Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: February 02, 2010 01:06AM
Quote
ConcernedMarysvillePastor
I am a pastor in Marysville who has been recently invited to read this forum by some friends and former TP attendees in order to gain a better insight into the New Apostolic Reformation and the Word-Faith Prosperity teaching at TPWOC. PLEASE UNDERSTAND that it is not easy for a pastor to come on here and write. I love Mike and Cyndi, Jeff and Kim with all my heart. They are my friends. They have encouraged me personally as well as in ministry. In many ways, some of the pastors in this city hurt like you hurt, of course to a different degree. Some of us are like you, still trying to sort all this out theologically (BTW: thanks for your many good posts and links! They have helped me). I am trying to discern how to respond in love and truth. There are a few of us pastors (that I am aware of) that have been praying for TP as well as for those of you who are hurting. We pray that the leaders of TP would return to their first love: preaching Christ to a broken world and nothing more or less than that.
Here's the reason I am chiming in. My "pastor heart" hurts for Tell The Truth. I may not be YOUR pastor but I am a pastor and I can't help it! TTT, you wrote: "I feel like we should go back to our spiritually dead church because I am afraid. We have been nomads and I thought we had finally found a home. But, now I am afraid we will have to uproot and move again." I am saddened that you feel that your only option is to go back to your "spiritually dead church" out of fear.
In 1 Corinthians chapter 1 Paul talks about how many are tempted to look for "dynamic and famous personalities" to follow (like Paul, Apollos and Peter) some (he points to the Jews) look for "signs" while others (Paul points to Greeks) look for "wisdom". Please don't assume that the supposed presence of any of these things automatically means a church is "alive." I would beg you to find a church that preaches the simple Gospel message of Christ crucified for sin. A church that proclaims Christ crucified with no apologies and no additions or subtractions proclaims the power of God, the wisdom of God and is a church that is ALIVE!
TTT: There are many "spiritually alive" churches in Marysville - if you care to private e-mail me, I would be happy to point you toward a few, including but not necessarily the one I pastor. The reason I say "not necessarily the one I pastor" is that I am not interested in building "my" kingdom but God's Kingdom, our church may not be the best fit for you. There really is a common love among most of the churches in Marysville and I absolutely trust most churches to shepherd you well. I would consider it a joy to point you toward any of these!
TTT - I am praying for you! I'm glad you visited a church today! You will find a place to worship in spirit AND in truth!
"Concerned Marysville Pastor"
Also, I have seen some on the forum have wondered about the unity in Marysville among the pastors, let me tell you: its real. It is not grandstanding and false. I truly love my fellow pastors deeply. We certainly disagree about non-essential and disputable doctrines and practices but hold strongly to essential truths of Scripture. I for one reject the NAR, the Word-Faith Movement, Prosperity Gospel and teachings like that and believe that most of the churches in Marysville do as well. In our unity we are following a path set by the Lord in Scripture to love as brothers. And quite honestly - when Mike and TP championed that in Marysville, I believe he did so with integrity of heart, without any ulterior motives or deception.
CMP,
Thank you for posting. You are one of the very few pastors who are willing to stand upon the courage of their convictions and wade into the fray. Most pastors in your community, as you state, are fearful and find it difficult to come here. Their silence in many ways is in itself consent to what is taking place and what is being taught in churches like Turning Point Church. Thank you for breaking your silence. I pray other pastors will be convicted by the Truth of the Spirit and that they too will speak out.
You must know that in the eyes of those who have given their hearts and souls to the NAR that pastors such as yourself are in rebellion, and worst, not true ministers of their lord. Its not simply a matter of being in disagreement over a non-essential. In the eyes of those associated with the NAR what they teach IS THE ESSENTIAL. The motive and reasoning for promoting and driving unity is to bring those outside the umbrella of the Super Apostles into unity with them and their teachings. So, yes, Mike promotes this unity movement with integrity of heart, but his heart is for Dominion. His heart is for the Restoration of the Apostolic. His heart is for the Seven Mountains. His heart is for the Covering. He does not attempt to deceive others about his heart. He is quite open about his views. But...his heart is deceived.
I pray now for you and your family. The leaders at Turning Point Church monitor this site daily. Now that you have posted here they will seek to find out your identity. And they will attempt to discredit you and your ministry. You will experience spiritual attack, no doubt. So gird yourself with the whole armor of God.
Thank you for breaking your silence.
TPR
One more link for you as you continue to 'sort all this out theologically' [www.apologeticsindex.org]
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: February 02, 2010 01:14AM
Proverbs 24
11 Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
12 If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?
11 Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
12 If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Die Quietly
()
Date: February 02, 2010 02:12AM
ConcernedMarysvillePastor,
Thank you for your post. It is helpful to know that other pastors are watching and disagree - though I wish they would stand for the scattered sheep. Most of us feel lonely and alone in our stand, even with the board and friends we've made along the way. I for one have lost many friends and am blatantly ignored in public. This has been a difficult journey for all of us and we all have different ways of handling it. Thank you for breaking your silence. M&C have hurt so many with their division, the "line in the sand", and their "turning point team" or else stance. They have demanded dissassociating with anyone who has left or spoken ill of the policies and teachings at turning point. They have become an island to themselves and anyone who is not on that island is in sin. It makes it hard to find another church because we always wonder if this pastor will demand honor both monitarially and the "seat of honor". Will he tell us that we should double or triple tythe, to go without any luxuries for the building fund (that is now $500k smaller than it was a year ago and nothing to showfor it). Does this new pastor in our lives think he is the spiritual authority that knows all and we're now in rebellion if we don't follow his counsil... the list goes on. Please stay and let us get to know you - it would do me some good. For most of us - we consider you our equal, not higher or lower so if you expect elevation it won't happen. If you expect brotherhood - I for one accept you as a brother. Please feel free to PM me if you would like.
In Christ,
Die Quietly
Thank you for your post. It is helpful to know that other pastors are watching and disagree - though I wish they would stand for the scattered sheep. Most of us feel lonely and alone in our stand, even with the board and friends we've made along the way. I for one have lost many friends and am blatantly ignored in public. This has been a difficult journey for all of us and we all have different ways of handling it. Thank you for breaking your silence. M&C have hurt so many with their division, the "line in the sand", and their "turning point team" or else stance. They have demanded dissassociating with anyone who has left or spoken ill of the policies and teachings at turning point. They have become an island to themselves and anyone who is not on that island is in sin. It makes it hard to find another church because we always wonder if this pastor will demand honor both monitarially and the "seat of honor". Will he tell us that we should double or triple tythe, to go without any luxuries for the building fund (that is now $500k smaller than it was a year ago and nothing to showfor it). Does this new pastor in our lives think he is the spiritual authority that knows all and we're now in rebellion if we don't follow his counsil... the list goes on. Please stay and let us get to know you - it would do me some good. For most of us - we consider you our equal, not higher or lower so if you expect elevation it won't happen. If you expect brotherhood - I for one accept you as a brother. Please feel free to PM me if you would like.
In Christ,
Die Quietly
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
outreach
()
Date: February 02, 2010 06:40AM
Concernedmarysvillepastor,
Thanks for your post. Thanks for taking the time to encourage us.
God Bless you as you stand for the truth.
Outreach.
Thanks for your post. Thanks for taking the time to encourage us.
God Bless you as you stand for the truth.
Outreach.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
WonderingNow
()
Date: February 02, 2010 06:42AM
I also want to thank you, Marysville Pastor, for posting on this forum. Just today, I had decided to never return to this forum because I cannot seem to let go my anger, frustration, hurt, rejection, and loneliness. I thought leaving the forum would help -- but I'm weak and I returned! It helps to get the anger out here.
I left TP last summer and have not found a new church home-- I've been to church 4 times since last summer. It's so painful. I'm scared. I am beyond angry -- I'm livid -- with Turning Point and their teachings. I am angry at Pastor Mike because he refuses to preach the simple gospel -- he goes off into all these stupid, meaningless, ridiculous tangents. His topics are always about HIM! He glorifies himself ALL THE TIME! And sometimes, I didn't know what he was talking about -- like stuff going on from without that the congregants knew nothing about -- and he would preach on that! It was sometimes a mystery! Looking back I think he was talking about all the stuff happening on this forum -- before I knew about it. He was ALWAYS ALWAYS on the defensive -- never preaching the deep things of God -- NEVER!!!!!! And we're never supposed to say "always" and "never," but honestly, I never ever ever heard Mike preach through an entire book of the Bible verse by verse by verse. I don't honestly think he knows how to.
A pastor is supposed to dig deep into the Word of God, preach the word, EXPOSIT (if that's a word) the Word -- verse by verse so that his sheep will rise to glorify their God. I am dying for the Word of God to be preached in the pulpit somewhere. When I hear it on the radio -- it's almost like I can't believe someone out there knows how to do it!! Why can't we have Spurgeons, or Luthers, or Calvins today. Isn't the Word of God being preached in its pure undefiled manner going to be the catalyst for changing the world -- for saving lives bound for hell? Constantly haranguing congregations about the glories of APOSTLES, PROSPERITY -- COME TO JESUS FOR WHAT HE CAN DO FOR ME, WORD-FAITH, YOUR BEST FREAKING LIFE NOW CRAP IS NOT GOING TO RESUCE PEOPLE FROM HELL! Why in the HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL can't Pastor Mike and Pastor Jeff get this? Is it rocket science or something? Is it? Isn't the simple gospel of Jesus Christ enough for them? NO! It's not!!!! They know better! They hire church growth people to tell them how to grow their church! They bring in pastors that teach you to say a verse umpteen times a day to gain increase. And maybe the church grows -- but are there people there bound for hell? They make me sick!
I cannot even begin to express the depths of my anger -- and I don't know why I can't let it go. I'm angry because God is not being glorified, lives are not being changed, people are not being delivered from darkness to light, and I'm angry because I lost my church family that I adored. And I'm angry that I got sucked in for a season. And this morning I think it dawned on me that I'm most angry because I lost my church family and that made me feel guilty that I wasn't angrier that God is NOT being glorified there as He deserves -- and that bothered me -- I'm so shallow!
I left TP last summer and have not found a new church home-- I've been to church 4 times since last summer. It's so painful. I'm scared. I am beyond angry -- I'm livid -- with Turning Point and their teachings. I am angry at Pastor Mike because he refuses to preach the simple gospel -- he goes off into all these stupid, meaningless, ridiculous tangents. His topics are always about HIM! He glorifies himself ALL THE TIME! And sometimes, I didn't know what he was talking about -- like stuff going on from without that the congregants knew nothing about -- and he would preach on that! It was sometimes a mystery! Looking back I think he was talking about all the stuff happening on this forum -- before I knew about it. He was ALWAYS ALWAYS on the defensive -- never preaching the deep things of God -- NEVER!!!!!! And we're never supposed to say "always" and "never," but honestly, I never ever ever heard Mike preach through an entire book of the Bible verse by verse by verse. I don't honestly think he knows how to.
A pastor is supposed to dig deep into the Word of God, preach the word, EXPOSIT (if that's a word) the Word -- verse by verse so that his sheep will rise to glorify their God. I am dying for the Word of God to be preached in the pulpit somewhere. When I hear it on the radio -- it's almost like I can't believe someone out there knows how to do it!! Why can't we have Spurgeons, or Luthers, or Calvins today. Isn't the Word of God being preached in its pure undefiled manner going to be the catalyst for changing the world -- for saving lives bound for hell? Constantly haranguing congregations about the glories of APOSTLES, PROSPERITY -- COME TO JESUS FOR WHAT HE CAN DO FOR ME, WORD-FAITH, YOUR BEST FREAKING LIFE NOW CRAP IS NOT GOING TO RESUCE PEOPLE FROM HELL! Why in the HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL can't Pastor Mike and Pastor Jeff get this? Is it rocket science or something? Is it? Isn't the simple gospel of Jesus Christ enough for them? NO! It's not!!!! They know better! They hire church growth people to tell them how to grow their church! They bring in pastors that teach you to say a verse umpteen times a day to gain increase. And maybe the church grows -- but are there people there bound for hell? They make me sick!
I cannot even begin to express the depths of my anger -- and I don't know why I can't let it go. I'm angry because God is not being glorified, lives are not being changed, people are not being delivered from darkness to light, and I'm angry because I lost my church family that I adored. And I'm angry that I got sucked in for a season. And this morning I think it dawned on me that I'm most angry because I lost my church family and that made me feel guilty that I wasn't angrier that God is NOT being glorified there as He deserves -- and that bothered me -- I'm so shallow!
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Brokenhearted
()
Date: February 03, 2010 01:36AM
Thank you Pastor, for your post.
I guess I am just wondering, what is the role of a pastor? Is it to promote unity among other pastors? Is it to lead the "city" into unity? What definition of unity are these local pastors using? Is there a "cost" to pursuing unity, and who is going to pay for it?
I always a ssumed that a pastors job was to look after the sheep, to feed them, to protect them, etc. How is unity among the pastors in Marysville caring for the lost, or for the broken? How are the wounded (who are coming out of TP) being cared for and treated?
I know many, many people who are terrified of going into another church! There are questions about most pastor's loyalties to Mike and questions of sound doctrine. After the experience that many have had at TP, they wonder, will they be asked to "give honor" to leaders, and what that will mean. After experiencing "worship" at TP, anything less enthusiatic is considered not real or not spiritual enough, but anything that is similar in practice to TP is suspect.
I was one of the lucky ones, my family found a new, safe church relatively soon after leaving TP. But, even in our new church home, I was suspect for a very long time. I still cringe when I hear certain "buzz words". I used to sit on the edge of my seat, just waiting for the pastor to "go there" so that I could get up and walk out. We attended several meetings, meant to inform people about the church, and so that new members could get to know the pastor. We always asked a lot of questions about leadership and accountability, how the finances are handled, and what our recourse would be if the pastor decided to go rouge. I still struggle with trusting my own, God given gift of discernment. I am skeptical, and I research every author suggested, every church mentioned, every pastor recomended, and everything that's preached....it goes way beyond "weigh and test everything".
I guess I am just wondering, what is the role of a pastor? Is it to promote unity among other pastors? Is it to lead the "city" into unity? What definition of unity are these local pastors using? Is there a "cost" to pursuing unity, and who is going to pay for it?
I always a ssumed that a pastors job was to look after the sheep, to feed them, to protect them, etc. How is unity among the pastors in Marysville caring for the lost, or for the broken? How are the wounded (who are coming out of TP) being cared for and treated?
I know many, many people who are terrified of going into another church! There are questions about most pastor's loyalties to Mike and questions of sound doctrine. After the experience that many have had at TP, they wonder, will they be asked to "give honor" to leaders, and what that will mean. After experiencing "worship" at TP, anything less enthusiatic is considered not real or not spiritual enough, but anything that is similar in practice to TP is suspect.
I was one of the lucky ones, my family found a new, safe church relatively soon after leaving TP. But, even in our new church home, I was suspect for a very long time. I still cringe when I hear certain "buzz words". I used to sit on the edge of my seat, just waiting for the pastor to "go there" so that I could get up and walk out. We attended several meetings, meant to inform people about the church, and so that new members could get to know the pastor. We always asked a lot of questions about leadership and accountability, how the finances are handled, and what our recourse would be if the pastor decided to go rouge. I still struggle with trusting my own, God given gift of discernment. I am skeptical, and I research every author suggested, every church mentioned, every pastor recomended, and everything that's preached....it goes way beyond "weigh and test everything".
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Phun with Pharisees
()
Date: February 03, 2010 03:38AM
I stand corrected Christine, I have used generalizations. I have not read ALL of the threads. I have wrongly lumped some into the group that don't deserve it (namely Northwest..and I'm sure there are others) but for the sake of my time(it would take a long time to read each post and subsequest response) and my sanity (I have sampled enough of the more venomous posts..the Cliff Notes version) that it would be painful to read. Remember there is some boasting going on about hitting the 100k mark on this thread so once again...I HAVE NOT READ EVERY SINGLE POST. Therefore I used broad sweeping generalizations about the authors of some of the more nasty posts..you know who you are. Yes Christine, I am a liar and a hypocrite. The difference is I recognize it and can admit it. By the way the "boat" you speak of will continue to remain afloat as long as there are people. I appreciate your sarcasm though.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
LearningPoint
()
Date: February 03, 2010 11:16AM
Phun,
Just for the record, there are not 100K posts, only that many "hits"--so it's not really that hard to read through the entire thread if you take it a few pages at a time. It would be a sad mistake to read only the worst of the worst, because people (such as M&M and TurningPointReject--there are others) post some really helpful and thought-provoking things here.
Also, how do you distinguish boasting from celebrating? If you stand behind your observation about people here "boasting" about the thread being often visited, have you not also noticed that Turning Point boasts of its accomplishments (such as numbers) all the time? They might call it "celebrating" or "praise reports" but how is that different from people on here being excited that this thread has 100K hits? I'll tell you how it's different. TP is excited that it's image and reputation are gaining steam (self-glorification), while the people on here are excited that the message is getting "out there" to those who have been devastated by the actions, attitudes, words, and doctrine of leadership at TP (their focus is helping others get free and heal). Which is more noble--self-glorification or warning people of danger?
You are deceived, Phun. It is very sad. I hope you will be undeceived one day. I truly do.
Christine
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2010 11:31AM by LearningPoint.
Just for the record, there are not 100K posts, only that many "hits"--so it's not really that hard to read through the entire thread if you take it a few pages at a time. It would be a sad mistake to read only the worst of the worst, because people (such as M&M and TurningPointReject--there are others) post some really helpful and thought-provoking things here.
Also, how do you distinguish boasting from celebrating? If you stand behind your observation about people here "boasting" about the thread being often visited, have you not also noticed that Turning Point boasts of its accomplishments (such as numbers) all the time? They might call it "celebrating" or "praise reports" but how is that different from people on here being excited that this thread has 100K hits? I'll tell you how it's different. TP is excited that it's image and reputation are gaining steam (self-glorification), while the people on here are excited that the message is getting "out there" to those who have been devastated by the actions, attitudes, words, and doctrine of leadership at TP (their focus is helping others get free and heal). Which is more noble--self-glorification or warning people of danger?
You are deceived, Phun. It is very sad. I hope you will be undeceived one day. I truly do.
Christine
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2010 11:31AM by LearningPoint.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
LearningPoint
()
Date: February 03, 2010 11:19AM
You are FAR from shallow, WonderingNow.
Quote
WonderingNow
I also want to thank you, Marysville Pastor, for posting on this forum. Just today, I had decided to never return to this forum because I cannot seem to let go my anger, frustration, hurt, rejection, and loneliness. I thought leaving the forum would help -- but I'm weak and I returned! It helps to get the anger out here.
I left TP last summer and have not found a new church home-- I've been to church 4 times since last summer. It's so painful. I'm scared. I am beyond angry -- I'm livid -- with Turning Point and their teachings. I am angry at Pastor Mike because he refuses to preach the simple gospel -- he goes off into all these stupid, meaningless, ridiculous tangents. His topics are always about HIM! He glorifies himself ALL THE TIME! And sometimes, I didn't know what he was talking about -- like stuff going on from without that the congregants knew nothing about -- and he would preach on that! It was sometimes a mystery! Looking back I think he was talking about all the stuff happening on this forum -- before I knew about it. He was ALWAYS ALWAYS on the defensive -- never preaching the deep things of God -- NEVER!!!!!! And we're never supposed to say "always" and "never," but honestly, I never ever ever heard Mike preach through an entire book of the Bible verse by verse by verse. I don't honestly think he knows how to.
A pastor is supposed to dig deep into the Word of God, preach the word, EXPOSIT (if that's a word) the Word -- verse by verse so that his sheep will rise to glorify their God. I am dying for the Word of God to be preached in the pulpit somewhere. When I hear it on the radio -- it's almost like I can't believe someone out there knows how to do it!! Why can't we have Spurgeons, or Luthers, or Calvins today. Isn't the Word of God being preached in its pure undefiled manner going to be the catalyst for changing the world -- for saving lives bound for hell? Constantly haranguing congregations about the glories of APOSTLES, PROSPERITY -- COME TO JESUS FOR WHAT HE CAN DO FOR ME, WORD-FAITH, YOUR BEST FREAKING LIFE NOW CRAP IS NOT GOING TO RESUCE PEOPLE FROM HELL! Why in the HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL can't Pastor Mike and Pastor Jeff get this? Is it rocket science or something? Is it? Isn't the simple gospel of Jesus Christ enough for them? NO! It's not!!!! They know better! They hire church growth people to tell them how to grow their church! They bring in pastors that teach you to say a verse umpteen times a day to gain increase. And maybe the church grows -- but are there people there bound for hell? They make me sick!
I cannot even begin to express the depths of my anger -- and I don't know why I can't let it go. I'm angry because God is not being glorified, lives are not being changed, people are not being delivered from darkness to light, and I'm angry because I lost my church family that I adored. And I'm angry that I got sucked in for a season. And this morning I think it dawned on me that I'm most angry because I lost my church family and that made me feel guilty that I wasn't angrier that God is NOT being glorified there as He deserves -- and that bothered me -- I'm so shallow!
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: February 03, 2010 11:53AM
Quote
Phun with Pharisees
I stand corrected Christine, I have used generalizations. I have not read ALL of the threads. I have wrongly lumped some into the group that don't deserve it (namely Northwest..and I'm sure there are others) but for the sake of my time(it would take a long time to read each post and subsequest response) and my sanity (I have sampled enough of the more venomous posts..the Cliff Notes version) that it would be painful to read. Remember there is some boasting going on about hitting the 100k mark on this thread so once again...I HAVE NOT READ EVERY SINGLE POST. Therefore I used broad sweeping generalizations about the authors of some of the more nasty posts..you know who you are. Yes Christine, I am a liar and a hypocrite. The difference is I recognize it and can admit it. By the way the "boat" you speak of will continue to remain afloat as long as there are people. I appreciate your sarcasm though.
Phun Pharisee, This is Allen. I see you misconstrued the following, which I sent to you, as boasting. It is neither boasting nor celebrating.
Quote
The Turning Point thread just hit the 100,000 view mark. Thank you for your contribution. Without you it would have never happened.
It was a statement of fact. The truth is your post generated several views that might not have occurred otherwise. Its ironic.
I do thank you for your contribution. For without yours and that of many many others there would not be so many views. It sparked some thoughtful dialogue and added to the views of this thread.
Your contributions also underscored the very truths regarding the behaviour of spiritually abusive churches and their members. Thank you. For what you meant to be mean, demeaning, and hurtful God is able to use to reveal truth.
I am not surprised that you havent read all the posts. Your posts made it clear that you were speaking from an uninformed position. I believe your fear is what keeps you from reading each post. My question is, "What do you fear"? Do you fear being made an outcast by your spiritual leaders? Do you fear losing your place of honor? What do you fear?
Again...your desire to intimidate and bully people on this forum into silence will not work. If you care to dialogue about the concerns and issues raised on this forum then man up and do so. But we will not sit back idly and allow you to cow us into silence. So...man up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2010 12:03PM by TurningPointReject.
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