am sending you a Private message....

For all of us who are part of this mess, WE understand the painful hurt you have had to go through!!!! and WE are not your enemy!

Calvin Bontrager:

What safeguards exist regarding accountability in your current church?

Is there a democratically elected board and officers, which is elected per church bylaws by secret ballot in a general church election process?

Is there an annually published financial report that discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds? If so, is that report independently audited by an outside accounting firm?

Please explain this explicitly in some detail.

I seemed to have somehow missed that explanation.

Brave heart

I DID NOT SEE HEARTLESS, VINDICTIVE EVIL PEOPLE TRYING TO DESTROY THINGS…” or make a character assassination against the people who have research and gathered accurate information and reported what they have discovered!

I think you mis understand the nature of my comment....I have been told by Leadership at WOC.... to fear this forum and the heartless, vindictive evil people trying to destroy things.... If there was ever disagreement almost every time the first question I was ask was have I been talking to Tony Diaz, Jackie or any one of u... If I had I was corrupt by deception and needed to pray for clarity...

What I am saying was in response to the fact that .... When I got on here that is not what I found. ..... It was not mention as an insult. Sorry

Did u get my reply to this question? I did it twice.... Part of it is actually answered in my long post... We are working on a bylaw revision as we speak.... Which we do or at least evaluate regularly. Once complete I would be happy to send you a copy..