Re: "Warning signs"
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 04, 2011 12:58PM
Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
How do you feel this group fits these criteria?[/quote]
1. Jaques is venerated and put on a pedastal by PJ and others. Hes not exactly charismatic in the normal sense and thats why it never went very far until PJ who is got involved.
The cult is a cult of personality in three tiers, and this complicates things, but its really very simple. Jaques is like the prophet, the Cult Guru. PJ at one point in time posted
on the forum a link to some foreign countries thanks to the public for paying the TV bill, in which you could put any image into the program, it had nothing to do with Jaques,
But its one of those "Hero worship" kinds of things "this is who we have to thank for " etc etc and then mass dancing and celebration ensues. This is only one example.
Try arguing with them over details, see how often you get "Jaques says" or "PJ says." Its absolutely a cult of personality and a hierarchal system in this way.
PJ does research, comes back and dispenses the core true one way. Cult members are discouraged from doing their own research and anybody who knows anything past the
Bachelors level is bullied into submission or banned. The assorted ways in which they maintain the pack hierarchy are too numerous to count, but absolutely, Jaques and PJ and VTV are the cults leaders, and
they have absolute and dictatorial control over the cult and over what happens with it, on its assorted media, and etc. To the extent as previously stated that VTV has now deleted over a dozen threads from the forum
involving me in order to cover his tracks and the evidence- He can do that- hes allowed to run around with dictatorial powers.
So Jaques is the prophet, PJ is the charismatic Leader, and VTV is the attack dog and Nazi Brownshirt. Together with the secret admins they absolutely create and maintain an absolute dictatorial hierarchy,
and delete any evidence that this is true as it arises.
2. Everything about the cult is carrot bait and switch. They have tons and tons of great sounding ideas and they are very good at pointing the finger at social and civil ills and painting devils horns
on frankly anything that moves; all governments, all religions, all other social movements, and anybody who questions them. Their form of indoctrination is in many senses very primitive. Members are bullied
into compliance via an ad hominem double standard. VTV and Thunder and others are allowed to openly attack members and intimidate them, lie about them, or use their bully pulpit to talk about them-
even live on air. VTV in particular likes to do this; use his on air bully pulpit to talk smack about people where and when they can't defend themselves. Thunder is prone to actual threats of physical violence.
If you read the materials provided by me you see that VTV engaged me in multiple personal attacks in a transparent attempt to get me to bow down and submit to his authority. He tried to bully me
silent and complacent after i pointed out that he had ad hommed somebody else - 20 or 40 ad homs or so.
Everything about the cult is exorbitantly coercive, and the cults absolutist terms and black and white thinking places them in an absolute and infinite war against pretty much everybody; all religions, all
governments, all corporations. So you if your not with them, your against them, and they will try every coercive and manipulative trick in the book to force you or coerce you into complacency.
3. Members are exploited financially, the cult has several front groups for collecting funds and refuses transparency of any kind regarding those groups. Members are exploited on FB even in terms of their name, where they are expected to add the term "Zeitgeist" into their FB name in order to use their name space to advertise for the cult. (in direct contravention to FB rules regarding that persons should use only their legal names there.)
Members are most exploited however for the ego trip, a top down pack hierarchy in which VTV and Thunder demean, insult, and denigrate members at their leisure and are above reproach or criticism for such behaviors.
VTV and Thunder are classic Sociopathic bullies, exploiting their position in the cult in order to feed their ego trips.
The cult criteria you list here are very limited. I have detailed cult criteria which i have gone over, they pretty much fit every single criteria to a T, including VTVS pat vacant monosyllabic denials ("Nope.")
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
In short and in summary, Via any and all objective evaluation criteria, TVP/TZM is absolutely a cult.
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
How do you feel this group fits these criteria?[/quote]
1. Jaques is venerated and put on a pedastal by PJ and others. Hes not exactly charismatic in the normal sense and thats why it never went very far until PJ who is got involved.
The cult is a cult of personality in three tiers, and this complicates things, but its really very simple. Jaques is like the prophet, the Cult Guru. PJ at one point in time posted
on the forum a link to some foreign countries thanks to the public for paying the TV bill, in which you could put any image into the program, it had nothing to do with Jaques,
But its one of those "Hero worship" kinds of things "this is who we have to thank for " etc etc and then mass dancing and celebration ensues. This is only one example.
Try arguing with them over details, see how often you get "Jaques says" or "PJ says." Its absolutely a cult of personality and a hierarchal system in this way.
PJ does research, comes back and dispenses the core true one way. Cult members are discouraged from doing their own research and anybody who knows anything past the
Bachelors level is bullied into submission or banned. The assorted ways in which they maintain the pack hierarchy are too numerous to count, but absolutely, Jaques and PJ and VTV are the cults leaders, and
they have absolute and dictatorial control over the cult and over what happens with it, on its assorted media, and etc. To the extent as previously stated that VTV has now deleted over a dozen threads from the forum
involving me in order to cover his tracks and the evidence- He can do that- hes allowed to run around with dictatorial powers.
So Jaques is the prophet, PJ is the charismatic Leader, and VTV is the attack dog and Nazi Brownshirt. Together with the secret admins they absolutely create and maintain an absolute dictatorial hierarchy,
and delete any evidence that this is true as it arises.
2. Everything about the cult is carrot bait and switch. They have tons and tons of great sounding ideas and they are very good at pointing the finger at social and civil ills and painting devils horns
on frankly anything that moves; all governments, all religions, all other social movements, and anybody who questions them. Their form of indoctrination is in many senses very primitive. Members are bullied
into compliance via an ad hominem double standard. VTV and Thunder and others are allowed to openly attack members and intimidate them, lie about them, or use their bully pulpit to talk about them-
even live on air. VTV in particular likes to do this; use his on air bully pulpit to talk smack about people where and when they can't defend themselves. Thunder is prone to actual threats of physical violence.
If you read the materials provided by me you see that VTV engaged me in multiple personal attacks in a transparent attempt to get me to bow down and submit to his authority. He tried to bully me
silent and complacent after i pointed out that he had ad hommed somebody else - 20 or 40 ad homs or so.
Everything about the cult is exorbitantly coercive, and the cults absolutist terms and black and white thinking places them in an absolute and infinite war against pretty much everybody; all religions, all
governments, all corporations. So you if your not with them, your against them, and they will try every coercive and manipulative trick in the book to force you or coerce you into complacency.
3. Members are exploited financially, the cult has several front groups for collecting funds and refuses transparency of any kind regarding those groups. Members are exploited on FB even in terms of their name, where they are expected to add the term "Zeitgeist" into their FB name in order to use their name space to advertise for the cult. (in direct contravention to FB rules regarding that persons should use only their legal names there.)
Members are most exploited however for the ego trip, a top down pack hierarchy in which VTV and Thunder demean, insult, and denigrate members at their leisure and are above reproach or criticism for such behaviors.
VTV and Thunder are classic Sociopathic bullies, exploiting their position in the cult in order to feed their ego trips.
The cult criteria you list here are very limited. I have detailed cult criteria which i have gone over, they pretty much fit every single criteria to a T, including VTVS pat vacant monosyllabic denials ("Nope.")
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
In short and in summary, Via any and all objective evaluation criteria, TVP/TZM is absolutely a cult.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 04, 2011 01:46PM
Quote
vtv
This is one of the reasons I find the cult distinction to be problematic. By this guilt by association logic your using here people could of said that Martin Luther King or Ghandi were cult leaders. Where is the distinction drawn between an activist leader and a cult leader? As I pointed out in my own article about cults the definition alone can be stretched to apply to anything if you are not careful. Jacque Fresco does have admirers but that does not automatically make him a cult leader.
What makes him a cult leader is frankly the fact that its all lies. And let me tell you what a bunch of fibs get told. Jaques claims to be a "modern davinci" He claims to have multiple degrees which he does not have, and then when caught doing that he claims he did private research, and its transparently obvious this is not so. Between all three of the cult leaders they have maybe 5 total virtual (autodidactic) bachelors degrees. Not a batch of Doctorates as they
pretend. This is particularly ludicrous from my pov as I am an Autodidactic aspie polymath, the genuine article. I also sing in 4 octaves, have perfect pitch, play the clarinet expertly... I could brag on and on but i will spare the forum
the details. The point is that he is venerated above his true and real achievements, hes put on a pedastal, they lie about his credentials, they have people on live TV introduce him as "Dr", the list goes on and on. What makes it
absolutely a cult guru situation is its all based on lies. Jaques designs buildings which prove hes never studied enough structural engineering, And passes judgment on social and civil systems beyond his comprehension.
The cult props him up, lies about what hes actually got to offer, and makes him out to be some kind of super genius. Hes actually a really neat fellow but frankly quite a bit more average than all the pomp and noise.
Quote
vtv
It is possible that individuals may take their admiration of him too far but that is true of public figures all over the world. And it is not the fault of a person who did not solicit that level of devotion.
This is just plain flat out lying. The cult does everything in its power to prop him up, and he does everything in his power to prop himself up onto a prophetesque pedestal. Jaques himself is the one who asked to be introduced on TV
as "Dr." and jaques himself is the one who claims to be a "modern day Davinci." VTV assumes that we don't know or won't catch him at this. Hes a chronic habitual liar; he has to be; its a full time position,.
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vtv
The Virginia Tech shooter listed a Megatdeth song as one of his inspirations, this did not make Dave Mustaine a cult leader, or in any way liable for his behavior. You might say that he doesn't have a movement, but Megadeth does have a fan club. So that could also be construed as his "movement". This is what I feel is being done here. Cults are dangerous but misusing the term is equally dangerous.
Whats dangerous is failing to know that tzm/ tvp is in fact a cult. Whats dangerous is not going to look at my links to see that in fact, VTV is a patently evil person, a bully, and ad hominem junkie, and uses ad hominem double standard
in order to run a pack psychology intimidation headgame on the forums and on his radio show.
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David
Throughout their movie, Moving Forward, they state that transparency is important. They also state they believe in, the scientific method, a resource base economy, and that all people are entitled to the fruits of the earth or some inherent right of birth. I forget exactly what they call it. They also say they believe those that lack morals and ethics are brain damaged.
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vtv
Transparency is important. But that does not have to include the moderators on the forum. As demonstrated by the fact that this forum itself has anonymous moderators.
In this case it is simply true that having secret moderators on the TZM forum is simply the last detail which added to everything else makes the whole scene an internet mirror of Hitler. Secret Police kicking in your doors, banning your
account, deleting the evidence that VTV and Thunder constantly generate of being ad hom junkies, and etc. The entire point of this is that there is then no accountability, no transparency, and no way to confront your accusers.
I will again repeat what vtv now has tried to spam me dozens of times on FB over; The simple fact is that the way in which they have the secret moderators, the work that they do, the way in which they operate, is itself one absolute
proof that its a cult, stand alone, by itself. Its not just that they are secret. Its that they are unhinged from culpability, and they rule without a meaningful rule set and do whatever suits their whims. They enforce a pack psychology intimidation and bully strategy of coercion.
For pointing this out, vtv has spammed his own facebook group now dozens of times with what he thinks is a very clever debunking. Its not. Its just his spam, and distortions of my words taken out of context and removed from depth.
Quote
vtv
As for the discussion about the resources of the earth being a birthright, it is not unusual for systems of economics or government to make distinctions about that. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal" is a statement along that line. It doesn't make the people of the United States a cult. Different economic systems have different views on this topic. And yes, we like many behavioral scientists
Any claim they have to be any kind of scientist or even to use the scientific method is completely superfluous.
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vtv
(like the ones at the begining of Z3) do feel that violent behavior is a result of environmental conditioning to the brain. This is not a metaphysical or religious belief. It is based in science. You may not agree with it. But that does not make us a cult.
Thatsa true and fine point, but it doesn't change the fact that they are incredibly verbally violent even to each other, they didn't escape this, they just use it as a neat factoid to make other people wrong while they themselves run around insulting and denigrating and ad homming people at their leisure.
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David
The general principals have lost power in the actual movement.
Transparency, which they say would have stopped certain bad economic issues from occurring, is not present when they themselves are questioned. In fact, it is difficult to have any sort of conversation within the group to peruse transparency. They privately control the only reasonable medium to effectively to speak to the entire group at the same time. If they make a mistake, they have been known to delete and hide the offending material pointing to their lack of transparency.
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vtv
The reason the forums have rules is because we have found that people with their own agendas can and will waste enormous amounts of our time derailing topics.
Whats actually true is that they can't handle any kind of real criticism, and the forum "rules" are applied unidirectionally towards new people, not long standing cult members who are free to attack people any time.
The rules they have are patently dysfunctional, they have no valid metaprocess. You can call them rules if you wish but I think its a lot more accurate to call it stacking the deck or shall we say the game of the casino.
The house always wins and the visitors always lose.
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vtv
I again use the analogy of someone holding a civil rights meeting, and a racist arrives and starts de-railing the meeting and making it unproductive. If the person owns the building the meeting is taking place in he has every right to ask people to leave.
This is true and more than fair, but its hardly what happened with the majority of people vtv has blacklisted and named as trolls, who asked legit questions, were verbally attacked and intimidated to try to make them submit, and who then reasonably defended themselves.
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vtv
Your statements accusing us of being a cult were refuted more then once.
No, You think so or claim so, but in fact you'd have to have some cogency in the argument to refute anything, and this you have failed and will always fail to do because it is in fact a cult.
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vtv
You based them entirely on the idea that we had anonymous moderators and were not plastering our personal and financial information everywhere.
listen to him spin. No, David took a good long look at many different details, it was quite a bit more complicated than that.
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vtv
You suggested that we were abusive solely for the way we operate our forums.
You are abusive, if only solely for the way you operate your forums.
Hes right. Anybody trying to make a positive change or difference in the world has their energy derailed by the cult and this will over the longrun cause millions of people to die becauseQuote
vtv
And then you went on with appeal to fear fallacies suggesting people could be hurt, or killed based on the way we use our forums.
others were preoccupied with the cult instead of doing something genuine and positive for others.
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vtv
It was utterly preposterous.
whats utterly preposterous is any claim that it isn't a cult, or any claim that you are not abusive.
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vtv
And when it was clear you were not going to do anything but spam already refuted points, you were banned. Not because we are some super secret cabal. But because conversing you was clearly becoming a waste of time. I would point out that membership on the forum is NOT required to read it. So again, transparency.
transparency does not include deleting that entire thread to cover the tracks of it.
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vtv
I also gave our very solid reasoning for anonymous moderators. And that is that internet trolls can and will engage in harassment campaigns for their own amusement. They are not doing this out of any concern for anyone. They do it for their own fun. And so we protect ourselves from that just as people on MANY forums with anonymous moderators including this one do.
The thing is its an energy cycle of violence. The forum and in particular VTV and Thunder pick the fights, and then the way they mod the forum turns people into hard core anti TZMers very quickly.
Its an utterly dysfunctional way to run a forum, and nothing vtv can say can excuse it.
Quote
vtv
Also, the forums are not even a way to address the whole membership as not even a fraction of the over all membership even use the forum. This is another reason why I feel your fixation on the behavior of the forums being the sole proof that we are somehow abusing people in the organization is silly. Participation on the forums is completely voluntary.
Again, you being abusive to volunteers who come for one thing and end up at the end of your ego trip is not justified just because they are volunteers.
Quote
David
They state that the scientific method, something not of opinion, is to be used to direct their goals. I have found that they have little expertise in the scientific method and that it is not deployed to solve internal situations within TVP/TZM. Given the amount of name calling and fighting between members, no one had deployed or requested the help of those in science known to have an education in social sciences. As a result, the claim of the scientific method has become something that is a lost principal.
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vtv
I also feel this statement is entirely false. If there was some super scientific method to prevent trolling that would be different. There isn't.
There most certainly is and I will be happy to present that method to this forum.
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vtv
We do set up rules and ask people to follow them. Your claims of rampant name calling and all that are also completely untrue.
Now hes just transparently lying again. Hes gone all out to delete all the evidence, but i still have my long batch of ad homs he tossed at me on record.
Quote
vtv
We have rules against it and we have been asking people to understand why such behavior is wrong. The culture of the forums themselves is actually rather peaceful most of the time.
again, hes just plain lying. It is standard practice for them to bully and intimidate and insult people, pretty much not a day goes by that they don't do it one place or another.
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vtv
We go for months without banning anyone.
If you check they make a nice little list of people that they ban and the time at which they were banned.Unless he deletes it or changes it, I think you will find that maybe they manage a few weeks at best.
Quote
David
The idea of a resource base economy sounds great up front. Yet, when people try to find a way to get there, it is your resources that are being requested and they give nothing back, but unanswered questions of how to actually accomplish it.
Quote
vtv
This again, is not true at all. There are no membership dues in the Zeitgeist movement. There is no charge for participating or using any of our mediums. Any donations are given freely and with no obligation. And what they are used for is obvious. Nobody is ever coerced or manipulated into donating. And in fact Peter really avoids asking for money at all. If people wish to buy his DVD's he offers them at 5 bucks when he could easily charge far more then that. And gives away all of the content on the DVD's ABSOLUTELY FREE including the ISO burn file to just make them yourself. Peter has spent far more money on this then he will ever make back from it.
David is spot on. Hes absolutely right. They have no real solutions and no real answers, just a lot of amped up panic attacks over the evil evil money system and evil evil religions and evil evil governments and evil evil corporations. The best solution they have provided is that PJ shows in his latest film essentially anti money riots. that and designing arcologies which they have no pragmatic transition plan to have the resources to ever build. (aside from begging at the foot of the united nations, oh, nevermind that they already denounced the government as evil and then they wonder why they can't get a grant.)
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David
They do not allow equal voice in discussion and thus, prove themselves hypocritical in the equality of us all.
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vtv
Again, completely untrue. There are rules on the forum just as there are rules on this one. Anyone can join the Teamspeak server and talk to us though again if your going to spend your whole time derailing our conversations eventually you will be asked to leave. This is only reasonable. And is true everywhere that I have ever seen. If someone has a forum for a specific purpose then it is clear that derailing conversations about that purpose is going to be a problem. See again the analogy of the meeting I suggested above.
Again, completely true, David is spot on and dead right. Any attempt to confront the leaders earns a person the same kind of vicious bullying which both Dave and I and many other have now experienced.
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David
Their choices to ban people from their forums when they themselves are in the wrong is ethically and morally wrong. So all the talk they make about us being the result of our environment is not practiced with any positive result on their own turf, in many instances.
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vtv
Hogwash. It's his forum. Just like this is Mr. Ross's forum. He has every right to set rules for it's use just as you have every right not to use it. It would actually be immoral of you to insist that he allow you to use his forum any way you wish. And that is basically the attitude I am seeing here. "You better let me talk on your forum any way I want to, or I will just run around the internet calling you a cult." Which is the ultimatum you offered here.
again, david is absolutely right. What tzm practices is not self defense from trolls, but active coercive intimidation and bully tactics. They ban people after abusing them.
Quote
David
2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
Many of those that have asked hard questions and disagree are told that they do not understand the movement. They are told they must read and watch more. Their legitimate issues and questions are not addressed, but instead, told they are confused. If they object, they risk being kicked out.
Quote
vtv
The reason for the test is that we found ourselves wasting huge amounts of time answering the same questions over and over again that people could of easily got the answers for by reading the FAQ.
And see how they feel about it? Its not alearning moment- they resent people asking questions, they don't take the opportunity to walk them through it or talk or be real with people. Back to how to run a forum and not have
trolls. Treat each person with respect and bother to answer the annoying question you have heard 10 times today. Because thats how its done if you have integrity or sense or the first clue about human psychology. Listen to him.
Hes actually HATEFUL towards people who didn't read the FAQ.
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vtv
It is not unreasonable to set a standard for people doing research before they come to our forums starting threads in all capital letters talking about how our ideas are flawed when they don't even understand them.
the claim that people don't understand is again a superflous argument. Most people understand just fine, and the holes they are poking in the logic are completely real. The test is to ensure homogeny, agreement, and
compliance, not to ensure education level.
Quote
vtv
I also feel your claims that the issues are "legit" requires more burden of proof. These situations are looked at on a case by case basis. We had a guy on our TS3 server for about seven hours talking to him about his concerns. If we were the evil regime your talking about we would of banned him right away. It did eventually become clear he was just repeating himself in a filibuster, and then started insulting people so we banned him. I don't apologize for that. And it was not abuse to him to remove him.
Since i don't know any particulars i can't speak to that other than to say i watched vtv attack person after person in my stay at the forums, i made 700 posts there over a period of 3 months. I never once saw them truly take their time to be present with anyone, and as a side note i don't believe that vtv has the psychological ability to truly be present with other people.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 04, 2011 02:02PM
[/quote]Quote
David
I look forward to reading Prometheuspan's reply.
Thank you.
vtv thinks that we are the same person, becausehe can't imagine that people who make sense sound similar from the sense they make.Quote
vtv
I still find it dubious that your fixations are almost identical to his. I would be interested to know if your IP address and "his" are the same. But that aside, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and stick to refuting your points. Which I just did.
Quote
vtv
Again, our organization is an activist organization. In the same thread as groups like Green Peace. We do not hold any religious doctrine. There is no abuse taking place.
They are atheistic trolls, who delight in "debunking" religions, to see how this starts one need only look at PJs second film. They are absolutely abusive, in multiple ways.
They are absolutely religious, they are anti religious, they have a dogmatic system which shares core axioms with satanism, fascism, totalitarianism, and armageddon theology.
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vtv
And the more I debate your points the more I get the feeling that this is someone who has the same agenda as some of the people we have banned ironically for being abusive to us. They are certainly monitoring and bragging about what is taking place here:
This is the cyber-stalking/harassment/bullying that has resulted just because of these conversations alone. And proof that there are people with an interest in doing just this:
[thezeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
[thezeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
Gee, and what did the cult do to mario to make him so mad?
Quote
vtv
I also have screenshots of Prometheus Pan who is now participating on this forum pointing out that his entire reason for calling us a cult was to get revenge on me for banning him from the website.
this is a patent lie, My reason for confronting the cult is that it is evil and dangerous. The fact that i was banned is only simply my path and proof of them being abusive and i was uber careful in that interaction not
to do anything they could ever claim was just cause for banning.
I'm fascinated to see his screen shots, but the reason I am calling out he cult is because its evil and dangerous and because I'm the genuine article workign these high order problems; which makes them nothing more than
another obstacle in my way.
Quote
vtv
And he made it clear he was going to come here and that my only way of stopping him was to get on my knees and beg forgiveness.
That i did say, but not about here. It is my express intention to report him and his cult to every single cult watch group until the cult is laughed out of existence.
I have given vtv multiple chances to de-escalate and that was merely one of them. And yes, he ought to get on his knees and apologize to me and many other people, and fix the problems so that they
can get on with their mission and quit being a cult. I can help them to fix such problems, and thats what i tried to do before being banned.
Quote
vtv
If you want an idea as to what sort of person he is ask him how many textbooks he has read, what his IQ is, and about his experiences with astral projection.
I have read 3000 textbooks. I am an aspie. I have a 180 IQ. Is there a problem?
I studied shamanism and world religions and I finally made it work. Is there a problem?
VTV is here only proving my point. Hes an ad hom junkie.
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vtv
You can see some of his harassment here: [www.facebook.com]
If you go look before he erases it, you can even watch him trolling his own group and using ad hom and bully and troll strategies there, including spam.
Quote
vtv
There is an effort right now to try and hijack this forum to be used as a tool to defame The Zeitgeist Movement by a small group of people who are angry that their abusive behavior
my abusive behavior? which? when? please explain exactly what i am supposedly guilty of... and remeber- while you tried to delete the evidence, did delete it from yoursite, and had the ni4d wiki taken down by joshua pritkin, i still have my own copies. I did not abuse you or anyone; you abused me, and now there are consequences.
Quote
vtv
was not tolerated and that for that they were removed from an internet forum.
Not long ago they tried to do the same thing by creating fake "Anonymous" accounts on youtube in the hopes that they could turn that group of internet activists against us as well.
I didn't have anything to do with that.
Quote
vtv
Honestly I wish this was more complicated then that. But at the end of the day this is just a petty feud. And I find it disgusting that people are cheapening the very real suffering that some people have felt at the hands of cults all so they can get attention for their displeasure at being banned from an internet forum.
Whats really going on is that you are a patently evil person, here lying through your teeth, in defense of an evil cult which is also patently abusive, mostly due to your influence on it.
Quote
vtv
I have also seen a disturbing tendency in the debate here to just use google and find as many negative articles about TZM as possible in an effort to try and claim it was an "investigation". If you put "TZM is a cult" into google you will find it. If you put "TZM is not a cult" you will find it. The internet is full of useful information but it is also full of noise. And I often see people linking to blogs done by anonymous people on the internet as "proof". I could go write on my blog right now that this forum was a tool for an abusive evil cult. That alone would not make it true. Are you seeing any articles about how we are actually abusing anyone? No. Your not. There are people calling it "abusive" but they are saying that banning people from a forum is abusive, and that is absurd.
banning people from a forum in order to silence them when they haven't done anything wrong is abusive, and thats what you did to me and easily half the people you have slandered and black listed as "trolls."
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 04, 2011 11:08PM
Quote
I said:
"And he made it clear he was going to come here and that my only way of stopping him was to get on my knees and beg forgiveness."
Quote
Prometheus said:
"That i did say, but not about here. It is my express intention to report him and his cult to every single cult watch group until the cult is laughed out of existence."
This is clear evidence that this is a personal vendetta, and little more. I don't hear people concerned about cults saying the only way they will not report them is if they get on their knees and beg them for forgiveness. The ATF did not show up at the Branch Davidian compound and ask him to beg for forgiveness.
Quote
I said:
If you want an idea as to what sort of person he is ask him how many textbooks he has read, what his IQ is, and about his experiences with astral projection.
Quote
He said:
I have read 3000 textbooks. I am an aspie. I have a 180 IQ. Is there a problem?
I studied shamanism and world religions and I finally made it work. Is there a problem?
And earlier he said:
Quote
This is particularly ludicrous from my pov as I am an Autodidactic aspie polymath, the genuine article. I also sing in 4 octaves, have perfect pitch, play the clarinet expertly... I could brag on and on but i will spare the forum
the details.
I want to stress this as it is important to me to follow the rules and avoid personal attack, but I am going to sum up what his own words here claim. But lets take one more quote from him:
Quote
Prometheus
The cult props him up, lies about what hes actually got to offer, and makes him out to be some kind of super genius. Hes actually a really neat fellow but frankly quite a bit more average than all the pomp and noise.
Now I would ask anyone reading this to assess everything above. He has in this thread claimed to be able to astrally project. That he has an IQ of 180, that he has read over 3,000 textbooks, and in the past that his credentials due to this include no less then 30 academic degrees. He claims to sing in 4 octaves, has perfect pitch, etc.
In reference to his accusations about Jacque Fresco Is it possible that there is some "psychological projection" going on here?
I would also point out that there is now plenty of proof that there is a personal vendetta being pursued here. He repeats that being banned from the forums in his view "unjustly" is cult abuse. Both he and Mr. Wish have repeated this accusation over and over again. They have ignored the very structured arguments I have offered that prove this is simply wrong. And then they play the "he is a habitual liar" card any time I give a point of data that they cannot obviously refute. I asked them to prove abuse and they have failed to do so again and again and continue to repeat the notion that the treatment they received is evidence of cult abuse. When I asked Prometheus above to provide evidence of real abuse, including sexual abuse, molestation, physical intimidation etc he again offered a link to his wiki that allegedly has links I deleted from the forums. In other words, no sexual abuse, molestation, physical intimidation, etc.
Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to you again that this sort of behavior is why these people were banned from our forums. Not because we are some sort of evil cult. But because it would be unreasonable to put up with this sort of thing for long periods of time.
As they have failed to even attempt to provide proof of any of their allegations, the most that could even be POSSIBLE here is that I am a bad moderator. And that does not make TZM a cult.
We have two people here with a clear vendetta.
David has demanded that the only way we can stop being a cult is if I apologize to him, if we re-instate him on our forums, and if all of our anonymous moderators reveal themselves. I have already demonstrated why the moderators do not do this.
Prometheus has spammed the same "he is an ad hominem junkie" stuff over and over again and threatened to come here to tell you all that TZM is a cult unless I got on my knees and "begged forgiveness".
Then look at this, he suggests that your cult criteria are clearly not enough. And that now we have to follow HIS criteria.
Quote
Prometheus
The cult criteria you list here are very limited. I have detailed cult criteria which i have gone over, they pretty much fit every single criteria to a T, including VTVS pat vacant monosyllabic denials ("Nope.")
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
[www.facebook.com]
Seriously. Case closed.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: March 05, 2011 12:51AM
David,
While I respect your opinion of Zeitgeist and AGREE with you on most points, I would advise dropping the "banning me is a form of abuse" line of argument. It is not helping OUR position and is helping TZM. It pains me to say that, but it is true. Any group running a message board has the right to ban whoever they want. Rick Ross can and does. TZM can and do. While it may say plenty about their lack of interest in transparency and full disclosure, it is their right. They are not the government, therefore notions of "free speech" simply don't apply.
There are many, MANY points on which to criticize TZM, particularly their ties to things like Triodos Bank, Larouche, and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Those are the points to be hammering them on, not accusing them of "abuse for banning me from their forum". Using a term like "abuse" for banning you not only gives them some high ground to argue from (notice VTV is far more interested in that point, which he can WIN points on, than addressing ties to Larouche, for example), but it also undermines the various levels of "abuse" that happen in cult situations.
Giving a kid LSD, then stabbing them and locking them in a closet (Anne Hamilton-Byrne) is ABUSE. Banning someone from an internet forum simply does not rise to that standard.
sincerely,
Shakti
While I respect your opinion of Zeitgeist and AGREE with you on most points, I would advise dropping the "banning me is a form of abuse" line of argument. It is not helping OUR position and is helping TZM. It pains me to say that, but it is true. Any group running a message board has the right to ban whoever they want. Rick Ross can and does. TZM can and do. While it may say plenty about their lack of interest in transparency and full disclosure, it is their right. They are not the government, therefore notions of "free speech" simply don't apply.
There are many, MANY points on which to criticize TZM, particularly their ties to things like Triodos Bank, Larouche, and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Those are the points to be hammering them on, not accusing them of "abuse for banning me from their forum". Using a term like "abuse" for banning you not only gives them some high ground to argue from (notice VTV is far more interested in that point, which he can WIN points on, than addressing ties to Larouche, for example), but it also undermines the various levels of "abuse" that happen in cult situations.
Giving a kid LSD, then stabbing them and locking them in a closet (Anne Hamilton-Byrne) is ABUSE. Banning someone from an internet forum simply does not rise to that standard.
sincerely,
Shakti
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 05, 2011 05:26AM
Quote
shakti
Posted this in other thread, but I think it belongs here as well:
David,
While I respect your opinion of Zeitgeist and AGREE with you on most points, I would advise dropping the "banning me is a form of abuse" line of argument. It is not helping OUR position and is helping TZM. It pains me to say that, but it is true. Any group running a message board has the right to ban whoever they want. Rick Ross can and does. TZM can and do. While it may say plenty about their lack of interest in transparency and full disclosure, it is their right. They are not the government, therefore notions of "free speech" simply don't apply.
There are many, MANY points on which to criticize TZM, particularly their ties to things like Triodos Bank, Larouche, and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Those are the points to be hammering them on, not accusing them of "abuse for banning me from their forum". Using a term like "abuse" for banning you not only gives them some high ground to argue from (notice VTV is far more interested in that point, which he can WIN points on, than addressing ties to Larouche, for example), but it also undermines the various levels of "abuse" that happen in cult situations.
Giving a kid LSD, then stabbing them and locking them in a closet (Anne Hamilton-Byrne) is ABUSE. Banning someone from an internet forum simply does not rise to that standard.
sincerely,
Shakti
I am deeply involved in the Zeitgeist movement at the top level. And we have no official involvement with the Tridoos Bank, anyone named Larouche, and I have already explained the issue about anti-semetism (Which there is none) and the fact that belief in or spreading the belief of conspiracy theories in NO WAY suggested as part of participation in this movement. Please tell me where in the Orientation guide there is any mention of any of the above?
What individual members or even groups of members get involved in is up to them. But our organization itself has no involvement with any of the entities you described. I didn't fail to address this. I thought it was silly to start with. As one of the editors of the newsletter, one of the global administrators of the website, and someone who speaks to all of the major coordinators, including frequent conversations with Peter Joseph, and Jacque Fresco this is the first I have ever heard of any "connection" implied much less proven of any such connection.
I anxiously await your evidence.
UPDATE: Upon investigating your post about the Tridos bank I sent an inquiry to Roxanne Meadows. I looked it over and am not sure what you think is insidious about it. Or "cult" like for that matter.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 05:36AM by VTV.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 05, 2011 06:13AM
Quote
VTVQuote
I said:
"And he made it clear he was going to come here and that my only way of stopping him was to get on my knees and beg forgiveness."Quote
Prometheus said:
"That i did say, but not about here. It is my express intention to report him and his cult to every single cult watch group until the cult is laughed out of existence."Quote
vtv
This is clear evidence that this is a personal vendetta, and little more.
What we find is that vtv is an ad hom junkie. He can't actually comment to the issues raised and he can't answer the actual points. He can make personal attacks, and thats all he can do.
He can
t answer the question of why i was banned, or why hes gone to the lengths to have such information deleted.
Even assuming that it is merely a personal vendetta, that does not change a thing. However it is not a personal vendetta, not at all.
The simple fact is that it is a cult. And him attacking me and making it personal only once again proves that all he has for an argument or defense is personal attacks.Quote
I said:
If you want an idea as to what sort of person he is ask him how many textbooks he has read, what his IQ is, and about his experiences with astral projection.Quote
vtvQuote
He said:
I have read 3000 textbooks. I am an aspie. I have a 180 IQ. Is there a problem?
I studied shamanism and world religions and I finally made it work. Is there a problem?
And earlier he said:Quote
This is particularly ludicrous from my pov as I am an Autodidactic aspie polymath, the genuine article. I also sing in 4 octaves, have perfect pitch, play the clarinet expertly... I could brag on and on but i will spare the forum
the details.
I want to stress this as it is important to me to follow the rules and avoid personal attack, but I am going to sum up what his own words here claim. But lets take one more quote from him:Quote
Prometheus
The cult props him up, lies about what hes actually got to offer, and makes him out to be some kind of super genius. Hes actually a really neat fellow but frankly quite a bit more average than all the pomp and noise.
Now I would ask anyone reading this to assess everything above. He has in this thread claimed to be able to astrally project. That he has an IQ of 180, that he has read over 3,000 textbooks, and in the past that his credentials due to this include no less then 30 academic degrees. He claims to sing in 4 octaves, has perfect pitch, etc.
In reference to his accusations about Jacque Fresco Is it possible that there is some "psychological projection" going on here?
This is laughable, its just one run on ad hom. Th fact of the matter is that jaques does not have even a tiny fraction of the real self education that I do and neither does anybody in the cult.
Making this conversation about ME is a fine way to distract from the issues at hand, but in the long run it only proves my point.Quote
vtv
I would also point out that there is now plenty of proof that there is a personal vendetta being pursued here.
Him spinning and trying to distort things into such does not constitute proof. It does show that what he actually is is and ad hom junkie. when puch comes to shove thats all he has.
He can't defend the points so he goes on the offensive.Quote
vtv
He repeats that being banned from the forums in his view "unjustly" is cult abuse. Both he and Mr. Wish have repeated this accusation over and over again. They have ignored the very structured arguments I have offered that prove this is simply wrong.
We have not ignored your arguments, and they do not prove that it is wrong. Having secret ss police forum mods is wrong, and the fact that they are secret is only one main characteristic of how they act and what they do.
The fact of the matter is that this is done to avoid accountability and transparency, not for any good reason.
The fact of the matter is that the mods are abusive and apply the rules as such at their whim and unevenly, favoring you and your double standard of ad homming and etc.Quote
vtv
And then they play the "he is a habitual liar" card any time I give a point of data that they cannot obviously refute.
He is a chronic habitual liar. Whats hard to grasp? He can't and won't answer the issue of my record of his ad homs against me or the conditions under which i was banned. Hes just hoping to
sweep these things under the carpet. The conditions under which i was banned prove that he is a liar, and a scam artist, and him coming here and saying that there is no abuse also proves that he is a liar and scam artist.Quote
vtv
I asked them to prove abuse and they have failed to do so again and again
VTV ignoring the evidence presented is not any failure to present such evidence.
I have linked to the evidence at my site.Quote
vtv
and continue to repeat the notion that the treatment they received is evidence of cult abuse. When I asked Prometheus above to provide evidence of real abuse, including sexual abuse, molestation, physical intimidation etc he again offered a link to his wiki that allegedly has links I deleted from the forums. In other words, no sexual abuse, molestation, physical intimidation, etc.
VTV is under the misguided idea that abuse to be real must exist in the physical universe.Quote
vtv
Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to you again that this sort of behavior is why these people were banned from our forums. Not because we are some sort of evil cult. But because it would be unreasonable to put up with this sort of thing for long periods of time.
Again, this is a lie, anybody who looks at my record of the incident shows that I did nothing wrong on their forums at all, and was attacked and then banned for pointing out that VTV was verbally attacking somebody else.Quote
vtv
As they have failed to even attempt to provide proof of any of their allegations,
we provided proof, you saying we did not is merely at this point rhetorical BS ing.Quote
vtv
the most that could even be POSSIBLE here is that I am a bad moderator. And that does not make TZM a cult.
We have two people here with a clear vendetta.
Again, he keeps repeating this lie as if he thinks by saying it over and over he can hypnotize you with ad homs.Quote
vtv
Seriously. Case closed.
Again, vtv proves he is a control freak, and that he thinks he can tell everyone when and how the situation is over.
He a liar and a con artist. He has ignored the proofs i have posted of his abuse, and he can't and won't answer the question of why i was banned or under what circumstances that occurred.
He can't and won't answer the question of why he deleted all of those threads from the forums, and he can't and won't answer the actual proofs posted of his and the cults abuse, all he can do is hope that you all
don't go look for yourselves, and try to make believe that the evidence is not there or does not exist.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 05, 2011 06:19AM
Quote
shakti
David,
While I respect your opinion of Zeitgeist and AGREE with you on most points, I would advise dropping the "banning me is a form of abuse" line of argument. It is not helping OUR position and is helping TZM. It pains me to say that, but it is true. Any group running a message board has the right to ban whoever they want. Rick Ross can and does. TZM can and do. While it may say plenty about their lack of interest in transparency and full disclosure, it is their right. They are not the government, therefore notions of "free speech" simply don't apply.
There are many, MANY points on which to criticize TZM, particularly their ties to things like Triodos Bank, Larouche, and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Those are the points to be hammering them on, not accusing them of "abuse for banning me from their forum". Using a term like "abuse" for banning you not only gives them some high ground to argue from (notice VTV is far more interested in that point, which he can WIN points on, than addressing ties to Larouche, for example), but it also undermines the various levels of "abuse" that happen in cult situations.
Giving a kid LSD, then stabbing them and locking them in a closet (Anne Hamilton-Byrne) is ABUSE. Banning someone from an internet forum simply does not rise to that standard.
sincerely,
Shakti
I am sorry but The actual truth of the situation is that banning people unjustly and without cause as a form of censorship, and having secret mods, and having secret mods particularly who do and act and behave as these do, is in fact a proof and a reliable one, that TZM is a cult.
Banning people because you failed to get them to lick your boots, banning people because they did not roll over after 30 ad homs, banning people because they won't play the pack psychology intimidation game, banning people because of real and legitamate criticism- is wrong. Period. Dead wrong. And Running a fascist totalitarian forum complete with secret police is itself the icing on the cake; every detail of the forums actual "moderation" structure is fascist. They ban people for protesting the atheist troll trip. They ban people for telling them it makes no sense to attack the money system or to promote riots in the streets. They ban people just because VTV or Thunder attack them 20 times.
The secret mod situation and what they do is in fact something which fits into that pattern, and which proves that they are in every sense and every way mirroring and echoing a fascist dictatorship as the actual form of government of their forum.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 05, 2011 06:21AM
Prometheuspan:
Frankly I don't see the connection between "cults" and being banned from a message board.
And repeating this doesn't make it any more convincing.
Frankly I don't see the connection between "cults" and being banned from a message board.
And repeating this doesn't make it any more convincing.
Re: Zeitgeist and "Warning signs" of a potentially unsafe group
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 05, 2011 06:30AM
And, here is the kicker, readers.
Lool what resulted from all posts directed towards David Wish.
This drew additional readers.
More contributors arrived.
Yet more readers arrived.
The view count soarded and the more Google hits for this thread.
And, it is interesting that the German equivalent of Facebook wrote that they did not care to debate the matter when ZM lost its account with them.
[lotus-online.de]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote:
This is the actual message sent to the group admin:
Hallo,
wir haben Deine Gruppe „Zeitgeist-Revolution.de“ gelöscht. Sogenannte Zeitgeist-Gruppen werden im VZ nicht länger akzeptiert. Allerdings möchten wir auch darlegen, weshalb wir uns zu diesem Schritt entschieden haben.
Es ist nicht unsere Absicht alternative Meinungen und Nachrichten zu behindern oder zu unterbinden, aber wir beobachten seit einige Zeit mit großer Sorge die Entwicklung der Theorien, die z.B. durch die Zeitgeist-Filme angestoßen wurden.
Die Ideen von grauen Eminenzen, Eliten oder Geheimbünden, die im Hintergrund die Fäden ziehen, ist nicht neu. Die Zeitgeist-Filme weiten diese Idee auch auf das Wirtschaftswesen aus. Und da schließt sich ein Kreis innerhalb der Geschichte der Verschwörungstheorien: Latenter Antisemitismus, der immer wieder in vielen der formulierten Theorien durchscheint.
Zum Beispiel in der Idee vom bösen, raffenden Kapital, welches ja letztlich für die Wirtschaftskrise verantwortlich ist und über Mäzenatentum und ähnliche Mittel der Einflussnahme auf die Weltpolitik einwirken, um diese nach ihrem Interesse zu lenken.
Wir sehen davon ab den Antisemitismus zu erklären oder zu diskutieren, weil wir von unseren Gruppengründen erwarten, dass sie sich mit den Problemfeldern ihrer Gruppenthemen auseinandergesetzt haben.
Weiter bitten wir Dich keine weiteren Gruppen zu diesem Themen zu gründen, da dies ansonsten zu einer Sperrung oder Löschung Deines Profils führen kann.
Danke für Dein Verständnis,
Das VZ Team
translation (given in the text of the cited article): (corboy bolded and underlined for emphasis)
Hello,
we deleted your group "ZG-revolution.de". So called ZG groups are no longer accepted in studiVZ. Anyhow, we want to give you the reason for our action. It is not our intension to supress alternative opinions or news, but we see with worries the developement of new theories that have been pushed, for example by the ZG movies.
The idea of gray eminences, elites or secret societies that control politics from behind the curtain is not new. The ZG movies extend these ideas to the economic system.
And here the circle of the history of conspiracy theories closes: latent antisemitism, which shines through many of the formulated theories. For example the idea of the bad, grupping capital, which is responsible for the financial crisis and also patronage and similar means to take influence into world politic to control and guide them in their interest.
We will not explain or discuss this antisemitism, because we expect the group founders to be aware of the problematic content of their group themes. We urge you to not found any new groups with this topic or you account and profil will be deleted.
thanks for you attention, the VZ team.
Lool what resulted from all posts directed towards David Wish.
This drew additional readers.
More contributors arrived.
Yet more readers arrived.
The view count soarded and the more Google hits for this thread.
And, it is interesting that the German equivalent of Facebook wrote that they did not care to debate the matter when ZM lost its account with them.
[lotus-online.de]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote:
This is the actual message sent to the group admin:
Hallo,
wir haben Deine Gruppe „Zeitgeist-Revolution.de“ gelöscht. Sogenannte Zeitgeist-Gruppen werden im VZ nicht länger akzeptiert. Allerdings möchten wir auch darlegen, weshalb wir uns zu diesem Schritt entschieden haben.
Es ist nicht unsere Absicht alternative Meinungen und Nachrichten zu behindern oder zu unterbinden, aber wir beobachten seit einige Zeit mit großer Sorge die Entwicklung der Theorien, die z.B. durch die Zeitgeist-Filme angestoßen wurden.
Die Ideen von grauen Eminenzen, Eliten oder Geheimbünden, die im Hintergrund die Fäden ziehen, ist nicht neu. Die Zeitgeist-Filme weiten diese Idee auch auf das Wirtschaftswesen aus. Und da schließt sich ein Kreis innerhalb der Geschichte der Verschwörungstheorien: Latenter Antisemitismus, der immer wieder in vielen der formulierten Theorien durchscheint.
Zum Beispiel in der Idee vom bösen, raffenden Kapital, welches ja letztlich für die Wirtschaftskrise verantwortlich ist und über Mäzenatentum und ähnliche Mittel der Einflussnahme auf die Weltpolitik einwirken, um diese nach ihrem Interesse zu lenken.
Wir sehen davon ab den Antisemitismus zu erklären oder zu diskutieren, weil wir von unseren Gruppengründen erwarten, dass sie sich mit den Problemfeldern ihrer Gruppenthemen auseinandergesetzt haben.
Weiter bitten wir Dich keine weiteren Gruppen zu diesem Themen zu gründen, da dies ansonsten zu einer Sperrung oder Löschung Deines Profils führen kann.
Danke für Dein Verständnis,
Das VZ Team
translation (given in the text of the cited article): (corboy bolded and underlined for emphasis)
Hello,
we deleted your group "ZG-revolution.de". So called ZG groups are no longer accepted in studiVZ. Anyhow, we want to give you the reason for our action. It is not our intension to supress alternative opinions or news, but we see with worries the developement of new theories that have been pushed, for example by the ZG movies.
The idea of gray eminences, elites or secret societies that control politics from behind the curtain is not new. The ZG movies extend these ideas to the economic system.
And here the circle of the history of conspiracy theories closes: latent antisemitism, which shines through many of the formulated theories. For example the idea of the bad, grupping capital, which is responsible for the financial crisis and also patronage and similar means to take influence into world politic to control and guide them in their interest.
We will not explain or discuss this antisemitism, because we expect the group founders to be aware of the problematic content of their group themes. We urge you to not found any new groups with this topic or you account and profil will be deleted.
thanks for you attention, the VZ team.
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