With all due respect, it sure seems to me that there’s a lot of effort put forth by PC towards “damage control.” It would almost appear that certain individuals here are nothing more than propaganda ministers that come on this board to twist the truth around and put forth a lot of cover up for Praise Chapel. It kind of reminds me of “Lord Ha-ha,” or “Tokyo Rose” of WWII fame.

Okay Frank, I am not basing anything just on one other person who had similar experiences at another PC. Although, isn’t that enough? But why is it that you seem to ignore the blatant, and obvious attempts that other posters here have employed to try and shut me up or run me off the board? They do happen to be from other PC churches. Why is that? Does their behavior seem Christ-like to you? How many Praise Chapels have to be added to the tally before it becomes crystal clear?

You haven’t noticed the attitudes of these individuals? It is all exactly the same.

They identified themselves as being from two other separate Praise Chapel churches.. One of them claimed to be in leadership and the other ID’d himself as a pastor. They even use the same phrases I heard in the church I was at! Such as, “Suck it up and serve?” Or how about, “You just don’t want to give.” Where did that come from? I’ve certainly heard that numerous times before. I’ll tell you where it’s coming from, it’s coming from the leadership of the mother church. All those Conferences that the mother church holds has a lot to do with it as well. All those meetings the mother church has with it’s pastors also have a lot to do with it.

Note how I began receiving personal emails, many of them nothing more than threats by persons stating to be from various Praise Chapels. And these are allegedly Christians? Why is that? Does Praise Chapel have so much at stake if the truth comes out? Apparently so. Obviously they have quite a bit to hide.

I’ve been to the PC in San Fernando when it was at the old theater on Maclay. I’ve been to the PC that used to be on Walnut Grove in San Gabriel. I have friends in PC Churches in the central Los Angeles area, and another friend in H.P. Most especially the mother church of the Montebello church in Huntington Park is another to add to the list. It is all the same basic thing. Just how many more do I need to go to in order to figure it out? No thanks, I have had quite enough.

Granted, I have not seen encouraged vomiting at altar call, or exorcisms at any PC other than the one I was at the longest. Neither have I seen “Benny Hinn” style healings, nor having the entire congregation remove their shoes and engage in processions around the sanctuary, because “we are walking on Holy Ground” as the pastor’s wife stops individuals to prophesize over them. But the same subtle manipulation techniques I have noticed in all of them. How many more PC’s does one need to go to in order to determine whether or not they are a cult?

Didn’t you notice that worshipGod who posted here indicated that he easily met over 50 pastors (at least fifty different pastors from at least as many other PC churches) that all had the same attitude? Why is that?

Quote: “I easily met over 50 pastors from praise chapel and I can say that they all stand on the same thought of controlling their flock.”

Hummm. Must be just a coincidence.

Then do tell me where this attitude is coming from? Are you telling me that in all the PC Churches that you are familiar with they don’t tell you things like: “You cannot say bad things about your pastor otherwise something may come down on you from God.”

Quote: “In our church we had a lot of guest pastors from other praise chapel churches that came to preach. The message for the most part was manipulative, judgemental and very contradictory to the word of God. They always stressed that "you have to listen to whatever your pastor says". It was as if the pastor was telling them the problems that the church was having.”

Frank, you’ve never seen this before in Praise Chapel? You’ve never heard things like, “submitting unto your pastor is the same as submitting unto the Lord.” You’ve never heard them hammer away with Hebrews 13:7 and then demand obedience? Or do they go about it a bit more subtly, yet insist on this obedience nonetheless?

I do not consider PC to be a “denomination” either. It is not a denomination, it is a cult. It is a cult with a Pentecostal slant, however PC does not have the same structure, nor any recognized safeguards as do traditional Pentecostal churches. The structure PC has is right out of Potter’s House. Larry Neville worked with Wayman Mitchell for at least 12 years time. Are you telling me that absolutely no influence of Mitchell was carried over to PC? Not even the Headship Doctrine? No, PC is not under CFM, they are under Family of Fellowships of Churches and Ministries International.

I asked someone to explain the headship Doctrine, or more specifically, what is known in both Praise Chapel and Potter’s Hose as “Submission unto Headship.” I do not need to run a google search to determine what that is my dear fellow, as I lived and experienced that first hand. If I need to provide a more accurate description, it was mentioned elsewhere on this board, as indicated: Dictatorship. I would have rather preferred a Praise Chapel explanation because the one in the dictionary is far different than what PC puts into practice. In fact, one would have a more accurate depiction if they were to run a google search on the words Totalistic, Totalitarian, Authoritarian, Aberrational, Manipulation, Coercion, or Cult. But one needs to look no further than right here at Rick Ross to determine the parameters that define a cult.

What I have to say about Praise Chapel is neither unfair nor wrong.. it is just my experience in a cult. I need no further evidence, and certainly will not do any further checking around other than I already have with regard to any of the Praise Chapel churches. No need to fear of anyone trying to draw me back in because so far none of their tactics have worked. Neither the soft approach, the love bombing techniques, nor the hard sell of “Not being right with God,” or by leaving that madhouse was not the right thing to do. I would not ever set one foot in any Praise Chapel ever again. In fact, just the mere thought sickens me.

Quote: “If not go elsewhere, or do something else with your Sunday.”

Why is it that everyone in PC is under the assumption one has to be in church? Perhaps it’s as they’ve told me time and time again, if you’re not in church you are not saved. Well, I do plenty with my Sunday, and I worship in a safe, more traditional location. One that does have the proper safeguards, and measures taken to prevent abuse and spiritual lawlessness.

Frank, my dear Sir. I do not dismiss your statements on a reply by of another poster, but solely on my own experiences at Praise Chapel, and the continued arrogant, Pharisee-like, and manipulative attitudes of some of the others who came on here representing their church. What a testimony that is!

I need to add a correction as to my last post with mention of Hebrews 13:7, which I should have more accurately included Hebrews 13:17, as to what they continually hammer away with at Praise Chapel. It states:

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.”

Now, take this out of context as they do at PC, and you have blind obedience as what was required by such notorious ones as Jim Jones and David Koresh. Keep it in proper context and what it is talking about is respect. But, at PC, the inference is that obedience to your pastor is equated with serving God and obedience to God. After all, they heavily hint at being specially anointed, and recipients of Special Revelations directly from the Lord Himself.

Not hardly.

Dude, you need to chill a bit. You seem so angry every time you post. Is there any love going on in that little heart of yours? I have been quietly watching the ranting and raving going on from all sides involved here and am amazed at the bitterness that I read in your words. I believe it is the Word of God that tells us to make sure that no root of bitterness remain. It seems that much more than a root remains. It appears that an entire forest is growing inside of you. If you are in a healthy church, praise God! If you aren't; find one. It is amazing how no matter what is spoken regarding PH or PC you flip your lid. You want to preach quickly, but you fail to take a look at the very obvious log in your own eye. Let God help you with the bitterness man. You appear to be an instigator rather than a solver of problems. You are quite good at twisting the words of others for your own agenda, so I am sure that you will do your best here too. Prior to being saved, I used to take great pride in attacking and degrading others based on the words they spoke, but God has helped me find a way to help others rather than rant and rave about how unfair they might be. So, if it brings you pleasure, go ahead and fire your shots. I will try to refrain from making you look like the bitter person you are truly making yourself out to be. Preach on preacher!

Sorry Hawk, you have your mind made up that Praise Chapel is a cult regardless of what anyone else says. Yes, there are carry-overs from Mitchell's teachings in CFM present in some PC churches. I have known some of these CFM pastors for over 25 years and can tell you for certain that they didn't distance themselves from Mitchell's teachings overnight. One of them I visited his church about 10 years ago and I was real put off by the fact that he had fought against those who pulled out of CFM in 1990, especially one local pastor whose church he attempted to split when that pastor joined up with Ron Jones. Then he himself pulled out of CFM but the truth is when he joined Praise Chapel it was like Wayman Mitchell was still behind the scenes running things because it was the same message full of abusive control blather with the headship garbage and the tithes stuff to no end and on and on and really it was just another CFM church but Mitchell wasn't getting any money from them. When I visted again 5 years later when I heard his church had really changed and his mnistry was so different I was skeptical. It was still a PC church, yet his message was toned down considerably. He no longer hammered the headship stuff and no guilt trip crap about tithes or other control stuff. I was like, "What happened to this guy?" I visit his church every so often and he just doesn't seem like he was ever THAT pastor who I remember preaching all that CFM Mitchell stuff back at The Door and his later Potter's House plant in the same burg. He didn't seem like the same guy who somehow was still a puppet on Mitchell's strings all the while in PC but not sending any tithes to Prescott.

The other guy in AZ he was an early convert of Mitchell's who planted a number of churches over the years. He pulled his church and hooked up with the Neville's, who I honestly know little about except that they were once part of Foursquare and then CFM when Mitchell pulled 'his' churches out and went on his own with the CFM cult. Yes, you read that right. I do brand CFM a cult because they are all streamlined per Mitchell to carry out his bidding and do all the stuff that you have outlined that you experienced in the PC churches you were part of. I don't doubt you for a minute, because I know a lot of those guys who left CFM don't want to submit to a headship figure like Mitchell, yet they themselves want to set themselves up as a figurehead of the same sort so they can control people and have lots of $. But, like I said, there are exceptions and that is the two PC churches I mention whose pastors and cities I will not name. One pulled out of PC and the other one is a very big church. The pastor there has a reputation from his days before Mitchell as a very rough and tough fellow. He is no pushover now, but I can tell you this, he is NOT the same man I knew 25 years ago who planted a Door fellowship in a neighboring city where he hammered his congregation with Mitchell's de-program, re-program pseudospiritual psychological mind rape every time the church doors swung open. I have seen people from his PC church and they are not the spiritual robots that used to be churned out of that pastors CFM church week in and week out. I don't see any of this headship junk or any of the other trash that was once the thrust of his ministry. Maybe this church/pastor is in transition - I haven't a clue about that and I aint gonna ask. All I know is I have seen this guy over the last couple of years, heard him preach and teach, saw him downtown a few times and even went to his home and he just doesn't fit the mold of the PC stuff that you experienced at all and he is as far removed from the CFM core doctrines as you could possibly get and still be a Pentecostal preacher. I don't see some hateful judgemental guy when I see him, what I see is a guy who really loves Jesus and one who loves people. Anyone can talk that talk, but this guy walks the talk and the walk.

I aint taking up for PC because I don't defend denominations. They're all whacked somewhere because people run them. I could say all Baptist churches are abusive cults because the one I grew up in had problems, but then that's like saying all fruit is bad because I bit into an apple and found half a worm. Not all fruit is bad and not all apples are bad either.

But then I have to remember, you have a hard-on for Praise Chapel no matter what anyone says. Your mind is made up. And there's nothing anyone can do about that. Not even God.

BTW - I am not in PC and I don't believe you have to be in church all the time. I said “If not go elsewhere, or do something else with your Sunday.” because if you don't like a church then do that, just leave or stay home with the family on Sunday or go fishing - whatever. You've obviously moved on and that's good.

Peace

Frank Sinatra:

As has been said over and over again.

Democratic church government through elected church boards and officers that can discipline a pastor and if necessary fire him are a meaningful safeguard to protect people from abuse of power.

Also, financial transparency through independently audited and published reports/budgets that detail all salaries, compensation and expenses from church funds is another safeguard.

Baptist churches, as most Protestant churches, typically have these safeguards.

No church is perfect, but such safeguards are a meaningful way of trying to get things right and keep people safe.

Agreed. I am not certain about PC churches as far as this goes. The one I know in AZ seems to have some kind of board because he said if he did some impropriety regarding immorallity or money he could and would lose his church, so he is not a dictator there.

Quote
rrmoderator
Frank Sinatra:

As has been said over and over again.

Democratic church government through elected church boards and officers that can discipline a pastor and if necessary fire him are a meaningful safeguard to protect people from abuse of power.

Also, financial transparency through independently audited and published reports/budgets that detail all salaries, compensation and expenses from church funds is another safeguard.

Baptist churches, as most Protestant churches, typically have these safeguards.

No church is perfect, but such safeguards are a meaningful way of trying to get things right and keep people safe.

Pgcole:

Quote: [i:fa31062b86]“Is there any love going on in that little heart of yours?” [/i:fa31062b86]

Hummm. Good question. Well, to be perfectly honest, I have no love of cults, that’s for sure. And I suppose that you’ve never heard anything about, “Judge ye not lest ye be judged?” Sorry “Dude,” I don’t feel that I’m quite ready to “chill” yet. Not when it comes to exposition of the truth with regard to the implementation and methodology used by cults such as Praise Chapel. In fact, I am strongly considering becoming an advocate against cults.

It seems to me that you have turned a blind eye to the postings of your fellow Mitchellites such as “@Peace,” “pastor,” “Preacherman,” or “believerof1.” They come on here and believe it or not, they are representing their church… yet there is nothing Christ-like whatsoever in their behavior. What a fine example they set. What awesome testimonies they present indeed. They are in and of themselves the absolute best witnesses to support my position.

And you’ve noticed nothing out of the ordinary with regard to their demeanor, attitude, arrogance, or particular behavior patterns? Nothing cultish about that at all, right?

I seem so angry? Really? Tell me then, am I as angry as the moderator which “@Peace” accused of being so angry in her last posting?

Apparently anyone who takes a position that is not in keeping with what PC wants you to say, then one is just plain “angry.” Well let me put it this way, every once in a while a person may choose to take a stand for what is right, and what they believe in. And, that is exactly what I am doing here. I noted that in Ephesians 5:11 it says, [i:fa31062b86]“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works or darkness, but rather reprove [them].”[/i:fa31062b86] I consider that a good reason to take a stand against PC and cults like it, at least for me it is. Also, I understand that we are to, “test the spirits” in order to determine whether or not they are of God. Using discernment, I have done just that.

If you perceive anger, or if that is what you choose to make of it, so be it. Actually I consider that a compliment. After all, I think the Lord got angry when he found the money changers and peddlers in the temple that were using His Father’s house for their own personal profit and gain. Not unlike PC. (“Follow the money trail.”) If it seems to you that I may have a root of bitterness, well we can all thank Praise Chapel for putting it there in the first place. [b:fa31062b86]Apparently PC supporters also choose to ignore the effects of spiritual abuse, or what being in a cult does to a person.[/b:fa31062b86] But that’s okay, just slap another Praise Chapel label on me and call me bitter. Tell me I’m angry, I’m bitter, I flip my lid, and I have to chill. Sorry, can’t. Might as well throw in a few other PC buzz words such as “rebellious” or being out of God’s will.

Quote: [i:fa31062b86]“If you are in a healthy church, praise God! If you aren't; find one.”[/i:fa31062b86]

Here we go with yet another reference to a time honored Praise Chapel contention.. Okay, here’s how it works once again. According to Praise Chapel (and Potter’s House I might add,) if you are not in a church, you are not saved. If you leave the church, you are no longer under the covering and thus susceptible to becoming backslidden and is likely that bad things will happen to you. Being out of a church equates to being out of God’s will. If you are in a Praise Chapel Church, you must remain, “in the church that the Lord led you to.” A person’s salvation and relationship with God is solely dependant upon being a member of a church. If you are physically unable to attend church, due to a physical handicap or some similar reason, you must still pay your tithes and listen to Praise Chapel sermons they provide on tape or CD.

And that doesn’t sound like a cult?

Funny how the Bible doesn’t say that you must be in a church in order to be saved. In fact, all it calls for is to be in a fellowship of one another which I consider to be other believers. Now let’s see here. The way I look at it, God gave me a free will and allows me to choose. If I want to be in a church, then I can make a choice. If I take your stance and as mentioned by “Frank Sinatra,” then I should find another Praise Chapel. Or, as I have chosen to do, is to locate a church that is along more traditional lines. What is the difference? Let’s review, shall we?

[b:fa31062b86]Does the organization have a clear and strong commitment to a certain project area?

Is there an independent board that accepts responsibility for the activities of the organization and oversees its operations?

Are the financial records audited annually by certified public accountants?
Are copies of the audited financial statements provided to anyone who requests them?

Is information provided to donors about any program that the donors have supported?

How does the organization avoid conflicts of interest?

What are its guidelines and standards for fund-raising?

Is there a review procedure to assure compliance with fund-raising standards and guidelines?

Does the church have a democratic process and elected board, which can hold the pastor accountable?

What are its bylaws? [/b:fa31062b86]

[b:fa31062b86]Is there meaningful financial transparency? That is, does the church publish an independently audited financial statement, which details all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out?[/b:fa31062b86]

One (Praise Chapel) has no requirement that pastors attend any bible college (remember. All PC pastors are “hand-crafted”), no required college degrees, there are no recognized standards or safeguards in place, there is no accountability with regard to pastors, and absolutely no financial accountability. It is run just as a dictatorship, which to me equates as Neo-Fascist rule.

My other choice, and I know that it’s going to be pretty hard to believe, but I’ve chosen a church that does have all these standards of accountability in place. Is it perfect? No. Are there safeguards in place to try to prevent spiritual abuse? Yes. Is there a degree of professionalism and certain standards required to become a pastor? Yes.

[i:fa31062b86]“I want to preach quickly?” “Preach on preacher?” [/i:fa31062b86]

Well now that’s interesting. First of all I am not a preacher. Nor would I ever want to be a preacher. Certainly not after what I’ve seen. I noticed that while in Praise Chapel, pastors generally despise it when one happens to know scripture, and if you question or challenge them on an issue, they become enraged and try to quickly shut you up. Anyway, I will however mention two men of God whom I admire greatly. Chuck Swindoll and Greg Laurie. They are teachers, and while some consider what they do as “preaching” more so I consider it teaching. Though I do not, nor have I ever considered myself to be above anyone else, not a preacher and not a teacher. I’m just a regular “Joe” who has been through some pretty bad spiritual abuse in a Praise Chapel church that is consistent with, and has all the earmarks of a cult. And I take a firm stand against cults.

Quote: [i:fa31062b86]“You are quite good at twisting the words of others for your own agenda, so I am sure that you will do your best here too.” [/i:fa31062b86]

Twisting words? How so? Who’s words have I twisted and explain how I’ve managed to pull that off? Back up your utterances and be specific please.

Quote: [i:fa31062b86]“Prior to being saved, I used to take great pride in attacking and degrading others based on the words they spoke, but God has helped me find a way to help others rather than rant and rave about how unfair they might be. So, if it brings you pleasure, go ahead and fire your shots. I will try to refrain from making you look like the bitter person you are truly making yourself out to be. Preach on preacher!”[/i:fa31062b86]

Humm you seem to make a lot of assumptions here, considering the fact that you do not know me from Adam. Anyway, this brings me no pleasure whatsoever. I just speak the truth and do my best to reveal what a cult Praise Chapel actually is. No matter how much one may try to conceal that fact… the truth remains the truth.

In re: Frank

[i:0c92210ccb]“I aint taking up for PC because I don't defend denominations. They're all whacked somewhere because people run them."[/i:0c92210ccb]

Good one Frank. I can’t argue with that. But my dear friend, PC is not a denomination. If I understand correctly, Denominations are such as Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Presbeterian, Baptist, Mennonite, etc. Again, regular [traditional] Pentecostal churches are nothing like Praise Chapel or Potter’s House. I might also add that PC is not part of Foursquare, although I have heard pastors hint heavily and insinuate that they are. That is false and misleading. And, other than being a sort of oddball (fringe) church, I haven’t a clue as to why they would want to imply that, except perhaps in an effort to draw in unsuspecting members, and to make themselves out to be something [legitimate or recognized] that they are not.

[i:0c92210ccb]“I could say all Baptist churches are abusive cults because the one I grew up in had problems, but then that's like saying all fruit is bad because I bit into an apple and found half a worm. Not all fruit is bad and not all apples are bad either.”[/i:0c92210ccb]

I like your analogies, and that’s a good point Frank.. but only in reference to Praise Chapel, because I cannot comment on Baptist churches. But what do you do when you find that all the apples are bad? I didn’t just find a half a worm, I’ve found whole nests of worms in all the apples. There’s just too much evidence of the same themes and methodology of cult like behavior patters throughout PC.

[i:0c92210ccb]"But then I have to remember, you have a hard-on for Praise Chapel no matter what anyone says. Your mind is made up. And there's nothing anyone can do about that. Not even God."[/i:0c92210ccb]

I sincerely hope that you do not perceive it that way. What I detest is the sin and not the sinner. It is their methods, self-imposed lordship, claims to be specially anointed, abuse of members, and their system in general that I have grievance with. Praise Chapel is a deviation from the truth. If God were to show me evidence that PC isn’t a cult, or in the very least didn’t have cult like tendencies, then my opinions would differ. On the contrary however, I think it just may be God who has shown me what a cult that place is.

[i:0c92210ccb]BTW - I am not in PC and I don't believe you have to be in church all the time. I said “If not go elsewhere, or do something else with your Sunday.” because if you don't like a church then do that, just leave or stay home with the family on Sunday or go fishing - whatever. You've obviously moved on and that's good.[/i:0c92210ccb]

I understand that… but may I mention that is something PC continually drives into people’s heads.. that you must be in a church in order to be saved. Then what about just believing in the Savior, and repenting? I think about the thief that died on the cross next to Jesus.. He wasn’t in Praise Chapel and he didn’t attend discipleship classes. I don’t think he tithed, nor obeyed his pastor as if it were coming from God, or even went to any church or denomination... I consider in my own life, how about just reading the Bible and doing what it says? As far as going to church, well for me that I consider it a place to go and worship and learn with other believers. Why can’t it be so simple like that without all the rules and legalism and guilt trips and manipulation?

Frank Sumatra:

"Some kind of board"?

Do you actually attend this church?

No, I do not attend that church. I never said I did. I said I listened to messages on the web from one pastor and visited the other church over the last few years from time to time when I visit the city where it's located. So as I said, I have no idea as to whether or not they have a board or what type of church government. I just know the atmosphere is far removed from what I experienced when those two men were CFM pastors.