One thing I have been thinking about in relation to cults, or at least the one that I was in, is this whole "forced intimacy" thing. I remember the guru always ranting about how we had to learn to love each other. Yet the environment that was set up made true intimacy with any one in the group almost impossible. I spent a lot of time feeling guilty because I couldn't really "feel" love in such an abstract way. I mean, I LIKED most of them and felt if not warm towards them, at least benign. I didn't dislike any one and I didn't wish anyone harm. But I knew that deep down I didn't "love" them the way I love my freinds, my husband, the people in my life closest to me. There was this strange emotional inaccessability in the other members. I didn't feel CLOSE to them, but I was expected to somehow magically feel this outpouring of love for them. And I suppose in some way, on some higher, spiritual, abstract plane, I did. But none of them really CARED about me. For example, once I left, the leader told no one to contact me and no one did. I understand that they were brainwashed, but still, it drove home the weird artificialness of it all. I wanted someone to at least express concern.

I used to feel a lot guilt that I couldn't feel love for them. But then I realized that's just not something you can be bullied into. It was this huge forced intimacy and that is always hollow in the end. Also, I think this idea that you must love everyone and love them instantly, bypassing the whole time aspect and true emotional depth, and going straight to some universal unconditional love, is simply not realistic, nor even desireable. I don't WANT a bunch of people I don't know thinking they love me, unconditionally or otherwise. It's not real.

Anyone else have thoughts about this?

How was love defined?

I heard my naturopath speak to a group of people at which time he explained that the term "love" is misused and misunderstood. Love as the masses know it is romantic, made-in-Hollywood, warm fuzzy feeling and it's all about feeling great about what someone else finds warm and fuzzy about us.

He explained that true love is intelligent, from the Universe, that we all have it but unless we "lose our ego" we walk around feeling like separate sacks of skin with separate thoughts, feelings that are really stories about what we think is truth, blah, blah, blah.

I have heard, though, what you described, and see it in the catalogs of all the various new agey organizations I continue to get mail from (Omega, The Open Center). The course and seminar descriptions and photos are pretty nauseating. These places are always preaching that we are all one, no one is different from the next person, etc. It's a great way to allow any and all behavior, and to set blame for things that happen to the person(s) on the receiving end of bad behavior.

Eventually, after many years I realized that love, *trust* intimacy and forgiveness arise in response to certain conditions. They cannot be willed or produced on demand.

And, they most certainly cannot be produced in response to bullying and abuse!

IF a group or person demands love from you but has created an environment full of uncertainty, fear and anxiety you're being put in a 'no-win' situation.

My hunch is that love, trust, intimacy and forgiveness have these characteristics:

*Cannot be produced on demand. (A minister friend once said, 'You dont make flowers appear by screaming "Bloom damn it!" You have to provide water, food, sunlight, keep the plants free from weeds, then trust the plants to produce flowers according to their own natural process.')

* You cannot produce these three emotions in an atmosphere where people are constantly anxious because they're competing for the guru's approval or live in fear of being scolded or shunned

* You cannot produce love, intimacy or forgiveness if the guru or a small elite are constantly running sadistic games on lower ranking members and members you care about are constantly leaving (or being disciplined, scapegoated, or you're forbidden to form 'particular friendships')

*Tender emotions cannot flourish in social settings where the nice people are constantly leaving and the mean people are being promoted and rewarded.

*Where you're emotionally constricted because you're having to ignore bad behavior the occurs frequently in the group, or you're constantly anxious because you're being made to serve the group at the expense of your family, outside job and you're being financially pressured

* You're contantly kept overworked, emotionally, physically, with no time for unstructured play or nurturing solitude

***In short, when your own human dignity is constantly denigrated, you're in a situation where you're not feeling safe, and you're (appropriately!!!!) angry, anxious, afraid (states of mental emotional constriction)--how can you feel love (which is expansive?)

Finally, real love doesnt need to verbalize itself. If someone is constantly yapping about love---ask some questions, no matter how eloquent that person is.

***A Leader may be inspiring, even trigger bliss states, but personally be selfish and uncaring. (For examples read Prophetic Charisma by Len Oakes) Bliss and inspiration are not the same as being in love.

I heard someone suggest that the difference between love and ordinary obsessed infatuation is that when you're in love, you're rather shy and dont talk about it much. Wordiness spoils it.

But if youre obsessed/infatuated (which is a state of mental clinging), then you're likely to feel driven to talk, talk, talk because obsessions are 'high maintainance' and need lots of repetition to keep going. Infatuation prosyletizes.

Quote

A minister friend once said, 'You dont make flowers appear by screaming "Bloom damn it!" You have to provide water, food, sunlight, keep the plants free from weeds, then trust the plants to produce flowers according to their own natural process.'

That's exactly how I feel about freindship and love. It takes time and work and patience. In this group, everyone went around with these dopey smiles talking about Love, but it was just about feeling good about themselves; creating this false image of themselves of these wonderful, loving people. Not that they weren't in their own way. But there was no opportunity to develop the real intimacy that is required for me to feel love for someone. I simply don't relate to love in the abstract anymore, although I thought I did while I was in the group. But does it make your love any less valid, valuable or important that it needs certain conditions in which to exist? Somehow the guru's love was always the only "valid" love and anything that was emotion-based was bad, unworthy. But I can't just pull love out of my hat without some sort of emotional connection with a person.

I think what it boils down to is a boundary issue. It felt way too claustrophobic and manipulative to be told all the time about how much everybody in the group loved me. I felt beholden to them and inferior since I knew deep down I didn't love them back. Then it was used to guilt me. It was really very unpleasant.

that the guru's personality, needs and emotional life become the measure of all things in the group and everyone else's inner life is eclipsed.

(depending on the group, you can substitute 'pastor' 'minister' 'leader' etc for 'guru')

To use the language of psychotherapy, in a dysfunctional cultic group, the leader monopolizes all the adoration (aka 'positive transferance.') and claims responsiblity for [b:2d331fe829]all [/b:2d331fe829]success the group and its members have.

Any negative emotions or bad experiences are shoved off onto the members. Often one member is selected as the scapegoat/barf basin for the negativity that the guru and group refuse to acknowledge.

**Implication is that in any group where the leader is considered flawless, perfect, infallible, etc--that group is at high risk of scapegoating someone--and that person may, at some point, be you or someone you care about.

Because negative emotions are inevitable (esp when people are being abused!)--they have to go somewhere.

A cultic group only wants 'happy movies' on the projection screen.

In real spiritual groups or genuine therapy you can project sad movies as well as happy movies--and everyone is mature enough to deal.

In real psychotherapy, the therapist allows us to project not only idealizing transferance (adoration) but negative transferance, too (you're an uncaring hunk of shit, like my dad).

My therapist specializes in working with people who were traumatized, in many cases by their parents. So some of his clients alternate between adoring him and hating his guts, just the way we felt in relation to our parents. X helps clients re-experience all these scary emotions, then work them hrough--its his job. X is like a the owner of a good movie theatre--he provides the screen and the equipment and whatever movie you bring in, he'll help you 'screen it' so you can unpack it and get free from the story.

A bad guru is like the owner of a moview theatre who will only accept re-runs of [i:2d331fe829]'Bambi' [/i:2d331fe829]and will call the cops on you if you request a screening of [i:2d331fe829]Manchurian Candidate.[/i:2d331fe829]

So thats the difference between real psychotherapy and a bad guru.

A real therapist can deal with you hating his guts--he's delighted you feel safe enough to get mad at him, because thats a growth opportunity for you and he has his own needs met outside the counseling session.

A bad guru only wants you to adore him and will find ways to punish you if you dare to unpleasant emotions--because the guru is needy and wants you to nurture him. (ditto for bad therapists).

And getting back to love--it cannot exist in a controlled, artificial social setting that censors emotions and only permits re-runs of [i:2d331fe829]'Bambi' [/i:2d331fe829]or [i:2d331fe829]'Super-Guru'[/i:2d331fe829]

This is really interesting. A lot of it is over my head but interesting! :roll: :wink:

Does anyone hear know about, or had experience r.e. an LGAT called "The Miracle of Love"? Lots of aritifical intimacy..
tx

Gi, Yes, I have heard of MOL, based in Hawaii, San Diego, near San Fran., and Germany (and who knows where else). My son has recently been "hijacked" by this group. Long story short: he wanted to borrow $$, so MOL made it "easy" to borrow: no terms of repayment, no interest, no IOU etc. He's now indebted to them but they convinced him they're all 'just friends'.

This group fits right in w/ the 'artifical intimacy' aspect.

For benefit of others, here's a rundown I what I've found out; please add to/correct!!

"Guru" was David Swanson aka Lord Gourasa, his widow Kalindi and a woman called "The Lady" (Gayle) now run the group. Nearly all the writings and quotations are from Kalindi, not much (a book of manuscripts) from Swanson.

There is a daughter, about 24 yr, who is variously described as a former EMT, stripper, bar worker. She has not attended college She is supposedly a native of San Diego; trying to verify all that. We were able to find out some other details re daughter.

The group is very wealthy; young adult members are to give $$ (abstract, undisclosed amount or percent at first, the purpose of which is vague($50++++ for a college student is a lot of $). altho they usually target wealthy folks, it seems they think he'll be potential for earning the kind of $$ they want (and gullible to give it to them).

Cannot find out any info on Swanson, Kalindi, Kalindi's first husband, and The Lady; it seems they changed names but still trying to find out. Don't know which STATE of the US to loook in; the time frame would be 1995 anyway.

In the past, the have recruited members in adulthood; they recently changed marketing strategies to target young adults (18-29 yr) *AND* also disturbing, are developing a program to target younger children.

Their philosopy is that one can only get closer to God via Kalindi, being 'open' to God, learning always more about all that, etc. Amazon.com and www.miracleoflove.com have details of their philosophy.

Their first outreach appears to be their "intenstive" which is very stern at first, including an 11 page disclosure of intimate, personal info (past hurts, abuses, anger, family info), AND several pages of confidentiality agreements. Yet, pre-members also are made to sign a statement that they agree the MOL can use the member's personal info in any way it chooses.

They start with just "being friends," doing group activities i.e. beach, which seems to evolve into group sex, encouraged by Kalindi's philosophy. Each new member is given a "helper/friend" after the Intensive to assist w/ transition to new life etc., and to keep the newbie from bolting.

They have occasional nationa-wide conference calls inwhich members give testimonials; members had to be prodded into giving testimonials, which seemed rehearsed and awkward. I wish I knew when the next one would be; I read a posting by a woman dated *two years ago.* She said they were made to wait 20-30 minutes; we waited 35 min. She said the MOL people were disorganized; we could hear them whispering on their speakerphone about who would answer which question etc. Very amaturish. One prospective member, at the end, asked which form of meditation does MOL use; the reply was "It depends on what you want" The lady persisted, but after several tries, never did get a reasonable answer.

Again, this is part of what I've been able to find out; Like Gi, I would appreciate knowing anything else.

Thanks --s.

I need help to decifer what I should be doing re my son's recently joining Miracle of Love: do I travel out there (he's very logically-trained), and we 've been able to thus far discuss everything logically.

Do I do nothing and hope he'll walk away? My husband thinks I'm just being overly concerned and think two + mo is better time to go there.

Do I find an exit counselor-person to act now?

Do I spend my days finding websites looking for info?

I don't find any info on what to do on the short term -- immediate actions to take, what to do/no, what to say/not etc. (other thnan being neutral and nonjudemental etc.)

Thanks very much --

See [www.culteducation.com]

You might follow "Coping Strategies" and consider intervention.

I have received serious complaints from families and former members about Miracle of Love and consider the group potentially unsafe.