One thing I'm not clear on here - earlier you suggested Shamarpa wasn't a pushover and that he should stand up to Nydahl, withdraw his support etc., but from what you've written here it seems that a consequence of this is that he withdraw his 'claim to the throne' too. While we may see that as Shamar's personal ambition, I'm certain Shamarpa believes he is trying to do what is best for the Kagyu lineage - it would seem that he is currently caught between a rock and a hard place in that respect. Are you suggesting that by withdrawing his support for DWB that Shamarpa himself should simply admit defeat and retire gracefully?

After the experience of Spain I told, right yesterday, with one of the monks of Shamarpa, asked for explanations of Ole. He told me that Ole manages to capture the younger people who never otherwise would not come to Buddhism. In fact, in Spain there were many young people (25-35) and especially Eastern Europe. Now young east people can travel and be free, so a teacher who drank (now Ole can not drink,I don't know whether for health or because someone has forgotten him.... from the upper floors!), has many women (in spain was very obvious), captures a mass of young people that Buddhism not normal capture. Young people who would probably pass lost in the common life. I can confirm this because I saw with my eyes. But I really think that the Karmapa amministrator and Shamarpa want to increase their real estate and money. Karma Guen has been donated to the Karmapa and has a value of about Euro 2,000,000.00. Do you really think that the Karmapa and Shamarpa can let go so Ole with all its centers and its assets? I suggest you to think aabout this : In Spain I ask to the main travelling teacher - "what does it happen if Ole died?. There is someone who can take his place and teach Vajariana pure Buddism?" Nobody aswered me accept this. "Ole can live 20 years more. No problem. Maybe Ole already thinking about that. Is not pur problem." It seems that Ole did not transmit his knowledge to anyone. No one can practice Powa except him. The only teacher is Ole.

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karam-mudra
An interesting information about Urgen Trinley:

Yes, local Himachal Pradesh politicos trying to make a name for themselves. Pity you did not see fit to also include the following the following:

[www.thenational.ae]

"India drops criminal charges against the Karmapa Lama

Agence France-Presse
Apr 24, 2012

NEW DELHI // Indian officials dropped all criminal charges yesterday against a top Tibetan Buddhist monk seen as a potential successor to the Dalai Lama.
Related

Police in the northern state of Himachal Pradesh filed conspiracy charges against the Karmapa Lama last December, after authorities found more than Dh3.67 million (US$1 million) in foreign cash, including Chinese yuan, stashed in his monastery.

The discovery led to allegations in the Indian media — vigorously denied by the 26-year-old Karmapa — that he was a Chinese spy.

"We have decided to drop all criminal charges against the Karmapa," state Home Office official, SP Singh, said.

"The police and the government lawyers thoroughly investigated all the charges and found no real evidence to pursue a case against him."

The Karmapa, Urgyen Trinley, is revered by his followers as the 17th incarnation of the head of the Karma Kagyu lineage, one of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

He fled Tibet in 1999 at 14, reaching India after a perilous eight-day winter journey by foot and horseback over the Himalayas.

Since fleeing Tibet, he has mainly lived at the Gyuto Monastery in Dharamshala, the northern Indian hill station that is the seat of the Tibetan government in exile."


What, by the way, has this got to do with Ole Nydahl? As I think I said before not Tibetan Lamas are like Ole.

just went through some of the posts. I have a question?
Warrenz are you trolling? it looks to me you are trying to swing the topic from Ole and DW to "Shamarpa is not honest man" topic.
Many people who met Shamar Rimpoche have deep respect ant trust in him. May be sometimes he comes out a bit business like but that his teaching style very much Contrary to Ole. I understand you are Chineese Karmapa supporter and that is ok but please try not to go off topic here.

warrenz,

I was referring to your sentences:

As Ogyen Trinley looks increasing like taking on the role of the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people in the period between this Dalai Lama and the next, Shamar's claim to have found the true Karmapa is looking less credible all the time. Shamar needs all the support he can get.

And here one more interesting article referring your suggestion:


[downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de]


You seem to bring in a piece of the funny Karmapa-controversy, so I posted the articles. I don´t care for both of them.

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suenam
One thing I'm not clear on here - earlier you suggested Shamarpa wasn't a pushover and that he should stand up to Nydahl, withdraw his support etc., but from what you've written here it seems that a consequence of this is that he withdraw his 'claim to the throne' too. While we may see that as Shamar's personal ambition, I'm certain Shamarpa believes he is trying to do what is best for the Kagyu lineage - it would seem that he is currently caught between a rock and a hard place in that respect. Are you suggesting that by withdrawing his support for DWB that Shamarpa himself should simply admit defeat and retire gracefully?

The split in the Karma Kagyu lineage is irrevocable - it has gone on for too long. Shamar will never back down and retire gracefully. He believes that he has sole right to run the lineage and is furious that not many other people agree with him. I think he should withdraw his support from Nydahl because it is the right thing to do. Ole's behavior goes against so many tenets not just of Buddhism but normal decent human interaction that supporting him should be unthinkable for a lama.

If Shamar cannot do the right thing then it only adds fuel to the claims of his critics that he is more interested in his own position and the enrichment of his family. Indeed the Karmapa controversy can be interpreted as an attempt by members of the 16th Karmapa's family to take control of the institution - historically this kind of situation is far from unusual in the tulku system when the position passes from one reincarnation to the next . Members of the previous teacher's family suddenly see themselves as no longer in favored positions and seek to ensure that they can stay on the gravy train.

Going forward though, I think DW will shrink and become much less significant after Ole dies. A small rump of supporters will stay loyal to Thaye Dorje but the Ole fans will move on to another rock'n'roll guru. After the Dalai Lama's death and the elevation by popular acclaim of Ugyen Trinlay to the role of Tibetan figure head (something, BTW, I think is probably a very bad idea but unavoidable), Ugyen Trinlay will become a major world figure and Thaye Dorje's support will dwindle everywhere except perhaps mainland China where the Chinese will probably try to use him against the Tibetan people (hopefully unsuccessfully). Thaye Dorje will never wear the black hat since he is so unpopular in Sikkim he cannot go to Rumtek. Ugyen Trinlay may not get to wear it either since the Indians may fear his presence in Sikkim would destabilize the region / provoke the Chinese - plus each side will try to tie the hold thing up in court for decades if it suits them to do so. I think Thaye Dorje should come out of Shamar's shadow. I get the impression he is not really calling the shots. Unlike the other wing where Ugyen Trinlay is in full control and Situ and Gyaltsap have very much taken a back seat in recent years. If he does not he will have a tough time when Shamar goes getting any recognition. Unless Ugyen Trinlay were to suddenly renounce the title, Thaye Dorje can only look forward to a future of increasing obscurity.

But, to get back to the topic, as I have said several times before, Shamar and Thaye Dorje have the power to put Ole out of business - more than anyone else. That they choose not to is very sad and only impairs their reputations.

I’d just like to comment on a few points raised by Carlitos.

“I asked the DW Center's members. They told me that travel costs was paid from the Centers alla around the word. They pointed out that Ole has nothing, (no house, no cars, no money) and gives everything to the European Centre.”

As far as I know it is true that the centres pay Ole’s travel costs and when I travelled with him he flew in economy with the rest of us. I do remember asking a similar question to yours several times and I was told that Ole receives a “small wage” for his work. I also seem to recall that Ole has a large house in Denmark somewhere but it’s been so long now since I discussed these matters I can’t be 100% sure. So, as for Nydahl having no money and no home it just isn’t true. Remember he probably pays maintenance for the children he has fathered. I was told he has children but no-one would give me the full details.

I attended five Phowa course in Karma Guen and I never manifested the sign. My ex-friends from the centre told me I did so I asked them to take pictures so I could see the sign (I’m bald so it should be easy to spot). The photographs showed nothing. Having said this I do feel that I benefited greatly from the Phowa but I couldn’t tell you exactly how. Perhaps the discipline to meditate for 9 hours a day for 5 days was beneficial. Anyway, this is why I did 5 courses. Not for the sign but for the meditation focus. I looked for the sign on others several times and saw nothing also. I was told this was because I wasn’t qualified to see a small blood blister on someone’s head …

”When I informed that in September I went to visit a center of Shamar Rinpoche, near the city where I live, they informed me that I could go but I had to choose whether to practice with a Ole's center or a center of Shamarpa. At this point, I said they were too sectarian and I am gone.”

This was the reason I was “asked” to leave the Liverpool centre. I regarded Shamarpa and Karmapa as my root teachers so the leader told me to take my practice “somewhere else”. I totally agree with you, they are too sectarian. Interestingly I spoke with the nice couple who run the Newcastle Centre and they expressed their surprise that I had been told that I must have Nydahl as my root lama or leave. They said they were going to raise the issue with the London Centre (I guess that means Steve James and Daffyd Morris) but I have no idea if they did. Anyway, I never received any feedback from them.

”In Spain I ask to the main travelling teacher - "what does it happen if Ole died?. There is someone who can take his place and teach Vajariana pure Buddism?" Nobody aswered me accept this. "Ole can live 20 years more. No problem. Maybe Ole already thinking about that. Is not pur problem." It seems that Ole did not transmit his knowledge to anyone. No one can practice Powa except him. The only teacher is Ole.”

I was told that Caty Hartung would receive the transmission or even Tomek Lehnert (but this was before Tomek took a break from active DWB activities). I was also told that DWB are Nydahl’s centres and that it was unlikely that they would be passed over to Karmapa (or Shamarpa) on the basis that Tibetan’s financial knowledge is a little naive and they couldn’t trust them with what Nydahl had built up.

I’m sorry to hear about your experience but thanks for posting them so people can be better informed.

Steve

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dariusb
just went through some of the posts. I have a question?
Warrenz are you trolling? it looks to me you are trying to swing the topic from Ole and DW to "Shamarpa is not honest man" topic.
Many people who met Shamar Rimpoche have deep respect ant trust in him. May be sometimes he comes out a bit business like but that his teaching style very much Contrary to Ole. I understand you are Chineese Karmapa supporter and that is ok but please try not to go off topic here.

Seriously Dariusb I do not want to shift the emphasis but you should realise that Shamar's clear support for Ole enables his behavior. If he did not support him, Ole would not be able to continue as easily as he does. I can understand it is difficult to see these criticisms of Shamar but I cannot see how his support for Ole can be reasonably defended.

Also I would like to as you not to use the term "Chinese Karmapa" for Ugyen Trinlay. He escaped from Chinese oppression in Tibet. Were he to return he would be arrested and disappeared. Thaye Dorje seems able to visit Hong Kong regularly with impunity. I wish Ugyen Trinley were as welcome in China.

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SteveLpool
I was told that Caty Hartung would receive the transmission or even Tomek Lehnert (but this was before Tomek took a break from active DWB activities). I was also told that DWB are Nydahl’s centres and that it was unlikely that they would be passed over to Karmapa (or Shamarpa) on the basis that Tibetan’s financial knowledge is a little naive and they couldn’t trust them with what Nydahl had built up.

I think I remember hearing something similar. Perhaps on this forum. DW never seemed to be entirely at home with the Tibetans (another expression of the vein of xenophobia that runs through the organization). Does Caty Hartung have Ole's charisma? I think whoever would take DW over would have to have something of the Ole magic. I suppose as the "great man's" ex-mistress she is the logical successor after the passing of the saintly Hannah (and I mean no sarcasm here - she must have been a saint to put up with Ole's philandering). One of the things that gives me hope with regard to DW is that nobody can really replace Ole. Once he goes the whole thing will wither away. Same goes for other organizations like the NKT that are built around a single leader of almost mythical status. Once they go their lieutenants look like pale imitations. Also let's not discount the possibility of a power struggle among Ole's inner circle if he does not hand over the crown officially before he dies. That could have very unpleasant consequences. A take over by Thaye Dorje is probably the best outcome for ordinary DW members - even if it represents a radical shift in style.

Someone once asked (on another forum I think) if Ole's tulku might not be sought. I think he has indicated in the past that his reincarnation would be found as a naughty boy who was always looking up girls skirts (or some such similar nonsense). I hope his reincarnation is found and she is child from Africa!

my apologies for going of topic a bit.
warrenz, the reason i called Ugyen Trinlay a "Chinese Karmapa" just because He is recognised as "Leaving Buddha" by Chinese government.[en.wikipedia.org] .
If everything to take on face value than let's take Ole vs Shamarpa.
1) Shamarpa does not teach vajrayana to western people he clearly can see that it is unsafe for us.
Ole can not see that. Why? because he enjoys his status as the leader of a cult.
2) knowing the history of Shamarpas lineage it is not surprising that he ends up almost on his own. [en.wikipedia.org]
Ole does not have a history of reincarnations neither he can be banned by gelugpas He does not belong to tibetan culture.
3) OLe clearly mixes Buddhism with politics.
Shamarpa does not.
4) Shamarpa has got proper Buddhist scholar education.
Ole does not have one.


I remember growing up in nineteen nineties in Eastern Europe, there were so many different gurus and preachers all sorts coming over to pull people to their religion and funny enough that was when Ole started to build his "army" in ex eastern bloc.

I hope his reincarnation is found and she is child from Africa!


Well said, Warrenz.