Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
iwanttobewell
()
Date: November 28, 2010 11:26PM
Ihardingly -
Let me guess. You work for Liquid Church? I know how they troll the interwebs constantly, and the second they see anything negative they come to quick defense. Dude (or Lady, but probably Dude) - I know you feel strongly about the church while you're in it. They breed an atmosphere of extreme loyalty (remember the "rules for living" sheet they handed out?). Many employees there, when I left, were pretty mad at me, until they saw what I and the 5 other employees who left with me saw. And then the emails starting to pour in about how they hated it there and wanted to leave.
As for the love and respect series, did you actually listen to it? because I had about 20 church members come up to me afterwards (including employees) who felt it was misogynistic and were offended at the thought that women didn't need respect, just "love'.
Ihardingly - I hope that you see what I am talking about and leave before you are deeply hurt. To get you started, check out this checklist - "Is your church free from cultic tendencies?". Think about Liquid and answer these honestly:
Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, etc? (no)
Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is he approachable? (no)
Does your pastor give equal attention to all kinds of people in his congregation? (no)
Does your pastor readily admit his errors? (HA!)
Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)? (no)
Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave? (NO)
Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed? (oh, I could tell you stores about this one)
Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together? (Resounding no. Just ask the wives of the big three.)
Do you think more about God and Jesus than you do about your pastor and church? (take an employee poll and see.)
Let me guess. You work for Liquid Church? I know how they troll the interwebs constantly, and the second they see anything negative they come to quick defense. Dude (or Lady, but probably Dude) - I know you feel strongly about the church while you're in it. They breed an atmosphere of extreme loyalty (remember the "rules for living" sheet they handed out?). Many employees there, when I left, were pretty mad at me, until they saw what I and the 5 other employees who left with me saw. And then the emails starting to pour in about how they hated it there and wanted to leave.
As for the love and respect series, did you actually listen to it? because I had about 20 church members come up to me afterwards (including employees) who felt it was misogynistic and were offended at the thought that women didn't need respect, just "love'.
Ihardingly - I hope that you see what I am talking about and leave before you are deeply hurt. To get you started, check out this checklist - "Is your church free from cultic tendencies?". Think about Liquid and answer these honestly:
Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, etc? (no)
Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is he approachable? (no)
Does your pastor give equal attention to all kinds of people in his congregation? (no)
Does your pastor readily admit his errors? (HA!)
Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)? (no)
Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave? (NO)
Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed? (oh, I could tell you stores about this one)
Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together? (Resounding no. Just ask the wives of the big three.)
Do you think more about God and Jesus than you do about your pastor and church? (take an employee poll and see.)
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
Skeptic51
()
Date: October 09, 2014 01:43AM
I think we often confuse the message for the leader, the religion for the people in the church. The message is what counts. The people that deliver it and the people that receive it are flawed. (There is only one leader that was perfect and even he was known to have a temper now and again and worked his people until they could not even stay awake.)
I have attended Liquid for about 5 months. Tim and the other pastors certainly have a charismatic style but isn't that what people are looking for after decades of priests who sound like Ben Stein (the science teacher in Ferris Bueller's day off)?
Of course in a charismatic church, especially one growing so rapidly, you can worry that the pastor will come to think that it is all about him and not the message. It is a human temptation, one that anyone can fall into.
I have been cautious waiting to hear if the message took this turn and it has not. If it does, I am out, but hopefully that won't happen.
Not having a board of elders is an interesting point. It would provide a sense of control but let me add this. I have been to churches where the priest started pandering to the congregation, watering down what God expects of them. Why? Because he is worried about losing members. Tim has not done that. The message has been tough to hear sometimes. For example the last four weeks have been about porn and sexual purity. Tough message. Would a committee of elders censor the message to the least offensive common denominator. It is worth considering.
So give it a chance. Listen to the message and remember the pastor is just a man who himself will certainly fall short of living what he preaches. But I am human too so I will allow him to stumble, as long as the message stays true.
Side note: Liquid refers to the scripture passage about Christ being the living water. Drink it an never go thirsty again. Liquid Church also sponsors a lot of clean well projects in the third world. Questionable name from a marketing perspective? I will give you that.
I have attended Liquid for about 5 months. Tim and the other pastors certainly have a charismatic style but isn't that what people are looking for after decades of priests who sound like Ben Stein (the science teacher in Ferris Bueller's day off)?
Of course in a charismatic church, especially one growing so rapidly, you can worry that the pastor will come to think that it is all about him and not the message. It is a human temptation, one that anyone can fall into.
I have been cautious waiting to hear if the message took this turn and it has not. If it does, I am out, but hopefully that won't happen.
Not having a board of elders is an interesting point. It would provide a sense of control but let me add this. I have been to churches where the priest started pandering to the congregation, watering down what God expects of them. Why? Because he is worried about losing members. Tim has not done that. The message has been tough to hear sometimes. For example the last four weeks have been about porn and sexual purity. Tough message. Would a committee of elders censor the message to the least offensive common denominator. It is worth considering.
So give it a chance. Listen to the message and remember the pastor is just a man who himself will certainly fall short of living what he preaches. But I am human too so I will allow him to stumble, as long as the message stays true.
Side note: Liquid refers to the scripture passage about Christ being the living water. Drink it an never go thirsty again. Liquid Church also sponsors a lot of clean well projects in the third world. Questionable name from a marketing perspective? I will give you that.
Discernment Aid
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 09, 2014 10:30AM
Here are some basic warning signs regarding a potentially unsafe group.
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Ten signs of a safe group/leader.
A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Ten signs of a safe group/leader.
A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
CovLass
()
Date: October 12, 2014 08:19AM
Skeptic51
Are you saying that because Jesus overturned the tables of the money lenders that it is ok for the pastor to scream and shout at people? Or that because the disciples fell asleep when Jesus asked them to pray, that it is ok to work church staff to the point of exhaustion?
As for a minister saying that he can't have a board of elders because they would want to water the message down, does that mean he thinks he is the only one who can hear from God, the only one who will be totally true to Gods word?
From someone who spent time in a destructive church I smell something fishy here. I have never been to liquid church, New Jersey, or even the USA for that matter. However, it's like people were describing elements of the church I went to.
Are you saying that because Jesus overturned the tables of the money lenders that it is ok for the pastor to scream and shout at people? Or that because the disciples fell asleep when Jesus asked them to pray, that it is ok to work church staff to the point of exhaustion?
As for a minister saying that he can't have a board of elders because they would want to water the message down, does that mean he thinks he is the only one who can hear from God, the only one who will be totally true to Gods word?
From someone who spent time in a destructive church I smell something fishy here. I have never been to liquid church, New Jersey, or even the USA for that matter. However, it's like people were describing elements of the church I went to.
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
Skeptic51
()
Date: October 22, 2014 12:13AM
You have obviously had a bad experience at your church. You are hurt and angry. I am sorry for that. I have not had a bad experience at Liquid. I hope you can accept that.
There are always going go be similarities that can corroborate or have nothing to do with what you seek to prove. A person with passion can do great things. A person with passion can do horrible things. I don't think we are saying that people should not have passion.
Is it okay to scream and yell? I certainly hope it can be avoided. Is it never appropriate to raise your voice? Uncertain. Do good people sometimes raise their voice when it could have been avoided? Certainly. Did this ever occur at Liquid Church? I cannot say but I would be surprised if there was ever a group of passionate people where it did not occur.
I did not say that he is the only person that can deliver the word. In fact, there are other pastors that routinely provide the sermon and share their own personal experience.
You end by saying that you have never been to Liquid Church but you seem to want to cast aspersions. That is a shame because all of the sermons are on line.
Again, the church is about the message so listen to the message and then see if you have an issue.
It is easy to be a cynic. There is so much to be cynical about. So easy to join the cynics because so many well intention people have fallen short of their philosophies.
So if you are looking for a perfect person to deliver the perfect message, I am sorry for you. You will always be looking.
However, I suggest you instead look for someone delivering the right message and striving himself to be true to it.
There are always going go be similarities that can corroborate or have nothing to do with what you seek to prove. A person with passion can do great things. A person with passion can do horrible things. I don't think we are saying that people should not have passion.
Is it okay to scream and yell? I certainly hope it can be avoided. Is it never appropriate to raise your voice? Uncertain. Do good people sometimes raise their voice when it could have been avoided? Certainly. Did this ever occur at Liquid Church? I cannot say but I would be surprised if there was ever a group of passionate people where it did not occur.
I did not say that he is the only person that can deliver the word. In fact, there are other pastors that routinely provide the sermon and share their own personal experience.
You end by saying that you have never been to Liquid Church but you seem to want to cast aspersions. That is a shame because all of the sermons are on line.
Again, the church is about the message so listen to the message and then see if you have an issue.
It is easy to be a cynic. There is so much to be cynical about. So easy to join the cynics because so many well intention people have fallen short of their philosophies.
So if you are looking for a perfect person to deliver the perfect message, I am sorry for you. You will always be looking.
However, I suggest you instead look for someone delivering the right message and striving himself to be true to it.
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
iwanttobewell
()
Date: May 15, 2015 08:43PM
How can I contact a moderator? I have a question about this thread...
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
jlfree
()
Date: May 15, 2015 10:37PM
There is a private messaging system.
How to contact moderator Rick Ross
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 15, 2015 11:08PM
How to contact the moderator:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2015 11:33PM by corboy.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2015 11:33PM by corboy.
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
Johnhus2014
()
Date: January 06, 2016 10:25PM
You must understand the emergent church has no real doctrines or beliefs the no doctrine is right or wrong the ancient creeds the Anastasia apostolic and nicene are not a basic of their church foundation they allow for any and all strange expressions of worship with a rock concert atmosphere to draw people out the latest stunt of using Star Wars was a joke and appalling and insult each to Christians who worship and believe in the Christian faith Tim Lucas is no pastor he is a man with no formal education or training as a pastor who leads a church and thinks that his showmanship and entertainment value will lead people to Christ I bet most come a few times and never return because they are only interested for a short time in this kind of church atmosphere
Re: Liquid Church
Posted by:
unbiased observer
()
Date: April 28, 2016 08:38AM
Interesting how those who are most likely not even Christian or have a problem with God knit pick at others. 99% of the complaints on this thread are bogus in my opinion, and to the kooks, no, I do not work for them but I do attend services but the strange thing is I know more about Liquid than the guy who "worked there.".
There is plenty of accountability.Tim Lucas does not control the check book for the guy so concerned with finances. There is a board of Pastors so there again another "falsehood" presented here.
If you want to know whether or not they are a "cult" as is claimed by the thread, why don't you make an informed decision. Take the time and listen to a sermon from Liquid. Don't stop after 5 minutes. Give it a full and fair hearing, then decide.
[www.liquidchurch.com]
There is plenty of accountability.Tim Lucas does not control the check book for the guy so concerned with finances. There is a board of Pastors so there again another "falsehood" presented here.
If you want to know whether or not they are a "cult" as is claimed by the thread, why don't you make an informed decision. Take the time and listen to a sermon from Liquid. Don't stop after 5 minutes. Give it a full and fair hearing, then decide.
[www.liquidchurch.com]
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