I watched an interesting TV documentary on the self-proclaimed genius, Dr Aubrey de Grey, a few years ago and found it again online:

[video.google.com]#

He is a man with a fervent desire to live forever, but having watched his antics in the documentary I decided that I didn't want to spend 1000 years around people with such ideas, so will happily shuffle off at my appointed time.

Its a point picked up by one writer in this piece on the first Singularity conference:

[www.sfgate.com]


"As soon as you take issue, you're quickly labeled a Luddite,'' said Jennifer Lahl, national director of the Center for Bioethics and Culture Network in Oakland. "But transhumanism begs the question: What needs to be improved upon, who gets to decide and where does it end?"

Richard Hayes, executive director of Oakland's Center for Genetics and Society, likened modern transhumanists to the early 20th-century futurists who were fellow travelers with the fascist movements of that era.

"The transhumanists are fundamentally elitists," Hayes said. "Once they start enhancing themselves toward post-human status they will have little concern with the rest of humanity."

I just watched about five minutes of the Styles' video, (the one "richiekgb" linked to, in the previous message). If I can stop laughing through it, I may watch the rest, later, (probably not). I couldn't get past this:

"...body pH, for example, drops very rapidly, shortly after death and all of the other body's...parts of the body's homeostatic system will cease to function somewhat..."
[telexlr8.blip.tv]

"Somewhat"??? That's funny. How much does David Styles really know and understand about the medical sciences, or the surgical procedures needed to deliver cryopreservative solutions to the tissues of the human body? My guess is: not much. In fact, I'd rather enjoy giving him a pop-quiz. (Maybe he could give me a quiz about satanic rituals, or the habits of vampires, in exchange.)

It really bothers me that people like Aubrey de Grey and Ben Best are being associated with this person, who obviously does not have a relevant background, and whose irrelevant background is rather comical and embarrassing. AUBREY...BEN...COME ON, YOU GUYS...you are making me feel really stupid, for ever believing you have been serious about cryonics! Really!!! Does the cryonics community want leaders who can actually advance the science, or just more "snake oil" salesmen??

Has anyone noticed that EUCRIO is an anagram of OUR ICE?
Coincidence?

The name "David Styles" is an anagram of "styled divas"

It's also an anagram of "Real Con Artist" of course you have to
add and change several of the letters, but I think it's worth the
effort :-)

David Styles was unable to get his Powerpoint presentation to work during his webinar/salespitch. What chance he can manage the infinitely more complex medical procedures he intends to perform on his customers?

Of course, until his team of cryonicists is fully up to speed he will be waiting for the customer to 'deanimate' then calling an agency to send round the necessary personnel. ( if he can access the agency numbers on his ipad, naturally) Of course all those agency nurses and techs will be conversant--at no notice at all-- in the mysteries of cryonics and will have no ethical objections to the procedures.

I'm not suprised at all Mel and YOU should not feel stupid because so called "intellegensia" feel it neccessary to be mixed up with members of the ToV cult.
Lets face it Ben Best is hardly a man of integrity and science - he never was and never will be. He has always been involved in cult-like groups like EST, Communes and all sorts of weirdo stuff. He is a "self-appointed" expert on cryonics mainly due to his tireless activism than any medical/scientific merit. I would love to talk to someone who knew him "back in the day" and can give us some info on his past. Its like he appeared in 1990 with that website but i am sure some digging around his old town would shed some light. - [www.benbest.com]

Aubrey is very similar though a lot more likeable - but he is a bawhair away from fully fledged Crankdom and his continued association with Scammers like Styles, Alcor, LEF ect do him no favours. I don't know what his reputation is like in the USA but he is a bit of a joke in the UK. In fact in a recent "top 100 most influential people in UK science" he and SENS did not get a mention unless you count " 2nd best beard in science" (I cannae remember who was 1st LOL). Lets be clear on this Aubrey's doctorates are not in Gerontology - Hes a Computer Sciences guy who looked after the computers during a a gene experiment (flybase) before having his "epiphanny". He did enjoy media attention but recently I think the media has got tired of his endless "aging is a treatable disease" rant. SENS WAS debunked as cargo cult science a while ago - but Aubrey being the master of spin that he is counter-argued so well through Technology Review Magazine that most people are unaware of this and he and his followers think he "won": [www.technologyreview.com]
Apparently in 2008 he only got paid a "modest $76,250 " (Thats about £50K which is pretty generous by my standards) from his non-for-profit company the M-Foundation - so he is milking it for all its "worth" in my opinion - might be interesting to find out what he's also milking from the multitude of other non-for-profits he is privy too. I think it would be pretty fair to say that Aubrey De Grey is another person with "misguided good intentions" again. Like the Cryonics people once he got debunked by real scientists he has conciously decided to get in on the whole Anti-Aging Scam and sell his idea's to baby boomer transhumanists! I have been waiting for some "supplement" range to come out with Aubreys name on it like Ray Kurzweils "futuristic" products.

SHOCKER: [www.youtube.com] - How De Grey fooled the world!


@ Stoic - Interesting - its no secret I started the Meetup Page London Futurists - I specifically called the futurists after the group you mentioned as a "ironic statement" no one got it :(. And i got called a "luddite" for my skeptism on many occassions as well as sociapath, Vitalist and a few other good ones I forget now. I started a transhumanism thread as although linked to cryonics it is not cryonics - But i do think it is another cultlike group which needs more investigation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2010 07:08AM by richiekgb.

Hello, just signed up. The story at the beginning about Alcor is terrible. I hadn't heard anything like that about them before.

I disagree though with the characterization of Aubrey de Grey as a kooky know-nothing, milking charities for all they're worth and about to release his own line of dandelion fluff pills. If I may, I'd like to set a few things straight in factual statements richiekgb put out there. de Grey's PhD is in Biogerontology. Cambridge is old school, literally, and at Cambridge if you have even an undergraduate degree and you publish a book, that book can be considered as a doctoral dissertation. He put forward the Reductive Hotspot Hypothesis, which is now used to explain how mitochondrial DNA deletion mutations expand clonally throughout a cell, causing it to go into a degenerate metabolic state and inflict oxidative stress on the surrounding tissue. This is the accepted wisdom today. He's a PhD in his own right.

The business with the Technology Review is from 2005. The result of all that was that the review determined that a compelling case for SENS hadn't been made, and that also the critics had not made a compelling case that it was unworthy of debate. That was five years ago now. Since then, the Methuselah Foundation has through its M-Prize contributed to some great discoveries in this field. And the SENS Foundation pursues research of its own. For example, John Schloendorn's findings in the 7-Ketocholesterol Catabolism by Rhodococcus jostii RHA1. Or perhaps Dr. Corral-Debrinski's discovery in a new method for the allotopic expression of ND1 and ND4 mitochondrial genes, restoring function to human retinal cells in a petri dish with inherited disorders in those genes, work that SENS helped to fund. The senescent T-cell scrubber that SENS has tested on a mouse holds a lot of promise as well as a life-saving medical device.

These discoveries are applicable to other diseases and not just aging, so even if the master plan, taking on aging as a whole runs into serious trouble, we still have the benefit of those treatments. As far as charities go, this one is only taking in a few million a year and is coming out with tangible results on the other end, so I'd say it's one of the good ones.

Also $76k is not a lot of money for somebody who is head of a foundation to take home per year. How do you go from that to probably bilking, and about to come out with some ridiculous health supplement line?

lol didnt take long for one his "followers" to stick up for him (de Grey) Sorry Gpaperella but you obviously felt the need to join after reading my post on De Grey and probably don;t know why we brought him up for discussion. I actually paid money to see him speak publically about SENS, bought his book so as a consumer I can be critical of him - He is very Likable (yes we have also met once breifly too at Humanity + 2010 where he was speaking) as i said before and its not easy to have a controversial opinion of him - anyone who is prepared to use colloquial speech and drink beer when discussing science will always get a thumbs up from me - even if he is selling what I suspect is little more than cargo cult science. Hell what use would he be to those organisations if he was a unlikable SOB with no social skills?

As a person I think De Grey is a funny intelligent and Interesing but that doesnt mean I cannot question wether he is qualified to speak on Aging/Cryonics/Medical matters. He is a Computer Programmer and self taught gerontology thoerorist but he is not a Dector or even worked in Cambridges Genetics Dept - Its common knowledge that his PHd was on the basis of his book - "In 1999, his book The Mitochondrial Free Radical Theory of Aging was published, in which he writes that obviating damage to mitochondrial DNA might by itself extend lifespan significantly, though he said it was more likely that cumulative damage to mitochondria is a significant cause of senescence, but not the single dominant cause. On the basis of the book, the University of Cambridge awarded de Grey a PhD in 2000.[8]"

Thats From his Wikipedia page - seems to me his PHd was "honory" and not because he actually trained as a doctor of gerontology. The Technological Review 20K prize is a joke if you look into it properly and read all the rebuttals - It was like the editor didnt like the critisism and had his own agenda on promoting De Grey.

Getting off the point a little here so,

At the end of the day this guy Aubrey is on the board of the aforementioned Alcor and countless other self-help non-profit disorganisations to do with Cryonics activism and life extension. (http://www.imminst.org/cryonics_letter/).
His support of obvious cons like Eucrio and people like David Styles and Saul Kent DOES bring his integrity into question. he is a Scientist right? So you would think he would know better than to associate himself with "self-help cryonics" rather than science.

Or even easier - How comes in a world of life extension quackery and supplement cons - Aubrey de Grey is the lone voice, the real genius, the only one who is NOT selling bullshit? How can he be part of all these dodgy organisations and not be "milking it"? I am sorry but I don;t buy it - I am using occams razor on this one!

Okay, I apologize if my interjection was derailing. The topic at hand is cryonics, and discussion of Aubrey de Grey was tangential.

My brief perusal of the Alcor controversy over Ted Williams from Wikipedia showed that Ted did want to be frozen. His will in 1996 said he wanted to be cremated, but he later changed his mind, and his note in 2000 stated he wanted to be frozen. He died in 2002. The suit was brought by Bobby Jo Williams Ferrell, who dropped the suit when the other children agreed to split the trust fund equally with her. Kind of messed up, bringing suit to violate somebody's last wishes for leverage to get more from the estate. That's my take on it.

I also think that cryonics, until somebody can be revived, should legally be considered a funerary option just like cremation or burial, and regulated accordingly. Actually it should be regulated more, because these customers are paying a lot of money to have their bodies in good enough condition to theoretically be revived eventually. They should be guaranteed more than the usual fresh flowers every week next to a place marker. Considering their remains donated medical tissue is unacceptable.

I don't know why Aubrey is on the Alcor board. Maybe he thinks thawing is going to work in the future? It sounds like quite a technical challenge to me, but if in 100 years they could do it, well... okay. My strongest reservations about that ever being possible are the lack of regulation on these facilities. Why would a company honor a non-binding promise for 100 years? I'll ask him about this if I get the chance.

I think supplements are unproven and potentially dangerous, in general, and should only be taken on the advice of your doctor.

My understanding is that there is a community of atheists who want many of the same things that religious people want. They want an out from the oblivion of death. They can get downright kooky about it. I think I read about some guy who ate powdered jellyfish because this species was found to not age. Good way to poison yourself there, ace. And this admittedly small crowd donates generously to the cause of life extension, on the fronts of cryonics, scientific and medical advances, and weird health food and pill stuff. I personally only see number 2 as a reasonable way to spend one's money, because one, it might work eventually, and two, it provides new treatments for diseases in the meantime.

Without talking to Aubrey de Grey about this in person, there's no way for me really to know where he fits into this. Is he enmeshed in plots to fleece nerds of their nerdbucks by freezing their heads? I suspect the answer is no. Is he pushing dandelion fluff pills? I know the answer is no to that. I can't really fault him, though, for not distancing himself from the crowd that donates to his foundation. He publishes papers, his people publish papers, and he funds some spectacular work other scientists are doing through the MFoundation, so he has my support. I care about tangible concrete results, and he is generating them.

Everything I have read from Aubrey de Grey so far, pretty much reads according to the old adage, if you can't confuse 'em with the facts, then bamboozle 'em with bullshit.

Everyone of these guys has their own "foundation", as that is the way to access money tax-free. You give yourself a tidy salary, and you also get expenses, travel, car lease, food, etc. Its a sweet deal.
You can also hire yourself or partner for "research" projects, where you try and come up with things to sell, patent, or market.

If you can build up your foundations assets enough, then you are set for life.

Now of course, many of those that deeply involved in "cryonics" are true believers. But part and parcel of this cryonics "cargo cult" [www.lhup.edu] is that they can make some serious cash along the way.
Note they all have these fancy foundation, and "boards" and trips and meetings, grants, and endless ways to make some cash.

And they need guys like Aubrey de Grey to put out a smokescreen of gobbledygook to bamboozle the masses.

--------------------
CARGO CULT SCIENCE by Richard Feynman [www.lhup.edu]
Adapted from the Caltech commencement address given in 1974.

Cryonics as cargo cult science, the description below from Feynman, fits perfectly.
But in cryonics, they are wearing fake white coats, using bogus instruments, doing bogus processes with untrained people, using bogus medical sounding titles, and bogus medical jargon.
They release bogus papers, with gobbledygook medicalese to try and confuse people and perhaps themselves.
They have shiny containers, tables, fake ambulances, and everything else you can think of.
They make false analogies with frozen worms or a hibernating frog, or how individual cells are frozen only after removing all of the water from inside each cell.

Its a cryonics cargo cult.

The only thing real about it, is the money and the legal contracts and irrevocable trusts.


-----------------------------
CARGO CULT SCIENCE by Richard Feynman [www.lhup.edu]
Adapted from the Caltech commencement address given in 1974.

QUOTE: "So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and
science that isn't science.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are
examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the
South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw
airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same
thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like
runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a
wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head
like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's
the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're
doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the
way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So
I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the
apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but
they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land." ...

"In summary, the idea is to try to give all of the information to
help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the
information that leads to judgment in one particular direction or
another."
------------------------------------