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TruthAfterDisillusionment
I would like to bring some thoughts of mine to the table as I see them.
And I think it relates to TPC.

As a pastor, what responsibility do I have to correct another pastor?

Is it my job to tell them they are believing heresy?

Is it their job to preach against another church or its leadership?
-One might say that it is and have a good case too, for many "Christian" churches preach against, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Universalism, Christian science.

-One might also say that it isn't by saying that if we are to quick to judge, what happens if we judge to quickly and people get hurt, we become what we were trying to stop. Then we are the ones who need to repent (not that is bad, just counter productive to identifying false teachers because it brings your problems out and might minimize their heresy's)

Or is it my job to "pastor" the flock that God has given me, understandably pastors will hurt for those "sheep with out a Shepard" or people without a pastor for counsel and some occasional spiritual direction. Although many of us have pastors we go to for counsel, they still hold a primary position for their members.

Realize that a job as a "Pastor" is not an easy one to bear, it is one of great spiritual authority and those that recognize this might take a long time to pray and see where God is. I don't know what the job of a pastor is to the community, and I know many have suggested that CMP, along with others in Marysville, have not fulfilled they're duty to preach against false doctrines. I do not believe this to be true.

I believe that many of want a pastor to take the stand against TPC and in fact it might one day happen, but right now many of them are busy doing what we didn't experience at TPC, they are pastoring their own respective churches.

From Titus Check out chapter one verses 5 - 15
From 1 Timothy Check out chapter one verses 3 - 7; chapter 4; chapter 6

The letters of Paul to Timothy and Titus are significant to your question as they are letters of instruction to pastors on how they were to conduct themselves in the affairs of the churches in their communities. In fact portions of these letters are often used in ordination and installation services for todays pastors. Pastors still refer to these letters for guidance when conducting church activities and business.

You will note that Paul anticipated there were/would be pastors in these communities who needed correction. He gives clear instruction about the role of pastors in the lives of other pastors in the community. Take a look and see if your conclusions above are in line with Paul's instruction to Pastors Timothy and Titus.

The book: When Cultist Ask: Authors Norman L. Geisler and Ron Rhodes :page 119

False doctrine that is publicly proclaimed from a platform-such as a pulpit, a television show, or a radio show- is to be confronted publicly according to the New Testament pattern. The apostle Paul publicly confronted Peter when his actions compromised the liberty of the gospel(Gal.2:11-14) He publicly dealt with Hymenaeus and Alexander regarding their blasphemy(1 Tim.1:20) He publicly dealt with Alexander the coppersmith for his harmful activities(2 Tim.4:14). The apostle John publicly dealt with Diotrephes, who propagated false doctrine and refused to listen to what John and other Christian leaders had to say(3 John 9)

Though Word-Faith teachers often cite Matthew 18:15-18 (this passage deals with personal ethics and morals, not with biblical doctrine) in an effort to maintain church unity in an atmosphere of love, it is important to understand that true church unity is rooted not only in love but in truth. As Paul affirmed, the church is the "pillar and support of the truth"(1 Tim. 3:15). Members of the church are called to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints"(Jude 3 NASB). We are to "examine everything carefully" and "hold fast to that which is good"(1 Thess. 5-21). We are to follow the example of the Bereans in testing all doctrinal teachings against the Scriptures(acts 17:11). Without a commitment to the truth, there can be no true church unity!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2010 05:19AM by buddy.

The book: When Cultist Ask: Authors Norman L. Geisler and Ron Rhodes :page 254

EPHESIANS 4:11-Are Mormons (and false Apostle Mike Villamor )correct in saying that their church struture-with living prophets and apostles-is the same as that of the early church?

MISINTERPRETATION: In Ephesians 4:11 the apostle Paul says," And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers"(KJV). Mormons (and false Apostle Mike Villamor) believe their present struture (with apostles and prophets) is the same as that of the early church. Therfore, Mormons form the one true church.
Proponents of the Kingdom Now movement and( false Apostle Mike) other groups that claim new revelation from God also use this text to argue that there still are apostles and prophets.

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: According to Ephesians 2:20, the church is " built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." Once the foundation is built, it is never built again. It is built upon. Scripture indicates that apostles and prophets were foundational gifts.

The first-century apostles understood that God was providing unique revelation through them (1 Cor. 2:13) They were handpicked by the Lord(Matt.10:1-2;Acts1:26) and had divine authority (Acts 20:35;1 Cor 7:10) Bibical apostles had to be eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ(Acts1:22:1 Cor 9:1;1 Cor 15:7-8)

The book of Acts clearly attest to the uniqueness and authority of the apostles. In 2:42 the first church "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship." Throughout Acts the pronouncements of the apostles were final (Acts 15). By their voice the church was born(ch.2);miracles were performed(ch.3);rulers were restricted(ch.4);the disobedient were judged(ch.5);the Holy Spirit was given to the Samaritans(Acts.8)and the Gentiles(ch.10)

The biblical apostles were authenticated by incredible miracles(2 Cor. 12:12)-miracles like raising people from the dead(Acts9:36-42). Anyone claiming to be an apostle must be authenticated by the signs of an apostle. Mormons apostles and prophets and (false Apostle Mike) have no such miraculous attestation.

Great post BUDDY
The biblical apostles were authenticated by incredible miracles(2 Cor. 12:12)-miracles like raising people from the dead(Acts9:36-42). Anyone claiming to be an apostle must be authenticated by the signs of an apostle. Mormons apostles and prophets and (false Apostle Mike) and may I insert Tony Cunningham into that have no such miraculous attestation.

I'm curious as to how many marriages have been torn apart at TPC because one spouse is encouraged to Divorce because the other spouse is opposed to Mike's teachings. Radiant Life has had many couples including deacons and pastors on staff suffer this consequence.

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buddy
The book: When Cultist Ask: Authors Norman L. Geisler and Ron Rhodes :page 254

EPHESIANS 4:11-Are Mormons (and false Apostle Mike Villamor )correct in saying that their church struture-with living prophets and apostles-is the same as that of the early church?

MISINTERPRETATION: In Ephesians 4:11 the apostle Paul says," And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers"(KJV). Mormons (and false Apostle Mike Villamor) believe their present struture (with apostles and prophets) is the same as that of the early church. Therfore, Mormons form the one true church.
Proponents of the Kingdom Now movement and( false Apostle Mike) other groups that claim new revelation from God also use this text to argue that there still are apostles and prophets.

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: According to Ephesians 2:20, the church is " built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." Once the foundation is built, it is never built again. It is built upon. Scripture indicates that apostles and prophets were foundational gifts.

The first-century apostles understood that God was providing unique revelation through them (1 Cor. 2:13) They were handpicked by the Lord(Matt.10:1-2;Acts1:26) and had divine authority (Acts 20:35;1 Cor 7:10) Bibical apostles had to be eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ(Acts1:22:1 Cor 9:1;1 Cor 15:7-8)

The book of Acts clearly attest to the uniqueness and authority of the apostles. In 2:42 the first church "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship." Throughout Acts the pronouncements of the apostles were final (Acts 15). By their voice the church was born(ch.2);miracles were performed(ch.3);rulers were restricted(ch.4);the disobedient were judged(ch.5);the Holy Spirit was given to the Samaritans(Acts.8)and the Gentiles(ch.10)

The biblical apostles were authenticated by incredible miracles(2 Cor. 12:12)-miracles like raising people from the dead(Acts9:36-42). Anyone claiming to be an apostle must be authenticated by the signs of an apostle. Mormons apostles and prophets and (false Apostle Mike) have no such miraculous attestation.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2010 09:13AM by BraveHeart.

TAD Thanks for posting here and raising these questions. I understand that these are somewhat rhetorical examples, However I am going to respond to them as fact, truth and reality. I have broken up your quote to respond to the questions you have rhetorically raised.

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TruthAfterDisillusionment
I would like to bring some thoughts of mine to the table as I see them.
And I think it relates to TPC.

As a pastor, what responsibility do I have to correct another pastor?

Is it my job to tell them they are believing heresy?

YES!!!!
Not only do you as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ have a responsibility to bring correction to another pastor, you also have a platform to present to another pastor according to scripture and in love, how he is promoting heresy and/or false teachings.
Your silence is nothing more than enabling this abhorrent behavior.
Your silence is allowing someone to defame and defile the reputation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures. Moreover in your silence you facilitate this heretic and false teacher that end’s up leading many people away from true repentance and knowing Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior.

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TruthAfterDisillusionment cont...
Is it their job to preach against another church or its leadership?
-One might say that it is and have a good case too, for many "Christian" churches preach against, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Universalism, Christian science.

-One might also say that it isn't by saying that if we are to quick to judge, what happens if we judge to quickly and people get hurt, we become what we were trying to stop. Then we are the ones who need to repent (not that is bad, just counter productive to identifying false teachers because it brings your problems out and might minimize their heresy's)

Ok when someone comes out and says in that whinny wimpy voice “we are not suppose to judge” and then they misquote Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” OK right out of the shoot they have tripped over the block, they are doing the very thing that they are criticizing (judging) you for…judging. They are sissified in the approach to the word of God. I would suggest that if a pastor or minister is (sissified) soft on this issue of judging then they really do not have a solid grasp of the authority of the Word of God. As you read the rest of Matthew 7:2-5 Jesus teaches us to judge and he give us an example about the speck in the eye and the plank
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Bringing judgment to another person is to be done rightly. The person bringing the correction or judgment is doing this out of Love, Love for the Lord Jesus Christ and Love for that person's.......Salvation!
We need to take the whole passage and the whole book into prospective, yes proper biblical Hermeneutics, 'the science and methodology of interpreting texts, especially the books of the Bible.'
For Example I can not look only at this verse in Matthew 7:1 and block out of my mind the rest of the book of Matthew or the rest of God’s word. That’s how we end up with wrong teachings. If I do, I come up with an improper understanding and/or wrong prospective of what the author intended. For people in a church or outside the church to say "You should not judge" is a self reputing statement. To take that position of we shouldn’t judge then that would put a whole bunch of police and judges out of business not to mention it would empty our prisons. Is this what your advocate?
This is a perfect example of how false teachers will take a verse out of context to manipulate it to advance their own agenda. This is done NOT from the prospective from what the bible teaches us, or even more specifically in how Jesus preached. Remember in Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." This is the theme of how Jesus preached, His message was Repent and Believe. This applies to the beatitudes, Zacchaeus, the blind men, or the woman caught in adultery etc. as you read on in Matthew 7 or the book of Mark, Luke and John.

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TruthAfterDisillusionment cont...
Or is it my job to "pastor" the flock that God has given me, understandably pastors will hurt for those "sheep with out a Sheppard" or people without a pastor for counsel and some occasional spiritual direction. Although many of us have pastors we go to for counsel, they still hold a primary position for their members.

Realize that a job as a "Pastor" is not an easy one to bear, it is one of great spiritual authority

NO, No No!!!
IT IS A RESPONSIBILITY!
Not some superior authority over the people!
Your job is not to control people with your Spiritual Authority!!!!
Nor some way to manipulate or control the people!!!!
Do you not remember the words of our Lord instructing the disciples in Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” When we hear a pastor carry on about “I did this” or “I did that.” Or carrying on with I, I, I, Me, I etc. Sir, I would hope that the hair on the back of your neck is standing straight up out of fear that you facing a wolf in the pulpit!!

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TruthAfterDisillusionment cont...
and those that recognize this might take a long time to pray and see where God is.

If you are in the pulpit and you do not know that God is Omnipresent then sir please for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Testimony we have in the bible, Remove yourself from such a position, go back to the Lord and Repent. Make sure you are saved first....Then study the Word of God and discover what the Bible teaches us about.... Where do we Christians find the teaching of the Trinity? Why God made man? What gives Scripture Authority? Inerrancy, The Doctorin of God , the attributes of God, Omnipresence, Creation, did Jesus Believe in a 7 day creation? Why the fall? Why the Cross? Justification, Adoption, Justification vs. Sanctification, Ecclesiology, Repentance, Faith and more.

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TruthAfterDisillusionment cont...
I don't know what the job of a pastor is to the community, and I know many have suggested that CMP, along with others in Marysville, have not fulfilled they're duty to preach against false doctrines. I do not believe this to be true.

The Responsibility we all have is to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS. (Matthew 28:19-20)
Sir You couldn't be further from the truth! Look at the testimony of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter & Jude They all died defending the gospel message and coming against false teachers. You're ether a follower of Jesus Christ or you're not!
* Andrew: Crucified.
* Bartholomew: Crucified.
* James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
* James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
* Matthew: Death by the sword.
* Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
* Philip: Crucified.
* Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
* Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
* Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.

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TruthAfterDisillusionment cont...
I believe that many of want a pastor to take the stand against TPC and in fact it might one day happen, but right now many of them are busy doing what we didn't experience at TPC, they are pastoring their own respective churches.

I believe to be a minister or pastor a church, your primary responsibility job is to equip the saints within your own church first and foremost. But for the love of God you owe it to the Lord your God to proclaim the truth and to challenge all the apostate pastors in your area to come back to the Word of God to renounce the false teachings and get back to proclaiming the gospel message of Jesus Christ.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Here is my statement of faith
I believe the Bible to be the inspired, infallible, authoritative, and inerrant Word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21).
I believe there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:1, Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 28:19, John 10:30).
I believe in the deity of Christ (John 10:33); His virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Luke 1:34-35); His sinless life (Hebrews 4:15, 7:26); His miracles (John 2:11); His vicarious and atoning death (I Corinthians 15:3, Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 2:9); His resurrection (John 11:25, I Corinthians 15:4); His ascension to the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19); His personal return to earth in power and glory (Acts 1:11, Revelation 19:11-16). I believe in the absolute necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit for salvation because of the exceeding sinfulness of the human nature, and that all are justified on the single ground of faith in the shed blood of Christ, and that only by God's grace through faith alone that we are saved (John 3:16-19; 5:24, Romans 3:23; 5:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5).
I believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; those who are saved unto the resurrection of life, and those who are not unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).
I believe in the spiritual unity of the believers in our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9, I Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:26-28).
I believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by Whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life (Romans 8:13-14, I Corinthians 3:16, 6:19-20, Ephesians 4:30; 5:18).
I believe that we as Christians are examples of the love of God in this world. It is this (agape) love that we desire to possess and without which we have no right to call ourselves Christians (I John 4:16-17).
I believe it is the mandate of the whole Church to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19-20)

BraveHeart

Sermon for Sunday Feb.7 at TPCWOC : LEAD: Devotion: by false Prophet Cyndi Villamor is now online at TPCWOC home web site. Cyndi says they are in the middle of their Lead launch and they have repackage their Vision. She says nobody knows what their vision is, including me. Cyndi says she cannot remember it for the life of me.
But Cydni can remember the New Vision.(New Revelation)
Cydni says that she wants to review LEAD and give her two cents. Cydni shares the letter L in lead. Cydni says as a church we are called to raise up people in leadership in unity in the comminity, mens ministry, business leaders and great moms. She says they have leaders 3-4 leaders deep that can preach.
Cydni wants to talk about the E in LEAD which means evangelism. (But nobody would show up every Sat. morning when we where suppose to go out and share the Gospel.)
Next Cydni wants to share what the A stands for in LEAD. Cydni says we believe in a church that God is restoring the Apostolic Ministry. And that the Apostle at TPCWOC is not the equivalent to Peter or Paul. ( Has Cydni told her husband Mike that he is not. I mean Mikes pride is going to be crushed by the news. Mike will have to humble himself and be one of the lesser Apostles from the New Testament.) Cydni says a Apostle means one sent with a mission. And that the kingdom will be advanced at a much quicker pace. Cydni says Apostles have great leadership skills and are strong Visionaries. Cydni says that it resembles a few people around here! ( Let me guess, Mike, right!) (Someone has to feed his delusional mind) Cydni says Apostles futher unity in regions and movements. Also plant churches and mature the believers. That's what Apostolic Ministry does. Cydni says " do you think we should be a part of that?" " Do you think every church wants to be a part of that?" ( I think I heard a couple people clap )(way to fool all the churches in Marysville with your unity movement)
Cydni says " i really beleve God is doing work here" ( Me to, not the work you want, God wants to correct you but you and Mike won't listen )
Cydni says "God will raise up Apostolic Ministry at the TP churches and also outside churches and he will pull them in and link arms with them and make us a stronger movement!" ( sounds like a cult unity movement to me)
Cydni now wants to share the letter d in LEAD, devotion. God will look at Marysville. The Lord is looking back and forth right now the Lord is looking for who is fully devoted to him (Mike) because of him i will show myself strong. Don't you hope, don't you wish that God would look upon Marysville and see a concentration of believers not just one but hundreds.( if the believers are like you and false Apostle Mike , one would be to many)
Cydni says God wants people with passion and not perfect people.( I though Mike and Cydni where perfect) Even if you make a bad decision as long as your on the side of faith. (No big deal)
Cydni says growing up she was told to just expect it by faith.She had a hard time feeling God. She says " i tell you by certain the presence of the Lord is real".
She says," One of the things i have prayed for for years for this body is when people walk through those doors and they experience worship that the presence of the Lord would be so heavy, that if they never felt the presence of the Lord that they would have to feel it here. That they would have to feel it. That they would have to feel for the first time that there is a God in Heaven. ( Oh, brother! ) She says that you have to know him and to have communion with him is the most important thing.( How come only a few ever take communion at TP?) She says that to know Him and not that you have a great doctrine is important.( that covers all of Mikes false doctrines)
Cydni shares the word good with us and Mikes favorite word prosperity. She says " Are we a prosperity church?" " All of us should be a prosperity church!" She says the utimate prosperity is the nearness of God. (but richness and success helps) (And a helicopter like Casey Treats so Mike won't have to drive to his other churches)
She says that the character of God does not want you to skip your tithe this month.
Cydni says,' what she is seeing in the church today is that they cater to the fear of dissappointment then to Gods promises. We need to pray and expect things to happen. (Just keep having Dr. Increase, Dr. Favor and Casey Treat show up once in a while so you can learn how to pray to God and get your prosperity.)
She says that the enemy is doing a great job on fooling the Christian community to think they should cater to fear! ( We fear what has become of TPCWOC under the leadership of false Apostle Mike and false Prophet Cydni Villamor)

As I read the posts since Concened Pastors post I thought long and hard before writing this post. Every know and again you see dramatic stories on the news about how social agencies have failed to act and someone is victimized or abused. If you know that a pastor or a church is taking unbiblical advantage of its flock and you do or say nothing and the sheep of the Lords flock are victimized and abused then are not you responsible as well? Do you really want to give an account to Jesus on why you failed to bring correction to a peer to prevent the sheep of the Lord's flock from being victimized and abused? That would be far worse than being vilified on the evening news like some social agencies when a victim or victims of abuse story is brought to light.

Saddened

Thank you all for responding. It has helped me see your point and where I might agree with you in that it is the responsibility of a pastor to confront others. Many of you missed my point.

CMP and others dont see this as clearly as we do. So to form an unbiased opinion about TPC they must go through a process similar to what we went through. They are going to hurt, question themselves, then leadership ot TPC, then go back to themselves, ask silly questions like "God am I going crazy"? Till they are lead to truth.

Maybe it is just me, but I am more simpathtic to a pastor correcting another pastor, because it is not their primary funtion, it is to nurture sheep, which may include this...but it is a bigger event (more emotionally and spiritually taxing) in the life of a pastor than our own.

I remember what I said a long time ago about TPC. Is that how they preach something and how something is delt with are two different doctrines, one sounds very watered down, weary of somebody catching on to what they might be actually doing and has actually been said. They might word it to them so it is palatable, I know I have experienced this many times when I was going to TPC. Although an overwhelming large amount of people have posted on this fourm and is reason enough to question leadership, how do it in love takes time, prayer, and a realationship that might even them a reasonable edge to speaking into their church. Personally I think if a large enough group of pastors spoke to Jeff B that he might sperate himself from Mike.

It has only been recently have they started to announce some of the more radical teachings to the public like the NAR. Which has given a rise to a huge concern. So give the pastors some time to think and pray, let them be lead to truth, it will happen, its only a matter of time.

Now don't get me wrong. I do think it is the pastors job to correct other pastors, epecially those who want "unity". But I also think that many of us make the answer seem so easy, and go to the point of insulting the pastors when they might disagree with our conclusions. I feel like the pastors might be seeing something we aren't seeing. Its a little foggy for them.

Thank you for all the helpful scipture and responces TPR, Brave and CMP it has been good getting some more dialogue on this forum.

Dear TAD TruthAfterDisillusionment
Regarding your comment

Quote

"Maybe it is just me, but I am more sympathetic to a pastor correcting another pastor, because it is not their primary function, it is to nurture sheep, which may include this...but it is a bigger event (more emotionally and spiritually taxing) in the life of a pastor than our own........

.....Now don't get me wrong. I do think it is the pastors job to correct other pastors, epecially those who want "unity". But I also think that many of us make the answer seem so easy, and go to the point of insulting the pastors when they might disagree with our conclusions. I feel like the pastors might be seeing something we aren't seeing. Its a little foggy for them."

in other words; So the Flea says to the Dog…
"Don’t scratch and everything will be okay."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2010 10:54AM by BraveHeart.