To the Forum:


gene: I think that may have been a result of his anti-hippy days teaching on long hair. Which at that time in history was taught in many Bible believing churches. Why was that? 1 Corinthians 11:14 (New International Version) "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him." Its in the Bible.


Truthtesty:
Try to represent the truth accurately This was in the 70s! In one part it was an attack on liberals. How long is long hair anyhow? Another part was the thiemite crew cut was symbolic nazi-like military submission to Thieme's authority. Thieme even gave Jesus a crew cut. You can see Thieme on the cross with a crew cut in place of Jesus, on that Bereichah picture that Katie drew.

orangeperuviscacha November 14, 2007 06:35AM post:
Some of the things that **************************************************the pictures for the bulletins on Sunday, and there is no question that there would be a picture of Christ on the cross. It would be Bob Thieme’s face and Bob Thieme’s physique, and we always said that it was Bob Thieme on the cross. He would call himself the “Spiritual Atlas of this generation”; grandiose things like that. You can read about narcissism *************************** The narcissist thinks that he/she can only be understood by very special people, and that was totally true because Bob would always say, “My friend, who is very famous for this, and very famous for that.” ********************************** and Bob would go to great lengths to say that *********************************. This was glaring all the time. And the part about having no empathy. He has no empathy for anybody, he is just as cold as can be.

It was extreme behaviour, and even though you won't admit it was extreme, everybody else knows the truth. People with long hair have faith in Jesus too.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


gene: Question: If you hated the church so much? Why did you keep attending? That does not make sense if one hated being there so much. Just the same, your hostility in your approach is noted.


Truthtesty: I have already stated on this forum, that I was a teenager forced to go(1970's). It is true I am hostile to evil groups. I don't see any particular words in those particular statements that are hostile. I just stated the truth. What people should note in your approach on this forum is your endless offerings of non-critical excuses, that you offer in behalf of Thieme.



Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty

It was extreme behaviour, and even though you won't admit it was extreme, everybody else knows the truth. People with long hair have faith in Jesus too.


Truthtesty

People with long hair have faith in Jesus too?

And, apparently... so did certain Nazi sympathizers.

He with long hair may have faith. Yes... But, long hair indicates something is not right with the soul... According to the Bible, that is.


1 Corinthians 11:14 (New American Standard Bible)
"Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him."


What does that say?

Thieme was there to teach the Bible.

Should he have taught against it?


And, you did not answer. Were you forced to get a crew cut?


And, why did you continue to attend the church all those years if you hated it so much?

Everyone can witness to the fact that Truthtesty has many posts which repeat the same theme of commentary - over and over - again.


I finally gave one post with documentation to refute his ongoing claim, and he gives a weak rebuff... then quickly diverted away.

He did not address what was actually said. He gave a speculative quick answer, but did not deal with what was said. Here it is for others to see what he could not refute.





Charles Wesley
Charles Wesley (18 December 1707 - 29 March 1788) was a leader of the Methodist movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wesley



What did Charles Wesley say in reference to the blood of Christ?



III. The Blood of Christ:
Charles' application of the Biblical word "blood" and its accompanying imagery is an important example of his methodology. "Blood" is the most numerically predominant soteriological term in the hymnological corpus; it appears nearly 800 times in the later hymns alone, which is roughly twice the number of occurrences in the Authorized Version of Wesley's day.26 But this sort of language is a shock to modern sensibilities and as John Rattenbury observed, "Today the term 'blood' to some minds obscures what it symbolizes rather than illuminates it."27
Charles' basic application of "blood" was to use it as a graphic synonym for "death." generally against the larger context of sacrifice or reconciliation.28 This usage finds support in NT phraseology as Behm points out: "Like the cross, 'the blood of Christ' is simply another, and even more graphic phrase for the death of Christ in its soteriological significance."
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:uVhd_OHFUDkJ:wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theolog



Note of importance! Truthtesy's favorite kick ball -Dr. Behm? He is referenced in that paragraph. He lived many years after Charles Wesley died. Dr. Behm apparently did not think of this concept of the blood of Christ first. ... (and, neither did Robert B. Thieme).

Note, this Wesleyan University professor who wrote that is referring to Truthtesy's disdained Dr. Behm! Commenting that Dr. Behm was in harmony with Charles Wesley's concept of the blood of Christ. That web page is published in association with the Wesleyan University. As I was telling Truthtesty all along.. Kittel's commentary is to be found in respected seminary libraries and on the shelves of pastors studies who want to better understand the meaning of the Greek found in the Bible.




And, another Greek scholar (who lived before Kittel's Dictionary was ever printed).



E.W. Bullinger.
E.W. Bullinger was noted broadly for three works: A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (1877) ISBN 0-8254-2096-2; for his ground-breaking and exhaustive work on Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (1898) ISBN 0-8010-0559-0; and as the primary editor of The Companion Bible (published in 6 parts, beginning in 1909 ; the entire annotated Bible was published posthumously in 1922) ISBN 0-8254-2177-2. These works and many others remain in print (2007).

In 1881, four years after the publication of the Lexicon and Concordance, Archibald Campbell Tait, Archbishop of Canterbury conferred upon Bullinger a Doctor of Divinity degree, citing Bullinger's "eminent service in the Church in the department of Biblical criticism."

Bullinger's friends included well-known Zionist Dr. Theodore Herzl. This was a personal friendship, but accorded with Bullinger's belief in a Biblical distinction between the Church and the Jewish People.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger






What did a man such as E.W. Bullinger have to say in regards to the Blood of Christ?



"by His blood] Certainly not "in" His blood. Such a thing was never heard of in the Old Testament. It was not "in" blood that sins were purged away, but "by" blood, for blood itself was a cause of defilement. It was by the precious atoning merits of Him of whose death the blood speaks.*


* It is the figure Metalepsis (see Figures of Speech, page 611), by which "blood" is first put for death, and then death put for Christ's atoning merits.
http://philologos.org/__eb-ta/06Intro.htm



What does "Metalepsis" mean?



Metalepsis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Metalepsis (from Greek) is a figure of speech in which one thing is referenced by something else which is only remotely associated with it. Often the association works through a different figure of speech, or through a chain of cause and effect. Often metalepsis refers to the combination of several figures of speech into an altogether new one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalepsis





As you all can see for yourselves. Robert B. Thieme was not the originator of his chosen interpretation of the "blood of Christ."


Truthtesy has been saying the concept all began with Robert Thieme in Houston, back in the 60's. That is not the case. And, according to the fact that Truthtesy is saying Thieme is a cult based upon this doctrinal teaching? He in turn, has declared Charles Wesley, and E.W Bullinger, to be a cult leaders.

Let's be honest here. Thieme did not think of this teaching himself. And, two highly respected scholars in Chrsitianity had also discovered the same truth long before Thieme ever stood behind a pulpit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2007 09:10PM by rrmoderator.

To the Forum:


Dr. Chafer was very familiar with what Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger said.

Dr. Lews Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 127 Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger—which inaccuracy, along with others, he recanted before his death—was the theory that Israel is the Bride of Christ while the Church is His Body. (To see an exact copy of what Dr. Chafer on this in Vol 4, page 127 see [www.withchrist.org] )

Dr. Chafer lists Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger several times Vol. 8, Page 69, Vol. 4, Page 127, Vol. 7, Page 180(twice), Vol. 7, Page 181.

What is noteble in Bullinger's statement is that Bullinger said "by" the blood. As I stated previously, Thieme's spiritual death only theory is invalid becuase the Angel of Jehovah could have died spiritually an accomplished salvation (if "spiritual death only" was the only requirement), therefore literal "flesh and blood" were required for salvation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2007 09:11PM by rrmoderator.

To the Forum:

(Brief summary) I just finished watching Bonhoeffer documentary [www.bonhoeffer.com] . Very intresting.

The Nazis were very involved with splitting the Protestant Church in Germany and created Protestant Reich Church [en.wikipedia.org] . Approximately 20,000 pastor refused to follow the 7000 pastors who revolted aginst the Ayran clause [blog.acton.org]. The 7000 led by Bonhoeffer and others, created the Pastor's Emergency League" which was the start of the "Confessing Church" of Germany.

Bonhoeffer wrote his doctoral dissertation at age 21. Bonhoeffer was hung by the Nazis for his participtation in the resistance against Hitler. Bonhoeffer's reasons for joining the resistance against Hitler were: the Nazis' "War and persecution of the Jews in other words - injustice." "Afterall the presence of Christ, God in Christ, is the presence of peace and justice." "One is not true to Him when one has a lax conception of War or of justice."

Kittel and Behm were not among the pastors of the "Pastor's Emergency League", nor of the "Confessing Church."



Truthtesty

To the Forum:


As noted before Doktor Gerhard Kittel was imprisoned by the Allies after WWII for his collaboration with Hitler. Research continues on Doktor Johannes Behm, although he clearly supported Hitler, as noted before:

"Chronik/Rückblick mit scheinbaren Analogien und ohne Anspruch auf Vollständigkeit"
"Chronicle review with apparent analogies and without claim to totality"

Leipzig, festival organization "with Adolf Hitler for the German people honor, freedom and right!" with "Confession of the professors and intellectual at the German universities and universities to Adolf Hitler and the national socialistic country signed by Dr. Friedrich Alverdes, Prof. Dr. Georg Anschütz, Prof. Dr. Adolf Bach, Prof. Dr. Johannes Behm, .... Dr. Emanuel Hirsch...

Doktor Emanuel Hirsch is also Listed as one of Hitler's theologians. [links.jstor.org]



Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:


Dr. Chafer was very familiar with what Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger said.

Of course he was! E.W.Bullinger was known and studied by many serious students of the Bible.

Quote
Truthtesty
Dr. Lews Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 127 Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger—which inaccuracy, along with others, he recanted before his death—was the theory that Israel is the Bride of Christ while the Church is His Body. (To see an exact copy of what Dr. Chafer on this in Vol 4, page 127 see [www.withchrist.org] )

Dr. Chafer lists Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger several times Vol. 8, Page 69, Vol. 4, Page 127, Vol. 7, Page 180(twice), Vol. 7, Page 181.

Which goes to show. All great teachers made/make errors at times. That is why we have more than one teacher. So, one can balance out the other, and visa versa. I have hear a Berachah ordained pastor correct some of Thieme's teachings. Were we surprised or offended? No. Thieme trained us for such things. Thieme simply disdained stupidity trying to superimpose itself over knowledge.

Quote
Truthtesty
What is noteble in Bullinger's statement is that Bullinger said "by" the blood. As I stated previously, Thieme's spiritual death only theory is invalid becuase the Angel of Jehovah could have died spiritually an accomplished salvation (if "spiritual death only" was the only requirement), therefore literal "flesh and blood" were required for salvation.

You missed the true issue, again. "By" the blood? Yes. That's right. That's what he said.

But? Bullinger also stated what the term "blood" indicated. That, is what you keep blanking out on.


Back then someone could murder a man by strangulation. And? Someone who saw him do it, could say..."His blood is on your hands!"

But? No physical blood was shed. That's what you (and the fundamentalists) keep skidding off the road with.

That is how the word was often times used back then. Its not the way we readily use it today to mean one thing. It could also mean "life." We sometimes say..."We need some new blood in the department." Have fun with that one.


And? If the physical blood of Jesus were to save us? Like the animal sacrifices had shedding of blood onto death, only portray by illustration the atonement ordained of God? Then God would have arranged Jesus to be sacrificed by a means of blood letting.

One more time.... men did not bleed to death on crosses. Pilate was taken by surprise to hear that Jesus died so soon.

Why? Pilate knew what had been done to Jesus. He gave the orders. Pilate knew that Jesus should have still remained alive! For nothing extra ordinary had been done to Jesus. That is why he was surprised.

Men did not bleed to death on a Roman cross. If something unusual had been done to cause bleeding to death of Jesus? It would have been noted by the Roman soldier assigned to see if Jesus were truly dead. God would want it recorded in the Bible.


I can see exactly why Robert Thieme used to get angry at times. If I had his temperment? And, I kept getting told by fundamentalists things revealing a denial of historical fact? And, while being ignored and maligned when explaining the details of what the Bible and historical record reveals? I can see why. That's why I never held it against him.

Now, here's a reversal to your lament of home breaking.


Like said earlier... My Jewish father who used to mock preachers to my face after I became a Christian? He respected Robert Thieme. He liked the way and what RBT taught.

This I did not tell you.. My father was quite a successful man. Not easily impressed. My mom one day told me how my dad approved of RB Thieme.

Interesting... because she used to add in with taunts after I believed in Christ. Robert Thieme helped bring my family back together. I also had been disowned, up until then.

Robert Thieme they could respect. They both could see and know he was a well educated man . And, these were my same parents that wanted me to see Jewish deprogrammers after I told them I believed in Christ...well before I ever heard of Robert Thieme.


So much for that. There's the other side of the story.

In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
Truthtesty

Personally, I would say Thieme's cult is a "sleeper cult". Although Thieme's cult is highly trained to obey the law, if there were 3 or 4 liberal democrat presidents in a row, you would see Thieme's cult become very active in anti-government activities. I don't think Thieme's cult would be so law abiding, at that point it would become a full-fledged destructive cult.

Truthtesy? You must be really counting on others here not to know anything about the ministry if you really think that is to be believable.

Yet, its quite revealing to see what you think. I am beginning to better understand why you are able to hate Thieme the way you do.


Thieme's ministry was not simply highly trained to obey the law.

Many in the ministry were in law enforcement itself.

This is really getting to sound loony. I have at times tried to see things from your perspective. On this one, you have completely gone off the map. If you had attended the DC Conferences like I have, you would have seen men holding positions at the Pentagon. Men who's job was to be defending our land.

What can I say. That's simply pathetic. If you stood before those men and had the mic? You would not be able to look up and look them in the eyes and speak. Sad to see such thinking.


In Christ, GeneZ

Thank you RRmoderators for letting me have my say.

I am now leaving this thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2007 04:37AM by rrmoderator.