Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Maple
()
Date: June 21, 2010 01:26PM
I’ve attended a weekend TT workshop led by some national leaders. I’ve attended subsequent meetings with local groups 6-7, I’d say. I was looking for information on your site about TT’s and found this thread. I’m an ex-member of two groups (ex for quite some time) and have spent a lot of time educating myself about cults. I generally check any group with which I’m considering involvement. I’ve never contributed to Rickross, but hope my experience will be of use, since I’ve used the information here. I’m not here to debate, just to share observations from my workshop and subsequent meetings and reflections on those based on my previous experience/understanding of cults. Some other things about me:
1. I’m a long time environmentalist, going back to the 1970’s. My (new age) cult involvement used environmental issues to recruit. The issues were legitimate. The group was not. Part of the pain I feel about my involvement with that group was that it diverted me from effective practical involvement with environmental issues, wasting my time and resources. Thus, it has hurt the environmental movement in some small way.
2. I’ve done a lot of reading about peak oil online and in books, and believe that it is an important concern, as is global warming, overpopulation, etc. I’ve been interested in how “re-localization efforts” might be of value to a community, things like farmer’s markets, local gardening, buying locally, etc. I think these are all legitimate. For me, the jury is still out on the usefulness of the TT groups.
3. I’m posting because I thought my own experience with TT and my first-hand knowledge of cults (along with lots of study afterwards) might be useful. Here are some of the good and the bad.
My Experience at the Workshop
I attended the weekend training session in my community for people interested in addressing environmental concerns with the TT Model. I liked that it focused on relocalization. I liked that there were a number of people I knew there, people who were leaders in various aspects of the environmental movement. There were a number of mainstream professionals. These are folks who are, like I am, passionate about the environment and willing to take on extra work in their lives to address our environmental concerns, to try and make a difference. There were also some new-agey types, people I tend to shy away from, since one of the cults I’d been associated with was new-agey. While not all new age stuff is a cult, they seem to have more than their share.
Because I’d already absorbed the “really bad news” about climate change, peak oil, etc., I didn’t find that part of the workshop to be alarming in an acute way. Here’s a summary about what I found useful and not so useful in the training.
What I liked:
1. A community effort IS needed to address many of the things facing us, since these are community systems (food production, transportation, heating, etc.).
2. I’ve been a proponent of local community strengthening for a long time, and have served on various committees in my home and work communities to that end. One of these committees was a county emergency response planning team, but this would be for a tornado, epidemic, terrorist attack, or other emergency, not peak oil/climate change. I’ve seen no other groups systematically addressing the concerns around peak oil/climate change. However, it is a very different type of problem to address, since no one knows how peak oil or climate change will play out. It’s hard enough to plan for an emergency that is specific (like a fire), but this has too many unknowns for that type of a plan. When the peak oil folks make specific predictions, they often fall short and people discredit them. However, there are observable trends that are playing out that are consistent with peak oil. This means that people like Heinberg, Ruppert, Kunstler, etc. will often be wrong in specifics, but the trends reported by them are observable. However, planning for a specific emergency is much easier than planning for a trend. I definitely give the TT folks points for trying.
3. If peak oil is going to be a slow decline (descent, or crash, take your pick of terms), or if climate change is going to affect us relatively slowly, putting local systems in place makes every bit of sense. Since we are not sure of how fast or slow the decline in either will be, we may as well give it a shot. Whatever we can build will be a net gain. This type of planning is a necessary condition, but whether it will be a sufficient one is another question. TT’s are saying, try anyway. I’m ok with that.
4. An important goal of this group is to try to coordinate local efforts that already exist (the Energy Descent Action Plan). This seems sensible.
5. There is this idea that a small group of committed people can change the world. This appears to be sometimes true. Bringing such people together could be important.
6. They used something called “Open Space Technology” during the workshop I attended. I thought this was a great way for people to participate from their own base of experience and do some group problem solving. It’s too bad that more time was not devoted to this instead of the annoying New Agey stuff (see below).
7. The foundation for this group appears to be Permaculture (permanent agriculture, based in ecological principles, some people call permaculture “ecological gardening” It is related to agroforestry.), not the Steiner model, biodynamics, which never attracted me, so I never learned much beyond the one book I read, which seemed overly complicated and somewhat contrived. I found the Weston Price stuff to be too rigid and have had one shrill woman at the farmer’s market insist that a genetic condition I have could be cured with the principles of Weston Price. I have gardened for quite some time and am pretty excited with the permaculture model, though. Gaia’s Garden is a wonderful book, as is the two-volume set “Edible Forest Gardening.” The EFG books are fairly complex, but they don’t seem to be jargon or illogical in any way that I can discern. One goal of some permaculturists appears to be to influence people to grow more of their own food, edible landscaping, things like that. I think that this is a really, really great idea and am glad these books were written. This group is attempting to apply permaculture to restoring communities in our lives. The EFG set does use some patterns as a part of the framework, somewhat like architect Alexander’s “Pattern Language” idea. It looks as though the TT’s are adopting that model, perhaps influenced by the EFG work. This seems better than the 12 step model.
What I didn’t like:
1. If people are scared and their moorings are crumbling, they are more susceptible to thought control. The environmental crisis/economic collapse in world economies appears to be very real. From my point of view climate/oil are not debateable, there is too much convincing evidence for those who care to look and debates about them are time wasters. The collapsing economy was predicted as part of these trends. (How many people do you personally know who are being affected by the collapsing economy? ) In the anti-cult movement we know that with any such crisis the con artists, cult leaders are going to step right in. It is like a magnetic force for them, it seems. It is my opinion that any group that attempts to address the crisis we are experiencing would be wise to address openly the problem of opportunists or worse who may try to take over. Cult-proofing, con-proofing should be a priority. To my knowledge TT has not done this. This does not mean that they are trying to con or using thought control. It’s possible, but my guess is that it is due to inexperience in these things. However, it is foreseeable that if leaders are going to arise in local groups, a damaging proportion will be cons/cult leaders.
2. I’ve long felt that an insistence on “positive thinking” is sinister at worst, misguided at best. I’m not a fan of positive thinking, in other words. This message turned me off in the way it was presented at the training I attended. The idea that you can help people absorb an alarming message by sugar-coating it is misguided, IMHO. If the message here is that we can look at a horrible situation and do our best to understand what we need to do it, then actually take action to do that, is my idea of a constructive (not “positive”) message. In my experience, people are more reassured, in the long run, by facing facts and trying to address them seriously. As an ex-member, I’m painfully aware of the sinister uses of positive thinking in thought control, particularly when people are scared and have their mooring collapsing. Barbara Ehrenrich (sp?) in her recent book “Bright-sided” describes the way the positive thinking meme is ubiquitous, so I’m giving TT the benefit of the doubt on this one. If a former president of the American Psychological Association can be “the father of positive psychology,” I do think this may be an innocent mistake. A suggestion would be to rethink this direction and not just go along with pop culture.
3. The place that most warning bells went off for me were in the “heart and soul” part, the guided meditations and pop psychology exercises that were part of the workshop. First, they were at odds with my own spirituality. I found it disrespectful to be expected to participate in these spiritual meditations when I did not share a belief in them. If I decide to attend a house of worship in a different faith than my own, I expect this, for instance a funeral or wedding. I may participate out of respect for a friend or family member. For me, this is a huge problem in a workshop like this. The people leading these consider them spiritually generic, somehow neutral, but they are far from that. I don’t believe in reincarnation, nor that I somehow voluntarily chose to be born during this time to help. This material is from Joanna Macy apparently, and I respect her spirituality, I just don’t share it. In my opinion, these leaders are being disrespectful of people of other faiths in seeing that this material is not somehow universal, generic or neutral. I did attend some meetings after the workshop and found this to be a regular feature, and decided it just didn’t work for me. There is one woman who has taken over a leadership role who does this at every gathering. I’ve mentioned it a few times, but to no avail. If spirituality seems to be important, I’d suggest giving time for each person to consider, in silence, what the spiritual and/or ethical implications are for him or her. This need not be shared with anyone and would respect each person’s faith and/or ethical stance. There might also be support groups (not during the workshop) for people of various faiths, to consider how spirituality/ethics for this issue might work within their framework.
4. The psychology part of the workshop is too pop psychology for me. Pop psychology is often used for thought control. So, while I agree with the premise that we do need to consider psychological aspects that we will all be facing, the ways in which they are being done seems somewhat manipulative. I did not like or agree with the exercises we did. When I tried, very respectfully, to question the premises of these exercises in the training, I got rudely brushed off then and later. The leader just wouldn’t hear of it, nor did she seem willing to discuss it later. This also is a warning sign for me. I’ve led groups and have at times shushed people myself due to time constraints. However, I always approach them afterwards to give them a hearing and discuss any ideas or concerns. If they approach me (as I did with the leader), I definitely hear them out and am willing to dialogue with them. It was a red flag that the workshop leader was unwilling to do this and brushed me off. I felt as though she slammed the door in my face, actually. Again, it may just be adopting the wider culture’s pop psychology stance by someone not too well trained in psychology, and thus unable to carry on a dialogue but this part definitely needs to be cleaned up for me to feel good about it.
5. To take this a step further, I think the addictions model has been overused as an explanation and such is the case here. While an addiction to oil may be a convenient metaphor, it’s just that, a metaphor, a dramatic way of presenting what is a huge problem. On the other hand, consumerism might more legitimately be equated with addiction. The advertising industry does indeed try to hook people, and sometimes, as with big tobacco, addiction is very direct. On the other hand, oil is a part of our industrial civilization, it has made that way of life in its current form possible. It is inextricably tied to economic systems (capitalism, communism, socialism, etc.) that rely on easy energy. Cultures that are tied to oil and exponential growth may have huge problems, but this is not addiction. It is a different thing than that. It is a way of life and in my opinion, the attempt to use an addictions model to understand it falls far short. An attempt to use the addictions model to understand consumerism is useful, on the other hand.
6. This may sound like splitting hairs, but it is the kind of analysis that I expected with the TT group and no one there appeared willing to engage in this kind of dialogue. The sense of urgency about the issues seems to preclude a careful analysis of the models they are using and a statement of the premises beyond “Peak oil is real” “Climate change is real.” and similar. I accept these premises, but the models used to address these should be open to examination as well. I am capable of both reflection and action. As an ex-member, when I am prevented from reflection by someone who feels action is urgent, I back away. This does not mean that the group is a cult, but being able to address the models and processes might make it more workable than I currently found it to be.
7. Although the group says that they value collaboration rather than an authoritarian approach, this does not ring true in my experience with them. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the TT folk, I will speculate that the severity of the problems we are facing cause people to panic and take shortcuts. But for me, the very heart of building community is to include people, particularly people who question some of the processes. During the Kennedy era, the term “groupthink” was coined after the Bay of Pigs disaster. An analysis showed that people did not want to rock the boat but just kept agreeing with those at the top. Good leaders solicit differing views. However, as Margaret Singer has noted, an authoritarian structure does not a cult make.
My conclusion is that there are some cultlike elements in this group, quite possibly because some of the leaders and some of the followers have themselves been in cults and have not clarified those experiences for themselves. (That saying, “You can take the person out of the cult, but it’s much harder to take the cult out of the person,” describes what I’m saying here.) Thus, these folks would be unconsciously transferring some of those practices to this group. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would say that forming another cult is not the top leaders’ intent. At the same time, the elements that are there leave the door open for cult-leader types to enter and people to be vulnerable to them. There were sufficient red flags that I did not feel comfortable either in the training led by national leaders or in the 8-10 local sessions I have attended.
I do feel Heinberg is ok, despite all the stuff written about him here. When I read of his association with the Emissaries of Divine Light I looked to see if he had anything to say about it. He actually did write on his blog or somewhere that he was involved with a spiritual community, but they were too authoritarian and he did not stay. I would think that some of his prior writings reflect that period of his life, but that he no longer has an interest in the obscure spiritual stuff, instead he turned his attention to peak oil, a more practical subject.
1. I’m a long time environmentalist, going back to the 1970’s. My (new age) cult involvement used environmental issues to recruit. The issues were legitimate. The group was not. Part of the pain I feel about my involvement with that group was that it diverted me from effective practical involvement with environmental issues, wasting my time and resources. Thus, it has hurt the environmental movement in some small way.
2. I’ve done a lot of reading about peak oil online and in books, and believe that it is an important concern, as is global warming, overpopulation, etc. I’ve been interested in how “re-localization efforts” might be of value to a community, things like farmer’s markets, local gardening, buying locally, etc. I think these are all legitimate. For me, the jury is still out on the usefulness of the TT groups.
3. I’m posting because I thought my own experience with TT and my first-hand knowledge of cults (along with lots of study afterwards) might be useful. Here are some of the good and the bad.
My Experience at the Workshop
I attended the weekend training session in my community for people interested in addressing environmental concerns with the TT Model. I liked that it focused on relocalization. I liked that there were a number of people I knew there, people who were leaders in various aspects of the environmental movement. There were a number of mainstream professionals. These are folks who are, like I am, passionate about the environment and willing to take on extra work in their lives to address our environmental concerns, to try and make a difference. There were also some new-agey types, people I tend to shy away from, since one of the cults I’d been associated with was new-agey. While not all new age stuff is a cult, they seem to have more than their share.
Because I’d already absorbed the “really bad news” about climate change, peak oil, etc., I didn’t find that part of the workshop to be alarming in an acute way. Here’s a summary about what I found useful and not so useful in the training.
What I liked:
1. A community effort IS needed to address many of the things facing us, since these are community systems (food production, transportation, heating, etc.).
2. I’ve been a proponent of local community strengthening for a long time, and have served on various committees in my home and work communities to that end. One of these committees was a county emergency response planning team, but this would be for a tornado, epidemic, terrorist attack, or other emergency, not peak oil/climate change. I’ve seen no other groups systematically addressing the concerns around peak oil/climate change. However, it is a very different type of problem to address, since no one knows how peak oil or climate change will play out. It’s hard enough to plan for an emergency that is specific (like a fire), but this has too many unknowns for that type of a plan. When the peak oil folks make specific predictions, they often fall short and people discredit them. However, there are observable trends that are playing out that are consistent with peak oil. This means that people like Heinberg, Ruppert, Kunstler, etc. will often be wrong in specifics, but the trends reported by them are observable. However, planning for a specific emergency is much easier than planning for a trend. I definitely give the TT folks points for trying.
3. If peak oil is going to be a slow decline (descent, or crash, take your pick of terms), or if climate change is going to affect us relatively slowly, putting local systems in place makes every bit of sense. Since we are not sure of how fast or slow the decline in either will be, we may as well give it a shot. Whatever we can build will be a net gain. This type of planning is a necessary condition, but whether it will be a sufficient one is another question. TT’s are saying, try anyway. I’m ok with that.
4. An important goal of this group is to try to coordinate local efforts that already exist (the Energy Descent Action Plan). This seems sensible.
5. There is this idea that a small group of committed people can change the world. This appears to be sometimes true. Bringing such people together could be important.
6. They used something called “Open Space Technology” during the workshop I attended. I thought this was a great way for people to participate from their own base of experience and do some group problem solving. It’s too bad that more time was not devoted to this instead of the annoying New Agey stuff (see below).
7. The foundation for this group appears to be Permaculture (permanent agriculture, based in ecological principles, some people call permaculture “ecological gardening” It is related to agroforestry.), not the Steiner model, biodynamics, which never attracted me, so I never learned much beyond the one book I read, which seemed overly complicated and somewhat contrived. I found the Weston Price stuff to be too rigid and have had one shrill woman at the farmer’s market insist that a genetic condition I have could be cured with the principles of Weston Price. I have gardened for quite some time and am pretty excited with the permaculture model, though. Gaia’s Garden is a wonderful book, as is the two-volume set “Edible Forest Gardening.” The EFG books are fairly complex, but they don’t seem to be jargon or illogical in any way that I can discern. One goal of some permaculturists appears to be to influence people to grow more of their own food, edible landscaping, things like that. I think that this is a really, really great idea and am glad these books were written. This group is attempting to apply permaculture to restoring communities in our lives. The EFG set does use some patterns as a part of the framework, somewhat like architect Alexander’s “Pattern Language” idea. It looks as though the TT’s are adopting that model, perhaps influenced by the EFG work. This seems better than the 12 step model.
What I didn’t like:
1. If people are scared and their moorings are crumbling, they are more susceptible to thought control. The environmental crisis/economic collapse in world economies appears to be very real. From my point of view climate/oil are not debateable, there is too much convincing evidence for those who care to look and debates about them are time wasters. The collapsing economy was predicted as part of these trends. (How many people do you personally know who are being affected by the collapsing economy? ) In the anti-cult movement we know that with any such crisis the con artists, cult leaders are going to step right in. It is like a magnetic force for them, it seems. It is my opinion that any group that attempts to address the crisis we are experiencing would be wise to address openly the problem of opportunists or worse who may try to take over. Cult-proofing, con-proofing should be a priority. To my knowledge TT has not done this. This does not mean that they are trying to con or using thought control. It’s possible, but my guess is that it is due to inexperience in these things. However, it is foreseeable that if leaders are going to arise in local groups, a damaging proportion will be cons/cult leaders.
2. I’ve long felt that an insistence on “positive thinking” is sinister at worst, misguided at best. I’m not a fan of positive thinking, in other words. This message turned me off in the way it was presented at the training I attended. The idea that you can help people absorb an alarming message by sugar-coating it is misguided, IMHO. If the message here is that we can look at a horrible situation and do our best to understand what we need to do it, then actually take action to do that, is my idea of a constructive (not “positive”) message. In my experience, people are more reassured, in the long run, by facing facts and trying to address them seriously. As an ex-member, I’m painfully aware of the sinister uses of positive thinking in thought control, particularly when people are scared and have their mooring collapsing. Barbara Ehrenrich (sp?) in her recent book “Bright-sided” describes the way the positive thinking meme is ubiquitous, so I’m giving TT the benefit of the doubt on this one. If a former president of the American Psychological Association can be “the father of positive psychology,” I do think this may be an innocent mistake. A suggestion would be to rethink this direction and not just go along with pop culture.
3. The place that most warning bells went off for me were in the “heart and soul” part, the guided meditations and pop psychology exercises that were part of the workshop. First, they were at odds with my own spirituality. I found it disrespectful to be expected to participate in these spiritual meditations when I did not share a belief in them. If I decide to attend a house of worship in a different faith than my own, I expect this, for instance a funeral or wedding. I may participate out of respect for a friend or family member. For me, this is a huge problem in a workshop like this. The people leading these consider them spiritually generic, somehow neutral, but they are far from that. I don’t believe in reincarnation, nor that I somehow voluntarily chose to be born during this time to help. This material is from Joanna Macy apparently, and I respect her spirituality, I just don’t share it. In my opinion, these leaders are being disrespectful of people of other faiths in seeing that this material is not somehow universal, generic or neutral. I did attend some meetings after the workshop and found this to be a regular feature, and decided it just didn’t work for me. There is one woman who has taken over a leadership role who does this at every gathering. I’ve mentioned it a few times, but to no avail. If spirituality seems to be important, I’d suggest giving time for each person to consider, in silence, what the spiritual and/or ethical implications are for him or her. This need not be shared with anyone and would respect each person’s faith and/or ethical stance. There might also be support groups (not during the workshop) for people of various faiths, to consider how spirituality/ethics for this issue might work within their framework.
4. The psychology part of the workshop is too pop psychology for me. Pop psychology is often used for thought control. So, while I agree with the premise that we do need to consider psychological aspects that we will all be facing, the ways in which they are being done seems somewhat manipulative. I did not like or agree with the exercises we did. When I tried, very respectfully, to question the premises of these exercises in the training, I got rudely brushed off then and later. The leader just wouldn’t hear of it, nor did she seem willing to discuss it later. This also is a warning sign for me. I’ve led groups and have at times shushed people myself due to time constraints. However, I always approach them afterwards to give them a hearing and discuss any ideas or concerns. If they approach me (as I did with the leader), I definitely hear them out and am willing to dialogue with them. It was a red flag that the workshop leader was unwilling to do this and brushed me off. I felt as though she slammed the door in my face, actually. Again, it may just be adopting the wider culture’s pop psychology stance by someone not too well trained in psychology, and thus unable to carry on a dialogue but this part definitely needs to be cleaned up for me to feel good about it.
5. To take this a step further, I think the addictions model has been overused as an explanation and such is the case here. While an addiction to oil may be a convenient metaphor, it’s just that, a metaphor, a dramatic way of presenting what is a huge problem. On the other hand, consumerism might more legitimately be equated with addiction. The advertising industry does indeed try to hook people, and sometimes, as with big tobacco, addiction is very direct. On the other hand, oil is a part of our industrial civilization, it has made that way of life in its current form possible. It is inextricably tied to economic systems (capitalism, communism, socialism, etc.) that rely on easy energy. Cultures that are tied to oil and exponential growth may have huge problems, but this is not addiction. It is a different thing than that. It is a way of life and in my opinion, the attempt to use an addictions model to understand it falls far short. An attempt to use the addictions model to understand consumerism is useful, on the other hand.
6. This may sound like splitting hairs, but it is the kind of analysis that I expected with the TT group and no one there appeared willing to engage in this kind of dialogue. The sense of urgency about the issues seems to preclude a careful analysis of the models they are using and a statement of the premises beyond “Peak oil is real” “Climate change is real.” and similar. I accept these premises, but the models used to address these should be open to examination as well. I am capable of both reflection and action. As an ex-member, when I am prevented from reflection by someone who feels action is urgent, I back away. This does not mean that the group is a cult, but being able to address the models and processes might make it more workable than I currently found it to be.
7. Although the group says that they value collaboration rather than an authoritarian approach, this does not ring true in my experience with them. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the TT folk, I will speculate that the severity of the problems we are facing cause people to panic and take shortcuts. But for me, the very heart of building community is to include people, particularly people who question some of the processes. During the Kennedy era, the term “groupthink” was coined after the Bay of Pigs disaster. An analysis showed that people did not want to rock the boat but just kept agreeing with those at the top. Good leaders solicit differing views. However, as Margaret Singer has noted, an authoritarian structure does not a cult make.
My conclusion is that there are some cultlike elements in this group, quite possibly because some of the leaders and some of the followers have themselves been in cults and have not clarified those experiences for themselves. (That saying, “You can take the person out of the cult, but it’s much harder to take the cult out of the person,” describes what I’m saying here.) Thus, these folks would be unconsciously transferring some of those practices to this group. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would say that forming another cult is not the top leaders’ intent. At the same time, the elements that are there leave the door open for cult-leader types to enter and people to be vulnerable to them. There were sufficient red flags that I did not feel comfortable either in the training led by national leaders or in the 8-10 local sessions I have attended.
I do feel Heinberg is ok, despite all the stuff written about him here. When I read of his association with the Emissaries of Divine Light I looked to see if he had anything to say about it. He actually did write on his blog or somewhere that he was involved with a spiritual community, but they were too authoritarian and he did not stay. I would think that some of his prior writings reflect that period of his life, but that he no longer has an interest in the obscure spiritual stuff, instead he turned his attention to peak oil, a more practical subject.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
OutofTransition
()
Date: June 22, 2010 10:23AM
Hi, Maple,
It sounds like your experience was similar to mine (minus the hysteria). I was especially interested in your comment that you had served on a county emergency response team. When I first heard about Transition Town, I was envisioning something along those lines. So I was quite unprepared for what I did find.
My feeling on the local group is that it is not a cult per se but that it seems to be dominated by loonies. At one of the meetings I heard about someone who knew someone who claimed to have cured his congestive heart failure by eating alfalfa sprouts. I am sorry, but it is very hard for me to sit and keep my mouth shut while listening to nonsense like that. Because I was envisioning something along the lines of emergency response/civil defense, I expected to see representatives from Red Cross, FEMA, EMTS, fire departments, local government officials, law enforcement, community leaders, that sort of thing, as well as concerned citizens like myself. These "authorities" were conspicuously absent--why? One would think these would be precisely the people to have on board, as they are the ones that have influence. Instead, I won't say that Transition is avoiding these people, but it doesn't seem like Transition is going out of its way to embrace them. It is almost as if they wish to set up a commune or even an alternative government instead of working with the duly elected one we already have. The use of local currency especially bothers me. What is the point?
If society really is about to collapse due to all the problems they state are happening, then it is all the more important that we work within the structures that have already been set up and which have stood the test of time, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and go back to a fantasy past. We need to find ways to preserve what we do have, otherwise we will sink into another Dark Age. It took centuries for Europe to regain what had been lost when the Roman Empire collapsed. We have the benefit of knowing what such a collapse would mean in overall standard of living. They did not. We need to be concerned with far more than just food production. What about medicine, science, technology, engineering? Manufacturing? Transportation?
I agree, we face great challenges in the future, but I do not think "woo-woo" and solstice ceremonies are going to save us.
It sounds like your experience was similar to mine (minus the hysteria). I was especially interested in your comment that you had served on a county emergency response team. When I first heard about Transition Town, I was envisioning something along those lines. So I was quite unprepared for what I did find.
My feeling on the local group is that it is not a cult per se but that it seems to be dominated by loonies. At one of the meetings I heard about someone who knew someone who claimed to have cured his congestive heart failure by eating alfalfa sprouts. I am sorry, but it is very hard for me to sit and keep my mouth shut while listening to nonsense like that. Because I was envisioning something along the lines of emergency response/civil defense, I expected to see representatives from Red Cross, FEMA, EMTS, fire departments, local government officials, law enforcement, community leaders, that sort of thing, as well as concerned citizens like myself. These "authorities" were conspicuously absent--why? One would think these would be precisely the people to have on board, as they are the ones that have influence. Instead, I won't say that Transition is avoiding these people, but it doesn't seem like Transition is going out of its way to embrace them. It is almost as if they wish to set up a commune or even an alternative government instead of working with the duly elected one we already have. The use of local currency especially bothers me. What is the point?
If society really is about to collapse due to all the problems they state are happening, then it is all the more important that we work within the structures that have already been set up and which have stood the test of time, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and go back to a fantasy past. We need to find ways to preserve what we do have, otherwise we will sink into another Dark Age. It took centuries for Europe to regain what had been lost when the Roman Empire collapsed. We have the benefit of knowing what such a collapse would mean in overall standard of living. They did not. We need to be concerned with far more than just food production. What about medicine, science, technology, engineering? Manufacturing? Transportation?
I agree, we face great challenges in the future, but I do not think "woo-woo" and solstice ceremonies are going to save us.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Maple
()
Date: June 23, 2010 11:06AM
Out of Transition, I do agree with you that many of the people I met were "out there" in ways that I did not appreciate. I myself use food, supplements and a few herbs for health reason and they have worked well. I do like to see some science or at least some consistent clinical evidence, when possible, though. I've had great luck with arthritis, for instance, using some supplements and avoiding certain foods. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of homeopathy at all. Unfortunately, most of mainstream medicine usually lumps together these things under the heading "alternative medicine." Why? because pharmaceutical companies don't like the competition, and they go after the supplement companies any time they can. I do use prescription drugs, too, but with more caution than the supplements, since I've had a few horrible reactions to the pharmaceuticals, none to supplements except perhaps an upset stomach.
I'm not just writing this to tell you my views about medicine, but rather to point to what I think may be one problem here. The "alternatives" group seem to be filled with many people who are averse to critical thinking and accept even the silliest theories and often get bamboozled by flim flam artists. The "mainstream" group has been too heavily indoctrinated by simplistic views, sound bites, really. They've been taught to mistrust alternatives, and are mainly comfortable with "business as usual." In the future (assuming peak oil and climate change as givens), we will badly need alternative ways of doing things. But we also need the expertise of the people who have dealt with various areas (EMT's, doctors, engineers), as you point out.
The alternative money idea is ok with me, though. If there is an economic collapse that accompanies other breakdowns, we will need to be able to do business. This could occur through runaway inflation, as it has in some other countries, including the Soviet Union as it was collapsing. While I could barter a chicken for some medical help, it would be better to have a way to do this through money. I don't think that the alternative is meant to replace the conventional money system outside of a crisis, but rather be a way to deal with local businesses. In the short term, it also helps strengthen local businesses. I've tried to shop locally when possible for at least the last 5 years, to strengthen my local community, anyway, so I think it would be in support of that. But also, if the monetary system collapsed, (like a run on the banks), people would still be able to do some business locally if such a system were in place. I may or may not like various "content" features of the TT's.
What I really objected to in TT are the "processes" that are either a) intentionally built into the TT training/practice, which would mean they are a cult, b) unawarely built into the TT training/practice because they are familiar from other groups, some of them cults or c)used by many of the local leaders in the TT's because they are familiar with them from other groups, some of them cults. (My guess is that it's a combination of b) and c). However, I do believe that these processes are similar to some used by cults to open people up emotionally and make them vulnerable to "undue influence." To my mind, this is really not ok. It's certainly not ok for me as an ex-member, but I also question whether it is ok for anyone, since there will certainly be some people hanging around TT's to take advantage of this vulnerability, particularly if there are crises (resulting from peak oil/climate change) that also make people vulnerable emotionally through the disruption of social networks and communities (the frantic atmosphere you mention from your experience comes to mind).
People in these groups are alarmed. To my mind, we have every reason to be alarmed. For instance, lots of people are saying that "we are running out of the easy to extract energy sources" including President Obama, and actually presidents going back at least to Carter. Obama said this recently in explaining why deepwater drilling made sense in reference to the Gulf of Mexico disaster that is ongoing right now. It's not just a crazy idea. Our way of life is going to change dramatically. Unfortunately, this is when cults step in. People who have not had sufficient cult exit counseling/processing, are likely to step in with cultlike groups (but not intending to be cults). These may become cults, however.
It has been helpful for me to think about this here, really, to clarify it for myself, and I'm hoping that others will benefit from it, too. I may or may not be seeing this group clearly. This is just based on my experience with one group in one town. If I notice anything alarming, I'll be sure to post it. To be fair, if I notice that the group seems to be doing constructive things, I'll post that as well.
I'm not just writing this to tell you my views about medicine, but rather to point to what I think may be one problem here. The "alternatives" group seem to be filled with many people who are averse to critical thinking and accept even the silliest theories and often get bamboozled by flim flam artists. The "mainstream" group has been too heavily indoctrinated by simplistic views, sound bites, really. They've been taught to mistrust alternatives, and are mainly comfortable with "business as usual." In the future (assuming peak oil and climate change as givens), we will badly need alternative ways of doing things. But we also need the expertise of the people who have dealt with various areas (EMT's, doctors, engineers), as you point out.
The alternative money idea is ok with me, though. If there is an economic collapse that accompanies other breakdowns, we will need to be able to do business. This could occur through runaway inflation, as it has in some other countries, including the Soviet Union as it was collapsing. While I could barter a chicken for some medical help, it would be better to have a way to do this through money. I don't think that the alternative is meant to replace the conventional money system outside of a crisis, but rather be a way to deal with local businesses. In the short term, it also helps strengthen local businesses. I've tried to shop locally when possible for at least the last 5 years, to strengthen my local community, anyway, so I think it would be in support of that. But also, if the monetary system collapsed, (like a run on the banks), people would still be able to do some business locally if such a system were in place. I may or may not like various "content" features of the TT's.
What I really objected to in TT are the "processes" that are either a) intentionally built into the TT training/practice, which would mean they are a cult, b) unawarely built into the TT training/practice because they are familiar from other groups, some of them cults or c)used by many of the local leaders in the TT's because they are familiar with them from other groups, some of them cults. (My guess is that it's a combination of b) and c). However, I do believe that these processes are similar to some used by cults to open people up emotionally and make them vulnerable to "undue influence." To my mind, this is really not ok. It's certainly not ok for me as an ex-member, but I also question whether it is ok for anyone, since there will certainly be some people hanging around TT's to take advantage of this vulnerability, particularly if there are crises (resulting from peak oil/climate change) that also make people vulnerable emotionally through the disruption of social networks and communities (the frantic atmosphere you mention from your experience comes to mind).
People in these groups are alarmed. To my mind, we have every reason to be alarmed. For instance, lots of people are saying that "we are running out of the easy to extract energy sources" including President Obama, and actually presidents going back at least to Carter. Obama said this recently in explaining why deepwater drilling made sense in reference to the Gulf of Mexico disaster that is ongoing right now. It's not just a crazy idea. Our way of life is going to change dramatically. Unfortunately, this is when cults step in. People who have not had sufficient cult exit counseling/processing, are likely to step in with cultlike groups (but not intending to be cults). These may become cults, however.
It has been helpful for me to think about this here, really, to clarify it for myself, and I'm hoping that others will benefit from it, too. I may or may not be seeing this group clearly. This is just based on my experience with one group in one town. If I notice anything alarming, I'll be sure to post it. To be fair, if I notice that the group seems to be doing constructive things, I'll post that as well.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
margarets
()
Date: June 23, 2010 10:19PM
"Because I was envisioning something along the lines of emergency response/civil defense, I expected to see representatives from Red Cross, FEMA, EMTS, fire departments, local government officials, law enforcement, community leaders, that sort of thing, as well as concerned citizens like myself. These "authorities" were conspicuously absent--why? One would think these would be precisely the people to have on board, as they are the ones that have influence. Instead, I won't say that Transition is avoiding these people, but it doesn't seem like Transition is going out of its way to embrace them. It is almost as if they wish to set up a commune or even an alternative government instead of working with the duly elected one we already have."
Couple things:
1) The whole point of transitioning away from oil is so that it's not a shock or an emergency, there is no collapse of the social order and so on. The transition would happen over a period of 30-50 years (I thought up that figure, it's not from TT or any other group). In that scenario, emergency response agencies etc aren't necessary.
2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative.
3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions.
4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models.
"The use of local currency especially bothers me. What is the point?"
In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things.
"If society really is about to collapse due to all the problems they state are happening, then it is all the more important that we work within the structures that have already been set up and which have stood the test of time, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and go back to a fantasy past."
Just because a structure has been set up, doesn't mean it's working. That same structure is part of what got us into the mess we're in now. What is it, like, day 65 or something of the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? That situation alone shows just how badly the structures are failing. So, yeah, we really do need to come up with some new ideas. I don't think Transition Towns is claiming in any way to be the only initiative along these lines or even suggesting that other initiatives are pointless. As I've said in earlier posts, TT isn't doing anything new. And nothing I've seen suggests they want to turn back the clock. It's more about using good ideas and practices of the past, mixing them with new ones, and moving forward.
"We need to find ways to preserve what we do have, otherwise we will sink into another Dark Age. It took centuries for Europe to regain what had been lost when the Roman Empire collapsed. We have the benefit of knowing what such a collapse would mean in overall standard of living. They did not. We need to be concerned with far more than just food production. What about medicine, science, technology, engineering? Manufacturing? Transportation?"
Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. Oh, and the collapse of the Roman Empire wasn't an altogether bad thing.. it was an empire after all... enslaving people and using up resources right and left. I'm sure there were people who were happy to see it go.
The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult.
Couple things:
1) The whole point of transitioning away from oil is so that it's not a shock or an emergency, there is no collapse of the social order and so on. The transition would happen over a period of 30-50 years (I thought up that figure, it's not from TT or any other group). In that scenario, emergency response agencies etc aren't necessary.
2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative.
3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions.
4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models.
"The use of local currency especially bothers me. What is the point?"
In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things.
"If society really is about to collapse due to all the problems they state are happening, then it is all the more important that we work within the structures that have already been set up and which have stood the test of time, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and go back to a fantasy past."
Just because a structure has been set up, doesn't mean it's working. That same structure is part of what got us into the mess we're in now. What is it, like, day 65 or something of the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? That situation alone shows just how badly the structures are failing. So, yeah, we really do need to come up with some new ideas. I don't think Transition Towns is claiming in any way to be the only initiative along these lines or even suggesting that other initiatives are pointless. As I've said in earlier posts, TT isn't doing anything new. And nothing I've seen suggests they want to turn back the clock. It's more about using good ideas and practices of the past, mixing them with new ones, and moving forward.
"We need to find ways to preserve what we do have, otherwise we will sink into another Dark Age. It took centuries for Europe to regain what had been lost when the Roman Empire collapsed. We have the benefit of knowing what such a collapse would mean in overall standard of living. They did not. We need to be concerned with far more than just food production. What about medicine, science, technology, engineering? Manufacturing? Transportation?"
Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. Oh, and the collapse of the Roman Empire wasn't an altogether bad thing.. it was an empire after all... enslaving people and using up resources right and left. I'm sure there were people who were happy to see it go.
The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: June 23, 2010 11:37PM
"1) The whole point of transitioning away from oil is so that it's not a shock or an emergency, there is no collapse of the social order and so on. The transition would happen over a period of 30-50 years (I thought up that figure, it's not from TT or any other group). In that scenario, emergency response agencies etc aren't necessary."
-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan. Do you agree with that timeframe?
"2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative."
-The Red Cross? The Fire Department? Sorry, but where I live we have a good fire department. The reason not to involve them is that they are smart enough to call bullshit on Transition Towns and would laugh at "whoosh circles" and "disaster planning experts" with masters degrees in expressive arts therapy.
"3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions."
-A book by an anarchist. Are you an anarchist, Margaret? Is that part of the Transition Town agenda? Funny, as some of the Transers where I live have hooked up with the local (violent) anarchist movement. In reality, responses to disaster vary. For example, the people who shot at Katrina aid workers or looters in Haiti. (Solnit defends looting, by the way, for those of you who don't know of this book)
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-That's interesting, I thought Transers were advocating "working with local governments". Sounds like you don't agree with them?
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
-How do you protect your local currency from outside speculators? Didn't work so well for the Lewes pound, apparently.
"Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. "
-Are you kidding me? Folks like Heinberg, ASPO, etc. are predicting the entire collapse of civilization with the next decade or so! That sounds pretty "alarmist" to me.
"The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult."
-Nope, but we have watched the leader and founder of this group come on this board and LIE about his connections to the Waldorf/Steiner cult and the Triodos Bank. So, while TT may not be a cult yet, it certainly appears close to a well-known cult and its leader has tried to obscure his connections to this group.
-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan. Do you agree with that timeframe?
"2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative."
-The Red Cross? The Fire Department? Sorry, but where I live we have a good fire department. The reason not to involve them is that they are smart enough to call bullshit on Transition Towns and would laugh at "whoosh circles" and "disaster planning experts" with masters degrees in expressive arts therapy.
"3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions."
-A book by an anarchist. Are you an anarchist, Margaret? Is that part of the Transition Town agenda? Funny, as some of the Transers where I live have hooked up with the local (violent) anarchist movement. In reality, responses to disaster vary. For example, the people who shot at Katrina aid workers or looters in Haiti. (Solnit defends looting, by the way, for those of you who don't know of this book)
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-That's interesting, I thought Transers were advocating "working with local governments". Sounds like you don't agree with them?
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
-How do you protect your local currency from outside speculators? Didn't work so well for the Lewes pound, apparently.
"Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. "
-Are you kidding me? Folks like Heinberg, ASPO, etc. are predicting the entire collapse of civilization with the next decade or so! That sounds pretty "alarmist" to me.
"The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult."
-Nope, but we have watched the leader and founder of this group come on this board and LIE about his connections to the Waldorf/Steiner cult and the Triodos Bank. So, while TT may not be a cult yet, it certainly appears close to a well-known cult and its leader has tried to obscure his connections to this group.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
margarets
()
Date: June 24, 2010 12:20AM
"1) The whole point of transitioning away from oil is so that it's not a shock or an emergency, there is no collapse of the social order and so on. The transition would happen over a period of 30-50 years (I thought up that figure, it's not from TT or any other group). In that scenario, emergency response agencies etc aren't necessary."
-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan. Do you agree with that timeframe?
As I have said before on this thread, TT and the Peak Oil people are not the only groups, not the first groups, concerned about the issue of oil dependency, diminishing supplies of oil, etc. Other groups are less concerned about setting a date, they just want to move towards using less oil and thereby reducing the ill effects of using oil, like pollution.
"2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative."
-The Red Cross? The Fire Department? Sorry, but where I live we have a good fire department. The reason not to involve them is that they are smart enough to call bullshit on Transition Towns and would laugh at "whoosh circles" and "disaster planning experts" with masters degrees in expressive arts therapy.
Actually the Red Cross has been heavily criticized for some of its disaster response efforts. Everybody knows how well FEMA handled the Katrina crisis. And so on.
"3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions."
-A book by an anarchist. Are you an anarchist, Margaret? Is that part of the Transition Town agenda? Funny, as some of the Transers where I live have hooked up with the local (violent) anarchist movement. In reality, responses to disaster vary. For example, the people who shot at Katrina aid workers or looters in Haiti. (Solnit defends looting, by the way, for those of you who don't know of this book)
One person's anarchist is another person's visionary. The American revolutionaries were seen as anarchists by some. Isn't democracy about the free exchange of ideas? Can't one of those ideas be "hey, maybe we don't really need government"? If a person holds one idea idea that you (general) don't agree with, does that mean all of their ideas are bad? And Solnit doesn't defend looting - that is a misreading. It's not "looting" when you take supplies for basic survival and health that otherwise you would not have.
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-That's interesting, I thought Transers were advocating "working with local governments". Sounds like you don't agree with them?
I was responding to the earlier post. Our current system of government has flaws - surely you agree with that. So maybe a group decides to limit their involvement with government. What's the problem with that? If we require govt approval for every new community initiative... it's not a democracy anymore.
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
-How do you protect your local currency from outside speculators? Didn't work so well for the Lewes pound, apparently.
Again, I was responding to the earlier post, not writing a dissertation on the merits of local currency. (I did write "in a nutshell".) Who cares about Lewes pound? Because one attempt had some problems, the whole idea is rubbish? Some couples divorce, should we eliminate marriage?
"Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. "
-Are you kidding me? Folks like Heinberg, ASPO, etc. are predicting the entire collapse of civilization with the next decade or so! That sounds pretty "alarmist" to me.
Again, Heinberg, ASPO et al do not represent the entire movement to reduce oil dependency. It's not one movement anyway, it's all kinds of movements of varying sizes. We are all of us free to ingore Heinberg et al. Just like not everybody built a bomb shelter during the Cold War.
"The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult."
-Nope, but we have watched the leader and founder of this group come on this board and LIE about his connections to the Waldorf/Steiner cult and the Triodos Bank. So, while TT may not be a cult yet, it certainly appears close to a well-known cult and its leader has tried to obscure his connections to this group.
Sorry, what? Where is the proof of the lie? What is his connection, exactly? How strong is it? Where is the line being drawn? Everyone is at least tenuously connected to something questionable, it's part of living in an unjust world. But is everyone who eats chocolate an advocate for slavery? Of course not.
-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan. Do you agree with that timeframe?
As I have said before on this thread, TT and the Peak Oil people are not the only groups, not the first groups, concerned about the issue of oil dependency, diminishing supplies of oil, etc. Other groups are less concerned about setting a date, they just want to move towards using less oil and thereby reducing the ill effects of using oil, like pollution.
"2) Some of the agencies you mentioned have a really bad track record. That's one reason not to involve them in a new initiative."
-The Red Cross? The Fire Department? Sorry, but where I live we have a good fire department. The reason not to involve them is that they are smart enough to call bullshit on Transition Towns and would laugh at "whoosh circles" and "disaster planning experts" with masters degrees in expressive arts therapy.
Actually the Red Cross has been heavily criticized for some of its disaster response efforts. Everybody knows how well FEMA handled the Katrina crisis. And so on.
"3) The book "A Paradise Built in Hell" by Rebecca Solnit discusses in depth a number of disaster scenarios and how the grassroots, impromptu community-level response differed from the offical government, aid-agency ones. There is good evidence that people do better with their own solutions."
-A book by an anarchist. Are you an anarchist, Margaret? Is that part of the Transition Town agenda? Funny, as some of the Transers where I live have hooked up with the local (violent) anarchist movement. In reality, responses to disaster vary. For example, the people who shot at Katrina aid workers or looters in Haiti. (Solnit defends looting, by the way, for those of you who don't know of this book)
One person's anarchist is another person's visionary. The American revolutionaries were seen as anarchists by some. Isn't democracy about the free exchange of ideas? Can't one of those ideas be "hey, maybe we don't really need government"? If a person holds one idea idea that you (general) don't agree with, does that mean all of their ideas are bad? And Solnit doesn't defend looting - that is a misreading. It's not "looting" when you take supplies for basic survival and health that otherwise you would not have.
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-That's interesting, I thought Transers were advocating "working with local governments". Sounds like you don't agree with them?
I was responding to the earlier post. Our current system of government has flaws - surely you agree with that. So maybe a group decides to limit their involvement with government. What's the problem with that? If we require govt approval for every new community initiative... it's not a democracy anymore.
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
-How do you protect your local currency from outside speculators? Didn't work so well for the Lewes pound, apparently.
Again, I was responding to the earlier post, not writing a dissertation on the merits of local currency. (I did write "in a nutshell".) Who cares about Lewes pound? Because one attempt had some problems, the whole idea is rubbish? Some couples divorce, should we eliminate marriage?
"Again, TT and groups like it are not advocating a wholesale return to some earlier time. The point of transitioning is to avoid a collapse. Comparing peak oil to the collapse of the Roman Empire (which took a few centuries anyway, it wasn't an overnight thing) seems more alarmist that one TT is doing. "
-Are you kidding me? Folks like Heinberg, ASPO, etc. are predicting the entire collapse of civilization with the next decade or so! That sounds pretty "alarmist" to me.
Again, Heinberg, ASPO et al do not represent the entire movement to reduce oil dependency. It's not one movement anyway, it's all kinds of movements of varying sizes. We are all of us free to ingore Heinberg et al. Just like not everybody built a bomb shelter during the Cold War.
"The TT groups you've been to seem loony, disorganized, flaky, ill-conceived. Fair enough, they might well be. But that's not the same thing as being a cult. No one on this thread has presented evidence that TT is engaged in any activities that fit the definition of a cult."
-Nope, but we have watched the leader and founder of this group come on this board and LIE about his connections to the Waldorf/Steiner cult and the Triodos Bank. So, while TT may not be a cult yet, it certainly appears close to a well-known cult and its leader has tried to obscure his connections to this group.
Sorry, what? Where is the proof of the lie? What is his connection, exactly? How strong is it? Where is the line being drawn? Everyone is at least tenuously connected to something questionable, it's part of living in an unjust world. But is everyone who eats chocolate an advocate for slavery? Of course not.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 24, 2010 01:01AM
Biodynamics and Permaculture have different premises and different goals.
If you want to do permaculture, as part of TT or something else, take care to run Google searches in which biodynamics is excluded.
To get citations concerning JUST permaculture, I had to run a google advanced search in which I put biodynamics into the exclude slot.
If biodynamics is not excluded from a google search on permaculture, many citations will come up in which the casual reader will be easily led to assume the two are the same.
They actually originate from quite different persons Bill Mollison and Rudolf Steiner.
Biodynamics has a religious belief system behind its creation, though many may practice some or part of it, not having been told this and be quite unaware of it.
Or the vaguely inspirational nature of the scene in which Biodynamics is taught and often slushed together with permaculture may be soothing.
[www.google.com]
Permaculture is often mentioned in T-Town. Here is an article on its history.
Here is an article on the history of Permaculture. Note that nothing is said about astrology, cycles of the moon
[www.permacultureactivist.net]
By contrast, unlike the permaculture stance which attributs intrinsic worth to every livihg thing, Rudolf Steiner made some worrisome distinctions between nations and their allegedy different karmic destinies. Steiner, an Austrian was convinced that Central Europe occuppied a priviliged place in the spiritual evolution of Europe.
Austria had lived through a quite different version of that same myth--that its ruling family, the Habsburg Holy Roman Emperors, embodied a special destiny for the redemption of Europe. Steiner, born in the 19th century, tried to take a medieval notion of destiny and tranlated into it into something that tried to reconcile modernity with much earlier belief systems which were under stress and becoming outmoded. Steiner tried to extend this sense of mastery to everything--from the stars down to how to bring redemption to the soil via biodynamic methods which he created. He was trying to bring a sense of coherance to a world under stress.
But..this agenda is very different from permaculture which Steiner would have written off as materialistic.
Here are some of Steiners notions that, unlike in permaculture, some peoples or nations have better karma than others.
There is a highly readable Indian Anthroposophical website that supplies information on Biodynamic farming methods. Since discussions in America and the UK often mush or elide permaculture and biodynamics into a very confusing muddle, its worth while to read this just to observe some differences.
One commenter on a website I did not cite said, dont get lost in terminology.
Well, clarifying terms is important in clear communication.
[www.biodynamics.in]
Biodynamics and Homeopathy
[www.biodynamics.in]
Here for starters is how biodynamic farmers are advised to time planting cycles.
The preparations are
(BD500 - Cow Horn Manure
BD501 - Cow Horn Silica
BD502 - Yarrow
BD503 - Chamomile
BD504 - Stinging Nettle
BD505 - Himalayan Oak Bark
BD506 - Dandelion
BD507 - Valerian
BD508 - Casurina Tea
)
[www.biodynamics.in]
From the Steiner lecture quoted above
This from another permaculture website
Corboy...I fail to see how one can come together as citizens if any group believes itself to have superior karma by occupying a priviliged place in by knowing the use of gardening alchemy and cycles of the moon to bring spiritual energies into matter and more rapidly usher in the arrival of a redemptive cosmic force and that those who dont know how to do this are considered inferior in this grand scheme of things--something not even mentioned in histories of permaculture obtained by excluding biodynamics from a Google search.
Again, it appears to me that howevermuch others may diasgree, permaculture and biodynamics do start from quite different premisies and have quite different goals.
If you want to do permaculture, as part of TT or something else, take care to run Google searches in which biodynamics is excluded.
To get citations concerning JUST permaculture, I had to run a google advanced search in which I put biodynamics into the exclude slot.
If biodynamics is not excluded from a google search on permaculture, many citations will come up in which the casual reader will be easily led to assume the two are the same.
They actually originate from quite different persons Bill Mollison and Rudolf Steiner.
Biodynamics has a religious belief system behind its creation, though many may practice some or part of it, not having been told this and be quite unaware of it.
Or the vaguely inspirational nature of the scene in which Biodynamics is taught and often slushed together with permaculture may be soothing.
[www.google.com]
Permaculture is often mentioned in T-Town. Here is an article on its history.
Here is an article on the history of Permaculture. Note that nothing is said about astrology, cycles of the moon
Quote
1. Care of the Earth ...includes all living and non-living things– plants, animals, land, water and air
2. Care of People ...promotes self-reliance and community responsibility– access to resources necessary for existence
3. Setting Limits to Population & Consumption ...gives away surplus– contribution of surplus time, labor, money, information, and energy to achieve the aims of earth and people care.
Permaculture also acknowledges a basic life ethic, which recognizes the intrinsic worth of every living thing. A tree has value in itself, even if it presents no commercial value to humans. That the tree is alive and functioning is worthwhile. It is doing its part in nature: recycling litter, producing oxygen, sequestering carbon dioxide, sheltering animals, building soils, and so on.
[www.permacultureactivist.net]
By contrast, unlike the permaculture stance which attributs intrinsic worth to every livihg thing, Rudolf Steiner made some worrisome distinctions between nations and their allegedy different karmic destinies. Steiner, an Austrian was convinced that Central Europe occuppied a priviliged place in the spiritual evolution of Europe.
Austria had lived through a quite different version of that same myth--that its ruling family, the Habsburg Holy Roman Emperors, embodied a special destiny for the redemption of Europe. Steiner, born in the 19th century, tried to take a medieval notion of destiny and tranlated into it into something that tried to reconcile modernity with much earlier belief systems which were under stress and becoming outmoded. Steiner tried to extend this sense of mastery to everything--from the stars down to how to bring redemption to the soil via biodynamic methods which he created. He was trying to bring a sense of coherance to a world under stress.
But..this agenda is very different from permaculture which Steiner would have written off as materialistic.
Here are some of Steiners notions that, unlike in permaculture, some peoples or nations have better karma than others.
Quote
Let us, for instance, compare a Frenchman with a Russian. It is a Frenchman's particular trait that he is especially persistent in holding onto, and dwelling in, what the collective soul of his people carries into his physical body and ether body during his life between birth and death. This can be seen in his definitive idea — not as an individual but as a Frenchman — of what it is to be French. Above all, he stresses the importance of being French and what that means to him. But this notion held by Frenchmen or by anyone else from a Romance culture about their nationality affects the ether body by clearly imprinting the idea of nationality on it. A few days after the Frenchman has passed through the gate of death he loses his ether body; it is then a closed entity that has a prolonged existence in the etheric world. The ether body is unable to dissolve for a long time because it is impregnated with, and held together by, the Frenchman's idea of nationality. Thus, if we look to the West we see the field of death filled with firmly defined ether bodies.
Now, if we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize his peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death, carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of time. That is the difference between the West and the East. When the ether bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend to maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls “Gloire” is impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for a long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been infected by materialistic thinking.
Quote
in Central Europe the close association of the “I” with the Christ principle had put a stamp on the entire development of the area, to the effect that even the linguistic spirit of a people took up this association and equated “I” (Ich) and “CH” (Christ): I-CH conjoined became “Ich.” In pronouncing “Ich” in Central Europe one utters the name of Jesus Christ. That is how close the “I” wants to be to the Christ, longing for the most intimate closeness with Him. This living together, as one, with the spiritual world, which we in Central Europe must strive to attain in all intellectual fields, is not known in the West or in the East. Therefore, something in the twentieth century is necessary so that the Christ principle can gradually spread over the entire European continent.
Quote
The alliance between France and Russia (World War I) can be blamed on the seductive powers of Ahriman or, if you will, on the ahrimanic element, the twenty billion francs that France gave to Russia.
'This alliance is the physical expression of a struggle raging between French and Russian souls, a struggle that has an impact on Central Europe as it strives in its innermost soul for an encounter with the Christ. It is the karma of Europe that we in Central Europe must experience in an especially tragic way what the West and East must settle between themselves
There is a highly readable Indian Anthroposophical website that supplies information on Biodynamic farming methods. Since discussions in America and the UK often mush or elide permaculture and biodynamics into a very confusing muddle, its worth while to read this just to observe some differences.
One commenter on a website I did not cite said, dont get lost in terminology.
Well, clarifying terms is important in clear communication.
[www.biodynamics.in]
Quote
The Preparations
The Biodynamic preparations, when applied to the soil in the various ways – through the stirred cow horn dung BD500, and the preparations BD502-507 which are used in composts, liquid manures or cow pat pit (CPP) – on one level actually work through the soil micro life and encourage the development of mycorrhizal fungi hyphae and the rhizobia as well as other micro and macaro soil organisms. They thus work to enliven the soil structure and make the plant nutrients more available. Again to quote Rudolf Steiner, “The plants then will be able to use not only what is in their own field, but what is in the soil of a nearby meadow if they happen to need it or of what is in the soil in the neighbouring forest.” The forces that are in the preparations work through the microbial life in the soil or the healthy nature of the soil. Cosmic influences come into the soil through healthy living soil.
Actually the preparations make the organic part of the soil active and living. The biodynamic farmer can actually see the changes in the structure of his soil and also most importantly the health and quality of his crops.
The enlivening of the soil through the increase of the living organisms therein, is the most important aspect of the biodynamic system of agriculture. Actually it is the preparations which make organic farming work.
We can now come to the thought that there is a spiritual impulse or connection, working out there between the soil, plant and the cosmos. The preparations when used on the land, can be seen as a bridge between the life of the soil and the wholesome growth of all plants. Rudolf Steiner talks about nature spirits or elemental beings which are also a bridge between the world of spirit and the world of plant and the world of animals. Thus, it is great if the farmer can develop a connection with his plants and his animals with enthusiasm for their well-being.
Rudolf Steiner calls it the etheric formative force, where Spirit is working out of Matter.
Biodynamics and Homeopathy
[www.biodynamics.in]
Here for starters is how biodynamic farmers are advised to time planting cycles.
The preparations are
(BD500 - Cow Horn Manure
BD501 - Cow Horn Silica
BD502 - Yarrow
BD503 - Chamomile
BD504 - Stinging Nettle
BD505 - Himalayan Oak Bark
BD506 - Dandelion
BD507 - Valerian
BD508 - Casurina Tea
)
[www.biodynamics.in]
Quote
BD 500 Application Harvesting
BD 501 Application Liquid Manure Application
Compost Making Peppering
Compost Spreading Plant Potatoes
Cultivation & Soil Preparation Pruning
Fungus Control Seed Sowing
Transplanting Seedlings, Container Grown Plants, Trees & Shrubs
BD 500 Application
During an Descending Moon Period
in the afternoon/evening (sunset)
at the beginning of the plant's growth
and just before harvest
BD 501 Application
During an Ascending Moon Period
in the morning (sunrise)
at the beginning of the plant's growth
and just before harvest
ALSO
on Moon opposite Saturn day
in the morning (sunrise)
to strengthen against fungus & improve quality
Seed Sowing
On Moon opposite Saturn day
48 hours before Full Moon
during an Ascending Moon Period
AVOID NODE, APOGEE, PERIGEE & NEW MOON
for the particular constellation effect:
Root Plant -- Earth constellation day
Capricorn/Makara
Taurus/Vrishaba
Leafy Plant -- Water constellation day
Pisces/Mina
Flowering Plant -- Air/Light constellation day
Gemini/Mithuna
Aquarius/Kumbha
Fruit or Seed Plant -- Fire/Warmth constellation day
Sagittarius/Dhanush
Aries/Mesha
Compost Making
Best during Descending Moon period
Compost Spreading
During Descending Moon period
in cool weather
depending on soil conditions
and crop requirements
Cultivation & Soil Preparation
Best during Descending Moon period
when weather and soil conditions permit
NOTE: Cultivation and working the soil when it is wet can cause structual damage
Transplanting Seedlings, Container Grown Plants, Trees and Shrubs
Best during Descending Moon period
at appropriate season
Harvesting
Best during Ascending Moon period, except for roots and potatoes,
which are best during Descending Moon Period
Fruit, green vegetables, hay and silage
keep better and maintain quality in storage
if harvested during an Air/Light Flower period:
Gemini/Mithuna or Aquarius/Kumbha
Grains and Seeds for saving
best when harvested during a Fire/Warmth seed period:
Sagittarius/Dhanush or Aries/Mesha
Roots and potatoes
best harvested in a Descending Moon period
when the Moon is in the Earth root sign Virgo/Kanya
AVOID Harvesting at Full Moon, Perigee and during a Water constellation leaf day, such as Pisces/Mina, since these are times of more water in the Earth, so the crops would hold too much water for satisfactory storage.
Liquid Manure Application
Best just before Full Moon
in the afternoon
several times during crop growth, as needed
Plant Potatoes
Best during Apogee
Fungus Control
During Full Moon and Perigee
Spray with BD 508 prior to & during these days
These are stress times, they bring watery influences to the Earth
which can lead to fungus attacks, esp. during warm weather.
ALSO
On Moon opposite Saturn
Spray with BD 501 in the early morning (sunrise)
which will strengthen the plant to resist fungus
Pruning
Best during Descending Moon period
Fruit trees & berry shrubs at appropriate season
on a Fire/Warmth day, if possible
Leo/Simha or Sagittarius/Dhanush
Flowering shrubs and roses at appropriate season
on an Air/Light day, if possible
Gemini/Mithuna or Libra/Tula
Peppering
At Full Moon, several times during the growing season
Best when Sun in following constellations for specific pests:
Sun in Aries/Mesha for larvae
Sun in Taurus/Vrishaba for hardshell insects
Sun in Gemini/Mithuna for flies
Sun in Cancer/Karkata for snails & slugs
From the Steiner lecture quoted above
Quote
"We can understand this clearly by realizing that for occult knowledge it is evident that the earth is not only what geologists describe. Geologists conceive the earth's components as being similar to the skeleton of man. Yet the spiritual also belongs to our earth whose aura has been permeated by Christ. During the day's twenty-four hours, this earth sleeps and is awake just as we are. We must familiarize ourselves with the fact that the state of wakefulness on earth occurs during the winter, and the state of sleep during the summer. The earth spirit is most awake in these twelve or thirteen days from Christmas to the Epiphany. In ancient ages when, as you know from the various presentations in my lecture series, human beings elevated themselves to a sort of dreamlike clairvoyance to reach a spiritual understanding of the world, in those ages the most favorable time for this process was summer. Thus, it is quite natural that whoever wants to elevate himself to spiritual heights by means of a more dreamlike clairvoyance will have an easier time of it during the summer, when the earth is asleep. Therefore, St. John's midsummer-day was in ancient ages the most propitious time to raise the soul to the spiritual level. The old way of spiritual interaction with the earth has been replaced by a more conscious elevation that can best be reached during the earth's wakefulness.
For this reason, legends inform us that unusually endowed people, who are particularly suited by their karmas, pass into an extraordinary state of consciousness that resembles sleep, but only on the surface. its inner quality is such that it can be inspired by those forces that elevate human beings to the domain we call the spirit world.
"
This from another permaculture website
Quote
The Permaculture Design System
Permaculture draws together the diverse ideas, skills and ways of living which need to be rediscovered and developed in order to empower the local communities to move from being dependant consumers to becoming responsible and independent productive citizens.
The Permaculture Design System
ETHICS
Permaculture is not just a system for efficient production of food. It has an ethical basis which underpins the fundamental objective of practicing Permaculture anywhere on the earth. There are three key ethics:
• Care For Earth
• Care For People
• Recycle or Redistribute Surplus
If these ethical objectives of are violated in our activities then we cannot define what we are doing as Permaculture.
Corboy...I fail to see how one can come together as citizens if any group believes itself to have superior karma by occupying a priviliged place in by knowing the use of gardening alchemy and cycles of the moon to bring spiritual energies into matter and more rapidly usher in the arrival of a redemptive cosmic force and that those who dont know how to do this are considered inferior in this grand scheme of things--something not even mentioned in histories of permaculture obtained by excluding biodynamics from a Google search.
Again, it appears to me that howevermuch others may diasgree, permaculture and biodynamics do start from quite different premisies and have quite different goals.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: June 24, 2010 01:39AM
OK, Margaret, let's do a rewind on this... (sorry, Rob, this will suck for you, but hey, Margaret requested it)
Rob's intro to the board:
"There are no links between Transition and the Steiner schools movement. There may be some people who are involved with Steiner schools who get involved with Transition and vice versa, but there is no Steiner thinking in the Transition approach. Zero. Nada. From the rather odd thread referred to at the start of this one where someone in Totnes said he lived in Totnes and there was also a Steiner school here, all of a sudden 2 + 2 = 7 and Transition is an Anthroposophical cult. We have a Conservative Club in Totnes too, and a Masonic Hall, 2 supermarkets and a swimming pool. Do we therefore share some idealogical ground with them too? Of course not..."
Rob has no connection to Steiner, Waldorf, of course....
"* In relation to my stating that there is no link to Steiner, you just posted a link to my website, presumably a reference, as was cited earlier in this thread, to the 'Head, Heart and Hands' wording. If that is a Steiner term as stated here, I had no idea, it came to mind while I was writing the book and should in no sense be taken as having any reference to Steiner at all "
Rob comes clean, "in the spirit of full disclosure" of course...
"Steiner. Graham suggested offline that this discussion be undertaken in the spirit of full disclosure. OK. I went to a Steiner school for 2 years, between the ages of 14 and 16. I have to say that for me it was a life-saving experience (my previous school I suffered dreadful bullying, and the Steiner school was the first one where I felt like a person rather than a number). Having said that, after two years there, I couldn't tell you anything more about Steiner or his philosophies than I could have before I went. The irony is that I learnt more about science there than I did in the Church of England School I was at before, and much less religious woo woo (as Graham puts it). In fact we were invited to discuss ideas and debate things such as religion far more than in previous schools where "that is how it is"."
Not to put words in Graham's mouth, but I suspect there was some "if you're not going to tell them, I will" going on behind the scenes. Graham is apparently experienced with Rob from previous online debates and such.
For some reason, the interview with Triodos Bank and Rob is no longer available online. Here is the link where it was from, Wayback Machine is currently not working, so all we have is the excerpts that I pulled when it was still available.
[www.triodos.co.uk]
"What role to sustainable banks like Triodos have to play?"
Rob: I think they have an enormous role to play. We need a banking system that’s responsive to wider movements of which the Transition Movement is just one part. In his book ‘Blessed Unrest’, Paul Hawken calls the environmental movement, ‘the biggest movement that’s ever existed in all history’. What this massive popular will needs to deliver change is institutions that are engaged and supportive. Triodos Bank has proved itself to be in tune with this growing movement. Transition groups and other environmental groups need to start building and putting in place infrastructure that’s
ready for a post-peak oil society, to take over from what’s there at the moment. We can’t do that without money and institutions like Triodos Bank – they’re an essential part of this process and crucial to making transition happen on the scale that’s really needed."
And what is Triodos Bank? Note: this is a mostly positive take on Triodos.
Luckily, these links still work...
[www.fiohnetwork.org]
"The Triodos Bank supports a very wide range of socially and environmentally positive projects. The bank does appear to be actively promoting the Bhuddhist faith and Steiner and Waldorf schools based on the (partly occult) ideas of Rudolf Steiner and this might reflect the spiritual beliefs of those managing the bank. Some potential investors may wish to find out a little about anthroposophy (Steiner's ideas) and Buddhism before they decide to use the bank. However, the Bank does also support the projects of other religious faiths."
And, yes, Triodos Bank is helping to fund Transition Town initiatives like this one...
[transitiontowns.org]
"So we have to find the money. We have until May 4th. We are working very hard at this and we’re confident. Triodos Bank is backing 80% of the bid price based on a sound business plan. Unity bank is backing local food co-operative Just Trade to the tune of 100K. We have pledges on our site of over 100K. We have five or six businesses keen to relocate to Harveys Yard. "
Rob's intro to the board:
"There are no links between Transition and the Steiner schools movement. There may be some people who are involved with Steiner schools who get involved with Transition and vice versa, but there is no Steiner thinking in the Transition approach. Zero. Nada. From the rather odd thread referred to at the start of this one where someone in Totnes said he lived in Totnes and there was also a Steiner school here, all of a sudden 2 + 2 = 7 and Transition is an Anthroposophical cult. We have a Conservative Club in Totnes too, and a Masonic Hall, 2 supermarkets and a swimming pool. Do we therefore share some idealogical ground with them too? Of course not..."
Rob has no connection to Steiner, Waldorf, of course....
"* In relation to my stating that there is no link to Steiner, you just posted a link to my website, presumably a reference, as was cited earlier in this thread, to the 'Head, Heart and Hands' wording. If that is a Steiner term as stated here, I had no idea, it came to mind while I was writing the book and should in no sense be taken as having any reference to Steiner at all "
Rob comes clean, "in the spirit of full disclosure" of course...
"Steiner. Graham suggested offline that this discussion be undertaken in the spirit of full disclosure. OK. I went to a Steiner school for 2 years, between the ages of 14 and 16. I have to say that for me it was a life-saving experience (my previous school I suffered dreadful bullying, and the Steiner school was the first one where I felt like a person rather than a number). Having said that, after two years there, I couldn't tell you anything more about Steiner or his philosophies than I could have before I went. The irony is that I learnt more about science there than I did in the Church of England School I was at before, and much less religious woo woo (as Graham puts it). In fact we were invited to discuss ideas and debate things such as religion far more than in previous schools where "that is how it is"."
Not to put words in Graham's mouth, but I suspect there was some "if you're not going to tell them, I will" going on behind the scenes. Graham is apparently experienced with Rob from previous online debates and such.
For some reason, the interview with Triodos Bank and Rob is no longer available online. Here is the link where it was from, Wayback Machine is currently not working, so all we have is the excerpts that I pulled when it was still available.
[www.triodos.co.uk]
"What role to sustainable banks like Triodos have to play?"
Rob: I think they have an enormous role to play. We need a banking system that’s responsive to wider movements of which the Transition Movement is just one part. In his book ‘Blessed Unrest’, Paul Hawken calls the environmental movement, ‘the biggest movement that’s ever existed in all history’. What this massive popular will needs to deliver change is institutions that are engaged and supportive. Triodos Bank has proved itself to be in tune with this growing movement. Transition groups and other environmental groups need to start building and putting in place infrastructure that’s
ready for a post-peak oil society, to take over from what’s there at the moment. We can’t do that without money and institutions like Triodos Bank – they’re an essential part of this process and crucial to making transition happen on the scale that’s really needed."
And what is Triodos Bank? Note: this is a mostly positive take on Triodos.
Luckily, these links still work...
[www.fiohnetwork.org]
"The Triodos Bank supports a very wide range of socially and environmentally positive projects. The bank does appear to be actively promoting the Bhuddhist faith and Steiner and Waldorf schools based on the (partly occult) ideas of Rudolf Steiner and this might reflect the spiritual beliefs of those managing the bank. Some potential investors may wish to find out a little about anthroposophy (Steiner's ideas) and Buddhism before they decide to use the bank. However, the Bank does also support the projects of other religious faiths."
And, yes, Triodos Bank is helping to fund Transition Town initiatives like this one...
[transitiontowns.org]
"So we have to find the money. We have until May 4th. We are working very hard at this and we’re confident. Triodos Bank is backing 80% of the bid price based on a sound business plan. Unity bank is backing local food co-operative Just Trade to the tune of 100K. We have pledges on our site of over 100K. We have five or six businesses keen to relocate to Harveys Yard. "
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: June 24, 2010 01:48AM
"As I have said before on this thread, TT and the Peak Oil people are not the only groups, not the first groups, concerned about the issue of oil dependency, diminishing supplies of oil, etc. Other groups are less concerned about setting a date, they just want to move towards using less oil and thereby reducing the ill effects of using oil, like pollution. "
-Yes, but this is a thread about Transition Towns, which you are defending, so I think it is relevant.
"Actually the Red Cross has been heavily criticized for some of its disaster response efforts. Everybody knows how well FEMA handled the Katrina crisis. And so on. "
-Criticized yes. But I don't see anybody calling for an end to the Red Cross or suggesting people don't work with them (other than utter loons). FEMA was a mess, but that was mainly due to poor management by a horrible administration. Disbanding or ignoring FEMA isn't going to make the situation improve. In other words, don't toss the baby out with the bath water.
"One person's anarchist is another person's visionary. The American revolutionaries were seen as anarchists by some. Isn't democracy about the free exchange of ideas? Can't one of those ideas be "hey, maybe we don't really need government"? If a person holds one idea idea that you (general) don't agree with, does that mean all of their ideas are bad? And Solnit doesn't defend looting - that is a misreading. It's not "looting" when you take supplies for basic survival and health that otherwise you would not have."
-No problem with you being an anarchist, just wanted to put that on the table so people know where you are coming from.
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-So you are opposed to democracy, or working through democratic structures? Are you proposing a government outside of the government? Clearly, democracy is flawed, but what are the alternatives you propose?
" Our current system of government has flaws - surely you agree with that. So maybe a group decides to limit their involvement with government. What's the problem with that? If we require govt approval for every new community initiative... it's not a democracy anymore."
-What community initiatives are you talking about? And, yes, sorry to inform you, but part of living in a democracy is abiding by the decisions that are voted on by the people and their reps. If you don't like those decisions, organize and vote the people out of power. It is done all the time in democracies all over the world. Or move to a place where there is no functional government to interfere with your desires... like Somalia.
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
"Again, Heinberg, ASPO et al do not represent the entire movement to reduce oil dependency. It's not one movement anyway, it's all kinds of movements of varying sizes. We are all of us free to ingore Heinberg et al. Just like not everybody built a bomb shelter during the Cold War."
-No, they aren't, and I agree with a movement to reduce oil dependency. However, TT is the movement at discussion in this thread. And they take their data from right-wing nazi mystics like Heinberg and oil drillers like the ASPO.
-Yes, but this is a thread about Transition Towns, which you are defending, so I think it is relevant.
"Actually the Red Cross has been heavily criticized for some of its disaster response efforts. Everybody knows how well FEMA handled the Katrina crisis. And so on. "
-Criticized yes. But I don't see anybody calling for an end to the Red Cross or suggesting people don't work with them (other than utter loons). FEMA was a mess, but that was mainly due to poor management by a horrible administration. Disbanding or ignoring FEMA isn't going to make the situation improve. In other words, don't toss the baby out with the bath water.
"One person's anarchist is another person's visionary. The American revolutionaries were seen as anarchists by some. Isn't democracy about the free exchange of ideas? Can't one of those ideas be "hey, maybe we don't really need government"? If a person holds one idea idea that you (general) don't agree with, does that mean all of their ideas are bad? And Solnit doesn't defend looting - that is a misreading. It's not "looting" when you take supplies for basic survival and health that otherwise you would not have."
-No problem with you being an anarchist, just wanted to put that on the table so people know where you are coming from.
"4) The "duly elected government" that we have now was at one time a revolutionary or "alternative" idea, but it's not the final word on how societies should organize themselves. It's got many flaws, so it's not hard to see why people would look for different models."
-So you are opposed to democracy, or working through democratic structures? Are you proposing a government outside of the government? Clearly, democracy is flawed, but what are the alternatives you propose?
" Our current system of government has flaws - surely you agree with that. So maybe a group decides to limit their involvement with government. What's the problem with that? If we require govt approval for every new community initiative... it's not a democracy anymore."
-What community initiatives are you talking about? And, yes, sorry to inform you, but part of living in a democracy is abiding by the decisions that are voted on by the people and their reps. If you don't like those decisions, organize and vote the people out of power. It is done all the time in democracies all over the world. Or move to a place where there is no functional government to interfere with your desires... like Somalia.
"In a nutshell, to free local communities from the influence of international currency rates, market fluctuations, big banks, maybe taxes too. The idea of using one national currency, or a regional currency like the euro, is just that - an idea. An idea that has been applied very rigorously to economic exchange, to be sure, but not the only way of doing things."
"Again, Heinberg, ASPO et al do not represent the entire movement to reduce oil dependency. It's not one movement anyway, it's all kinds of movements of varying sizes. We are all of us free to ingore Heinberg et al. Just like not everybody built a bomb shelter during the Cold War."
-No, they aren't, and I agree with a movement to reduce oil dependency. However, TT is the movement at discussion in this thread. And they take their data from right-wing nazi mystics like Heinberg and oil drillers like the ASPO.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Graham S
()
Date: June 24, 2010 02:00AM
Shakti:
"-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan."
In case you hadnt noticed, the shit has already hit the fan- in the form of an almighty financial collapse, something predicted for years by many inside (and of course outside) the PO movement.
How much the financial collapse is related to PO or imminent resource depletion is of course an important debate, but for our purposes here it is important to acknowledge that Campbell, for example, has always connected the two:
"The Collapse"
I was invited to help...make a TV programme which the BC broadcast on Dec. 8th 2004. It was a fictional documentary covering the consequences of an explosion at the Ras Tanura oil export terminal in Saudi Arabia. It depicted the fate of a new swinging bank that had specialized in derivatives, and the role of a particular trader who had inserted a contract escape clause triggered if oil prices passed $50 a barrel. When prices actually passed this level while the film was being made, the producers had to lift the threshold to $100 a barrel.In the film, the bank fails, causing a meltdown of the world financial markets, accompanied by scenes of riots in the streets as a Second Great Depression falls upon the world. It may prove to have been prophetic.
...Taking a longer view, it is easy to see why a general financial collapse is inevitable. In short, to explain it yet again, the banks have been lending money in excess of what they had on deposit...
Colin Campbell "Oil Crisis" 2005
As you will find in plenty of scientific literature, humanity is facing multiple crisis, many of them environmental, with climate change being perhaps the most threatening, each one tending to amplify the others in feedbacks. See for example Professor Bill Rees "Is Humanity Sustainable?"
[www.ecoshock.org]
or even the recent Reith lectures on radio4:
[www.bbc.co.uk]
Margarets is obviously correct- there is no need to go anywhere near Transition or PO to find reasoned arguments for potential collapse; and Tainters' definition of collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter) is to do with diminishing complexity, ie there is no point in investing in the Big national/international structures, they will be the first to go.
But to my mind there is a clear new Age bias in Transition. See for example Rob's first draft of Transition as a Pattern Language:
[transitionculture.org]
in which you will see him include under the pattern "Critical Thinking" that we should "integrate insights from Holistic Science". As good an example of a contradiction in terms as you could hope to find! As far as I can ascertain, "Holistic Science", eg as taught at Shumacher, has a big influence from Goethe (closely connected to Steiner) and basically involves including subjective feelings and opinions as equally valid with science.
Corboy:
Brillaint post, I totally agree, and it is this connection with BD and anthroposophy of which we should be most concerned.
[zone5.org]
Shakti:
"Not to put words in Graham's mouth, but I suspect there was some "if you're not going to tell them, I will" going on behind the scenes. Graham is apparently experienced with Rob from previous online debates and such."
I used to know Rob when he lived in West Cork; I took his job as Permaculture teacher in Kinsale when he left. I was more concerned about how it would look if someone else found out...
I still think it is too strong to say he lied, I dont see a conspiracy, just a lot of naivety. And yes, a degree of anti-science that is very worrying.
"...oil drillers like the ASPO."
It is not surprising that some of the first to write about PO were in the oil industry. They are after all in a position to know. TT does not only take their info from ASPO and Heinberg, but from a very wide range of sources. (see above).
Shakti your arguments tend towards the circular: you discredit PO by associating it with TT, and TT by association with PO.
"-But according to the Transers and Peakers, we "only have until 2015" until oil peaks and everything hits the fan."
In case you hadnt noticed, the shit has already hit the fan- in the form of an almighty financial collapse, something predicted for years by many inside (and of course outside) the PO movement.
How much the financial collapse is related to PO or imminent resource depletion is of course an important debate, but for our purposes here it is important to acknowledge that Campbell, for example, has always connected the two:
"The Collapse"
I was invited to help...make a TV programme which the BC broadcast on Dec. 8th 2004. It was a fictional documentary covering the consequences of an explosion at the Ras Tanura oil export terminal in Saudi Arabia. It depicted the fate of a new swinging bank that had specialized in derivatives, and the role of a particular trader who had inserted a contract escape clause triggered if oil prices passed $50 a barrel. When prices actually passed this level while the film was being made, the producers had to lift the threshold to $100 a barrel.In the film, the bank fails, causing a meltdown of the world financial markets, accompanied by scenes of riots in the streets as a Second Great Depression falls upon the world. It may prove to have been prophetic.
...Taking a longer view, it is easy to see why a general financial collapse is inevitable. In short, to explain it yet again, the banks have been lending money in excess of what they had on deposit...
Colin Campbell "Oil Crisis" 2005
As you will find in plenty of scientific literature, humanity is facing multiple crisis, many of them environmental, with climate change being perhaps the most threatening, each one tending to amplify the others in feedbacks. See for example Professor Bill Rees "Is Humanity Sustainable?"
[www.ecoshock.org]
or even the recent Reith lectures on radio4:
[www.bbc.co.uk]
Margarets is obviously correct- there is no need to go anywhere near Transition or PO to find reasoned arguments for potential collapse; and Tainters' definition of collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter) is to do with diminishing complexity, ie there is no point in investing in the Big national/international structures, they will be the first to go.
But to my mind there is a clear new Age bias in Transition. See for example Rob's first draft of Transition as a Pattern Language:
[transitionculture.org]
in which you will see him include under the pattern "Critical Thinking" that we should "integrate insights from Holistic Science". As good an example of a contradiction in terms as you could hope to find! As far as I can ascertain, "Holistic Science", eg as taught at Shumacher, has a big influence from Goethe (closely connected to Steiner) and basically involves including subjective feelings and opinions as equally valid with science.
Corboy:
Brillaint post, I totally agree, and it is this connection with BD and anthroposophy of which we should be most concerned.
[zone5.org]
Shakti:
"Not to put words in Graham's mouth, but I suspect there was some "if you're not going to tell them, I will" going on behind the scenes. Graham is apparently experienced with Rob from previous online debates and such."
I used to know Rob when he lived in West Cork; I took his job as Permaculture teacher in Kinsale when he left. I was more concerned about how it would look if someone else found out...
I still think it is too strong to say he lied, I dont see a conspiracy, just a lot of naivety. And yes, a degree of anti-science that is very worrying.
"...oil drillers like the ASPO."
It is not surprising that some of the first to write about PO were in the oil industry. They are after all in a position to know. TT does not only take their info from ASPO and Heinberg, but from a very wide range of sources. (see above).
Shakti your arguments tend towards the circular: you discredit PO by associating it with TT, and TT by association with PO.
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