There is no question James Ray deliberately went into the New Wage area, as that is where the money is these days, it has endless product ties-ins, is connected with people's core beliefs about religion, and is a new age culture where critical thinking is scorned and banned.

Soft targets.
[en.wikipedia.org] "A soft target can generally be overcome from any direction with typical ordnance... Soft target is also used in technology security circles to describe computers, networks, or entire domains with exploitable vulnerabilities."

Hard targets are other professional salespeople, people with training in influence, critical thinkers...they avoid the professionals like the plague, and stick to untrained civilian targets.

Quote
buffman
I find most of his stuff is ripped off from Tony Robbins, which is why I've been calling him "the living reincarnation of Tony Robbins," except with a New Age twist.

@Anticult

I don't want to derail the discussion nor take the heat off of James Ray and other abusive LGAT gurus by any means. We should do everything we can to warn others of the dangers of such programs and people.

I just wanted to slightly balance the discussion and say that there is moderate and basic self-help stuff. If it makes more sense, we could move that discussion to a different thread. I do think part of addressing coercive persuasion is to discuss what isn't coercive, and where and how to find such things.

I'd say not 100% but more like 95% of the coaching hysteria is crap, but there are some rare ones, and usually they charge reasonable amounts, clearly refer out instead of doing therapy, and don't have coaching contracts.

I also definitely think that the movie and book The Secret are Fundamentalist New Thought and extreme junk that justifies all sorts of abuses, especially selling more stuff.

But again, this is somewhat off-topic so I'll stop there.

Quote
The Anticult
Hi Buffman...

Just one point I want to make, these threads are generally dealing with the serious problems with this stuff, and not the moderate stuff or the basic self-help stuff, as that is covered elsewhere.

That being said, all of the most damaging material, represents itself as being harmless and helpful.

...

Again, free country, but basically 100% of all the advertised coaching hysteria is just easy money.

That book Conversations with Richard Bandler linked below, is something else. Please do NOT buy it, maybe your library has it, but be very careful.
The book is written by Owen Fitzpatrick, who is someone who is extremely skilled in these advanced techniques of persuasion, and has a ton of programs for sale.

James Arthur Ray does some of these techniques, but in a pretty crude way.
Byron Katie does many more of them, more elegantly.
But Owen Fitzpatrick is far far above any of them.

The only partial saving grace of this book, is they tell you some of what they are doing AS they are doing it, and before they do it. But they also don't tell you most of what they are doing, but hint at it, and of course promote their own NLP trainings/seminars.
They also seem to hint they are doing certain other things, when they are not, as part of confusion induction.

What is in this book is off the charts.
The book is laced with hypnotic language patterning, and everything else, top to bottom.
99.99% of the public really would have no idea of all of the different techniques that are artfully embedded in the text, quite seamlessly. They would take it as basic storytelling, or NLP content, when that is the smallest part of it. Its really about unconscious multilevel communication and conversational waking hypnotherapy.

On page 194, he actually lists some of the techniques he is actively using in the book on you. From nesting loops, advanced language patterns, twist and turn words to affect others perceptions, tenses, questions, and many other things. Its all there.

This is the cutting edge material. Anyone could take the same material, and just embed it in almost anything, and 99% of people would never notice it, even though it strongly effects them.
This book is re-engineering how you think about Richard Bandler and Owen Fitzpatrick, and NLP itself.
Owen Fitzpatrick even has a small section where he refers to how when people think others are manipulating them using advanced NLP tech, its just their own perceptions. He embeds that suggestion in a series of other suggestions.

People have no idea of what can be done to them without their conscious awareness, just with text, never mind all of the other aspects.

On page 227, there is yet another "story" of Richard Bandler either holding a gun or a knife to a guys throat. (he deliberately does not say which). There is all sorts of stuff like that, that seems to come out of the blue, but its all carefully designed.

The only real solution to this, is draconian. When you see all of these patterns being thrown around, its GAME OVER. No private sessions, and no money exchanging hands. Any seminar being conducted have to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb.
The 'stories' they tell that sound like typical mundane autobiographical comments, can be laced with material that can impact you.

Owen Fitzpatrick is one to keep a close eye on. Even though he throws a few shots at "gurus" there are many other warning signs in the way he is handling this material.
Even worse, he's extremely talented at it, and seems to be quite young.
These are the highly intelligent elite NLPers and post-NLP people who can do many things without anyone being aware of what they are doing.
The harsh reality is that these guys are going to be able to do almost anything they want for the foreseeable future, as the public/media has literally no clue about any of it.

And the lower guys on the food chain, like James Ray, will grab some of it, and insert it into their own material.



[/quote]
Richard Bandler has a new book called Conversations with Richard Bandler [www.amazon.com] (please do NOT buy it, maybe check it out from the library).
But this is a good example of some more advanced stuff.
Its multilevel communications, which sound like a conversation and story.
So there is "content" and exercises in the book. But that is merely the surface.

Its laced with all sorts of MULTILEVEL communications going on at the same time. The only saving grace of this material, is they do mention aspects of it, and Bandler has taught many of these methods out in the open too, not only embedded in text. The main audience are those familiar with the techniques.

Too bad the text at the front of the book is not online: the WARNING TO READERS, Warning to Ex-Spurts, and Warning to Everyone Else.

Its very instructive.
How much of it actually works is open to debate. But some of it does work, that is for certain.[/quote]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 08:18AM by The Anticult.

There are a zillion links out there.

Persuasion101
Sales and Persuasion By: Owen Fitzpatrick
The Essence of Leadership By: Stever Robbins
[www.persuasion101.com]

Another taste of even a supposed legit NLP persuader like Owen Fitzpatrick, and how that compares with guys like James Ray.

Owen Fitzpatrick says he met various Gurus in India, and discussed NLP processes with them. Now who knows if that's true, or some kind of Story. But there is truth to it.
All the big gurus spend a lot of time meeting with advanced persuaders from all over the world. There have been cases where NLP expert modelers were hired by various gurus to model the best persuaders of groups of people, and that information can be put into manuals, and can cost tens of thousands of dollars for the consulting contract.


Here's a "treatment" by the so-called legit NLP person Owen Fitzpatrick. He says he had a client who was a cutter, as in people who cut their arms.
He says the client came to a session with cut arms. So he grabbed something and cut his arms too, and said he would keep cutting his arms if the client kept cutting their arms. He says they stopped cutting their arms.

Now of course, there is no proof of any of this, its just a Story, it could be bullshit.
If its not bullshit, then it shocking these guys like Owen Fitzpatrick can get away with doing stuff like that, and putting it into print.
(they are all trying to copy the case study Teaching Tales of Dr. Milton Erickson)

But the arrogance that comes from using these techniques is something else. The power goes to their head. So its not long until you have a James Ray who thinks he can do anything.

"Large Group Awareness Training": A touchy label after the Sedona sweat-lodge deaths
11/03/2009 Tim Steller
[regulus2.azstarnet.com]

The news story above, is another reason the news media doesn't do many stories on this subject.
A reporter was looking for people to interview about the James Ray seminars, and LGAT seminars, and mentioned the Landmark Forum.
The next day he gets a phone call from Deborah Beroset from Landmark, and an email talking about how even saying that Landmark is part of LGAT history would...

"damage the reputation of the company".

An obvious not so veiled threat.
Deborah Beroset from Landmark is quoted as saying...

"I trust that once you’ve had the opportunity to examine the material I’ve sent and familiarize yourself with our company and programs, you will agree."

Notice Landmark even uses very pushy language (an embedded command) in their letters to reporters.... "YOU WILL AGREE".
Why don't they say, we'll send our PR media spin-doctoring package , and you can make up your own mind based on your research?
Because Landmark wants to make up the reporters mind for them, with the threat.... "damage the reputation of the company".

Landmark tries to tell reporters the bounds of permissable thought.
Not only that, they try to tell reporters the bounds of permissable questions to ask.

But Landmark was completely defeated after trying to shut entire forum systems down.

The Landmark Education Litigation Archive: [www.culteducation.com]
Landmark and the Internet Archive | Electronic Frontier Foundation [www.eff.org]

Landmark is trying to claim its not an LGAT seminar, when in fact Werner Erhard with EST and the Landmark Forum basically invented the LGAT seminar.
So Landmark is going to attack anyone now who suggests they are a LGAT seminar?

James Arthur Ray is literally the next generation of Werner Erhard.
James Ray copied/adapted many of the LGAT techniques that came directly from Werner Erhard, going back into the 1970's, and have been adapted ever since.
Using UNPAID workers, is direct from Werner Erhard. But now, they have updated it, to make people PAY to work for them.

James Ray was on his way to being the Werner Erhard of the 21st Century, until 4 people were publicized as dying at his seminars from July-Oct 2009.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 01:56AM by The Anticult.

And Deborah Beroset is not just a hired PR hack for Landmark Education, she is also a Landmark seminar leader herself.
"Deborah Beroset is a communications expert who has led hundreds of people in seminars with Landmark Education".

So an LGAT seminar leader persuader for Landmark, is trying to persuade people that Landmark is not an LGAT seminar.
A paradox wrapped in an enigma.

Just like the Wizard of Oz telling Dorothy to ignore that man behind the curtain.

There is no mafia, either.

And advanced covert group persuasion techniques do not exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 02:11AM by The Anticult.

Messages for the Dead [www.saltydroid.info]

A link to the voicemail messages left on Colleen Conaway's cell phone after she was deceased, by the staff of James Ray International.
They had her cell phone.

[forum.culteducation.com]

AFGrant Twitter: [twitter.com]
Today with James Ray: wallets, phone, id taken and we put on old clothes to wander San Diego as homeless. I witnessed a suicide attempt :(
8:22 PM Jul 25th from web

There was an interesting video experiment.
Its the 3rd link on the link below, called the "basketball video".
Give it a try, by reading the instructions, and pressing the link on this page called
"View the basketball video" [viscog.beckman.illinois.edu]



(after viewing)
This experiment has shown that when people's attention is focussed on one aspect of a situation, they can be completely unaware of other things happening right before their eyes.

Its the identical method used by stage magicians to direct your attention where they want it, and away from the trick using DELIBERATE DISTRACTION.

This is literally the identical technique used by various LGAT seminar leaders.
The "content" 99.9% of the people focus on and talk about, is usually merely to occupy and distract people's attention and conscious mind.
Meanwhile, the real things they are doing are there in plain sight, but only if you are aware of them.

Don't want to give the video experiment linked above away, but try it.
But once a person is aware of what is happening, it doesn't work.

LGAT leaders like James Ray, and more advanced persuaders like top NLPers, and Byron Katie, and the rest of them, use this method all the time.
They overwhelm the conscious attention with "content", while doing their real work in plain sight. For those unaware of the techniques being used, they literally have...

Inattentional blindness. [www.scholarpedia.org]
"Inattentional blindness is the failure to notice a fully-visible, but unexpected object because attention was engaged on another task, event, or object."

They literally don't consciously perceive that which is in plain sight.
This is why it can be so maddening to see those who are not trained and not aware of the techniques, not being able to see what is hidden in plain-sight.

And that is why LGAT seminar leaders try to keep everything secret, and go so ballistic when their techniques are exposed. Even a basic amount of awareness of the techniques can be enough to disrupt them.
Its exactly the same as telling someone how a stage magician does his tricks, once you know, then you can see it.

Re: Owen Fitzpatrick,

The DVD cover to his "Adventures in Charisma" says he did his Masters Thesis on Charisma:
[www.nlp.ie]

I would definitely be cautious with someone so interested in swaying the opinions and emotions of others, which is what charisma is.

A bullet point benefit on his DVD set is "create charismatic states." I've found this to be a dangerous practice. When used inappropriately, it is the ability to overpower others by bringing them into some feeling state so that they can't think clearly. Rational people will often feel annoyed or frustrated and leave, and the suggestible folks will follow along. This is exactly what James Ray and others do.

Of course, Ghandi and MLK were also quite charismatic, but we'll see what Mr. Fitzpatrick does with all that power he is accumulating.