I found the Satanism, Vampirism/Cryonics link quite astonishing but on reflection not too suprising as all those organisations are concerned with the dream of immortality in some guise or another and are all utilising the natural human fear of death to promote their scams.

It would be more accurate to call the 'fear of death' a fear of the extingishing of the individual mind as that is what humans are most attached to and most fear losing, not the biological aging and death of the body which is accepted as inevitable on some level by all adults.

All occult systems are primarily concerned with this 'immortality of the individual mind' beyond the physical limitations of the gross human body.

richiekgb:

Please do not post personal emails here.

The email above has been edited. Names have been deleted and substituted with [...].

You now have pre-approved status, which means your posts do not require a moderator's approval.

But one more incident like this one and you lose that status and be back to full moderation.

Also, it is against the rules of this message board to post personal email addresses here.

Please read the rules you agreed to before you began posting here, again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2010 12:01AM by rrmoderator.

@ RRMOderator

read again - Blush

Apologies to rm moderator for having to step in. I just say stuff how i see it - BUT should be more careful when posting stuff up. I am grateful that
on here we can discuss things freely as long as we respect the rules - sorry again.

I have at two different times met people who really believed that cryonics would work, and they were a bit out there in my opinion (one of them thought humanity is creating a computer god, that will run on the power of the stars--etc. etc. --very odd, the other actually just talked like cryonics will work, no ifs, it was weird). I can understand someone who has an 80% belief etc, but to be at 100% is a bit strange in my opinion. From what I've read so far, the TOV seems to believe that they are doing what they can to truly be immortal--I'm still not sure if they believe they actually will or not though. Most cryonicists I've met have a different level of what they believe. I've met young people who are signed up with Alcor but really don't care at all about any of the politics, don't care to follow what is going on, and just like having arrangements set up in case something happens to them. I know there are about 2,000 people signed up, a very small amount (including CI and Alcor--ACS keeps their membership private, but everyone I've talked to thinks they have only a handful, if anyone beyond their leadership). I figure I've met in person at various conferences (Accelerating Change, CR Society, Transvision, Convergence), futurist meetings (London, Austin, & Portland), and at Alcor (I visited there twice before I became a member) -I've probably met a few hundred cryonicists. On line I've heard of, or "e-met" several hundred more. I try to add CI or Alcor members to my Facebook for instance, but the group is so small, with no really community organization --that none of my real life, day to day friends are Cryonicists. Someday I hope to have a live-time friend who is a cryonicists, but for now I skate with (I do roller derby), attend Church, go out for coffee with parents of my kids' friends, have neighbours (our new neighbours here in TX are awesome and have a grandson that comes to play with my son), attend LLL meetings, attend school volunteering events--all with people who like to hear about cryonics, think it is interesting, but don't actually sign up. I'm used to that, and I understand it--it is almost impossible for cryonics to work. For me, I'm signed up but know I might not get presereved--also that it probably won't work, but would be a nice surprise if it did. I don't think the future will be perfect, or much different from today. What we have today is like magic compared to 500 years ago, there will still be problems 500 to a thousand years from now, I may or may not get a chance to help with them. I focus on doing good in my life now, enjoying my family, learning new things, and being able to donate what I can to non-profits that I support (social action oriented, we do Heifer Foundation for Christmas and Save the Children). But why relay all this? Probably to show that I'm in the middle as cryonicists go. Yes, I'll be public and talk about it, volunteer from time to time--but I don't do it full time, I also don't ignore the whole community. I love people, why they do what they do, in all the social groups I'm a part of, even on forums. Evolutionary Psychology has always been an interest of mine, but I love about all science. If you follow me on FB I'm often posting links to phys.org if I'm not talking about things I'm doing that day with my kids (today we have girl scouts over for swimming, my eldest is doing Japanese, my two girls have piano lessons, we are going to view the Pumpkin Trail later and this weekend we are traveling to Austin for a friend's wedding, staying with my mom, seeing our friends at First UU, going to a Day of the Dead Party :) ) but, that is mainly my life. Regarding just one quick web-definition, I can only think of how one cryonics organization might fit in, but I don't see that in the Alcor or CI members:


Cult: followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; "it was a satanic cult"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


PS, one thing to note is that I give way more money to my church than to Alcor over time. I'm grandfathered in at Alcor under a lower rate which comes out of my life insurance policy, which is paid to my trust. I give to my church monthly. I have figured up before an estimate of what I give annually to various non-profits and the amount over a vast amount more than my suspension amount, more than the older home I have and used car I drive. It makes me feel good to donate to organizations like Doctor's Without Borders, because I feel that is some way I'm helping alleviate suffering, it is a priority in life for me to make room within my budget to be able to donate. The cryonics stuff is just what I have set up for when I die, my life insurance pay out is at least guaranteed ;)

Also of note is that I've actually met transhumanist singularity believer types who feel ageing will be ended in their life-time, are not signed up for cryonics since they "won't die", and don't even think they need to plan for retirement. Absolutest beliefs anywhere can be dangerous, sometimes for the person and sometimes for the greater society.

If any group being analyzed/researched has something to say, it can be said in the public thread.
All PM private messages are automatically deleted without being read.

More on Styles from Melody Maxim: [cryomedical.blogspot.com]


"Do I really think David Styles is a devil-worshipper, or that he believes he's an immortal vampire? No...I think he's an attention-seeking scam artist, plain and simple.The only "scary" aspect of this news is the fact that he has been able to garner the support of people like Saul Kent, Catherine Baldwin, Ben Best, and other prominent members of cryonics organizations, who attended the launch of Style's European cryonics organization, "EUCRIO." According to a fairly reliable source, Kent and Best knew of Styles' cult-connections (pyramid schemes), prior to attending Style's launch of EUCRIO. (Is it just me, or do the "leaders" of cryonics activities seem to have more of an affinity for con artists and "yes men," than they do for reputable scientists and medical professionals?)

"!Jill" exposes Styles, here: [www.cryonicsfactsheet.co.uk] !Jill links Styles to the Cryonics Institute, but neglects to note Styles' obvious connections to the Life Extension Foundation (LEF)-funded company, Suspended Animation of Boynton Beach Florida, or Styles' alleged connections to Alcor and KrioRus, for which he claims to be offering transport services."

@ Shannon Vyff

Without adding loads of pointless family details to persuade us all how normal you are (some of us also have kids we are proud of too - but prefer not to parade them around like trophys to sell ourselves!) in you answer. You can't pick and choose what people say about you when you agressivly promote yourself in the public eye - why give loads of family information and ask for what you consider negative stuff to be removed - Its like you want to have your cake and eat it too - I'm sure a certain !jill kindly suggested you say NO COMMENT! :)

Anyway i digress - you seem to want to help so instead of cut/pasting from your cryonics tracts tell us the truth:

You are on the board of these organisations which Melody Maxim mentions in her blog right?
So tell us who is really funding David Styles - Are you involved too?
What about the other ToV Adept Erik Bourgouise who seems to be involved with Cryonics Belgium?
Why did David Styles REALLY Step down from Immortality Institute?
Whats the link with satanism and cryonics - is it some kind of REAL ice cool Dracula Coffin?

Hi,

About my family, I love my children and by sharing what I do daily, it is in the hopes that people will see I'm a busy mom. Before we went to a wedding in Austin this past weekend we attended a Day of the Dead party at our former church, my daughter asked what costume I was wearing (I had a black pencil skirt and a black&white floral top on) and my husband responded, "busy mom" I found that amusing. But to answer your questions:

I'm not on the board of any organizations that I saw listed on Melody's blog. I don't know anyone at ASC, I'm not on CI's board, not on Alcor's or Cryonics UK or Eurcrio.

I don't know who is funding David Styles. I have met him, he seemed nice--but I did say I thought Cryonics UK should not have "A ticket to the future" on its site, as that was misleading in my opinion. I determined he is someone who really believes that cryonics will work, and I thought that it was nice that there was a young person that was volunteering in the UK, to learn stand-by and how to help UK cryonicists get suspension. I had no idea he had any background with TOV or COS when I had met him--that came out later and I was not sure what to believe, things I saw on your site (Richie, but also on Melody's) were new to me recently. I don't know how much David Styles believes those things, some of them seem damaging to me. I was living in the UK last year, and had attended some of the weekend Cryonics UK trainings--but never heard about Eucrio, that has been new since I left. I don't know who funds it, Melody knows more about that.

I've never met Erik Bourgouise, and didn't know he was, or if he is, COS or TOV.

I am on the board at Immortality Institute and am proud of the anti-aging research that we are able to fund each year, you are welcome to check out our forums to see what goes on there. There are a lot of discussions there from supplements & CR, to nanotech and various ways technological or biological ways of attaining life extension--from the realistic, to the far-out-there ideas that are more science fiction. There are also always discussions about changing the name to something more mainstream, some people like using Immortality, others want something they see as more realistic. David stated why he stepped down, and there are public statements that can be read. When he ran for a position earlier this year his other organizational affiliations were not known. There have been allegations that he has not spoken about publicly, I don't know if he is actively in leadership at TOV or COS. I do know that he took on conference planning and stepped down from leadership at ImmInst to focus on the conference. You'll have to ask him though to find out what he is currently doing.

About the cryonics and vampire stuff, I find it weird. I had heard a rumour years ago that some cryonicists were alleged to be COS, and didn't know if it was true or not. I had never met one, or knowingly met one--and had met many normal people that are in cryonics. I figured that cryonics attracts all types of people, and would attract some hedonistic lifestyle types as well as the more principled family oriented types. This recent allegation that all TOV leaders are required to be cryonicists, seems strange. I certainly had not heard that, but figure there probably are not that many TOV leaders that sign up--because while cryonics is a small field, TOV seems smaller. I suppose I would not know who was TOV and who was not though, as they have some sort of vow to secrecy it appears. I don't know how widespread it is, but suspect more will be coming out about it in the future. I do find it an unfortunate connection with cryonics due to all the obvious jokes and associations one could make. There is a lot that needs to be done to help cryonics become more professional, and hopefully people will focus on how to do that more.

I saw a response from Ben Best, president of the Cryonics Institute, which responded to some observations made here, posted on a site called Cold Filter.

Does anyone else find this real strange?

Why didn't Best respond here, or even Cryonet or the Cryonics Institutes own (private?) discussion forum.
Well he may have responded on the Cryonics Institute site also, anyone here on that site who might confirm this?
Shannon Vyff maybe?

I got to admit that the stuff coming to light on some of the main players in the cryonics movement sure makes unappetizing reading.

I think I know the answer to that one. I heard that cryonicists that post here get kicked off, someone warned me (not Ben, or anyone mentioned here), or that they get harassed. I still have not read through all the pages, but I suspect some people got into heated arguments and that is why they were kicked off. I've been too busy recently to go over all the arguments and information here, my kids' grandma is driving from KS to visit this Thursday. Last night we had Boy Scouts, today I'm helping my son sell stuff for his Middle School Men's club fundraiser (a link to the site is on my FB, they have cookie dough, jewelry, magazines, Christmas ornaments and such, over half the sale goes to help fund bus trips to competitions :) ) after that it is goals' night at my eldest's High School. I set this thread to send notifications to my email so I could see if anyone was asking me questions--but I do want to read over it all and ask my own questions at some point.

I agree, for me, it is quite depressing to see all this recent scandal involving some cryonicist leaders. Till this past November, I didn't know anything about ACS--I still don't know much, but what I've found out is highly disturbing. I'm hoping David Styles is actually an earnest young man, it is my nature to not think he is in this for money. If he is involved in the other organizations perhaps he could confirm or explain his beliefs. I've followed Melody in the past with her work to show how SA can be better from a professional and technical stand point, she has been a voice of reason within the field for years and is highly informed. I've seen some of the debates on Cold Filter as well in the past, from people that work in cryonics to those outside the field about various issues such as how the boards should be run, or how suspensions can be done better. Thankfully there are also stable people in leadership at Alcor and CI, there are a lot of highly intelligent people who are upset with incompetence and working to professionalize their organizations. Probably most people reading this thread are anti-cryonics, but there are people like Melody as well who want to see it like it could be-and work hard to get it there. I myself wish I could do more, but I simply don't put the time in. I'm half-way between someone who signs up and just has it in the background as an end-of-life decision--to someone who is a full time volunteer or cryonicist organization employee. I'm there partly because I'm a social person, and partly because over the past decade as I've volunteered for different organizations (LLL, PTA & PTSAs, UU churches & schools) I've seen what a hard time larger organizations have being run (there are some sad things going on right now in LLLI) and I realize that cryonics is way smaller and more fragile--there simply are not that many people the field. I think cryonics is "cool", an idea based on evidence that it could work--but I think there are a ton of obstacles against it working, and don't think it will. I try to help the field in what ways I can though because I have some good friends within it who also care about it. I also think it should be an end-of-life option, that I'd like to see continue doing research, grow, professionalize and to be around centuries or millennia, I think science then could learn from bodies preserved from throughout the ages about diseases and such, even if the people can never be "re-animated".

OK Ms Vyff how 'bout you answer the 2nd question?

Did Best post his "justifications" on the CI discussion site or not?
I'd guess he didn't, and once you get a flavor of those emails I can
fully understand why he might not.

I sincerely wonder how well informed the folk signed up with the two
or three cryonics companies are, not very would be my guess.

(Note I'm leaving out how much I love my family and how busy I am etc
in the name of brevity).