rr,

There are two ways to be "interested" in understanding something.

One is to take one point of view and stick to it unless someone offers you enough evidence to make you feel wrong despite the emotional charge people have about being wrong and the fact that you are clinging to that point of view.

Or you can try in earnest to understand the other point of view.

No, he can't. He can't understand that I have some direct experience with them. And he sure won't tackle any substantive issues I've raised [i:42c0de1131] head on [/i:42c0de1131] ... what Durham does, a tactic well perfected by Scientology, is

1. "Dissappear" any statement, question, or point raised that cannot be answered within the Scientology paradigm in a way that is favorable to Scientology.

so....

1b. If I ask the inconvenient question of Durham, [b:42c0de1131] "where are the great minds of Scientology ? [/b:42c0de1131] Durham doesn't hear the question... or his mind has learned to "de-exist' the question as if it were never asked. Durham won't asnwer this question directly, nor will he ever acknowledge that it has been raised. Scientologist are masters of "de-beingness"... problem comes up, De-Be it !

2. Deflect the specifics by chunking up a logical level or two until the new problem is no longer the specific issues raised, no way By Ron! ... it now is "transformed" into a matter of "tone" and "attitude".... as in, The Tone Scale .....

2 b. Notice the subtle slight of hand, we shift from a debate about the efficacy of SSRI medicines, or the accomplishments of the Scientology community... to "where are you on the tone scale with this ?" Well, kinda sorta...

3. If painted into a corner, use Scientology Dodge plan B, "declare impossibility" and slip out the back door before the specific issues start to click into place.... You know, the raunchy facts about who LRH was, the real life that he lived, how exactly the Xenu myth came about...

4. But first, last, and always, play deaf, play dumb, play like you're being victimized.... [b:42c0de1131] Scientology knows how to play that "you're being unfair" card like a riverboat gambler.... [/b:42c0de1131]

durham:

The facts about Scientology and its problems are overwhelming. They have been published through court documents and in the mainstream press for years.

You are clinging to your point of view about Scientology and like a mantra repeating its answers without even seriously considering the facts.

This is not a dialog or discussion and your posts here are hardly even coherent at this point.

Again, why are you here posting?

At this point it seems you are not really interested in anything except posting Scientology propaganda and selling Scientology.

Quote
rrmoderator
Again, why are you here posting?

At this point it seems you are not really interested in anything except posting Scientology propaganda and selling Scientology.

Actually, I think that is my fault. I appreciate that the moderators and senior members have heard all of this before and apologise for provoking what to them is obviously a well-and-truly tired discussion!

The discussion is fascinating for me, a junior member who has been approached several times to join Scientology. And without any knowledge of the group, it is hard to say no. "Get out of your comfort zone," I've been told. How does one respond?

Now I know. I think we need to thank Durham for his allowing Scientology to be discussed openly and frankly. It is a rare opportunity: I understood it was forbidden for members to discuss Scientological principles outside of the official forums of the church without recourse to the words, verbatim, of its founder. So thank you Durham for bringing what you know to the table. I personally feel I can now say no with more authority.

upsidedownnewspaper:

Yes. You make a good point it is good to read responses from people like Durham here to see how they think or don't think.

You are also right though that at times it becomes the same old stuff, repeated over and over again, or "tired discussion."

Well thank you all for your posts - it's been interesting to see people's reactions. :D

Maybe tired for some. Maybe a source of ever deepening comprehension for others.

Why bother with such a discussion ?

In two words, [b:ff2e97928c] Reed Slatkin [/b:ff2e97928c] , the man Scientology would love to forget ... the man who can not be explained by Scientology .... the man who perpetrated one of the largest financial frauds in history outside of the great corporate meltdowns...

An Ordained Minister of Scientology... a man who knew and associated with L. Ron Hubbard... a man who founded Earthlink... a man who embodied all the possibilities of Scientology, who gave millions to Scientology... in other words, a man at the center of Scientology, a man OF the Church...

And, a man who is [b:ff2e97928c] serving 15 years in federal prison [/b:ff2e97928c] , a man who robbed innocent people blind after he had gained their trust, a man who can only be described as a [b:ff2e97928c] psychopath [/b:ff2e97928c] , a man who could be the walking definition of a white collar [b:ff2e97928c] criminal [/b:ff2e97928c] ... a man who is the living model of an [b:ff2e97928c] insane society [/b:ff2e97928c] ...

It wasn't as if Slatkin was a fringe element that hung out at a Scientology center... Slatkin had been down the Scientology "road to total freedom" since he was 14 years old...

So, would anyone care to explain HOW a Reed Slatkin could exist ? Why Scientology never allowed any discussion of the Slatkin matter ? Why Slatkin was suddenly [b:ff2e97928c] "depersoned" [/b:ff2e97928c]... like so many Scientologists who have fallen out of favor, Slatkin, the memory of Slatkin evaporated into thin air ? Why Scientology will only say he had been expelled from the "church" , never having the integrity to say that he had been with the church since adolecence ? Why Scientology will NEVER admit to the depth with which Slatkin moved within their organization ?

You might be wondering, [b:ff2e97928c] how could a Reed Slatkin [/b:ff2e97928c] have passed through every Dianetic and Scientology process, training, grade and yet be capable of what he did ? [b:ff2e97928c] HOW ? [/b:ff2e97928c]

Anyway to summarize - as a Scientologist it can be frustrating to know there are a bunch of extremely useful non-religious techniques that society can benefit enormously from and at the same time so much resistance to really looking at what these techniques are.

Then there are techniques that have to do with spiritual freedom that are utterly mind-blowing and very unbelievable because there is nothing else like it.

I can really understand all the counter-arguments for why Scientology isn't proven and can't work, why psychiatry is fantastic etc - I used to agree with that point of view myself.

But when you have personal experience of it working which can't be explained away by anything other than that Scientology works it gives you a different perspective!

durham:

You are not having a dialog here, but preaching.

Scientology is the "Church of Scientology" and is a religion. Its beliefs are based upon faith not facts.

That L. Ron Hubbard began as a writer of science fiction, and then created a religion with his writings is an interesting connection. Many would say Scientology is largely just Sci-fi.

Your "personal experience" is subjective and claims made by Scientology have been disproven by medical science.

The followers of Jim Jones and Charles Manson also had testimonials based upon personal experience.

If you want to post here please don't offer religious sermons and testimonials. This is in violation of the rules you agreed to.

Look, with all due respect, there is no harm in Durham having his say... even if it is an obviously canned sales pitch.... note well, because this is how you learn the wway Scientology works... by letting the Durhams have their say, and seeing where it goes...

this first thing that comes to mind is that Durham never responds except with insipid, emotionally flat, general responses. OK... point worth noting, the lack of affect, the emotional flatness of tone... the incessant, near hypnotic repetition of the message...

and staying either overly specific, personal, and in testimonial mode, OR, overly gereral.... never the middle ground...

Question for Durham... you say Scientology works.

What does that statement mean ?

How does Scientology work ? How specifically has it worked for you, Durham ? What are the qualitiative differences in your experience of life ?

Frankly, when I spent some time with the New York COS, it didn't seem to be working so well. The lower level COS people were badly messed up, and the higher level staff were arrogant tyrants. There were threatening , paranoid directives put up on the walls. The place stunk of cigarette smoke until the walls had turned yellow brown from it. There was a bookstore filled with stupid books which cost a lot of money. There were COS diehards walking around talking LRH this, LRH that... he ever had a cute little office waiting for him in case he appeared from outer space. It was about the most emotionally unhealthy place I've ever set foot. So yeah, you could say it worked. [b:b502b9c277] It worked well if your goal was to thoroughly fuck people up. [/b:b502b9c277]