Brainout wrote:

[i:0deeb200a4]Thieme also didn’t invent the term “winner”, it’s in Revelation. Thieme also didn’t invent “loser”, it’s in the “lose your crown” verse and other verses like it.[/i:0deeb200a4]

The term “overcomer” (or “he that overcometh”) is indeed used in Revelation. It is a term unique to John’s writing. And from its use in Revelation (especially 2:11, 20:6, and 21:7-8 ) and his first epistle, it obviously includes all believers. As far as the term “loser” goes, no such term is ever used to describe believers. It is certainly true that a believer can lose rewards (as in scriptures like Rev 3:11 and 1 Cor 3:10-15), but is there even one Christian who serves the Lord [i:0deeb200a4]perfectly[/i:0deeb200a4], who [i:0deeb200a4]always [/i:0deeb200a4]serves with the right motives, and who [i:0deeb200a4]never [/i:0deeb200a4]misses an opportunity from the Lord to serve Him? We [i:0deeb200a4]all [/i:0deeb200a4]lose opportunities to serve and gain rewards, no matter how spiritual we are. If you’re going to draw this dividing line of winner/loser through the Body of Christ, how do you know where to draw it? How do you know if you’re measuring up? How can you ever have any real confidence that you won’t end up as one of the lowly “losers,” “swine,” and “naked peasants” for all eternity? How can you be sure you won’t be “shrinking in shame” when the Lord returns?

The Lord has already promised us that anyone who believes in Him will not be ashamed. We will all have great joy at His return.

[b:0deeb200a4]Rom 9:33 [/b:0deeb200a4]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[b:0deeb200a4]Rom 10:11 [/b:0deeb200a4]For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And [i:0deeb200a4]every [/i:0deeb200a4]believer will have a measure of reward when the Lord returns. The Lord will remember even the smallest act of any of His children done in His service.

[b:0deeb200a4]Mat 10:42 [/b:0deeb200a4]And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

[b:0deeb200a4]Mark 9:41 [/b:0deeb200a4]For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

[b:0deeb200a4]1 Cor 4:5[/b:0deeb200a4] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and [b:0deeb200a4]then [/b:0deeb200a4][b:0deeb200a4]shall [u:0deeb200a4]every man[/u:0deeb200a4] have praise of God[/b:0deeb200a4].

Galiban wrote:

[i:0deeb200a4]Not loss of salvation but the actual loss of [b:0deeb200a4]rewards [/b:0deeb200a4]in the eternal state. They will be in heaven but not receive their [b:0deeb200a4]inheritance[/b:0deeb200a4].[/i:0deeb200a4]

There are rewards for faithful Christian service which we can lose, and there is also the “reward of the inheritance,” which is reserved in heaven for every believer, who is an heir and joint-heir with Christ. An inheritance is received by the heir simply because he is the son of the King. Every Christian is a child of God possessing His perfect righteousness, and can never forfeit their inheritance.

[i:0deeb200a4]Galatians 5:13-21 Does a great job of explaining the concept of a “loser believer”. First
Paul states that the Galatians should not use their freedom to operate in the flesh. At the end he states that those who practice such things that are listed in the scripture [b:0deeb200a4]will not inherit the Kingdom of God[/b:0deeb200a4].[/i:0deeb200a4]

[b:0deeb200a4]Rom 8:16-17 [/b:0deeb200a4]The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the [b:0deeb200a4]children of God[/b:0deeb200a4]: and if children, then heirs; [b:0deeb200a4]heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ[/b:0deeb200a4]; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are all heirs of God. And this can never change.

[b:0deeb200a4]Eph 1:11-14 [/b:0deeb200a4]In whom also we [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]have[/u:0deeb200a4] obtained [/b:0deeb200a4]an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]sealed[/u:0deeb200a4] with that [u:0deeb200a4]Holy Spirit[/u:0deeb200a4] of [u:0deeb200a4]promise[/u:0deeb200a4][/b:0deeb200a4], which is the [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]earnest[/u:0deeb200a4] of our inheritance [/b:0deeb200a4]until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We have already obtained our inheritance. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the promise and guarantee of an eternal heavenly inheritance for every believer.

[b:0deeb200a4]1 Peter 1:3-4[/b:0deeb200a4] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]reserved[/u:0deeb200a4] in heaven for you[/b:0deeb200a4],

Our Heavenly father has already begotten us unto an incorruptible, undefiled inheritance that “fadeth not away.” We are [i:0deeb200a4]all [/i:0deeb200a4]His heirs. Our inheritance is [i:0deeb200a4]reserved [/i:0deeb200a4]in heaven for us. It cannot be lost.

[b:0deeb200a4]Heb 9:15 [/b:0deeb200a4]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that [b:0deeb200a4]by means of death[/b:0deeb200a4], for the [b:0deeb200a4]redemption of the transgressions[/b:0deeb200a4] that were under the first testament, they [b:0deeb200a4]which are called[/b:0deeb200a4] might receive the [u:0deeb200a4][b:0deeb200a4]promise[/b:0deeb200a4][/u:0deeb200a4] of eternal inheritance.

Through the redemption of transgressions accomplished by Christ in His death of the Cross, “they which are called” (all believers) receive the [i:0deeb200a4]promise [/i:0deeb200a4]of eternal inheritance. This is a promise from God. And His promises cannot be broken.

[b:0deeb200a4]Col 3:23-24 [/b:0deeb200a4]And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; [u:0deeb200a4][b:0deeb200a4]knowing[/b:0deeb200a4][/u:0deeb200a4] that of the Lord ye [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]shall[/u:0deeb200a4] receive [/b:0deeb200a4]the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

We have the complete assurance that we will indeed receive our eternal inheritance.

[b:0deeb200a4]Col 1:12-13 [/b:0deeb200a4]Giving thanks unto the Father, which [b:0deeb200a4][u:0deeb200a4]hath made[/u:0deeb200a4] us meet to be partakers of the inheritance [/b:0deeb200a4]of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

We were already made fit to receive the inheritance the day we were delivered from darkness and translated into the kingdom of Christ. All believers are translated into the kingdom the moment they believe. Anyone who does not inherit the kingdom is an unbeliever. Your statement that there are Christians who do not inherit the Kingdom is an impossibility.

Ephesians wrote:

[i:0deeb200a4]I do believe that we have an [b:0deeb200a4]inheritance[/b:0deeb200a4], which is those very [b:0deeb200a4]rewards [/b:0deeb200a4]we speak of, and the “loser” believer will miss out on those…[/i:0deeb200a4]

An inheritance given to a son and heir is not the same as rewards given for faithful service. The king’s heir inherits the kingdom regardless of his maturity or immaturity. We are warned about losing rewards. But we are never warned once about losing the inheritance. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Galiban wrote:

[i:0deeb200a4]Lastly, there is a race that is set before us to be run, (Hebrews 12:1) and in a race there are losers.[/i:0deeb200a4]

Galiban (the [i:0deeb200a4]theologian[/i:0deeb200a4]), we certainly have a race to run, but we are not racing against each other. We are not in competition. As Paul said, “work out your own salvation.” We are to “fight the good fight” and “war a good warfare,” but our warfare is not with other believers.

[i:0deeb200a4]A “loser” believer is an incredible analogy to drive home and have impact on a person that does not [b:0deeb200a4]maintain the fellowship [/b:0deeb200a4]with God above[/i:0deeb200a4]

In all the passages you’ve cited, where is “maintaining fellowship” even mentioned?

Galiban wrote:

[i:9596f4e4b7]Galatians 5:13-21 Does a great job of explaining the concept of a “loser believer”. First
Paul states that the Galatians should not use their freedom to operate in the flesh. At the end he states that those who practice such things that are listed in the scripture [b:9596f4e4b7]will not inherit the Kingdom of God[/b:9596f4e4b7].[/i:9596f4e4b7]

[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:13 [/b:9596f4e4b7]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:14 [/b:9596f4e4b7]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:15 [/b:9596f4e4b7]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:16 [/b:9596f4e4b7]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:17 [/b:9596f4e4b7]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:18 [/b:9596f4e4b7]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:20 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[b:9596f4e4b7]Gal 5:21 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In verses 13-18, Paul is exhorting the brethren to live spiritual lives and forsake the carnality of the world. And in verses 19-21, he is describing the unbelieving world, not the Church. Every child of God is promised that he will inherit the Kingdom. If you are not an heir of the Kingdom, you are not a child of God. Paul gives very similar descriptions of the unbelieving world in Ephesians, Colossians, and 1 Corinthians, as does John in Revelation.

[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 5:5[/b:9596f4e4b7] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any [b:9596f4e4b7][u:9596f4e4b7]inheritance[/u:9596f4e4b7] in the [u:9596f4e4b7]kingdom[/u:9596f4e4b7] of Christ and of God[/b:9596f4e4b7].
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 5:6 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the [b:9596f4e4b7]children of disobedience[/b:9596f4e4b7].
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 5:7[/b:9596f4e4b7] Be not [u:9596f4e4b7][b:9596f4e4b7]ye[/b:9596f4e4b7][/u:9596f4e4b7] therefore partakers with [u:9596f4e4b7][b:9596f4e4b7]them[/b:9596f4e4b7][/u:9596f4e4b7].
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 5:8 [/b:9596f4e4b7]For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

In verse 7, “[i:9596f4e4b7]ye[/i:9596f4e4b7]” of course refers to the brethren, and “[i:9596f4e4b7]them[/i:9596f4e4b7]” refers to the “children of disobedience” (unbelievers). The “children of disobedience” are the “unclean” “whoremongers” and “idolaters” who have no inheritance in the kingdom, and we are not to be “partakers with them” in their rebellion against God. Again, the difference between inheriting the Kingdom and not inheriting the Kingdom is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever.

[b:9596f4e4b7]Col 3:5 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[b:9596f4e4b7]Col 3:6 for which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the [u:9596f4e4b7]children of disobedience[/u:9596f4e4b7]:[/b:9596f4e4b7]
[b:9596f4e4b7]Col 3:7[/b:9596f4e4b7] in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Here we see another similar description of the unbelieving world, the “children of disobedience.” And Paul is once again exhorting the brethren to forsake evil of the world.

[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 2:1[/b:9596f4e4b7] And you hath he quickened, [b:9596f4e4b7]who were dead in trespasses and sins[/b:9596f4e4b7]
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 2:2[/b:9596f4e4b7] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the [b:9596f4e4b7]children of disobedience[/b:9596f4e4b7]:
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 2:3 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the [b:9596f4e4b7]children of wrath[/b:9596f4e4b7], even as others.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 2:4 [/b:9596f4e4b7]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[b:9596f4e4b7]Eph 2:5[/b:9596f4e4b7] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

And here we have another reference to the “children of disobedience” and the “children of wrath,” who live in the lusts of their flesh. Paul is reminding the saints that they are no longer the children of disobedience and wrath, and they should no longer be living in the flesh.

[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 6:9 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Know ye not that [b:9596f4e4b7]the [u:9596f4e4b7]unrighteous[/u:9596f4e4b7] shall not [u:9596f4e4b7]inherit[/u:9596f4e4b7] the [u:9596f4e4b7]kingdom[/u:9596f4e4b7] of God[/b:9596f4e4b7]? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 6:10 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 6:11 [/b:9596f4e4b7][b:9596f4e4b7]And such [u:9596f4e4b7]were[/u:9596f4e4b7] some of you: [u:9596f4e4b7]but[/u:9596f4e4b7] ye are [u:9596f4e4b7]washed[/u:9596f4e4b7], but ye are [u:9596f4e4b7]sanctified[/u:9596f4e4b7], but ye are [u:9596f4e4b7]justified[/u:9596f4e4b7] [/b:9596f4e4b7]in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul states that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And then he gives a very similar description of them as in the above passages. He then reminds the saints that they were once in this same state, but they no longer are, since they are washed, sanctified, and justified.

Revelation 21:7-8 makes this issue crystal clear:

[b:9596f4e4b7]Rev 21:7-8 He that [u:9596f4e4b7]overcometh[/u:9596f4e4b7] [/b:9596f4e4b7]shall [b:9596f4e4b7]inherit [u:9596f4e4b7]all[/u:9596f4e4b7] things[/b:9596f4e4b7]; and [b:9596f4e4b7]I will be his God[/b:9596f4e4b7], and [b:9596f4e4b7]he shall be my son[/b:9596f4e4b7]. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall [b:9596f4e4b7]have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone[/b:9596f4e4b7]: which is the [b:9596f4e4b7]second death[/b:9596f4e4b7].

Here John makes an identical distinction to Paul’s, between the church and the unbelieving world. He contrasts the overcomer with those whose fate is the second death. As noted already, what is said of the overcomer here is true of all believers. And the overcomers (believers) are being contrasted with those who are headed for the lake of fire (unbelievers).

One of the most simple and easily understood principles of Scripture is this: Believers inherit the Kingdom, and unbelievers do not.

[b:9596f4e4b7]Mat 25:31 [/b:9596f4e4b7]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[b:9596f4e4b7]Mat 25:32 [/b:9596f4e4b7]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[b:9596f4e4b7]Mat 25:33 [/b:9596f4e4b7]And he shall set the [b:9596f4e4b7]sheep [/b:9596f4e4b7]on his right hand, but the [b:9596f4e4b7]goats [/b:9596f4e4b7]on the left.
[b:9596f4e4b7]Mat 25:34 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, [b:9596f4e4b7][u:9596f4e4b7]inherit[/u:9596f4e4b7] the [u:9596f4e4b7]kingdom[/u:9596f4e4b7] prepared for [u:9596f4e4b7]you[/u:9596f4e4b7] from the foundation of the world[/b:9596f4e4b7]: ...

[b:9596f4e4b7]Mat 25:41 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

All the sheep, with no exceptions, inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:50 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Now this I say, brethren, that [b:9596f4e4b7][u:9596f4e4b7]flesh and blood[/u:9596f4e4b7] cannot [u:9596f4e4b7]inherit[/u:9596f4e4b7] the [u:9596f4e4b7]kingdom[/u:9596f4e4b7] of God[/b:9596f4e4b7]; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:51 [/b:9596f4e4b7]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:52 [/b:9596f4e4b7]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:53 [/b:9596f4e4b7]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:54[/b:9596f4e4b7] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:55[/b:9596f4e4b7] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:56 [/b:9596f4e4b7]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[b:9596f4e4b7]1 Cor 15:57 [/b:9596f4e4b7]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This promise of the future resurrection and inheriting the kingdom of God is for [i:9596f4e4b7]all [/i:9596f4e4b7]believers. This idea of some Christians not inheriting the Kingdom is simply absurd. This is yet another result of Thieme’s convoluted doctrinal system. The vast majority of Christians throughout history knew no Greek or Hebrew, but they certainly knew they would inherit the Kingdom.

Liberty

To the Forum:

I offer this Chafer excerpt as support to my previous post on Posted: 05-13-2007 09:28 AM


The following is an excerpt from Lewis Sperry Chafer's VIIth volume "Doctrinal summarization" of the 8 volume set "Systematic
Theology" p 108-109

Quote

DAYS
A considerable number of specific days is mentioned in the Bible and these are for the most part themes of prophecy. All of them may well be considered separately.
1. CREATION. Genesis clearly declares that there were six successive days in which God created the heavens and the earth of today. [b:464e532529]The best of scholars have disagreed on whether these are literal twenty-four hour periods or vast periods of time.[/b:464e532529] From the standpoint of the ability of God, there is no question to be raised since He must be able to create all things in the briefest time. A literal twenty-four hour period seems to be implied when each is measured by words like, "And the evening and the morning were the first day," etc. On the other hand, it is reflected in nature that much time has passed since the forming of material things, and the Bible does use the word day symbolically when referring to a period of time. The coming kingdom of a thousand years is styled The Day of the Jehovah. Any point of time throughout the present age is known as the day of salvation. Peter declares: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8 ). So, also, Christ represented the present age as the hour that was coming "and now is" (cf. John 5: 25-28 ).

Clearly Chafer teaches that "day/yowm" interpretation [u:464e532529]is at best controversial[/u:464e532529] among the best scholars. Thieme jumps to a premature conclusion for 1 side of the arguement with extreme prejudice, to create a "Thieme doctrine" which divides and disassociates the physical aspects from spiritual aspects of Jesus' death. In doing so Thieme attacks basic christian belief from top to bottom (including attacking what Chafer said). Thieme attacked bleeding heart liberal christians(who still had faith in Jesus as saviour by the way) for Thieme's political reich-wing agenda. Thieme "chooses" interpretations to push his extreme political agenda through Christianty. It was Thieme's friend Barry Goldwater (You remember Barry Goldwater wanted to use tactical nukes in Vietnam) who was defeated by [u:464e532529]CATHOLIC[/u:464e532529] J. F. Kennedy. After Goldwater's defeat Thieme's teachings changed. If you can control christian belief in America, you can control politics in America. What better way of getting "Christian Americans" to automatically vote Republican than to conquer "liberal christianity" and create a christian political mind numbing cult. This was Thieme's attempt at being an imperialist conquerer. And look at the USA today, the USA has destroyed Iraq. Syria and Iran are not far behind. Just as Thieme preached back in the 60's, 70's, etc... Barabara Bush and George Bush I live less than 2 miles from Berachah today. Barbara for a known fact attended Berachah at 1 point.

As Chafer said [u:464e532529][b:464e532529]"Where God is silent the devout mind should hesitate to intrude"[/b:464e532529][/u:464e532529]


(copy of my previous post as it might be confusing to try to reference back and forth)

Quote

Posted: 05-13-2007 09:28 AM

To the Forum:

Here is an excerpt from Thieme's "Blood of Christ" Rev. 1973:

Quote:

Quote

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SPIRITUAL DEATH OF CHRIST
The least understood of the seven types of death* in Scripture is spiritual death. Spiritual death is SEPARATION FROM GOD IN TIME. It dates back to the DAY on which Adam, of his own free will, chose to disobey God. At that very moment of his fall he died spiritually and was separated from God immediately; for God had warned Adam, "... In the DAY that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt die" (Gen. 2:17). The literal Hebrew translation is: "... In the DAY that thou eatest thereof, dying [spiritual death] thou shalt die [physical death]." Now, the day he ate of the fruit, he did not drop dead; in fact, he did not die physically until 930 years after he sinned (Gen. 5:5). When the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), it refers to SPIRITUAL DEATH! Physical death is not the penalty of sin! Therefore, it is the spiritual death of Christ which paid for our sins, not His physical death. PHYSICAL DEATH IS A RESULT OF SPIRITUAL DEATH: BUT PHYSICAL DEATH IS NEVER SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Truthtesty: Notice Thieme capitalized DAY.

Truthtesty: Thieme's extremist literal interpretation of the word Yowm to refer to a 24 hour day is key to Thieme's assumption. Although, Yowm is used to represent a 24 hour day, it is also used to represent time or a period of time.

Definition - Yowm
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general)
year
temporal references
today
yesterday
tomorrow

[bible1.crosswalk.com]




Thieme quote:

Quote

Quote:
Now, the day he ate of the fruit, he did not drop dead; in fact, he did not die physically until 930 years after he sinned (Gen. 5:5). When the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), it refers to SPIRITUAL DEATH! Physical death is not the penalty of sin! Therefore, it is the spiritual death of Christ which paid for our sins, not His physical death.

Truthtesty: Thieme dogmatically states that since Adam didn't "drop dead" in a 24 hour period that the "wages of sin is death" is referring only to the SPIRITUAL DEATH and definitely not the physical death. This extremist interpretation of DAY/yowm is the basis for Thieme's attack on most bible believing christian belief for the past 2000 years. It is clear that Thieme is "playing" with what is literal and what is symbolic. It would be just as easy to assume (from thieme's faulty logic) that a day/yowm is 930 years (yowm being symbolic of a time period) and that the physical death(and spiritual death) are literal death in "wages of sin". Instead it was Thieme's ulterior motive to attack basic christian belief, so Thieme chose not to teach that yowm can also be translated time or period of time. If Thieme had taught that yowm could be translated period of time, it would have negated Thieme's entire theory.

Truthtesty: It is more accurate to assume and say "we are not exactly certain" or "there are other legitimate possible translations", than to force a faulty premature conclusion.

Truthtesty: Thieme knows exactly what he is doing and he knows exactly what he is asking for:

Excerpt Thieme's "Blood of Christ"

Quote

Quote:
Apparently few people understand that the blood mentioned in such passages as John 19:30-37, Colossians 1:19-22, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Hebrews 9:2, and Revelation 1:5, is symbolic. It does not refer to Christ's literal blood, and the "shedding of blood" does not mean that He bled to death. I realize that I am "bucking the tiger" when I teach this. It's like taking away someone's good luck charm, for if anyone departs from the old cliches and says the "blood" does not refer to the literal blood of Christ's veins, he is also branded a liberal and/or an heretic!

Walters and Dr. Waite quote:

Quote

Quote:
D. THIEME ERRONEOUSLY SETS UP A “STRAW MAN” WHEN HE STATES THAT FUNDAMENTAL PREACHERS BELIEVE THAT CHRIST “BLED TO DEATIH” ON THE CROSS. ANOTHER OBSERVATION THAT OUGHT TO BE MADE AT THIS POINT IS THAT PASTOR THIEME TAKES PERHAPS HALF OF HIS BOOKLET TO SET UP A FALSE “STRAW MAN OR DUMMY,” IN ORDER THEREBY TO DISCREDIT GODLY PASTORS WHO DO NOT GO ALONG WITH HIS “GIMICKS” AND FALSE TEACHING. THE “STRAW MAN” IN HIS LATEST BOOKLET IS THE FALSE PICTURE HE DRAWS OF FUNDAMENTAL PREACHERS, WHOM HE ATTACKS INFERENTIALLY, BY HIS VEHEMENT DECLARATION THAT OUR LORD JESUS DID NOT “BLEED TO DEATH” ON THE CROSS!

1. FUNDAMENTAL MINISTERS DO NOT TEACH THAT “CHRIST BLED TO DEATH” ON THE CROSS IT IS INTERESTING THAT HE WOULD TAKE SUCH GREAT PAINS AND WASTE SO MANY PAGES OF PRINT TO DEVELOP A PROOF AGAINST SOMETHING WHICH NO FUNDAMENTAL PASTOR HAS EVER BELIEVED OR TAUGHT ANYWAY! THAT CHRIST “BLED TO DEATH ON THE CROSS” HAS NEVER BEEN HELD AND HAS NEVER BEEN TAUGHT BY FUNDAMENTAL MINISTERS IN ANY FUNDAMENTAL CHURCHES IN THE UNITED STATES, TO MY KNOWLEDGE! THUS, ABOUT HALF OF THIS BOOKLET IS ACTUALLY POINTLESS AND REALLY ABSURD! THAT IS, IT IS POINTLESS AND ABSURD, UNLESS THIEME IS DELIBERATELY DOING WHAT THIS WRITER BELIEVES--THAT IS DELIBERATELY SETTING UP A “STRAW MAN” IN ORDER TO ATTACK IT, IN ORDER THEREBY TO DISCREDIT ALL PASTORS AND TEACHERS WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH HIS HERESY.

search "False Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr. " ( [www.biblefortoday.org] )

Dr. Wall dissertation:

Quote

Quote:
Thieme's position evaluated. Thieme is correct in observing that the term blood of Christ is a pregnant term with figurative significance. The problem with Thieme's interpretation is that he restricts the term solely to the spiritual death of Christ and fails to see that it includes not only his spiritual death but also his physical blood and the whole act of dying physically. Such a use of the term is a common literary device in the New Testament known as a “synecdoche,” that is “a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole.”28 Acts 27:37 (A.V.)furnishes an example: "We were in all in the ship two hundred three score and sixteen souls." Here souls is a synecdoche for the whole person. The "blood of Christ" is a synecdoche for the entire event of the crucifixion of Christ on Golgotha, which included the nailing of His hands and feet, His bleeding, His 27 Walter, False Teachings, p. 21 28 Random House Dictionary, p. 1442. 23 blood, all of His physical suffering of the cross, His separation from the Father as He bore the sins of the world, His physical death, and the piercing of His side.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Thieme quote 1973 "Blood of Christ"

Quote

When Christ said, "It is finished," salvation was completed on the cross. Since Jesus Christ was still alive when He spoke these words, even the casual student of the Scripture will note that salvation was completed BEFORE the physical death of Christ occurred, and that most of the literal blood of Christ which was lost from His body occurred AFTER His physical death (John 19:33, 34). Therefore, [u:c226c9fdb9]physical death cannot be the penalty of sin[/u:c226c9fdb9].

Truthtesty: As I have stated before, just because Jesus said "it is finished" while he was still physically alive doesn't mean that the"blast of sin" didn't kill him. People in battle who "know" "it's over" from a gunshot wound, often say they are "finished". Thieme doesn't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the judgement of sin didn't physically kill Jesus, as a process of time and as a part of salvation. Also, Thieme doesn't know for a fact that "most of the literal blood" was lost after physical death. However, there was obviously a lot of blood lost after physical death.


Thieme quote 1973 "Blood of Christ"

Quote

It dates back to the DAY on which Adam, of his own free will, chose to disobey God. At that very moment of his fall he died spiritually and was separated from God immediately; for God had warned Adam, "... In the DAY that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt die" (Gen. 2:17). The literal Hebrew translation is: "... In the DAY that thou eatest thereof, dying [spiritual death] thou shalt die [physical death]." Now, the day he ate of the fruit, he did not drop dead; in fact, he did not die physically until 930 years after he sinned (Gen. 5:5). When the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), it refers to SPIRITUAL DEATH! [u:c226c9fdb9]Physical death is not the penalty of sin![/u:c226c9fdb9] Therefore, it is the spiritual death of Christ which paid for our sins, not His physical death. PHYSICAL DEATH IS A RESULT OF SPIRITUAL DEATH: BUT PHYSICAL DEATH IS NEVER SPIRITUAL DEATH. If it were, members of the human race would die physically at birth, since they are born spiritually dead. The Scripture is very clear that all members of the human race (with the exception of Jesus Christ) are born with an Old Sin Nature and therefore born spiritually dead (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1).

Thieme quote

Quote

"If it were, members of the human race would die physically at birth, since they are born spiritually dead."

Truthtesty: What kind of pretentious illogic is this? Physical Death obviously occurs as a process of time. Adam died physically over time, just as people born today begin dying physically as they are born. Therefore, Thieme's argument does not exclude physical death as a penalty.


The Following excerpt is from Lewis Sperry Chafer's VIIth Volume of VIII volume set "Systematic Theology"

Chafer

Quote

DEATH
Being, as it is, a [b:c226c9fdb9]penalty[/b:c226c9fdb9] for sin, death in its varied forms is foreign to the original creation as it came from the hand of God. Being a [b:c226c9fdb9]penalty[/b:c226c9fdb9], such portion of it as may be removed will be dismissed forever; other portions of it, being eternal, cannot be removed. The entire theme may be divided into [u:c226c9fdb9]three [b:c226c9fdb9]aspects[/b:c226c9fdb9] of death[/u:c226c9fdb9]—the physical, the spiritual, and "the second." Physical death is separation of soul and spirit from the body, spiritual death is the separation of soul and spirit from God, and second death is the final and permanent form of spiritual death if the individual has not been saved from that. To Adam God had said as a threatened [b:c226c9fdb9]penalty [/b:c226c9fdb9]for the sin of disobedience, Dying thou shall die (Gen. 2:17, Hebrew). [u:c226c9fdb9]This judgment, which later fell upon Adam, would have included all the forms of death[/u:c226c9fdb9], even second death had he not been saved from it by divine grace. [b:c226c9fdb9]As God had warned, Adam died spiritually the day that he partook of the forbidden fruit, and thus became subject to the second death. [u:c226c9fdb9]On that day, also, he began to die physically[/u:c226c9fdb9], and, though many hundreds of years may have intervened, he finally perished physically. While this is true of Adam personally, it must be observed that Adam's position as a natural head of the race was such that the whole human family are directly affected by his sin, and thus "death passed upon all men" (Rom. 5:12).[/b:c226c9fdb9] The initial, single sin of Adam is the cause, or occasion, for the [b:c226c9fdb9]penalty[/b:c226c9fdb9] of death in all its forms falling universally upon all the members of the human race. The fact that death in its varied forms descends upon the race calls for a separate consideration of the relation each form of death sustains to mankind as originating in Adam's one initial sin.

1. PHYSICAL. That great feature of human experience—physical death—is described in respect to its cause in Romans 5:12-14: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." In this passage it will be seen that sin did not originate with Adam in Eden, but as a tragic thing which had already become the occasion for the fall of Satan and many angels it found entrance into the world through the one man, Adam, and from Adam to the race in his loins. [u:c226c9fdb9]In the instance of [b:c226c9fdb9]physical death [/b:c226c9fdb9]all men partake of the [b:c226c9fdb9]penalty[/b:c226c9fdb9], because of the fact that in the divine reckoning all men shared as participants in Adam's first sin by being, las they were, represented in his natural headship.[/u:c226c9fdb9] The phrase, for that all have sinned, has too often been supposed to refer to the personal sins of all men within their lifetime. In the passage quoted above, however, it may be seen that the Apostle makes special effort to resist the idea that this form of death is due to personal sins. Physical death, he points out, is not due to the breaking of the law, for men died before the law was given; nor is it due to willful disobedience such as characterized Adam's sin, since those—infants and unaccountable persons—die who do not sin willfully as Adam did. [u:c226c9fdb9]It only remains, therefore, that [b:c226c9fdb9]physical death[/b:c226c9fdb9] is due to participation in Adam's sin.[/u:c226c9fdb9] The truth respecting seminal headship being so little understood, it is not easily considered or accepted by uninstructed minds. As a limitless forest of oak trees may be embraced in one acorn, so a race was contained in Adam. The Biblical principle which proceeds on the basis that unborn generations do act in their fathers, or share in that responsibility which their fathers bear, is declared in Hebrews 7:9-10. Here Levi, who lived by tithes being paid to him and who was a great grandson of Abraham, paid tithes, although being then only in the loins of his great grandfather, Abraham. The passage reads: "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him." [b:c226c9fdb9]So far as Scripture reveals, there can be but one cause of physical death; it is due to the individual's personal participation in Adam's one initial sin.[/b:c226c9fdb9] [u:c226c9fdb9]The participation was universal, [i:c226c9fdb9][b:c226c9fdb9]hence the penalty—physical death[/b:c226c9fdb9][/i:c226c9fdb9]— is universal.[/u:c226c9fdb9] It is physical death which will later be destroyed (cf. 1 Cor. 15:26; Rev. 21:4). This "the last enemy" will be cancelled by a reversing of it; that is, all that have died will be raised to die no more (cf. John 5:25-28; 1 Cor. 15:22). The divine cure for physical death is resurrection.

2. SPIRITUAL. Though spiritual death began with the same initial sin of Adam, it becomes effective on humanity in a different manner than does physical death. The first sin of Adam caused him to be transformed downward into a different kind of being from that which God had created. He, furthermore, could propagate only after his kind, and thus the race was born in spiritual death received by heredity from the first man, Adam. Each person of the race is born spiritually dead— separated from God—and receives that fallen kind of nature directly from one's parents. Thus spiritual death comes mediately through an unbroken line of posterity. [b:c226c9fdb9]Over against this, physical death is received from Adam [u:c226c9fdb9]immediately[/u:c226c9fdb9], as each person dies in body because of his own personal share in Adam's first sin.[/b:c226c9fdb9] The cure for spiritual death is regeneration or the passing from inward death unto life.

3. SECOND. As there is no cessation of consciousness in either physical or spiritual perishing, there can evidently be no cessation of consciousness
in the second death. It rather is the eternal perpetuation of spiritual death—unending separation of soul and spirit from God. The Apostle John writes of the second death and asserts that it is linked with "the lake of fire." The meaning seems to be that those who enter the second death also enter "the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:12-15). A most important feature of this depressing doctrine is the teaching of Revelation 20:6 which states: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." On the general theme of this second death Dr. C. I. Scofield makes the following omment: " 'The second death' and the 'lake of fire' are identical terms (Rev. 20:14) and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is 'second' relatively to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one eternal 'death' (i.e. separation from God) in sins (John 8:21, 24). That the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of Rev. 19:20 with Rev. 20:10. After one thousand years in the lake of fire the Beast and False Prophet are still there, undestroyed. The words 'forever and forever' ('to the ages of the ages') are used in Heb. 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, eternal in the sense of unending" (Scofield Reference Bible, pp. 1351-52).

The death of Christ becomes an exception to all aspects of human death. [b:c226c9fdb9]While He died physically, it was not, as with others, a penalty for a share that He ever had in Adam's sin; for with that He, being unfallen in His humanity, had had no part. In respect to spiritual death, there is no clear declaration of how far Christ entered that realm. He of course did say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). [/b:c226c9fdb9][u:c226c9fdb9][b:c226c9fdb9]Where God is silent the devout mind should hesitate to intrude.[/b:c226c9fdb9][/u:c226c9fdb9]

But Thieme intrudes anyway.

Again Chafer

Quote

"The death of Christ was wholly on behalf of others; yet, while [u:c226c9fdb9]both[/u:c226c9fdb9] [u:c226c9fdb9]the [b:c226c9fdb9]physical[/b:c226c9fdb9] and the [b:c226c9fdb9]spiritual[/b:c226c9fdb9] aspects of death[/u:c226c9fdb9] were demanded in that sacrifice which He provided, [b:c226c9fdb9]it is not given to man, when considering the death of Christ, to disassociate these two the one from the other."[/[/b:c226c9fdb9]quote]

But Thieme disassociates them anyway.

Also, When you look at these 2 versions who's the RE-VERSION-IST? Chafer was Thieme's teacher. Thieme clearly deviates 180 degrees from Chafer. Yet, Thieme would have the average christian second-guessing thier own judgement, through "intellectual" intimidation, instead of challenging Thieme's judgement. Then if a believer happens to strike up enough courage to challenge Thieme's teachings, that believer is accused of being a reversionist AND SHUNNED. Thieme is the RE-VERSION-IST!

By the way, if someone cannot afford to purchase Lewis Sperry Chafer's "Systematic Theology" 8 volume set, they can get the set through an Inter-library loan, from most libraries.



Truthtesty

Did Thieme invent the "corrected translation" he sometimes refers to?

A radio station where I live plays his lessons, and I have heard him often read from what he calls the "corrected translation" of the Bible.

To Mikko,

No, he did not.

My advice to you, if you are interested in Thieme, is to read Lewis Sperry Chafer instead. Also, you should read the testimonials from this website.


Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To Mikko,

No, he did not.

My advice to you, if you are interested in Thieme, is to read Lewis Sperry Chafer instead. Also, you should read the testimonials from this website.


Truthtesty

So what is the "corrected translation," and who wrote it?

To Mikko,

Here's what Dr. Wall had to say about Thieme's use of the label "corrected translation"

From Dr. Wall's dissertation

Quote

Exegesis. Thieme defines exegesis as "the analysis of each verse within its context, emphasizing grammar, syntax and etymology of words from the original language" of Scripture.27 Utilizing his thorough training in the biblical languages, Thieme has produced volumes of materials on virtually every verse in the Bible. Most of this is incorporated into his extensive taped teaching series. This exegesis for the most part is sound. However, at times he tends to overstate the relevance of etymology28 and the significance of Greek grammar.29 Also, as has already been noted, Thieme frequently allows his "categories" to govern his exegesis -- a point that has been illustrated in his exegesis of passages containing the term, blood of Christ.
Another difficulty with Thieme's exegesis comes from the way he frequently communicates his conclusions. His normal way of teaching his
exegesis includes retranslating each passage so as to include his interpretation. [b:b251d1214e]Such retranslations should be called "interpretive paraphrases" or “expanded translations.” However, [u:b251d1214e]he repeatedly labels [/u:b251d1214e]these paraphrases “corrected translations.[/b:b251d1214e]”30 [u:b251d1214e]This is a serious misrepresentation, for it leaves one with the impression that Thieme's interpretation is on a par with Scripture itself.[/u:b251d1214e]
Using his ICE approach, Thieme has made some significant exegetical insights and some logical expansions of orthodox theology, which he calls
"doctrinal breakthroughs." [b:b251d1214e]However, one must be aware of the limitations of Thieme's methodology lest he become influenced more by Thieme's thought forms and the perspective of his personality than by that of the biblical writers.[/b:b251d1214e]

27 Thieme, GAP, p. 22.
28 For example, he presses the meaning of the Hebrew words for faith beyond their contextual meaning; see his book, The Faith-rest Life, pp. 53, 54.
29 For example, frequently Thieme emphasizes that the aorist tense always means "once-for-all" action. See article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist," The Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (June 1972): 222-31, for documentation that the aktionsart of the aorist tense is simple past action and does not necessarily demand "momentary, singular, or once and for all" significance. Stagg supported his conclusions with both specific scriptural examples and quotations from grammars by Ernest De Witt Burton and A. T. Robertson.
30 See examples in Thieme's book, Blood of Christ, 1977, pp. 5, 13, 14.

To read the article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist," The Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (June 1972) you can join a library that offers free JSTOR acess. [links.jstor.org]


Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To Mikko,

Here's what Dr. Wall had to say about Thieme's use of the label "corrected translation"

From Dr. Wall's dissertation

Quote

Exegesis. Thieme defines exegesis as "the analysis of each verse within its context, emphasizing grammar, syntax and etymology of words from the original language" of Scripture.27 Utilizing his thorough training in the biblical languages, Thieme has produced volumes of materials on virtually every verse in the Bible. Most of this is incorporated into his extensive taped teaching series. This exegesis for the most part is sound. However, at times he tends to overstate the relevance of etymology28 and the significance of Greek grammar.29 Also, as has already been noted, Thieme frequently allows his "categories" to govern his exegesis -- a point that has been illustrated in his exegesis of passages containing the term, blood of Christ.
Another difficulty with Thieme's exegesis comes from the way he frequently communicates his conclusions. His normal way of teaching his
exegesis includes retranslating each passage so as to include his interpretation. [b:54b8055a24]Such retranslations should be called "interpretive paraphrases" or “expanded translations.” However, [u:54b8055a24]he repeatedly labels [/u:54b8055a24]these paraphrases “corrected translations.[/b:54b8055a24]”30 [u:54b8055a24]This is a serious misrepresentation, for it leaves one with the impression that Thieme's interpretation is on a par with Scripture itself.[/u:54b8055a24]
Using his ICE approach, Thieme has made some significant exegetical insights and some logical expansions of orthodox theology, which he calls
"doctrinal breakthroughs." [b:54b8055a24]However, one must be aware of the limitations of Thieme's methodology lest he become influenced more by Thieme's thought forms and the perspective of his personality than by that of the biblical writers.[/b:54b8055a24]

27 Thieme, GAP, p. 22.
28 For example, he presses the meaning of the Hebrew words for faith beyond their contextual meaning; see his book, The Faith-rest Life, pp. 53, 54.
29 For example, frequently Thieme emphasizes that the aorist tense always means "once-for-all" action. See article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist," The Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (June 1972): 222-31, for documentation that the aktionsart of the aorist tense is simple past action and does not necessarily demand "momentary, singular, or once and for all" significance. Stagg supported his conclusions with both specific scriptural examples and quotations from grammars by Ernest De Witt Burton and A. T. Robertson.
30 See examples in Thieme's book, Blood of Christ, 1977, pp. 5, 13, 14.

To read the article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist," The Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (June 1972) you can join a library that offers free JSTOR acess. [links.jstor.org]


Truthtesty

Thank you very much, Turthtesty. The quote you provided answered my question and confirmed my suspicions. What prompted my question re the "corrected translation" was something I heard him say vis á vis Isaiah 53. He introduced his reading of a passage from Isaiah 53 by stating, "The corrected translation reads" then he started reading. To my complete amazement, I heard him inserting the name "Jesus Christ" into the passage, and I thought to myself, "Well, that's eisegesis if I ever heard it." Now I understand why Thieme's group is being discussed in a "cult" forum.

Quote
kcjones
...do former tapers have any suggestions on how to pry my wife away from the destructive ministry of the Theimes?

Her mother is a taper as well so my bride has been one her whole life (30+), we live in Houston, but the children (1 & 2) and I attend a local bible church. She doesn't come, says it will screw up her 'doctrine', I try to encourage, but sometimes I just get tired.

My biggest worry is that my girls will get sucked into the trapped these heresies.

Hi, KC, glad you could join us on the forum. It can be very trying when people we love are under the influence of someone like Thieme. A major deception of Thieme’s is his Greek Game (his flawed Greek “exegesis”) and his doctrine of “right pastor-teacher,” which basically go hand-in-hand. The Greek Game convinces the people that they cannot understand the Bible for themselves. And “right pastor-teacher” makes them helplessly dependent on Thieme to interpret the Bible for them. Another major deception is “rebound” and “loser believers,” which also go together. These doctrines convince the people that they are the elite (since they’re the only ones “in fellowship”) and also convinces them that there will be terrible consequences if they leave. The best way to protect our loved ones from deception is to establish them in the truth. If we can show our loved ones how unscriptural these things are, they will be better prepared when they are exposed to a movement like Thieme’s. (For example, we can encourage them to read the Bible diligently for themselves, so they won’t be fooled when they hear Thieme saying they’re not qualified to read it.)

If it’s any encouragement, I was a die-hard Thiemite myself for 11 years. But I had Christian friends praying for me, and the Lord heard their prayers.

Our prayers are with you, KC.

Liberty