Quote
rrmoderator
Prometheuspan:

Frankly I don't see the connection between "cults" and being banned from a message board.

And repeating this doesn't make it any more convincing.

okay. I think its very simple. Why was i banned? VTV claims its because i did not follow their rules. This is patently untrue. I did follow their rules. What happend is he didn't.

I pointed out that he was verbally attacking somebody, and then he verbally attacked me to try to get me to be intimidated and apologize or some such thing.

Merely banning people from a forum is not cult abuse. Doing it because somebody is standing up to cult abuse is more abuse in furtherance of the first abuse.

I was banned for pointing out that VTV was verbally attacking somebody else. I think that is very simple. I was verbally assaulted by vtv dozens of times in that interaction and did not attack him back.
This is a matter of exacting record, and i have linked to the wiki which records that conversation.

VTV has deleted all of those threads from the forum, and used his connections to have the original wiki taken down, in order to try to destroy that evidence.

I think anybody who reads that evidence with an open mind must conclude that I was banned for pointing out that VTV was verbally attacking somebody else, and i think that anybody who
puts that together has a pretty darn clear proof of cult abuse against me.

However, the argument for cult abuse does not stop with me. There are dozens of persons with similar stories who have been attacked on their forums and then banned not because of breaking any rules, but because
in the cult tried ti bully them and intimidate them and they would not be bullied or intimidated.

Banning people alone is not cult abuse. Banning people as a way to cover up, silence, or perpetuate cult abuse is cult abuse.

As this is a pattern which they play over and over and over again, It is quite notable as cult abuse.

I think David Wishes experience are another proof. The right and proper reaction to his complaint if they were not a cult is to walk him through it.

Hes a reasonable man, and if he has put it together wrong i think he could be convinced of this. How he was treated and the conditions under which he was banned are wrong. And that is cult abuse.

No less than 5 threads were started on the forums over a period of 3 weeks to protest my banning, these also have since been deleted. Even the members of the cult knew that it was wrong to ban me and that i had done nothing
to warrant being banned. They also knew me to be articulate and well educated in support of the cults good points and in defense of the cult against frankly misguided complaints, such as communism, or etc. I was 700 posts deep when I was banned and only 20 or so of those involved any kind of conflict.

Even the cults own members thought that me being banned was abusive.

Prometheuspan:

You have not made a convincing argument regarding your "cult" claim.

Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here.

You are angry because the moderators of a message board decided to ban you from their board.

Got it.

But that doesn't make the movement behind the board a "cult."

And frankly I don't appreciate you importing your fight with these folks here. It seems like an inappropriate use of this message board.

This message board is specifically focused on cults, controversial groups and movements.

The Zeigeist group says it's a "movement," but that doesn't make it a "cult."

People have been banned from this message board too.

At times they have subsequently claimed that this board is a "cult."

Being angry about the way you were treated is understandable, but labeling a group as a "cult" due to that treatment is not.

In my opinion your arguments have fallen short.

"These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here."

Please be specific to which criteria you feel are failed and why.


"You are angry because the moderators of a message board decided to ban you from their board."

This is irrelevant. Them being a cult has nothing to do with me being banned from their board.


"Got it.

But that doesn't make the movement behind the board a "cult.""

What makes it a cult is that it in fact does meet all of the main evaluation criteria for being a cult.


"And frankly I don't appreciate you importing your fight with these folks here. It seems like an inappropriate use of this message board."

Either this forum exists to deal with cults or it does not. This is not my fight, and i did not bring it here. It was already here, and I simply joined.


"This message board is specifically focused on cults, controversial groups and movements. "


IF tzm is not in your estimation a cult, it most certainly is controversial.


"The Zeigeist group says it's a "movement," but that doesn't make it a "cult.""

? nobody ever said calling a movement a movement made it a cult?


"People have been banned from this message board too."


I bet its more likely they actually did something objectionable.



"At times they have subsequently claimed that this board is a "cult."

The evauluation criteria would not support that contention.


"Being angry about the way you were treated is understandable, but labeling a group as a "cult" due to that treatment is not."

I did not label it a cult due to how it treated me, I labeled it a cult because it is.



"In my opinion your arguments have fallen short."

please by all means be specific.

And, go read the evidence.

Its quite simple; i was banned from the board for pointing out that vtv was attacking somebody else.


Do you think that is fair? To ban somebody for pointing out that abuse is going on?


Specifically how does my explanation fail to show the criteria?

(in your opinion?)

TZM is a cult. Not because of me having a bad episode with it, but because it does in fact meet the evaluation criteria for being a cult.

Prometheuspan:

Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here.

You have repeatedly failed to connect TZM in any meaningful way with these three criteria.

Regarding ZM, I have not yet found any reliable descriptions or complaints that ZM fits the criteria given by Robert J Lifton, the psychiatrist whose studies represent the standard for assessing these matters.

The information we have so far is the following:

1) ZM groups deleted by German equivalent of Facebook. What I think is telling is how little sensitivity the discussants had with Germany's well founded anxieties about potential terrorism, given both Nazism, and Germanys later, traumatic experiences with domestic terrorism between 1968-77.

These futurologists appear to have showed little care or care or consideration for the price Germany, the host nation of that particular venue, has paid at the hands of terrorists--both Nazis and the communist/anticapitalist/anarchist groups just 35-40 years ago.


[thezeitgeistmovement.com]


2)Fresco recognized as an honorary guide by the leader of the Raelians, a group in the Ross Institute archives.

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

As for Larouche--am not sure how close any connection is with ZM Per the Washington PAC ZM chaper, some ZM discussants seem sympathetic with LR , but some dont agree totally, either.

3)A citation appears to refer to an upcoming debate between Fresco and Larouche but
if one reads the post, it is not news but actually expresses one correspondants hope that such a debate could someday take place. The discussant goes on to say that he or she doesnt agree totally with Larouche but that LR has valuable tools to offer to ZM. Doenst prove an association though.

[www.google.com]


4) Venus Project, of which ZM claims itself the activist and communications arm, is listed as recipient of support from Triodos Bank, which was originally named Mercury Provident and has its origins in Anthroposophy, the spin off of Theosophy created by Rudolf Steiner.

Triodos claimed to have severed its formal associations with Anthroposophy in recent years, but as many former Waldorf parents have complained, Anthroposophists feel entitled to withold full facts from non Anthroposophists--for their own good.

Steiner, like Fresco had the belief that the right planned environment could accelerate human evolution.

[wedreambusiness.org]
So...right now, I see nothing available to indicate that ZM is a cult in the precise sense.

Now..let us look at comments about Jared Loughner the young man in Arizona who is the reported shooter and who is charged with attacking and injuring Congresswoman Gifford, killing a federal judge, and wounding and killing several other citizens, the last of whom was a nine year old girl.


Finally there Jared Loughner. [www.google.com]

But here is where matters become delicate. Proving something to a standard acceptable by law is hard to do, especially in a case like this, namely whether a specific ideology played a signficant and iin Loughner's pattern of behavior

It is possible that Loughner was influenced not by a specific group but by a stew of various and sundry conspiracy ideas available within what has been termed 'cultic milieu'.


Cultic Milieu versus Cults

Cultic milieu has to do with ideas and beliefs outside of the mainstream.

Cults as defined by Lifton, are defined not in terms of unusual beliefs, but behaviors.

Had Loughner been socialized as a Protestant in England during the scares concerning Roman Catholic plots against the realm, he might perhaps have become obsessed with the evils of the Papacy and obtained his material not from the internet, which then would not have existed, but from newsheets, conversation in the coffeehouses, and inflammatory sermons--all of which where the social media of that time.

**My private and non-expert citizen's opinion is that sociologically, ZM and Venus Project do fit in with what sociologists refer to as 'cultic milieu'--a stew of alternatives and ideas rejected by mainstream society--and derive their appeal precisely by being outside of mainstream society.

I wish to re-emphasize that cultic milieu, a term that originated with sociologist Colin Campbell and has since been refined by other sociologists is not the same as cult behavior as defined by psychiatrist Robert J Lifton.

Another point, which is delicate and requires some deep reflection is that socializing within the cultic milieu can increase risk of becoming socialized in such a way that one lets one's caution or critical thinking skills lapse and become more vulnerable to recruitment.

But one need to be in any way involved with cultic milieu to be targeted by a really aggressive cult. As you know all too well, some cults (eg Sharon Gans, Landmark) can be so deceitful and/or intrusive that their recruiters will hit on persons who are no where near the cultic milieu--as in an authoritarian boss hitting on employees to do Landmark or lose promotion opportunities.

There have been comments in the news linking Jared Loughner the shooter who attacked Congresswoman Gifford--that he was supposedly obessed with ZM and its conspiracy theories.

My private citizen's hunch is that possibly cultic milieu may be more helpful in understanding Jared Loughner.

From reports, Loughner was into conspiracy theory material that is shared among very many different organizations and individuals, not just ZM.

As suggestd above, Loughner, already troubled might have acted out violently, referening other material to validate his anguish and behavior had he been living in a different time and place.[/quote][/quote]

Quote
corboy
Regarding ZM, I have not yet found any reliable descriptions or complaints that ZM fits the criteria given by Robert J Lifton, the psychiatrist whose studies represent the standard for assessing these matters.

The information we have so far is the following:

1) ZM groups deleted by German equivalent of Facebook. What I think is telling is how little sensitivity the discussants had with Germany's well founded anxieties about potential terrorism, given both Nazism, and Germanys later, traumatic experiences with domestic terrorism between 1968-77.

These futurologists appear to have showed little care or care or consideration for the price Germany, the host nation of that particular venue, has paid at the hands of terrorists--both Nazis and the communist/anticapitalist/anarchist groups just 35-40 years ago.


[thezeitgeistmovement.com]


2)Fresco recognized as an honorary guide by the leader of the Raelians, a group in the Ross Institute archives.

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

As for Larouche--am not sure how close any connection is with ZM Per the Washington PAC ZM chaper, some ZM discussants seem sympathetic with LR , but some dont agree totally, either.

3)A citation appears to refer to an upcoming debate between Fresco and Larouche but
if one reads the post, it is not news but actually expresses one correspondants hope that such a debate could someday take place. The discussant goes on to say that he or she doesnt agree totally with Larouche but that LR has valuable tools to offer to ZM. Doenst prove an association though.

[www.google.com]


4) Venus Project, of which ZM claims itself the activist and communications arm, is listed as recipient of support from Triodos Bank, which was originally named Mercury Provident and has its origins in Anthroposophy, the spin off of Theosophy created by Rudolf Steiner.

Triodos claimed to have severed its formal associations with Anthroposophy in recent years, but as many former Waldorf parents have complained, Anthroposophists feel entitled to withold full facts from non Anthroposophists--for their own good.

Steiner, like Fresco had the belief that the right planned environment could accelerate human evolution.

[wedreambusiness.org]
So...right now, I see nothing available to indicate that ZM is a cult in the precise sense.

Now..let us look at comments about Jared Loughner the young man in Arizona who is the reported shooter and who is charged with attacking and injuring Congresswoman Gifford, killing a federal judge, and wounding and killing several other citizens, the last of whom was a nine year old girl.


Finally there Jared Loughner. [www.google.com]

But here is where matters become delicate. Proving something to a standard acceptable by law is hard to do, especially in a case like this, namely whether a specific ideology played a signficant and iin Loughner's pattern of behavior

It is possible that Loughner was influenced not by a specific group but by a stew of various and sundry conspiracy ideas available within what has been termed 'cultic milieu'.


Cultic Milieu versus Cults

Cultic milieu has to do with ideas and beliefs outside of the mainstream.

Cults as defined by Lifton, are defined not in terms of unusual beliefs, but behaviors.

Had Loughner been socialized as a Protestant in England during the scares concerning Roman Catholic plots against the realm, he might perhaps have become obsessed with the evils of the Papacy and obtained his material not from the internet, which then would not have existed, but from newsheets, conversation in the coffeehouses, and inflammatory sermons--all of which where the social media of that time.

**My private and non-expert citizen's opinion is that sociologically, ZM and Venus Project do fit in with what sociologists refer to as 'cultic milieu'--a stew of alternatives and ideas rejected by mainstream society--and derive their appeal precisely by being outside of mainstream society.

I wish to re-emphasize that cultic milieu, a term that originated with sociologist Colin Campbell and has since been refined by other sociologists is not the same as cult behavior as defined by psychiatrist Robert J Lifton.

Another point, which is delicate and requires some deep reflection is that socializing within the cultic milieu can increase risk of becoming socialized in such a way that one lets one's caution or critical thinking skills lapse and become more vulnerable to recruitment.

But one need to be in any way involved with cultic milieu to be targeted by a really aggressive cult. As you know all too well, some cults (eg Sharon Gans, Landmark) can be so deceitful and/or intrusive that their recruiters will hit on persons who are no where near the cultic milieu--as in an authoritarian boss hitting on employees to do Landmark or lose promotion opportunities.

There have been comments in the news linking Jared Loughner the shooter who attacked Congresswoman Gifford--that he was supposedly obessed with ZM and its conspiracy theories.

My private citizen's hunch is that possibly cultic milieu may be more helpful in understanding Jared Loughner.

From reports, Loughner was into conspiracy theory material that is shared among very many different organizations and individuals, not just ZM.

As suggestd above, Loughner, already troubled might have acted out violently, referening other material to validate his anguish and behavior had he been living in a different time and place.

[/quote][/quote]

I have to ask, considering what your suggesting here about "cultic milieu" do you believe the Tea Party falls into this category? The Libertarian Party? The Green Party? These are all ideologies outside the mainstream. And members of the Tea Party have been accused of being violent in their rallies and such.

I am just trying to draw comparisons.

Quote
David
I was answering the stated reasons in
[www.culteducation.com]
regarding psychiatrist's Robert Jay Lifton’s book about thought reform.

Make no mistake about it. We are not associating your group by any casually chosen definition of the word “cult”. In your case, the word is abuse. Pure and simple. Yes, your group is a cult, but is a “certain” kind of one. An “abusive” one with thought reform. So, not let us mix words here. I say, “you have chosen” or “can somehow do not understand”, and that you are a danger to the yourself and the human race. Is that clear enough for you? I do not believe you should even see your children until you get help. Is that better? Go to the hospital and get some help.

Your talking for "We". It has become VERY clear that you do not in fact, speak for "We". Your entire argument was based on nonsense. And that has been proven. Mr. Ross sees it. And Corboy sees it. You have not proven any "thought reform" abuse. You have not proven any abuse at all.

And that line about how I am a danger to myself and the human race and should therefore not see my children is absolutely despicable.

Quote
David
“Where is the distinction drawn?” The answer is in the question Neil. The distinction is in “thought reform.” That is the test we are taking and we are going to take that test whether you like it or not! For some reason you do not see the distinction. We are trying to make a new distinction base on this test. We will answer the questions and then, if true, you are involved in thought reform. The one that is not involved in thought reform is going to look better Neil, but we have to get there. The answer to question 1. is yes. and reasons were stated. You went on with this:

Quote
VTV
As I pointed out in my own article about cults the definition alone can be stretched to apply to anything if you are not careful. Jacque Fresco does have admirers but that does not automatically make him a cult leader. It is possible that individuals may take their admiration of him too far but that is true of public figures all over the world. And it is not the fault of a person who did not solicit that level of devotion. The Virginia Tech shooter listed a Megatdeth song as one of his inspirations, this did not make Dave Mustaine a cult leader, or in any way liable for his behavior. You might say that he doesn't have a movement, but Megadeth does have a fan club. So that could also be construed as his "movement". This is what I feel is being done here. Cults are dangerous but misusing the term is equally dangerous.

You responded, “As I pointed out in my own article about cults the definition alone can be stretched to apply to anything if you are not careful”

We are being careful Neil. That is why I am taking this test. I like this test. It seems like a very reasonable test. I like to be able to test things. I think it is scientific to take “this” test. This a short test by a really smart person. My hunch is that he did all he could to make it easy and short to get to the heart of the matter. He has an education, a degree, experience, success and nothing to gain from me, except gratitude and respect. The reason we are talking this test is to see if you and others at TZM are using thought reform abuse on the other members.

My response to the original question presented by Rick Ross was answered completely and correctly. It is possible to be shifted away from the meaning of that paragraph. Neil says that, “This is one of the reasons I find the cult distinction to be problematic.”

He is saying here, what? That he find’s Robert Jay Lifton’s test about, “thought reform”, “problematic”. He must either address the original question or he is incapable of addressing the question. I believe he is incapable of addressing the question and needs some help. I am not calling him crazy, but I am not saying the help he can, or may get, will help him. I am saying everyone is worth a shot at getting better. He appears to me to be incapable of seeing that what we are concerned about is strictly abuse, thought reform and other kinds of abuse, and not semantics. He asks for specifics and then cannot maintain their value and the answer provided. As result, he lies again and again. He talks at people, instead of with people.

The bottom line is that we are talking about thought reform. This is easily accomplished by those with any sort of education in the area on unsuspecting people. It is so easy that many people do it without even realizing they are doing it. Thought reform is very dangerous and should be left to professionals with ethics. We must learn when and how it occurs and learn to take this test honestly and practice it by adding it our own tools for proper communication and protection.

The question was simple:
A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power
I answered the question with this:
Jacques Fresco is such a charismatic leader. On his web page for the Venus Project, it is specifically noted that, “The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project”. Clearly, these are one and the same.

And he said,”By this guilt by association logic”. He is incapable of seeing the totality of all the different problematic association’s TZM is involved with. He is not taking into account that we are talking about thought reform abuse. It has already become semantics for him. He does not get that we do not care about all the things he can think about. We should not be more concerned for his thought process than our own. We are talking about thought reform abuse and how it deployed, how to avoid it, and how to deal with it.

We are worried that TZM is deploying an abusive tactic called thought reform. We are not talking about all the other forums with moderators out there. We realize some of the forums that have anonymous moderators are indeed abusive cults and some are not. We realize that after excessive complaints and facts are presented concerning “abuse”, this is a point where complete transparency must occur. As we dug deeper, we found many red flags on transparency within this group concerning finances, donations, words of no leaders and the truth that there are leaders and directors.

All we are doing is following guidelines of a professional dealing with the abuse of people’s minds, through thought reform. The test was simple.

Understand this Neil
You and TZM failed the test.

In perusing this post which I had missed earlier I realized just how far you were taking this. You have now suggested based on less then a dozen exchanges on a message board that I am not only a danger to myself and to the people of the world, that I should not be allowed to see my children, among other things. I am sorry but it is time you realized that what your doing is wrong.

Quote
David
I quoted you saying you don’t like the test, but I do not care if you do.
Your choices are lying and brainwashing. That means you need help and that no one should listen to anything you have to say until you have been given a clean bill of health.

Pack your bags and go to the hospital. They will try to help you. I caution you. As soon as some daddy out there looses his little girl to your BS, he may come knocking if he sees you refused to get help. And then what? Another Waco?

OK....now we are taking absurd to a new level.

Quote
David
You cannot go around messing with people’s heads after it is has been proven you are. People may not tolerate it and act responsibly and within the law when they see how callously you dismiss messing people’s heads.
You are done.
Understand your position.
You may not lead anyone, but yourself right to a doctor.

It would seem your attempt to hijack this forum for your own purposes have failed.

Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

Jacque Fresco birthday is a global holiday for Zeitgeist called ZDAY.
[zdayglobal.org]

They have tshirts,mugs, and other items with the likeness of Jacque Fresco:
[www.printfection.com]

They have created small idols that represent the likeness of jacque fresco:
[thezeitgeistmovement.com]

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
This is a repost from the main thread on this forum discussing TZM:
Destructive Cult Control

How can cults use communication to control people?

"One example is through "loading the language," a feature of thought reform, characterized by thought terminating cliches. Such cliches are easily memorized phrases and terms that essentially become communication shortcuts or "ultimate terms." This can have the effect of stopping critical thinking and independent analysis, essentially restricting and ultimately often constricting the mind." [www.culteducation.com]

Here is a prime example of the founder of zeitgeist movement Peter Joseph creating a "thought terminating cliche":

Hey Everyone.
Please note that my response actually has nothing to do with the writer in question as he is really an abstraction within a larger context. [We all understand what it means to be a victim of culture and circumstance.] My expression here is contextual to "The Circus" which Sam is "on tour" with. I haven't read his new response nor will I as it is irrelevant here. My overall point is to encourage others to simply recognize this pattern of thought we are seeing grow.

In time, NBC, ABC or the like will be toting this same "cult" rhetoric or something very close to it. So, rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment.

For those who do not know what "The Circus" is, it has to do with blatantly derogatory rhetoric which, rather than addressing a governing principle of a RBE, which TZM and TVP are seeking to create awareness of and institute, it attacks angles which are irrelevant and/or out of context - propping them up as though they mean something - always avoiding the core positions presented by The Movement.

Tell-tale signs of The Circus are labels/contexts like "cult" "conspiracy theorist" "communist" "new world order" "Marxist" "satanist" "theosophist" "anti-freedom" "anti-semetic" "racist" and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.

What you don't hear from The Circus is anything that is specific to the tenets of the work itself. Such as recognition of the problems we consider or the viability of the solutions we offer in a specific way. The Circus will not discuss the Debt Collapse which is not stopping and why. The Circus will not present the gross negligence of having a Market system based on unneeded/yet demanded Cyclical Consumption. The Circus will not consider the impediment of an Infinite Growth Economy and the dangerously wasteful/unsustainable nature of such a practice. The Circus doesn't seem to care that 1% of the world owns 40% of the planet's wealth and that a global Plutocracy is at hand as one child dies every 5 secs of starvation. The Circus will not evaluate the monetary driven psychosocial pressures which generate generation after generation of addiction, mental health issues, violence, familial deprivation and countless other issues.
The Circus doesn't care about Public Health or anything that has to do with social improvement. -Peter Joseph Merola [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Another loaded language phrase includes the classic Zeitgeist, "the movie is not the movement" thought terminating cliche. Basically, the members have been instructed to not consider any arguments about the namesake film of the movement, "Zeitgeist". Here is a member obviously drunk with indoctrination using this cliche in a youtube video:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVKKE8tu8p8]

How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?

Essentially, coercive persuasion relies largely upon thought reform techniques and may also utilize unreasonable fear to compel people to change. Through such a process many can be changed without their knowledge and/or informed consent. This is done in a rigid way that frequently precludes any meaningful exchange of ideas, is fairly one-sided and seems to have little respect for differences. Margaret Singer clinical psychologist and author of the book "Cults in Our Midst" made distinctions between various types of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform. [www.culteducation.com]

The fear tactics Zeitgeist uses is conspiracy. Basically, these people have been convinced that the economic end is near and the goal is to prepare for a violent introduction of a new peaceful unified global order Peter Merola calls "Perfection" and Jacque Fresco calls "Heaven on Earth". A example of fear tactic based propaganda as presented by Stacy McCain:

[theothermccain.com]

What "unreasonable fears" do many cult members have?

These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger. [www.culteducation.com]

How can cults control information?

Information is controlled in many cults by creating strict rules and/or guidelines regarding such things as books and outside reading, television, movies, radio, music and often even restricting associations with anyone who might express independent ideas, doubts or negative feelings about the group. The group and its leader(s) thus may become much like a filter, supposedly needed to help eliminate the "pollution", "poisons" and negativity of the outside world. [www.culteducation.com]

The Zeitgeist forums for discussion is a heavily filtered and censored forum. People will get immediately banned and IP blocked for raising criticisms considered hostile to the movement ( On Jan 14th 2011 blocked and banned: [forum.culteducation.com]). In some cases, complete threads will be erased, or in the case of the radio program used by zeitgeist, complete radio episodes will be removed. In addition, the common use of "thought terminating cliches" by the zeitgeist movement is the biggest form of information control.

Destructive Cult Recruitment

Are cults and other controversial groups deceptive when they recruit people?

Yes, they often are. They may employ deception in the recruitment process by using front organizational names and/or not clearly identifying themselves or their purpose. For example, a religious cult may not even initially advise potential recruits that it has a religious agenda. Groups with controversial leaders may withhold that information and also keep their more radical beliefs hidden or secret until they achieve more influence and compliance thorough their indoctrination process. [www.culteducation.com]

When recruiting members, Zeitgeist does not share its conspiracy aspects and hides its disdain for God and Christianity as a whole. If confronted about the film, the members resort to the thought terminating cliche "THE MOVIES ARE NOT THE MOVEMENT". According to Peter Joseph, the growth of the Zeitgeist Movement is in fact due to the first film, "Zeitgeist". These members who do in fact agree with the conspiratorial and religious beliefs of the founder then use the Venus Project as a tool for recruiting. If you research Zeitgeist "activism" on youtube, you will find them spreading the "positive" outer layers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK3IpvahQqc) while completely avoiding the Zeitgeist Movement inner core beliefs of religion, spirituality, conspiracy, etc.

ZEITGEIST MEMBER ENGAGED IN DECEPTIVE RECRUITING:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGHYW-aErM&feature=player_embedded]

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism

The Demand for Purity

In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil. The good and the pure are of course those ideas, feelings, and actions which are consistent with the totalist ideology and policy; anything else is apt to be relegated to the bad and the impure. Nothing human is immune from the flood of stern moral judgments. All "taints" and "poisons" which contribute to the existing state of impurity must be searched out and eliminated.

Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition.

The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences. The more guilty he feels, the greater his hatred, and the more threatening they seem. In this manner, the universal psychological tendency toward "projection" is nourished and institutionalized, leading to mass hatreds, purges of heretics, and to political and religious holy wars. Moreover, once an individual person has experienced the totalist polarization of good and evil, he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality. For these is no emotional bondage greater than that of the man whose entire guilt potential - neurotic and existential - has become the property of ideological totalists. [www.culteducation.com]

The fundamental premise behind Peters Joseph motives is the "perfect" society and Jacque Frescos includes "heaven on earth". Typically, when confronted with the word "Utopia" however, Zeitgeist members tend to resort to the thought terminating cliche "not a utopia, just something better than we have now". An example of zeitgeist dividing the absolute good from the absolute evil includes a segment (audio was made exclusive only to members that downloaded the program from the official site; once the segment was exposed, the complete radio broadcast was removed) where Douglas Mallette represents "pure evil" as any organization that would target a food producing "facility", these people "need to die". This scenario was in anticipation of what Douglass Mallette thought was going to be a chance for the Venus project to create a test city in Africa with United nations funding in which Dougas Mallette would be in charge of said facility. Douglas Mallette went as far as speaking directly to the United Nations as a representative of the Venus Project. The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").

ZEITGEIST "PERFECTION"-Peter Joseph:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFL7dz2iKyw&feature=channel_video_title]

ZEITGEIST "Heaven on Earth"-Jacque Fresco:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o]

ZEITGEIST "EVIL AND BAD PEOPLE who attack Venus project, Need to Die" (note, the video was not taken out of context, in fact, the whole audio was removed from the venus project spokesman's VTV's radio program list once i exposed this hidden section of a radio program.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Y9KO-l-T0]

ZEITGEIST PREPARE FOR VIOLENCE:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI2o0L8Z4xc]

The "Sacred Science"

The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. This sacredness is evident in the prohibition (whether or not explicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions, and in the reverence which is demanded for the originators of the Word, the present bearers of the Word, and the Word itself. While thus transcending ordinary concerns of logic, however, the milieu at the same time makes an exaggerated claim of airtight logic, of absolute "scientific" precision. Thus the ultimate moral vision becomes an ultimate science; and the man who dares to criticize it, or to harbor even unspoken alternative ideas, becomes not only immoral and irreverent, but also "unscientific." In this way, the philosopher kings of modern ideological totalism reinforce their authority by claiming to share in the rich and respected heritage of natural science.
The assumption here is not so much that man can be God, but rather that man's ideas can be God: that an absolute science of ideas (and implicitly, an absolute science of man) exists, or is at least very close to being attained; that this science can be combined with an equally absolute body of moral principles; and that the resulting doctrine is true for all men at all times. Although no ideology goes quite this far in overt statement, such assumptions are implicit in totalist practice.

At the level of the individual, the totalist sacred science can offer much comfort and security. Its appeal lies in its seeming unification of the mystical and the logical modes of experience (in psychoanalytic terms, of the primary and secondary thought processes). For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be.

Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development. [www.culteducation.com]

Sacred Science is a fundament aspect to the Zeitgeist Movement. Altho when confronted with this information, members will usually say the material is "metaphorical", "conceptual", or "poetic" and not meant to be taken literal in context. First, in the zeitgeist orientation guide, the final chapter called "Functional Spirituality" teaches members "science and technology is divinity in action". Merola teaches people that "science is the tool for functional spirituality". The ultimate moral vision an ultimate science, science running the world and all of humanity thru a unified cybernated computer system and cities built by robots where people will no longer do manuel labor or any other form of job. The founder of the "movement" Peter Joseph himself believes man is god and mans ideas can be godly. In addendum he describes mans divine potential when the create the nuclear bomb. This movement does go so far in overt statement. The idea is that the human "oneness" spiritual beliefs of zeitgeist will eventually lead to this perfect scientific society. Zeitgeist lays the foundation for sacred science in the movie most members like people to watch, but not associate with the movement, the first film. In it, the founder of the movement Peter Joseph teaches that all religions are man made and that the biggest fraud is christianity, namely Jesus Christ. Merola teaches these same principles in radio interviews. So he teaches that god is artificial and man made. In the orientation he gives this exact statement then deferes back to his "divine science". The whole scientific approach has been twisted by the movement that members do not apply the test aspect to ANY notions of the venus project. The leadership has made it very well known that NO RESEARCH IS BEING CONDUCTED and NO TEST CITY IS BEING BUILT. So where is the scientific method being applied? It is not, it is the common belief of the group that sacred science will prevail. Counterfeit science and backdoor oneness religion.

SACRED ZEITGEIST SCIENCE "Science is Divinity in Action":

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag]

PETER JOSEPH BELIEVES MAN IS GOD (first two minutes)

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1]

The Dispensing of Existence

Are not men presumtuous to appoint themselves the dispensers of human existence? Surely this is a flagrant expression of what the Greeks called hubris, of arrogant man making himself God. Yet one underlying assumption makes this arrogance mandatory: the conviction that there is just one path to true existence, just one valid mode of being, and that all others are perforce invalid and false. Totalists thus feel themselves compelled to destroy all possibilities of false existence as a means of furthering the great plan of true existence to which they are committed. [www.culteducation.com]


The Zeitgeist do believe man is god and they do believe there is just one path to true existence "divine science and technology". Zeitgeist wished to destroy all current modes of false existence to create a great plan of true existence, "the venus project".

And if no peak experience occurs, ideological totalism does even greater violence to the human potential: it evokes destructive emotions, produces intellectual and psychological constrictions, and deprives men of all that is most subtle and imaginative - under the false promise of eliminating those very imperfections and ambivalences which help to define the human condition. This combination of personal closure, self-destructiveness, and hostility toward outsiders leads to the dangerous group excesses so characteristic of ideological totalism in any form. It also mobilizes extremist tendencies in those outsiders under attack, thus creating a vicious circle of totalism.[www.culteducation.com]

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
The goal is for economic and fame for the founders.

The Spokesmen, VTV, sells stuff for financial gain on his site:
[www.printfection.com]

The Spokesmen VTV, seeks financial donations:
[v-radio.org]

The Venus project sells $295 packages
[www.thevenusproject.com]

Fresco sells his book " the best that money cant buy" to members:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thevenusproject.com]

The Zeitgeist Movie sells movies and Tshirts:
[zeitgeistmovie.com]

Zeitgeist opposes all other RBE economy objectives, because it is "dangerous" to donate to anybody else, but the venus project:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Peter Joseph thinks by using his followers to push his film he can get nominated for a academy award (atho they claim it is not a "ego" issue, its simply for "awareness"):
[zeitgeistmovements.files.wordpress.com]

PS, if you need more examples let me know.

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rrmoderator
Prometheuspan:

Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

These criteria are not really evident from your posted comments here.

You have repeatedly failed to connect TZM in any meaningful way with these three criteria.

You have not addressed my points on those criteria.
Somehow I get the sensation maybe you missed that post.

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Prometheuspan
Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

How do you feel this group fits these criteria?

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pan
1. Jaques is venerated and put on a pedastal by PJ and others. Hes not exactly charismatic in the normal sense and thats why it never went very far until PJ who is got involved.
The cult is a cult of personality in three tiers, and this complicates things, but its really very simple. Jaques is like the prophet, the Cult Guru. PJ at one point in time posted
on the forum a link to some foreign countries thanks to the public for paying the TV bill, in which you could put any image into the program, it had nothing to do with Jaques,
But its one of those "Hero worship" kinds of things "this is who we have to thank for " etc etc and then mass dancing and celebration ensues. This is only one example.
Try arguing with them over details, see how often you get "Jaques says" or "PJ says." Its absolutely a cult of personality and a hierarchal system in this way.
PJ does research, comes back and dispenses the core true one way. Cult members are discouraged from doing their own research and anybody who knows anything past the
Bachelors level is bullied into submission or banned. The assorted ways in which they maintain the pack hierarchy are too numerous to count, but absolutely, Jaques and PJ and VTV are the cults leaders, and
they have absolute and dictatorial control over the cult and over what happens with it, on its assorted media, and etc. To the extent as previously stated that VTV has now deleted over a dozen threads from the forum
involving me in order to cover his tracks and the evidence- He can do that- hes allowed to run around with dictatorial powers.

So Jaques is the prophet, PJ is the charismatic Leader, and VTV is the attack dog and Nazi Brownshirt. Together with the secret admins they absolutely create and maintain an absolute dictatorial hierarchy,
and delete any evidence that this is true as it arises.

A. Jaques openly lies about his level of education. He claims to have expertise in multiple fields where he simply has at best half of a bachelors Degree. This is particularly true of social engineering.
If they had any depth knowledge of social engineering, these problems would not exist, they would actually have think tanks instead of a top down dispensational hierarchy.

B. The flow of information and the flow of ideas is all one way. Jaques dispenses the gospel, PJ interprets it, and VTV defends it.

C. Jaques and the cult openly lie about Jaques credentials, even going so far as to have him introduced as "Dr." on live TV.

D. Critical analysis of Jaques ideas is not allowed, and is cause first for multiple ad hom attacks and then banning.

E. Critical anlaysis of PJs Ideas, Same thing.

F. This situation does become complicated because this is a cult of personality in three tiers. Jaques is the top tier, PJ the middle Tier, and VTV the low tier.
Each of these persons has been put in the position by the cult of being afforded the condition that they cannot be questioned, cannot be contradicted, and can not be criticized.
This arrangement strangely mirrors very closely the brain arrangement itself, where Jaques is a reflection of the Mammalian Mind, PJ The frontal lobes and Ego, and VTV operates as the reptile brain.

When PJ talks about symbiosis in his film with high praise, he misses that symbiosis in human relationships is understood to be a hallmark of dysfunctionality. These three individuals form a symbiotic
and patently codependent pseudo family, with Jaques playing the roll of mom, PJ playing the role of dad, and VTV playing the role of the Criminal adolescent whome mom and dad think can do no wrong.

G. PJ and the cult at large absolutely do put Jaques on a pedastal, there are too many examples of this to really go into all of them, but i think the most amusing and clearly evident on is a thread in which
PJ uses the "thank you" announcement designed by a European Television agency to allow people to thank themselves for paying the bill, ... This bit allows anyone to put Jaques face into the main image of the
video, and features elated celebtration and dancing and hero worship of whomever is thus featured. Jaques doesn't live in that country and doesn't pay those bills, so the video has nothing to do with him,
its just exploited by PJ as a way to put Jaques on a pedastal.

I wish I could link you to this, but, you see, eventually as far as i understand it the video was taken down, and the thread was deleted.

H. Jaques make silly and superfluous claims about his own knowledge, That he is a "modern Davinci" and etc. That hes an expert in social engineering, that hes an expert in Architecture. A very large number of
his designs would be rejected in any first year architecture class as being unsupported, not able to bear the load weight, or if they could bear the load weight requiring extremely expensive materials to build.

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pan
2. Everything about the cult is carrot bait and switch. They have tons and tons of great sounding ideas and they are very good at pointing the finger at social and civil ills and painting devils horns
on frankly anything that moves; all governments, all religions, all other social movements, and anybody who questions them. Their form of indoctrination is in many senses very primitive. Members are bullied
into compliance via an ad hominem double standard. VTV and Thunder and others are allowed to openly attack members and intimidate them, lie about them, or use their bully pulpit to talk about them-
even live on air. VTV in particular likes to do this; use his on air bully pulpit to talk smack about people where and when they can't defend themselves. Thunder is prone to actual threats of physical violence.

If you read the materials provided by me you see that VTV engaged me in multiple personal attacks in a transparent attempt to get me to bow down and submit to his authority. He tried to bully me
silent and complacent after i pointed out that he had ad hommed somebody else - 20 or 40 ad homs or so.

Everything about the cult is exorbitantly coercive, and the cults absolutist terms and black and white thinking places them in an absolute and infinite war against pretty much everybody; all religions, all
governments, all corporations. So you if your not with them, your against them, and they will try every coercive and manipulative trick in the book to force you or coerce you into complacency.

A. The cult uses ad hominem double standards and repeated personal attacks to literally bludgeon you into compliance if you show even the slightest degree of confusion or disagreement.

B. The movies use assorted hypnotic methods, including binaural beats, in order to hypnotize people.

C. The cult absolutely renders its struggle in terms of black and white thinking, demonizing the money system and the people attached to it rather than looking at such through the lens of evolutionary process.

D. The cult operates via pack psychology, with a strict inner inner alpha group and then circles of betas which are repeatedly put into their place via assorted forms of psychological manipulation.

E. The Cult In essence uses the same "Alarm bell" tactics as many such cults, raising the alarm, pitting themselves as the hero in an epic battle against evil, and crying out for people to take to the streets in riots,
instructing them and programming members to attack, "take down", "destroy" The money system.

Quote
pan
3. Members are exploited financially, the cult has several front groups for collecting funds and refuses transparency of any kind regarding those groups. Members are exploited on FB even in terms of their name, where they are expected to add the term "Zeitgeist" into their FB name in order to use their name space to advertise for the cult. (in direct contravention to FB rules regarding that persons should use only their legal names there.)
Members are most exploited however for the ego trip, a top down pack hierarchy in which VTV and Thunder demean, insult, and denigrate members at their leisure and are above reproach or criticism for such behaviors.
VTV and Thunder are classic Sociopathic bullies, exploiting their position in the cult in order to feed their ego trips.

The cult criteria you list here are very limited. I have detailed cult criteria which i have gone over, they pretty much fit every single criteria to a T, including VTVS pat vacant monosyllabic denials ("Nope.")

I think that it true that the exploitation going on is very weak as compared to many other cults. I think its fair to say most cults exploit their members quite a bit more. However this does not change the simple fact that cult members
are in fact exploited.


You seem to think that because VTV has an argument that I'm just some troll who got banned and that because I try to present my personal experience as evidence that this all fits together into some sort of puzzle.
I think you are missing some really simple things here. Firstly, I was posting about alpha brainwaves on their forum because I knew before I started that the cult was a cult. I was providing information to them to help
them out of the mess. Without being accusatory, without attacking them, without mentioning the word cult, I was simply providing information about how hypnosis works and why using it to control people is wrong.
So I knew before they banned me that it was a cult. My work there was to help them out of that problem.

I personally take issue with this position. I think its unfair of you to blame the victim, and unfair of you to put stock or value in VTVs ad hominems. I also think its clear that you have not looked at my evidence,
or read the actual interaction between me and VTV.

I am quite capable of competently separating myself from this argument completely. I think the depth of my personal experience is quite valid. I think that the actual circumstances around my banning are an exquisite and perfect
proof that it is a cult because I did not break any rules, because I was attacked repeatedly and ad hommed repeatedly and did not retaliate, I just kept trying to appeal to their humanity and reason, They lied about why they
banned me, and then they attempted to cover up all of the evidence. Now, you can take VTVs side and call this a personal feud, sure, thats a convenient way to invalidate me and my argument. But whether or not I am personally
involved in this does not change anything. Their behavior towards me is a stand alone proof of cult abuse. But I don't need any of that to prove or argue that they are a cult, its just my direct personal experience and journey with them,
and it simplifies things quite a bit to look at it from that point of view.

Other people tend not to have so clear a path. Other people fight back against the ad homs or get sucked into conflict and are then banned after they reciprocate. The absolute clarity of my path and how I was abused by the cult is that
I never ad hommed them even as they were posting 'ET the extra terrestrial" Videos mocking me, and calling me "insane" and "Crazy."

[ni4d-issues.rbefoundation.com]

Read it. I think it makes the point quite well. VTV is betting that you won't, and lying through his teeth betting that you won't.






[www.facebook.com]

[www.facebook.com]

[www.facebook.com]

[www.facebook.com]

[www.facebook.com]

In short and in summary, Via any and all objective evaluation criteria, TVP/TZM is absolutely a cult.

Quote
james kush
Again, Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

Jacque Fresco birthday is a global holiday for Zeitgeist called ZDAY.
[zdayglobal.org]

Interesting. I know Jacque Fresco very well and was not aware of this. And I have yet to hear anyone say this until now and I hold several positions within the organization. I don't think this was done out of any sort of "worship".

Quote
James Kush
They have tshirts,mugs, and other items with the likeness of Jacque Fresco:
[www.printfection.com]

Again, political activist movement. The "Campaign for Liberty" puts Ron Paul on stuff too. He is on those items in particular because of the funny quote from the last Zeitgeist movie.

Quote
James
They have created small idols that represent the likeness of jacque fresco:
[thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Quote
James
That is an artist's project. They are not IDOLS. WOW what a spin lol.

Here is a prime example of the founder of zeitgeist movement Peter Joseph creating a "thought terminating cliche":

Hey Everyone.
Please note that my response actually has nothing to do with the writer in question as he is really an abstraction within a larger context. [We all understand what it means to be a victim of culture and circumstance.] My expression here is contextual to "The Circus" which Sam is "on tour" with. I haven't read his new response nor will I as it is irrelevant here. My overall point is to encourage others to simply recognize this pattern of thought we are seeing grow.

In time, NBC, ABC or the like will be toting this same "cult" rhetoric or something very close to it. So, rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment.

For those who do not know what "The Circus" is, it has to do with blatantly derogatory rhetoric which, rather than addressing a governing principle of a RBE, which TZM and TVP are seeking to create awareness of and institute, it attacks angles which are irrelevant and/or out of context - propping them up as though they mean something - always avoiding the core positions presented by The Movement.

Tell-tale signs of The Circus are labels/contexts like "cult" "conspiracy theorist" "communist" "new world order" "Marxist" "satanist" "theosophist" "anti-freedom" "anti-semetic" "racist" and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.

What you don't hear from The Circus is anything that is specific to the tenets of the work itself. Such as recognition of the problems we consider or the viability of the solutions we offer in a specific way. The Circus will not discuss the Debt Collapse which is not stopping and why. The Circus will not present the gross negligence of having a Market system based on unneeded/yet demanded Cyclical Consumption. The Circus will not consider the impediment of an Infinite Growth Economy and the dangerously wasteful/unsustainable nature of such a practice. The Circus doesn't seem to care that 1% of the world owns 40% of the planet's wealth and that a global Plutocracy is at hand as one child dies every 5 secs of starvation. The Circus will not evaluate the monetary driven psychosocial pressures which generate generation after generation of addiction, mental health issues, violence, familial deprivation and countless other issues.
The Circus doesn't care about Public Health or anything that has to do with social improvement. -Peter Joseph Merola [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break.

Quote
James
Another loaded language phrase includes the classic Zeitgeist, "the movie is not the movement" thought terminating cliche. Basically, the members have been instructed to not consider any arguments about the namesake film of the movement, "Zeitgeist". Here is a member obviously drunk with indoctrination using this cliche in a youtube video:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVKKE8tu8p8]

Sigh...

The reason the "movies are not the movement" is because the first movie has nothing to do with what we are doing now. And in the movies Peter puts some material in the movie that members of the movement do not always agree with. But again, that's not "coercive thought re-form".

Quote
James
How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?

Essentially, coercive persuasion relies largely upon thought reform techniques and may also utilize unreasonable fear to compel people to change. Through such a process many can be changed without their knowledge and/or informed consent. This is done in a rigid way that frequently precludes any meaningful exchange of ideas, is fairly one-sided and seems to have little respect for differences. Margaret Singer clinical psychologist and author of the book "Cults in Our Midst" made distinctions between various types of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform. [www.culteducation.com]

So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement?

Quote
James
The fear tactics Zeitgeist uses is conspiracy. Basically, these people have been convinced that the economic end is near and the goal is to prepare for a violent introduction of a new peaceful unified global order Peter Merola calls "Perfection" and Jacque Fresco calls "Heaven on Earth".

There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse. None of them are cults. And it's not an unreasonable fear. And you are really quoting Peter and Jacque out of context here:

[www.youtube.com]

And more examples of groups that feel we are in a crisis ecologically and economically:

[www.youtube.com]

And as for your accusation that nobody in the Zeitgeist Movement is interested in actually researching things now, several members of the movement are involved with this project that is testing and developing sustainable technologies and giving them away FREE open source.

[openfarmtech.org]

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James
A example of fear tactic based propaganda as presented by Stacy McCain:

[theothermccain.com]

Another article SOLELY concentrated on the first film that was made by Peter Joseph back when he was a music major in college as part of a personal project. I have already debunked the nonsense that the movie could in any reasonable way be linked to Jared Loughner. It takes a bit more then some guy who had not even spoken to him for two years to suggest that. Not to mention Loughner had many youtube videos that were released not long before his shooting that showed views that are very much not in line with our suggested economic model.

Quote
James
What "unreasonable fears" do many cult members have?

These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger. [www.culteducation.com]

Now your repeating yourself. But I will debunk this twice. There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to produce infinitely on a planet that has finite resources. There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable". Secondly, as I already pointed out beliefs in conspiracy theories while individual members may have them they are not required to be involved in this activist movement. Nor is it part of the material. Jacque Fresco openly stated he does not support the first film in my interview with him you can find on my website.

Quote
James
How can cults control information?

Information is controlled in many cults by creating strict rules and/or guidelines regarding such things as books and outside reading, television, movies, radio, music and often even restricting associations with anyone who might express independent ideas, doubts or negative feelings about the group. The group and its leader(s) thus may become much like a filter, supposedly needed to help eliminate the "pollution", "poisons" and negativity of the outside world. [www.culteducation.com]

The Zeitgeist forums for discussion is a heavily filtered and censored forum. People will get immediately banned and IP blocked for raising criticisms considered hostile to the movement ( On Jan 14th 2011 blocked and banned: [forum.culteducation.com]). In some cases, complete threads will be erased, or in the case of the radio program used by zeitgeist, complete radio episodes will be removed. In addition, the common use of "thought terminating cliches" by the zeitgeist movement is the biggest form of information control.

We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here.

Quote
James
Destructive Cult Recruitment

When recruiting members, Zeitgeist does not share its conspiracy aspects and hides its disdain for God and Christianity as a whole. If confronted about the film, the members resort to the thought terminating cliche "THE MOVIES ARE NOT THE MOVEMENT". According to Peter Joseph, the growth of the Zeitgeist Movement is in fact due to the first film, "Zeitgeist". These members who do in fact agree with the conspiratorial and religious beliefs of the founder then use the Venus Project as a tool for recruiting. If you research Zeitgeist "activism" on youtube, you will find them spreading the "positive" outer layers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK3IpvahQqc) while completely avoiding the Zeitgeist Movement inner core beliefs of religion, spirituality, conspiracy, etc.

It is interesting that you basically in a way just proved my point. We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about. The movement is about the Resource Based Economy model. And while there are many atheists and some conspiracy theorists in the movement as I pointed out, neither of these things are required for supporting the resource based economy model. I have friends who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc who still understand that using science to build a more efficient and sustainable world will work. And I know of several people personally within the movement who do not believe in any of the conspiracy theory material. This is again why I see a lot of what is going on here as spin. You are making general statements about the beliefs of some people within this organization. I know of MANY members of "Campaign for Liberty" who are 911 truthers. Is "Campaign for Liberty" a cult? No it's not. And they don't actively promote 911 conspiracy theories. But individual members can hold whatever beliefs they want. Ironically this is actually proof that there is no coercive thought control. Nobody gets "in trouble" in the movement for not being a conspiracy theorist. Or an atheist.

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James
ZEITGEIST MEMBER ENGAGED IN DECEPTIVE RECRUITING:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGHYW-aErM&feature=player_embedded]

From the description of the person's own video:

"This is my 2nd Venus Project promotional video. I tried to make it look like one of those cheesy lawyer commercials.
Enjoy"

In other words, he was being humorous. Not deceptive. (Humor I might add, is listed as something that is lost in "cults".)

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James
The fundamental premise behind Peters Joseph motives is the "perfect" society and Jacque Frescos includes "heaven on earth".

Two things:

1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")

2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.

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James
Typically, when confronted with the word "Utopia" however, Zeitgeist members tend to resort to the thought terminating cliche "not a utopia, just something better than we have now". An example of zeitgeist dividing the absolute good from the absolute evil includes a segment (audio was made exclusive only to members that downloaded the program from the official site; once the segment was exposed, the complete radio broadcast was removed) where Douglas Mallette represents "pure evil" as any organization that would target a food producing "facility", these people "need to die". This scenario was in anticipation of what Douglass Mallette thought was going to be a chance for the Venus project to create a test city in Africa with United nations funding in which Dougas Mallette would be in charge of said facility. Douglas Mallette went as far as speaking directly to the United Nations as a representative of the Venus Project.

1. Douglass Mallette is just an individual supporter. He cannot "speak for the Venus Project". But he is a supporter of it.

2. The quote your talking about was never on the Zeitgeist Movement's website, or the Venus Project's website. It was on my website, as it took place on my radio show. I would note to the readers that this again is deceptive on his part, as he tried to claim this is a view held by the entire movement.
His statement that it was on the "official site" is a blatant lie. And it was not made "only available to members" it was on my radio show which plenty of people who are not members listen to.

3. Your information about the UN is inaccurate. Douglass wants to develop an automated hydroponic faming system. The UN offers funding for such things. He was never asking for money for a test city for the Venus Project. This is blatantly false. And further proves a lack of credibility.

4. Douglass has since apologized for his wording. But it was a comment made in conversation and the scenario that was actually painted was that in a possible future where we, a peaceful group trying to help people in the world build a food production facility and some nefarious group destroyed that facility likely killing hundreds of people in the process and leaving hundreds of thousands of others without food that action would have to be taken against them. I have seen this spun as "he thinks people should be killed for attacking a building" while very deceptively leaving all of the information about why that building would be attacked, and who could be hurt in the process out of the description. This is a classic example of someone public making a strong statement and then getting sound bited and taken out of context.

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James
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").

Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.

ZEITGEIST "PERFECTION"-Peter Joseph:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFL7dz2iKyw&feature=channel_video_title]

And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.

ZEITGEIST "Heaven on Earth"-Jacque Fresco:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o]

And in this video, the trolls who made it (The anon youtube accounts are all owned by people who are angry about having been banned from the website pretending to be part of the "Anonymous" internet activist group. They were hoping they could get that group to attack us in the same way they do actual cults like scientology. Just as they are hoping experts here will label us a cult now.) Suggesting that Jacque Fresco is a liar because he said it would take 10 years to change the surface of the earth. They are saying this is a false prediction, but what Jacque is saying is that if we started to implement the designs for a resource based economy it would take 10 years to change the earth to the system he proposes. This again is a very deceptive attempt. We have never tried to implement the Resource Based Economy in the first place, so obviously saying that Jacque Fresco said it back in the seventies as some sort of proof that he is lying about it is silly. It takes a few years to build an aircraft carrier. But the clock doesn't start until someone actually starts the building. This is so silly.

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James
ZEITGEIST "EVIL AND BAD PEOPLE who attack Venus project, Need to Die" (note, the video was not taken out of context, in fact, the whole audio was removed from the venus project spokesman's VTV's radio program list once i exposed this hidden section of a radio program.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Y9KO-l-T0]

Well how interesting. First we have more repetition. Then we have you going from saying it was on the official TZM site to now pointing out it was on my radio program. What an interesting contradiction.

ZEITGEIST PREPARE FOR VIOLENCE:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI2o0L8Z4xc]

I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.

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James
Sacred Science is a fundament aspect to the Zeitgeist Movement. Altho when confronted with this information, members will usually say the material is "metaphorical", "conceptual", or "poetic" and not meant to be taken literal in context. First, in the zeitgeist orientation guide, the final chapter called "Functional Spirituality" teaches members "science and technology is divinity in action". Merola teaches people that "science is the tool for functional spirituality". The ultimate moral vision an ultimate science, science running the world and all of humanity thru a unified cybernated computer system and cities built by robots where people will no longer do manuel labor or any other form of job. The founder of the "movement" Peter Joseph himself believes man is god and mans ideas can be godly. In addendum he describes mans divine potential when the create the nuclear bomb. This movement does go so far in overt statement. The idea is that the human "oneness" spiritual beliefs of zeitgeist will eventually lead to this perfect scientific society. Zeitgeist lays the foundation for sacred science in the movie most members like people to watch, but not associate with the movement, the first film.

You are making a huge stretch here. First of all, Jacque Fresco points out that his own designs may not work. And they are just what he proposes at this time. That is the reason a "test city" is suggested if this concept were ever implemented. So there is nothing "sacred" about it. If through the scientific method we find that different concepts we are considering don't work, then those concepts are tossed out. It's really that simple. And it doesn't make us a cult to suggest that people use rational critical and analytical thinking to try and solve mankind's problems rather then superstition or politics which are both proving to be failures. Your context on Peter Joseph believing that "man is god" is an atheist metaphor. Nothing more. Are all atheists cultists?

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James
In it, the founder of the movement Peter Joseph teaches that all religions are man made and that the biggest fraud is christianity, namely Jesus Christ. Merola teaches these same principles in radio interviews. So he teaches that god is artificial and man made.

Again. Because he is an atheist.

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James
In the orientation he gives this exact statement then deferes back to his "divine science".

Please show me a quote where HE says "divine science"? I suspect spin here.

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James
The whole scientific approach has been twisted by the movement that members do not apply the test aspect to ANY notions of the venus project. The leadership has made it very well known that NO RESEARCH IS BEING CONDUCTED and NO TEST CITY IS BEING BUILT. So where is the scientific method being applied? It is not, it is the common belief of the group that sacred science will prevail. Counterfeit science and backdoor oneness religion.

Again, we move into absolute falsehood. It is well known that the first step of implementing such a system is a test city. It is not what we are working on right now. Right now we are emphasizing helping people understand the concept, make people aware of the dangers of infinite production/pollution on a finite planet, and suggesting the solutions we have.

SACRED ZEITGEIST SCIENCE "Science is Divinity in Action":

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag]

The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch.

PETER JOSEPH BELIEVES MAN IS GOD (first two minutes)

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1]

Again, because he is an atheist.

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James
The Zeitgeist do believe man is god and they do believe there is just one path to true existence "divine science and technology". Zeitgeist wished to destroy all current modes of false existence to create a great plan of true existence, "the venus project".

Again, this is a silly bit of spin here. I would also point out that it is made very clear that people can believe whatever they want in an RBE society. We don't advocate force or coercion for any type of social change. I notice you keep leaving that part out. There are millions of atheists who are not members of any cult. And it seems to me like your trying to make the two words synonymous.

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James
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
The goal is for economic and fame for the founders.

The Spokesmen, VTV, sells stuff for financial gain on his site:
[www.printfection.com]

The Spokesmen VTV, seeks financial donations:
[v-radio.org]

The Venus project sells $295 packages
[www.thevenusproject.com]

Fresco sells his book " the best that money cant buy" to members:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thevenusproject.com]

The Zeitgeist Movie sells movies and Tshirts:
[zeitgeistmovie.com]

Rick Ross sells DVDs, books, etc. Along with many other people all over the world. I take donations and do sell some items but that's not "abuse" and people listen to my radio program free of charge regardless of donations. People are free to give, or not to give. This is not "abuse". There is no membership dues for the Zeitgeist Movement. Peter gives all of his movies away for free on the internet and only sells DVD for a fraction of what they are worth. I can tell you that Jacque and Roxanne have refused certain fundraising ideas because they did not feel it would be right for them to ask for money beyond what they already do. There is nothing wrong with an author charging for his book. Or a filmmaker charging for videos he has made. There is no coercive element. Nobody is excluded for any lack of financial contribution. You are again twisting the concept of cult abuse here. Financial abuse in a cult context is like organizations who demand you give them all your money when you join. Simply asking for donations does not make an organization a cult, or every single church, charity, etc. on this planet would be a cult. It is not abuse unless it is coercive.

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James
Zeitgeist opposes all other RBE economy objectives, because it is "dangerous" to donate to anybody else, but the venus project:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Again, your deceptively twisting words. Independent projects (like my radio program for example) can get permission to ask for donations for given projects. What we don't want is to see people setting up scams that claim to be collecting money for the Venus Project or the Zeitgeist Movement that are not doing so. This is not uncommon in political activist situations sadly. It happened to Ron Paul several times.

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James
Peter Joseph thinks by using his followers to push his film he can get nominated for a academy award (atho they claim it is not a "ego" issue, its simply for "awareness"):
[zeitgeistmovements.files.wordpress.com]

It's interesting that you link your own blog as proof of your spin claim here.

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James
PS, if you need more examples let me know.

So, to wrap this up.

I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc. The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context, and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument. This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him. It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.

We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement. And is hoping that you will label us a cult.