I read all the replies on the thread about Grace Church and I know about Grace Church and John MacArthur from listening to him on TWR for over 10 years. If Dr. MacArthur is a cultist, its news to me, his Bible teaching seems orthodox, and I doubt that TWR would allow his programs to air on their station otherwise.

foreverachildofgod,

All I can tell you is that he sounds fine on the radio, and his preaching is "solid" for the most part. I have stories to tell from having attended his church for a few years, and known people who did and left in confusion. I just wanted to see if there are others on this forum before telling my story.

Canuck: Actually, McArthur is respected in mainstream Christian circles. It is the job of a pastor to "routinely criticize [his congregation] for their lack of commitment to scripture." You need to balance sermons on sin with sermons on grace, but you can't have one without the other.

New Life: Very good point. In fact, I would propose that in modern evangelistic theology the necessity and impact of grace on discipline is often misunderstood. I think Jerry Bridges book "The Discipline of Grace: God's role and our role in the pursuit of holiness" is very well done and gets to the heart of it.

profnachos,

I, for one, would be very interested in your story.

Quote
joythruchrist
profnachos,

I, for one, would be very interested in your story.

So would I. I grew up around this "church" and am all too familiar with it. I remember at an early age Sunday school teachers trying to teach an almost paramilitary right-wing agenda that scared the shit out of me, to the point I just stopped going, regardless of any parental consequence. It has the distinction of being one of the only Christian churches to get sued for the suicide of a member. The worldview of this church is extremely depressing, puritanical, and almost devoid of fun. One of the key players, Robert Vernon, has an interesting history. He was one of the top leaders of the LAPD under Darryl Gates, and was eventually demoted for his aggressive efforts to promote only right-wing fundamentalists within LAPD. A thoroughly depressing place that did tremendous emotional harm to everyone I know involved with it.

Quote
shakti
So would I. I grew up around this "church" and am all too familiar with it. I remember at an early age Sunday school teachers trying to teach an almost paramilitary right-wing agenda that scared the shit out of me, to the point I just stopped going, regardless of any parental consequence. It has the distinction of being one of the only Christian churches to get sued for the suicide of a member. The worldview of this church is extremely depressing, puritanical, and almost devoid of fun. One of the key players, Robert Vernon, has an interesting history. He was one of the top leaders of the LAPD under Darryl Gates, and was eventually demoted for his aggressive efforts to promote only right-wing fundamentalists within LAPD. A thoroughly depressing place that did tremendous emotional harm to everyone I know involved with it.

Hi shakti,

Finally, a fellow ex-Grace member! What you are telling me is all too common. I have known a lot of people who, after their experience there, no longer call themselves Christian. But I am still amazed at not being able to find others on the Internet.

As to the suicide case, I was in the same college group that Kenneth Nally was a member of, but he was there before my time. So I knew quite a few people who personally knew Nally. Their idea of "counseling" is to hammer you with the Bible, and if it does not work and depression persists, then you are sinning and disobeying God.

You seem to know about Robert Vernon better than I do. My understanding was that Vernon was the second man in comand when Darryl Gates was heading the LAPD, and I was not aware of the demotion and the accusations of favoring rightwing fundamentalists. Interestingly, he faced a lot of criticism from pro-lifers for being too hard on the protesters.

Digged up some information about the Ken Nally suicide case.

The most disturbing part:

[b:7aa55aef2b]ROLLIN [/b:7aa55aef2b](To Rev. MacAuthur): Do you think the counseling he received was appropriate and good?

[b:7aa55aef2b]Rev. MACARTHUR[/b:7aa55aef2b]: Yes, I think it was exactly the kind of counseling we always do. We've done it with thousands upon thousands of people.

[b:7aa55aef2b]ROLLIN[/b:7aa55aef2b] (To Rev. MacAuthur): But what if a person is mentally ill?

[b:7aa55aef2b]Rev. MACARTHUR[/b:7aa55aef2b]: We simply approach the issues spiritually. We don't refer them to psychologists or psychiatrists or whatever. We don't attempt to deal with them in those terms. The only real transforming, life-changing guidance is that which God provides through his word to his people. Anything else is going to be the wisdom of man, not the wisdom of God.

Why would you consider these churches to be cults? I am familiar with at least Calvary Chapel and have never considered it a cult. It is more fundamental than some other churches, but i wouldn't consider that to be cultish.

Steve

Calvary Chapel is controlled by Chuck Smith and his family.

Pastors typically have no meaningful accountability to democratically elected boards and there is no detailed financial disclosure of salaries, compensation and expenses provided through independently audited and regularly published financial statements.

Calvary Chapel has a history of controversies, which have arisen regarding various churches within its chain of churches over the years.

See [www.culteducation.com]

I have received serious complaints about Calvary from families, past members and pastors and though it is not a "cult" it is troubled church organization with serious problems.

Quote
rrmoderator
Please don't start preaching here.

McArthur is a fundamentalist Christian and has been controversial.

According to his book. [i:cfaa89934c]Twelve Ordinary Men[/i:cfaa89934c]Jesus' not picking any of the Pharisees, Sadducees or scribes to be his apostles was a "condemntation of the Jewish establishment of his day."