Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
richiekgb
()
Date: November 03, 2010 07:35AM
no worries gpaperella - I actually agree with you on a lot of your points there - I apologise for calling you a "follower" you obviously have your own mind and want to bring your own perspective to the discussion and it is welcome here.
The problem I have is that De Grey IS well respected (and well liked) and because of that people listen to him.
If he says that Cryonics is a good idea - then he gives these the Snake Oil Salesmen Integrity which is NOT deserved.
AC makes a good point about "foundations" - They are by and large bullshit organisations which are a cash cow for the people that run them.
If De Grey really believes what he is "selling" and is being used to "create a smokescreen of gobbledygook" so the crooks can "bamboozle the masses" then he has been a Fool. This is the problem De Grey has - and you cannot tell me that the odd $76K chucked his way hasn't made it easier for him to forget about being a real scientist and enjoy the "perks" of life extension/cryonics scam. I hate to say hes a in on "it" but unless he is performing some kind of amazing double-bluff to scam the scammers to get funding for his projects I think we can safely assume he is "in" up to his rather jolly beard!
They wont leave the memory of Sir Arthur C Clark alone either - Clarke was interested in cryonics and wrote about it - BUT he was not signed up for any cryonics arrangements and seemed to change his opinion on its feasibility on a book by book basis. However Alcor of couse use it as a sales tool and quote him as saying cryonics had a 90% chance of success - [www.alcor.org] - If he really thought that I think he would of been deep frozen instead of being buried in his beloved Sri Lanka.
I am starting to understand why most scientists and doctors dismiss cryonics with one or two sentences - They probably refuse to be used out of context and have their scientific credibilty possibly ruined by appearing to be pro-cryonics. Only 61 scientists (inc De Grey) have signed the Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics (and a reasonable % of the signees were cryonics activists in some capacity in any case) out of proably a million working scientists in the world.
It is also worth mentioning (Again) that cryo-biologists are not permitted to work for cryonics organisations so they don't damage the scientific integrity of cryo-biology. Prehaps that should be a rule for all Scientists - don't get involved in quackery if you want to keep your "stripes". :)
The problem I have is that De Grey IS well respected (and well liked) and because of that people listen to him.
If he says that Cryonics is a good idea - then he gives these the Snake Oil Salesmen Integrity which is NOT deserved.
AC makes a good point about "foundations" - They are by and large bullshit organisations which are a cash cow for the people that run them.
If De Grey really believes what he is "selling" and is being used to "create a smokescreen of gobbledygook" so the crooks can "bamboozle the masses" then he has been a Fool. This is the problem De Grey has - and you cannot tell me that the odd $76K chucked his way hasn't made it easier for him to forget about being a real scientist and enjoy the "perks" of life extension/cryonics scam. I hate to say hes a in on "it" but unless he is performing some kind of amazing double-bluff to scam the scammers to get funding for his projects I think we can safely assume he is "in" up to his rather jolly beard!
They wont leave the memory of Sir Arthur C Clark alone either - Clarke was interested in cryonics and wrote about it - BUT he was not signed up for any cryonics arrangements and seemed to change his opinion on its feasibility on a book by book basis. However Alcor of couse use it as a sales tool and quote him as saying cryonics had a 90% chance of success - [www.alcor.org] - If he really thought that I think he would of been deep frozen instead of being buried in his beloved Sri Lanka.
I am starting to understand why most scientists and doctors dismiss cryonics with one or two sentences - They probably refuse to be used out of context and have their scientific credibilty possibly ruined by appearing to be pro-cryonics. Only 61 scientists (inc De Grey) have signed the Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics (and a reasonable % of the signees were cryonics activists in some capacity in any case) out of proably a million working scientists in the world.
It is also worth mentioning (Again) that cryo-biologists are not permitted to work for cryonics organisations so they don't damage the scientific integrity of cryo-biology. Prehaps that should be a rule for all Scientists - don't get involved in quackery if you want to keep your "stripes". :)
Re: Cryonics, museum alcohol preservation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 09, 2010 09:28AM
Hesitate to post this, but saw something interesting in the media.
Fish have been proven to have been preserved for centuries, some since 1750, in an alcohol solution. [research.amnh.org] It is still the state of the art to preserve rare specimens this way, as they have lasted hundreds of years in good condition.
Its interesting that the cheap, state of the art methods of preservation of tissue are not discussed in cryonics.
Too cheap and too proven.
But probably the only thing worse than a 150K cryonics scam, would be some crazies trying to preserve human bodies in an alcohol solution.
But its just a general point how the cryonics people avoid real science and proven methods.
Fish have been proven to have been preserved for centuries, some since 1750, in an alcohol solution. [research.amnh.org] It is still the state of the art to preserve rare specimens this way, as they have lasted hundreds of years in good condition.
Its interesting that the cheap, state of the art methods of preservation of tissue are not discussed in cryonics.
Too cheap and too proven.
But probably the only thing worse than a 150K cryonics scam, would be some crazies trying to preserve human bodies in an alcohol solution.
But its just a general point how the cryonics people avoid real science and proven methods.
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
richiekgb
()
Date: November 10, 2010 05:38AM
Reminds of that myth of Admiral Nelson who was preserved in rum to be buried at home. BUT the sailors corked the barrel and DRANK IT! - Lol they had to throw it overboard because the smell of rotten flesh was making the ship unliveable! - Storys not true but the navy still say "tapping the Admiral" in reference to a free drink - More here: - [www.snopes.com]
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
enoonsti
()
Date: November 10, 2010 02:54PM
Quote
richiekgb
It is also worth mentioning (Again) that cryo-biologists are not permitted to work for cryonics organisations so they V nz BPQ Purs Oblneqrr.
And it is also worth mentioning (again) the background story to this: [alcor.org]
If you feel it is biased, then by all means, contact the people/society mentioned in the article.
Quote
The Anticult
Its interesting that the cheap, state of the art methods of preservation of tissue are not discussed in cryonics.
Too cheap and too proven. Yvxr gubfr pbaqbzf V hfr ba zl zbz.
Fixation is discussed in the Alcor FAQ: [alcor.org]
FAQ stands for Frequently Asked Questions.
Re: Cryonics, Alcor, gobbledygook hogwash antiscience.
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 11, 2010 04:42AM
yeah well, that is the expected response of course.
In reality, they could not charge 150K for the cheaper method, even though it can be stored at room temperature.
Its like when instead of using proven medical tech, the cryonics quacks try and "invent" their own stuff, which doesn't work.
All the rest printed there by Alcor is simply gobbledygook hogwash. Its cryonics antiscience.
There is no proof for anything they are saying there. Where's the evidence?
They claim their method is better, with NO PROOF.
They are saying that the actual SCIENCE being used to store biological specimens, doesn't work, (when it does) and then say their own idea with no proof is better.
That is called Antiscience and quackery.
When in fact, countless biological specimens have been preserved for over 200 years, using proven techniques. Today, the top experts in the world, use the alcohol based methods, to store tissues like rare fish species, and the rest. They use it, because its been proven to work for over 200 years.
Why don't those experts use "cryonics" to store specimens? Because there is no proof it works, and it destroys the cells when the water inside the cell expands when frozen. Every cell has to have the water drained out of it, one cell at a time, in order for it to be frozen and not destroyed. Cryonics does NOT do that, they put their so-called antifreeze in the body, but every cell has to have the water removed, of course that does not happen.
This is the same cryonics bullshit they use in every area.
They say cryonics marketing is banned in BC Canada, but in fact when you read the law, it says cryonics is completely banned.
Cryonics companies constantly manipulate, spin-doctor, and deceive and brazenly lie.
In reality, they could not charge 150K for the cheaper method, even though it can be stored at room temperature.
Its like when instead of using proven medical tech, the cryonics quacks try and "invent" their own stuff, which doesn't work.
All the rest printed there by Alcor is simply gobbledygook hogwash. Its cryonics antiscience.
There is no proof for anything they are saying there. Where's the evidence?
They claim their method is better, with NO PROOF.
They are saying that the actual SCIENCE being used to store biological specimens, doesn't work, (when it does) and then say their own idea with no proof is better.
That is called Antiscience and quackery.
When in fact, countless biological specimens have been preserved for over 200 years, using proven techniques. Today, the top experts in the world, use the alcohol based methods, to store tissues like rare fish species, and the rest. They use it, because its been proven to work for over 200 years.
Why don't those experts use "cryonics" to store specimens? Because there is no proof it works, and it destroys the cells when the water inside the cell expands when frozen. Every cell has to have the water drained out of it, one cell at a time, in order for it to be frozen and not destroyed. Cryonics does NOT do that, they put their so-called antifreeze in the body, but every cell has to have the water removed, of course that does not happen.
This is the same cryonics bullshit they use in every area.
They say cryonics marketing is banned in BC Canada, but in fact when you read the law, it says cryonics is completely banned.
Cryonics companies constantly manipulate, spin-doctor, and deceive and brazenly lie.
Re: Cryonics, Alcor, Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA)
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 11, 2010 05:08AM
Melody Maxim is making more good points.
[cryomedical.blogspot.com]
Yes, the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA) allows Alcor to do what they want with the human remains within the Act, they are donated for EXPERIMENTS, and can be sliced and diced at will.
And if something goes wrong, the corpses or body parts can be disposed of, and no one is going to know anything about it.
Alcor is also claiming to be going broke.
Obviously, that is being said openly to be used as leverage to try and land some rich donors who are going to dump their estates into the Alcor money-pit. Expect that to be used every couple of years.
But if and when they do go broke, goodbye.
The bodies would just be buried or cremated.
People don't realize that Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA) makes them own the bodies, like a medical school, and can bury the body parts in a mass grave, or cremate the remains.
No one is going to ever know about that.
[cryomedical.blogspot.com]
Yes, the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA) allows Alcor to do what they want with the human remains within the Act, they are donated for EXPERIMENTS, and can be sliced and diced at will.
And if something goes wrong, the corpses or body parts can be disposed of, and no one is going to know anything about it.
Alcor is also claiming to be going broke.
Obviously, that is being said openly to be used as leverage to try and land some rich donors who are going to dump their estates into the Alcor money-pit. Expect that to be used every couple of years.
But if and when they do go broke, goodbye.
The bodies would just be buried or cremated.
People don't realize that Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA) makes them own the bodies, like a medical school, and can bury the body parts in a mass grave, or cremate the remains.
No one is going to ever know about that.
Re: Cryonics, Alcor, Uniform Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA)
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 11, 2010 05:18AM
By the way, the cryonics companies vicious and relentless attacks on whistleblowers and critics using SLAPP suits [en.wikipedia.org]
is another reason why these cryonics companies are destructive and dangerous.
Just like Landmark [www.culteducation.com] they are willing to spend millions attacking critics, with the goal of trying to permanently silence criticism and block free speech.
Its a very nasty, ugly and destructive process.
Many of these groups/sects do this, and the cryonics companies are in that category.
is another reason why these cryonics companies are destructive and dangerous.
Just like Landmark [www.culteducation.com] they are willing to spend millions attacking critics, with the goal of trying to permanently silence criticism and block free speech.
Its a very nasty, ugly and destructive process.
Many of these groups/sects do this, and the cryonics companies are in that category.
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
richiekgb
()
Date: November 11, 2010 07:50AM
enoonsti is a cryonics activist/marketer on the less wrong and cold filter forum as well.
didnt realise they "work" for alcor though - :)
Refferring us to writings by Mark "darwin" Fodowitz or whatever he calls himself these days - Yawn....
The fact is Cryobiology is in the main the science of preserving organs for transplant so they can save lives - cryonics is piss - udo - science which claims to "preserve" dead bodies so they can be magically brought back to life with future technology. So any self respecting cryobiologist will steer well clear of it - THE BAD THING is that most people (average joes) will think the 2 are the same thing and may fall for fake scientist dribble by the likes of Mike Fedowitz. It is rather poor show how cryonics fanatics associate themselves with cryobiology to sell their snake oil. The 2 things are radically different and it is my fear that cryonics will tarnish the noble science of cryobiology as most people are not educated enough on the subject to make a informed decision. This could be a problem if their is a important decisions to be made about regulation or methods. We have discussed before how heavily regulated something like In-vitro is for example - well Cryonics is UNREGULATED and people like Fedowitz and ennonsti are free to say what they want in thier claims.
That my freinds is the bullshit and the spin right there - And that is why the cryobiologists are not allowed to work in cryonics because if they do and give thier science a "bad name". Cryonics is unregulated quackery and no scientist worth thier salt would touch it with a barge pole and are very careful what they say about it in case they are taken out of context.
Mike and Enoonsti both know that but it does not stop them trying to fool elderly, impressionable or dying people desperate not to die into signing their estates over to Alcor and similar disorganisations.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 08:01AM by richiekgb.
didnt realise they "work" for alcor though - :)
Refferring us to writings by Mark "darwin" Fodowitz or whatever he calls himself these days - Yawn....
The fact is Cryobiology is in the main the science of preserving organs for transplant so they can save lives - cryonics is piss - udo - science which claims to "preserve" dead bodies so they can be magically brought back to life with future technology. So any self respecting cryobiologist will steer well clear of it - THE BAD THING is that most people (average joes) will think the 2 are the same thing and may fall for fake scientist dribble by the likes of Mike Fedowitz. It is rather poor show how cryonics fanatics associate themselves with cryobiology to sell their snake oil. The 2 things are radically different and it is my fear that cryonics will tarnish the noble science of cryobiology as most people are not educated enough on the subject to make a informed decision. This could be a problem if their is a important decisions to be made about regulation or methods. We have discussed before how heavily regulated something like In-vitro is for example - well Cryonics is UNREGULATED and people like Fedowitz and ennonsti are free to say what they want in thier claims.
That my freinds is the bullshit and the spin right there - And that is why the cryobiologists are not allowed to work in cryonics because if they do and give thier science a "bad name". Cryonics is unregulated quackery and no scientist worth thier salt would touch it with a barge pole and are very careful what they say about it in case they are taken out of context.
Mike and Enoonsti both know that but it does not stop them trying to fool elderly, impressionable or dying people desperate not to die into signing their estates over to Alcor and similar disorganisations.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 08:01AM by richiekgb.
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
enoonsti
()
Date: November 12, 2010 04:08AM
It appears my last post did not make it through. Since I have been a moderator at various forums, I understand the role he plays, and have edited my post to a version that should be acceptable for a balanced forum that allows all sides to be heard. uggc://oebjfregbbyxvg.pbz/snhyg-gbyrenapr.cat
You are leaving out all of the debates that have occured, especially on Cryonet. Here is Alcor's Mike Perry on fixation: [www.depressedmetabolism.com]
No. Freezing damage is the exact opposite of how you just described it. Ice forms extracellularly, squashing the cells. Here is an introductory video from a scientist: [video.google.com]#
Actually, I find the many critics who are not interested in seeing cryonics being improved to be more guilty of this. And no, I am not referring to Melody. She's an absolutely valuable critic, especially when she focuses on certain technical issues. I don't agree 100% with all of her recommendations, but I don't agree 100% with anybody.
How many has Melody been met with? "Online trash talk" is not the equivalent of a SLAPP suit.
I have made 8 posts on Less Wrong. One of them was this: [lesswrong.com]
Here was a picture I once drew for Melody at Cold Filter: [www.network54.com]
Suppose for a moment that the world's leading cryobiologist in organ cryopreservation was a supporter of cryonics, but was not allowed to come out in support of it due to negative sentiments expressed by society. Or suppose that James Randi was also lukewarm to the idea, but secretly for the same reasons. How should a chef at some pub feel after losing all of his loved ones due to that chef's stubborn attitude? Here is the Wikipedia entry on sunk costs: [en.wikipedia.org]
Please scroll down to the part about behavioral economics.
Cryonics should be practiced safely and cheaply at my local hospital. Please point to a post where I tried to "fool elderly, impressionable or dying people desperate not to die into signing their estates over to Alcor and similar disorganisations." Otherwise, kindly stop making up stuff.
uggc://jjj.lbhghor.pbz/jngpu?i=z_zQGYcuVIL
Quote
The Anticult
In reality, they could not charge 150K for the cheaper method, even though it can be stored at room temperature.
You are leaving out all of the debates that have occured, especially on Cryonet. Here is Alcor's Mike Perry on fixation: [www.depressedmetabolism.com]
Quote
The Anticult
it destroys the cells when the water inside the cell expands when frozen. Every cell has to have the water drained out of it, one cell at a time, in order for it to be frozen and not destroyed. Cryonics does NOT do that, they put their so-called antifreeze in the body, but every cell has to have the water removed, of course that does not happen.
No. Freezing damage is the exact opposite of how you just described it. Ice forms extracellularly, squashing the cells. Here is an introductory video from a scientist: [video.google.com]#
Quote
The Anticult
Cryonics companies constantly manipulate, spin-doctor, and deceive and brazenly lie.
Actually, I find the many critics who are not interested in seeing cryonics being improved to be more guilty of this. And no, I am not referring to Melody. She's an absolutely valuable critic, especially when she focuses on certain technical issues. I don't agree 100% with all of her recommendations, but I don't agree 100% with anybody.
Quote
The Anticult
By the way, the cryonics companies vicious and relentless attacks on whistleblowers and critics using SLAPP suits
How many has Melody been met with? "Online trash talk" is not the equivalent of a SLAPP suit.
Quote
richiekgb
enoonsti is a cryonics activist/marketer on the less wrong
I have made 8 posts on Less Wrong. One of them was this: [lesswrong.com]
Quote
richiekgb
and cold filter forum as well.
Here was a picture I once drew for Melody at Cold Filter: [www.network54.com]
Quote
richiekgb
no scientist worth thier salt would touch it with a barge pole.
Suppose for a moment that the world's leading cryobiologist in organ cryopreservation was a supporter of cryonics, but was not allowed to come out in support of it due to negative sentiments expressed by society. Or suppose that James Randi was also lukewarm to the idea, but secretly for the same reasons. How should a chef at some pub feel after losing all of his loved ones due to that chef's stubborn attitude? Here is the Wikipedia entry on sunk costs: [en.wikipedia.org]
Please scroll down to the part about behavioral economics.
Quote
richiekgb
Mike and Enoonsti both know that but it does not stop them trying to fool elderly, impressionable or dying people desperate not to die into signing their estates over to Alcor and similar disorganisations.
Cryonics should be practiced safely and cheaply at my local hospital. Please point to a post where I tried to "fool elderly, impressionable or dying people desperate not to die into signing their estates over to Alcor and similar disorganisations." Otherwise, kindly stop making up stuff.
Quote
richiekgb
didnt... Refferring...Fodowitz....the main the science...Fedowitz....a informed....if their is a important decisions....ennonsti... thier
uggc://jjj.lbhghor.pbz/jngpu?i=z_zQGYcuVIL
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
richiekgb
()
Date: November 12, 2010 06:28AM
is this ennosti a bot?
I cannot make head or tale of that - except that the bot likes the writings of Mike Perry (the guy that reputedly cut off his own manhood) - what kind of link is uggc://.....
???
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 06:40AM by richiekgb.
I cannot make head or tale of that - except that the bot likes the writings of Mike Perry (the guy that reputedly cut off his own manhood) - what kind of link is uggc://.....
???
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 06:40AM by richiekgb.
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