Charles Platt's Excuse for Cryonics Fraud (Copy of my blog post, from this morning: [cryomedical.blogspot.com])
On Cold Filter, Charles Platt writes: "I believe the original rationale for referring to cryopreserved human beings as "patients" was to remind all those involved that the human beings are not necessarily irreversibly dead, and therefore should be treated with the same care and conscientiousness as if they were everyday patients." http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1287543217/the+reason+for+the+neologism

And the excuse for referring to people like Michael "Mike Darwin" Federowicz, and many others with no more formal education than a high school diploma, as "surgeons" is to remind people of what? It's not to "remind" people of anything; it's to DECEIVE people.

Alcor and Suspended Animation refer to people as "surgeons" and "patients," along with all those images of people in surgical settings, wearing surgical garb, to create the illusion of medical professionals performing cryonics procedures, and that is FRAUDULENT.

(Note: Alcor's photos appear to be of people, (mostly laymen, I believe), actually attempting to perform medical procedures, while Suspended Animation's photos are staged photos of laymen PRETENDING to be performing medical procedures.)

Let's not forget Suspended Animation's manager and pseudo-surgeon clumsily using a barrage of medical terminology, attempting to deceive the public, regarding the quality of SA's services:
[cryomedical.blogspot.com]

[cryomedical.blogspot.com]

And, let's not forget all the mistakes Alcor's Chief Medical Advisor, Steve Harris MD, has made, in regard to medications and hypothermic medical procedures.

[cryomedical.blogspot.com]

[cryomedical.blogspot.com]

Its accurate that what they are doing in cryonics is in fact a conscious deception.
Because the technical legal cryonics paperwork, says that in fact the legally dead body is human remains, and body parts, being used for medical experimentation, and can be disposed of at any time.
Like those who donate their body to a medical school to be cut into 1000 pieces for medical students to practice on, and then buried as body parts or cremated.

But that does not sound too good in marketing and advertising brochures.
So instead, they decided to use tricky-words and call the deceased human remains "patients" in their advertising brochures.
The same method is used to call some layman in a rented white coat a "surgeon".

Up to now, they have operated under the radar, except in British Columbia Canada which banned cryonics and the deceptive marketing promise of bringing people back from the dead. The cryonics salespeople have used deception about that as well, by trying to say they have only banned the marketing of cryonics. That is another conscious deception. They have banned any type of offering of cryonics, not just selling it. As of course, a company could say they offer it for "free" if you donate 150K to their "charity" or some other loophole.

Its deception top to bottom. Conscious, planned deception.
If the authorities are made aware they are calling laymen "surgeons" who are operating on "patients" as the cryonics group disputes the concept of "legal death", they could be in serious trouble.
Because if they dispute the concept of "legal death" and have an unlicensed layman "surgeon" cutting up the corpse, and decapitating it. Is that not practicing "medicine" without a license?
Of course, the body is legally dead, so its not medicine anymore. Its in the same area as modern mummification.


So its most likely the false advertising, and calling laymen surgeons, dead bodies "patients", and the various other cryonics deceptions, like the financial "trusts" where they say they are going to put your money away for you when you are brought back to life in the future.
That would have to be some kind of financial fraud. Anyone who got scammed by that, could report it to their local police fraud squad, like any other swindle, fraud, or scam.


The cryonics salespeople have stated they want to use RELIGIOUS impulses for immortality that human's have, and transfer them to cryonics. They know what they are doing.
Its called manipulation, persuasion, influence. Every cultish group and sect does that.

Am going to think as an amateur ethicist here and come up with some imaginary scenarios.

I want to make it clear that I do not consider cryogenics at all a feasible process given the current state of science.

But.. I am going to pretend for the sake of speculation that it is feasible.

Having done this, I am going to list some potential social and ethical problems that would arise.

What if someone is revived and they discover the world is more complicated than ever before and they lack the social skills and training to cope? (Imagine someone put into a coma in 1750, and they are awakened in 1950. That person has slept through the invention of the automobile, and wakes up, tries to cross a street and is run over, because he or she doenst know a thing about waiting for the green traffic light)

A person put into suspended animation today and revived later might well be unable to cope with a whole new society that changed in his or her coma. (Look how much of a change we have had just with computers in the past 15 to 20 years)
What if someone is revived and they're left frostbitten or mentally incapacitated and unable to take care of themselves after revival?

What if all their friends and family are dead and they have no social support community? A great part of humanity is to be not just a mere self, but a self-in-community?

What if a large number of frozen people revive and present an intolerable burden upon the caseload of the society they return to?

What if the world is in very much worse straits than ever before? Water may be scarce and if we have not yet solved the problems of global warming, river depletion and climate change, the world may be overpopulated and more poor than before.

What if the financial portfolio set aside for the frozen person is looted and embezzled and the person wakes up poor?

What if there are mutations in various microorganisms and the revived person 's immune system has become naive? The person could rapidly succumb to illnesses
that he or she is no longer immune to.

What if some body cells tolerate suspended animation worse than others? The person could wake up with one or more malfunctioning organs. IF he or she also wakes up poor, getting medical care will be difficult if not impossible.

What if the language has changed so greatly that the revived person is no longer fluent and is stigmatized as being culturally out of synch?

What if the person has to go back to school for retraining? How will that be arranged?

What if the society the person wakes up in has changed so very greatly that he or she
doesnt want to live that way or finds he or she is subject to persecution for holding dissident beliefs?

Ben responds to cryogirl allegations - [www.network54.com] + slags off the Rick Ross Institute Forum Members!

"quote - The purpose of the "Cult Education Forum" is reportedly to investigate if cryonics is a cult. But from what I have seen the purported conclusion is really an assumption. A lynch mob is a kind of cult, and much of what is written there seems to be of a lynch-mob mentality"

NO not a lynch mob - just a collection of concerned invididuals with familys who think you are up to no good - The Ross institute has helped many many people deal with cults and abuse - People use this website and message boards to support each other and share information about dangerous cults. Some posters have been cult members previously and know only too well the damage that they can cause - If cryonics is being discussed here its because "we" think it is one - its not like theres a 51 page forum dicussion on cosmology or particle physics cults!

Anyways in his post -

He claims he IS a Pharmacist but hasn't practised for 23 years and that his name is real and not a extropian construct. Might be worth checking out if thats true - i don;t really buy it and i wouldn't know how to check if it was true. Surely he must still have his certificate - why not scan it in with your previous jobs in pharmacy so its not up for debate?
Melody Maxim's post at: [cryomedical.blogspot.com] is a good eye-opener on what his REAL Skillls are she doesnt buy it either!

Shame he doesn;t try and justify EST, LGAT or his other cult/commune backrounds - He also claims he is a "cryonics monk" and was not responsible for messing with Cryo-girls head - But that is bullshit you only have to read through his e-mails on the "cached" website to see that! Melody wont post it But I bloody will -- :)

- -[thecryonicscache.webs.com]


"quote - >
[...] told me that her husband was specifically hurt
> >>>>>>>>>> by her flirtatious behavior toward me. (Did you masturbate
> >>>>>>>>>> with her online?). As [...] described it, it was totally
> >>>>>>>>>> a matter of her flirtatious behavior with me that made
> >>>>>>>>>> [...] feel betrayed. Nothing you or I could do would
> >>>>>>>>>> make [...] feel betrayed, although he might become
> >>>>>>>>>> angry about our provocations.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for all you have expressed in your message.
> >>>>>>>>>> It has given me lots of new information & perspective
> >>>>>>>>>> on [...] & her husband, although much of it does
> >>>>>>>>>> not seem right. I don't believe for a minute that
> >>>>>>>>>> [...] is fucking around on [...].
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The only sexual complaints that [...] has made
> >>>>>>>>>> to me about her husband have been that his interest
> >>>>>>>>>> in sex is much less than hers. She has been pleased
> >>>>>>>>>> by his muscular strength and stamina. What do you
> >>>>>>>>>> make of this posting that [...] made to Cold
> >>>>>>>>>> Filter last February:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [www.network54.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [...] has had some bad experience with violence & abuse
> >>>>>>>>>> from her previous two husbands. She is blessed not to have
> >>>>>>>>>> to experience that stuff from [...]. [...]'s faults
> >>>>>>>>>> are more along the lines of being a prissy nerd. Although
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know what makes him so one-sided about oral sex.
> >>>>>>>>>> But from all that I have heard, [...] is a great father
> >>>>>>>>>> to [...]'s children, and that counts for a lot with her.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [...] and I have "flirted" about having sex some
> >>>>>>>>>> time in the future, which I have been imaging to
> >>>>>>>>>> be in about a hundred years. The distances between
> >>>>>>>>>> [...] and I are too great and I don't see them
> >>>>>>>>>> getting any less any time soon (I once offered to
> >>>>>>>>>> fly her to Michigan for a romp -- before she married
> >>>>>>>>>> [...].) I am committed to living in Michigan and
> >>>>>>>>>> being CI President. [...] loves having children
> >>>>>>>>>> and I am too much of a workaholic committed to my
> >>>>>>>>>> work to want the responsibility of children. I
> >>>>>>>>>> find it frustrating that [...] is not getting
> >>>>>>>>>> oral sex. I am fascinated and very turned-on by
> >>>>>>>>>> women's genitals, and one of the great frustrations
> >>>>>>>>>> of my life is that I have never been with a woman
> >>>>>>>>>> with whom I could master oral sex. I have this
> >>>>>>>>>> fear that cryonics may not work and that I will
> >>>>>>>>>> die without having achieved fulfillment in this
> >>>>>>>>>> regard. (This is NOT a flirtatious remark -- simply
> >>>>>>>>>> a boring fact about me.)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Love,
> >>>>>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>

Would a "monk" e-mail a married woman in this fashion? or is this him advertising his cunilingus skills to his "disciple" hoping she will take him up? - Sounds like he was trying to come across as a bit classier than Yount or Swank but he was BLATENTLY giving her the come on! He also seems to have a bit of a obsession with fellow scammer [...] -- Come on Ben (we know your reading this) - Come clean you dirty old bugger!

Its pretty obvious to me that he is getting a LOT of stick from his fellow cryonicists about his part in the cryo-girl scandal - probably the "shareholders" have asked him to explain himself publically. Well its not even a probably according to melodys blog - CI have known about this for some time and have hoped it will go away rather than dealing with it proffessionally.
Thing is - the cryogirl scandal isn't the only thing Best has been involved in recently - there is a lot more that hasn't been posted as its been difficult to prove with smoking gun evidence. The Cryonics Institute has been doing all sorts of dodgy marketing with cryogirl and as he is CEO he will know all about it.

Heres some of the cryogirl marketing lit:

- [www.cryonics.org] + [apps.detnews.com] + [www.scribd.com]

Probably the "best" thing Ben could do is to stand down as CEO and admit he messed up and did act inappropiately for a man of his position.
If he was a CEO of a legit company he would have already had to do so - Cryonics orgs make out they are legit medical company's and charity's - well could you see the CEO of something like BUPA or UNICEF being accused of this and keeping thier jobs - even if the allegations were untrue they would still stand down till they could actually prove otherwise rather than bring thier cause to disrepute.
To a outside observer (like myself) it makes cryonics organisations look like Joke organisations - they keep a Man at the Top even though its been proven they are "dirty" - maybe they want the other scandals to come out so they can blame Ben Best for that as well - and make out that they are cleaning up CI without that scammer [...]. I suppose we can only wait and see

tick tock tick tock...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2010 11:55PM by rrmoderator.

[www.network54.com]

After absolute silence on these new cryonics issues, from all of the usual suspects in cryonics, they all start to post again on these issues, on the same day?
New PR strategy?

No time to get into all the details right now, but they are trying the smear/distortion technique.

Obviously, as has been said OVER AND OVER in these thread, the cryonics groups are at this moment, obviously not a classical doomsday "cult" like Jonestown or something. They are picking out the "cult" word, and trying to use to distort the specific technical criticisms of their companies and groups.

There are certainly "cultish" aspects to some of those involved with cryonics, especially those involved with the Church of Venturism. They have even admitted they are trying to deceptively use religious impulses for Immortality to lure people into cryonics.
There have been reports of threats, death threats, euthanasia, and all of the other very serious concerns raised.

But the primary criticisms are about the deceptions, the financial swindles, manipulation, and tricks they are using to try and lure people into signing those cryonics documents.
As well as the dishonest "medical" absurdities as analyzed by Melody Maxim, and others.

So those who criticize cryonics, would be wise to continue to be very specific in each criticism. As can be found here and elsewhere.
Cryonics can be sliced and diced into its pieces, technical, financial scams, legal scams, antiscience medical quackery, persuasion/sales techniques, religious manipulation of emotions, using FEAR and intimidation to silence internal criticism, and the various other deceptions being used by the cryonics leaders who are running the show.


But if they are able to set up a Cryonicsville township, where they can avoid autopsies, and elderly people, and healthy people or children are being euthanized(murdered in the 1st degree) on a cryonics table, to get a better "cryonics suspension", by then its too late.
Again, they are the ones who have put forward that scenario as an ideal world for them. Its their dream to be able to do that to people. What "cult" is worse than that? Name one?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2010 05:35AM by The Anticult.

Maybe so

However - its not just the financial scam as you said before AC, there is the also some weird occult, head twisting stuff too.

Check this: [sites.google.com]


Thats right - using vampire cults to push cryonics -

you could NOT make it up...

The cryonics promoters want to "reframe" accurate criticism of cryonics, by distorting the criticism with the "cult" word.
The define the word "cult" into something else, then try to say they are not that.

In fact, there is plenty to criticize in cryonics, even before moving into the cultish areas of it.
But that being said, many cults are defined by DECEPTION, and EXPLOITATION of their members. And many cults also involve sexual exploitation, as well as financial exploitation.

On top of this, most people in any type of sect/cult, generally believe they are NOT in a sect/cult. If you ask them, you will often get hysterical laughter, and then pointing out that society is a "cult" and they are out of the cult, or whatever.
Then they will go through cult checklists, and reframe them, to say they are not in a cult.
At the same time pointing fingers at others for being in a cult.


From research so far, "cryonics" seems to be mainly a scam, and quackery, with a cultish fringe who have made cryonics their lifework, and believe in it like a futuristic new religious movement.
They use deception and personal exploitation, and fear/threats against their own members for speaking out.
The threats against those who speak out, are possibly the most damning aspects of the cultish cryonics groups.

It doesn't look like any rational person would disagree that using Vampirism hard-sell group-persuasion to market cryonics contracts, is well over the line of cultish behavior, if not worse.

Well, I researched cryonics and set up my trust due to the potential of the science, the legit bits of science. I own my trust, no cryonics organization owns it, it is set to give the 1/20th of my current life insurance policy to Alcor, the rest goes to my family and non-profits of my choice. I've been a long time La Leche League leader, and will be donating to breastfeeding research. I also have funds set aside for the United Nations Children's Fund. I'm sure I'll change the allocation of my trust over my life as I'm currently 35, there are other organizations I give to annually that are favorites.

Although I signed up because I see the potential of the science, I do not believe it will work. I think there is at best a 1% or 2% chance, but to me it is common sense to try it, won't make a difference otherwise. As I've followed the cryonics community over the past decade I've seen a lot of gossip, and at times errors by leadership. The reasons I think it won't work are that the businesses could go out of business, also the science may never be there--to restore, or scan etc. I've seen some disturbing things, such as all I found out in the past few months about leadership at ACS. I have plenty of emails showing I was being a friend to a woman who was excited about cryonics, promoting it and also liked to flirt with men & women. I shared details about my own past, and said that I thought some people might be interacting with her because they wanted to flirt, not that they were interested in cryonics. She had a hurtful background similar to mine, and I shared how I had overcome my own. I tried to be a positive role model, talking parenting, talk daily life stuff--things friends do. I did not realize that some in ACS leadership were manipulating her for sexy pictures by giving her money, nor where some of their money comes from. When she had said she was freaked out by someone "high up" (she didn't tell me at first who it was, but did a few weeks after it happened) -invited her to a three-way, I told her that it was inappropriate and that she could just talk to them about her trust, stick to the business matters. She was setting a trust up for her family that would be owned by ACS, she did not want to own the trust on her own. There are many messages where I said she could talk to people about cryonics without flirting, also what professional and non-professional behaviour was, particularly to the few ACS emails she did forward to me. The point is that I empathized with her, since being introduced by email in Nov of '10, was her friend and when she unexpectedly left her husband it was a surprise to me (I have many emails where she talks about loving him and being devoted to him, and agreeing with me that true love is wonderful, when I had gushed about my husband)--when she left her husband got into her email and found a bunch of creepy messages from some ACS leaders. He found indication that ACS had funded her leaving, he was understandably livid and started forwarding emails from her inbox. He forwarded all her recent emails till she regained her account, he had sent them to everyone on her contact list (this was March of this year right after she'd left, and they have been circulating ever since). Some of the emails were my private messages, some were hers to others (where she had presented a fantasy story of her creation, she had different stories/faces for different people), some of the emails were from other people--many of them people I've never communicated with (such as the ACS members). A few of the emails have been edited and posted, it is hard to figure out who sent what, who is talking to who--or what the time line is. I have more and have considered putting up some that I have to show a clearer picture, but I don't post people's emails without their position--which is why I'm posting here. I've seen this "Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???" thread before and always thought it would be fun to come discuss whether or not Cryonics is a cult. There certainly could be some elements. I really should read through all the pages though before I'd start into that discussion ;) none-the-less here I am because I was upset with how my name is up, in an email from someone else. I'm hoping Richie will take down the email that has speculated details from my marriage (yes my husband is awesome, I love him very much). I request that the site editors will remove my personal details at least.

There are a lot of great people in cryonics, and people working to make it better. I've never had any paid position, but I have volunteered. I've also volunteered in many other organizations such as LLL, UU churches, school PTAs and schools. One reason that I've not ever written in this thread is because I stay quite busy with my three children, just this evening I was helping my eldest with her Day of the Dead homework art project when an email came in asking if I'd seen this thread, providing a link. I had to wait a bit before I was able to come check it out. What I saw posted was speculation about my husband that I found hurtful and untrue, and not really germane to whether or not Cryonics is a cult--Temple of Vampire might be ;) I'm reading about that one right now, I'd heard a rumour before about some members being cryonicists and don't know if it is true or not. There are less than two thousand cryonicists, but there are Buddhists, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Atheists, UUs and others that I've not heard of. I don't know much about TOV it is a religion or philosophy, but as a UU I'm tolerant of other's beliefs and like to learn from them. The UU curriculums I've taught children with will look at all the tenets, the good things, the faith, and we discuss the things we would take, or leave. The classes are designed to teach children how to think and analyse for themselves. I'd have to learn more about TOV to see what their beliefs are. Anyway, since I'm here--I'll have to follow the thread and say why I don't think Alcor or CI are cults, when I get some time. Please at least edit my name out of the private email :)

By the way, I think the Rick Ross forum does some great work. Is there information on TOV? I've spent quite a while just now looking at the amount of resources here--great job overall!

I agree with Richie that there needs to be such a place to help people and their loved ones when they become involved with a cult, to get support, to get information. I'm a long time Skeptical Inquirer reader and just read the tribute issue to Martin Gardner (my kids love the current monster issue if you haven't seen it yet), one story was about he had helped a brother save his brother from a cult, by simply giving information (an article the brother had read was faxed from headquarters, and he shared it with his brother). I'm sure this forum has helped many people as well.