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Can Sufism be Deislamicized -- online discussion
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 21, 2014 06:40AM

(Small excerpt of an online discussion)

Yes, there needs to be a connection via an authentic lineage of
sufimasters for an authentic transmission of this form of religious
mysticism (which I found to be the most beautiful one of all),
and the origin of the lineage is the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace
of God be upon him). Whoever denies this may be an authentic mystic,
but not an authentic sufi.

Therefore, whoever remains convinced that
sufism is independent of Islam and defers to the authority of
(often eloquent and persuasive) proponents of non-Islamic sufism
(such as Hz. Inayat Khan, Meher Baba, Idries Shah, John Bennett,
Rajneesh, Irina Tweedie, Reshad Feild, and others) is involved with
something which is a mixture of sufi teachings/practices, yoga,
and various esoteric-occult teachings-- and is really a kind of theosophy.

I'm nots aying that someone on such a path cannot become a developed
mystic,just that it's not the path of the form of religious
mysticm known as sufism.

No one who knows anything about Judaism would accept that
Hassidic mysticism could be something separate from Judaism. Yet
people readily accept the idea that sufism is separate from Islam.

(End of small excerpt)


(Quote)Info requested about Sufism
Showing 1-4 of 4 messages Info requested about Sufism Sufison 10/11/99 12:00 AM Last week I attended an intro session regarding Sufism as it was
brought to the western world via Hazrat Inayat Khan, and now managed by
his son Pir Vilayat. Prior to this, my only knowledge of Sufism
consisted on Rumi and Nasrudden, as well as other historical studies
regarding this wonderful way Home.

I have a few questions regarding this westernized Sufism, and hope
someone will bring a measure of enlightenment to my inquiries. I have
been drawn to the Sufi path all my life, and until recently was not
aware of the current activities seemingly designed for non-Moslem
seekers. Eventhough I am excited to learn of this outer and active
path, I am eager to hear any opinions or insights that might confirm or
clarify what I've learned of this so far.

1. Is there any conflict between the original Islamic Sufi path and the
teachings of Hazrat and Pir Vilayet Khan, and if so, what specific
contrasts exist? In other words, if I choose to actively pursue the
form of Sufism Khan promotes, will I be immersing myself in the same
body of water that Rumi so eloquently expresses when he speaks of the
Friend, and of the Beloved?

2. I understand that there are four Circles (Gatha, Githa, San Gatha
and San Githa) that a mureed (initiate) should pass through. Are there
fees involved? It is fair to charge for retreats, I believe,
considering the costs involved, but are there dues or initiation costs
to move from one circle to the next?

3. Is there a legitimate lineage of Sufi Masters, or is one needed for
validity's sake? Hazrat Khan states that Sufism is "the religion of
the heart, the religion in which the thing of primary importance is to
seek God in the heart of humanity." These words strike at the bullseye
of the Lover's heart for me, as I am not as concerned about any
Master's pedigree as I am in seeing and recognizing God in the smallest
of things. I just wonder if there is any importance focused on
legitimate lineage in Sufism, and what documentation supports this, if
it is an issue.

The reason for these questions stems from a rather unpleasant
experience I was blessed to have after being an initiate of a
westernized form of eastern esotericism for fifteen years before
discovering that the founder of this specific path had plaigerized
a vast majority of his source information.

Instead of honestly revealing the fountainhead of his insights,
this westerner claimed the words as his own, thus disillusion
ing me to his possible motivations. Naturally I am hesitant to
jump into new waters until I am reasonable sure the
source has not been filtered for profit or ego's sake.

I am sincere in my desire to follow the way of the Lover, and have only
gratitude toward the fire that has been sparked from Rumi's sweet
words. I hope these questions don't appear skeptical, but instead come
from sincerity.

Thank you for your patience and time regarding this article.

Much love,

Posted via Talkway - []
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).

Info requested about Sufism Ibrahim Gamard 10/14/99 12:00 AM Dear Jay,
You asked advice about Westernized forms of sufism. Most sufi
groups in America with American-born members are non-Islamic, and
strongly assert that sufism is a universal form of mysticism which is
thousands of years old and is not bound to any particular religion. I was
involved in some of these kinds of sufism for 13 years and gained a
great deal, especially from zikr/chanting (spiritual-experiential),
of books about sufism, sufi masters and sufi classics in translation
(spiritual-intellectual), and following a path of service jobwise
(spiritual-practical). During those years I viewed Islam as "mere
exotericism," and prided myself as wanting only the essence of
spirituality, which I assumed was completely "esoteric" and beyond
form. But after becoming friends with an American who studied with a
sufi master in the Sudan and then studied Islamic law in Mecca, I
realized that if I wanted to go deeper on the dervish path, I would have
to commit myself to the basic practices of Islam (the five daily prayers,
fasting the daylight hours of the month of Ramadan, and annual charity
to the poor). By then I realized that 99+% of all dervishes in history
have been sincere Muslims (the rest were in fringe groups, or in India
where traditions tend to become mixed). I converted to Islam in 1984,
stopped attending non-Islamic sufi groups, and went only to Islamic
zikr groups. I've also taken a number of initiations (Naqshbandi and
Mevlevi). After setting myself firmly on the path of religious
mysticism, my understanding of sufism reached new levels. I came to
respect "inspired forms" as precious containers for the "wine" of
spirituality. An example of this was that I fell in love with the Islamic
prayers-- prostrating before the Presence of God became (and has
remained) very peaceful and purifying, and a great source of solace and
faith in the Benevolence of the Friend.

The poetry of Rumi and the sufi order which follows his teachings
(the Mevlevi sufi order) was the door for me. My wife and I were
among the first Americans trained to do the Mevlevi "whirling prayer"
in 1975 (and we haven't stopped). We went to Rumi's tomb in Konya,
Turkey, in 1977 and were deeply affected by the "perfume" of Divine
Love present there. Then we went to India, where I took initiation from
a Qadiri-Chisti Muslim sufi teacher. Yet I still resisted learning more
about Islam for another seven years. About 1980, I began teaching
myself classical Persian so I could read Rumi's poetry in the original.

The main sufi orders which are open to accepting non-Muslim
disciples are the Mevlevi and the Chisti orders. Mevlevi activity in
America has been so "adapted" to the West that it's only during the past
few years that the Islamic roots of the Mevlevi tradition of Rumi have
begun to be appreciated.

Chisti activity in America was adapted to the West by Hz. Inayat
Khan (since 1917) and almost completely de-Islamicized. His son, Pir
Vilayat, has developed this still further so that this movement is even
farther from its roots. For example, he claimed many years ago (in
"Toward The One") that sufism comes from the ancient Greek
mystery religions. He is expected to retire soon, and his designated
successor, his son Zia Inayat Khan, has spent years studying the
origins of his grandfather's teaching, has been studying classical
Persian and Arabic in graduate school, practices Islam, and married a
Muslim woman from India (with whom he now has a baby daughter).
It is anticipated that he will eventually point the way toward a more
authentic form of Chisti sufism-- hopefully, in such a way that people
who have been members for years will not be unneccesarily alienated.
I have not myself ever been a member of this movement, so I do not
know about the various levels, fees, etc. But I can tell you that a lot of

the terminology and practices have been skewed and mangled from their
traditional sufi usage. The term "Gatha" which you mentioned as a
word for levels is not an original sufi term, but is a new use of the name

for certain Zoroastrian scriptures. (Hz. Inayat Khan wrote a book of
mystical sayings called "Gathas" also.)

Yes, there needs to be a connection via an authentic lineage of sufi
masters for an authentic transmission of this form of religious
mysticism (which I found to be the most beautiful one of all), and the
origin of the lineage is the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace of God
be upon him). Whoever denies this may be an authentic mystic, but not
an authentic sufi. Therefore, whoever remains convinced that sufism is
independent of Islam and defers to the authority of (often eloquent and
persuasive) proponents of non-Islamic sufism (such as Hz. Inayat
Khan, Meher Baba, Idries Shah, John Bennett, Rajneesh, Irina
Tweedie, Reshad Feild, and others) is involved with something which
is a mixture of sufi teachings/practices, yoga, and various
esoteric-occult teachings-- and is really a kind of theosophy. I'm not
saying that someone on such a path cannot become a developed mystic,
just that it's not the path of the form of religious mysticm known as
sufism. No one who knows anything about Judaism would accept that
Hassidic mysticism could be something separate from Judaism. Yet
people readily accept the idea that sufism is separate from Islam.
This is because of the ignorance about, and negative prejudice toward,
Islam. It is also because sufi teachings have been adapted to the West
along the same pattern as Zen meditation and Yoga: Westerners have
been encouraged that they can attain spiritual growth by doing essential
practices of Zen, Yoga, as well as Sufism without needing to convert or
get involved with priests, temples, or mosques.

I was so impressed by the poem you posted on this newsgroups,
entitled "Rumi's Dance"


that I would encourage you to immerse yourself in the sufi path-- and
welcome you! You could perhaps gain much from joining a local Pir
Vilayat group, and that could be a good entry point. I only advise you
not to close your mind to the possibility that the deeper sufi "treasures"

involve a more religious path of approaching nearness to God, the Only
Beloved. You can take initiation for blessing only (ask for "ba'yatu
tabarrukah" = taking hand for baraka/blessing) from any sufi teacher. You
can also take initiation for joining a particular sufi lineage ("ba'yatu
t-tareeqah"), which obviously involves serious committment. You can also
join more than one sufi order at the same time (despite what many may
tell you). There is a level of corruption among sufi teachers comparable
to that of teachers in other mystical traditions, but what is received
through the lineage ("silsilah," or chain of transmission) is pure.

You cannot understand Rumi unless you understand the
Islamic-religious meanings which poured forth from within his spirit
(as much as more universal-sounding teachings, such as about the
"Religion of the lovers," which also poured out). Seeking "God inside"
is often a way of resisting/denying the need for prayer and worship
("God outside"). This can lead to forms of mysticism known as
pantheism ("Everything is Divine") or occultism ("There is no divinity
but Man"-- the "divinized/superhuman" Magus/Master). Someone who
develops a rich mystical life in this direction may become even more
resistant to worship ("Since All is One, there is nothing outside of
so why should I pray?"). Islamic sufism is strictly God-centered
("There is no divinity but God"), but has a balanced understanding that
God is both imminent in creation (within the heart) as well as
(beyond human understanding and control) and worthy of eternal

I understand that you were previously involved in a Western esoteric
movement which (unknown to most of its members) has its roots in an
offshoot from Sikhism (the teachings of Kirpal Singh).There has long
been a deep love of Persian mystical poetry among many involved in, or
influenced by, Sikhism. It's clear that you've got "hooked" on Rumi's
poetry, and so I wish you the best in your spiritual journey.

For further information on sufism and sufi orders, I recommend the
webpage and links provided by my friend Abdul-Haqq/Professor Alan
Godlas, "Sufism's Many Paths":


May the peace and blessings of God be upon you,

Ibrahim Gamard

Info requested about Sufism siraj 10/15/99 12:00 AM Friends,
I agree with most of what Ibrahim so clearly expressed. In regard to the
following of more than one shaykh and order I disagree (but of course I
respect his opinions). In my opinion for people in the West it is better
to show some discipline and stick (after a period of orientation) to the
path found. Otherwise you may dig a little here and a little there and
at the end may have found nothing.
An addition: The Chishtiyya order, in its authentic shape, has also its
representatives in the West. It is true that the Chishtis are open to
non-Muslims and initiate non-Muslims and do not demand that you become a
Muslim I believe that real progress is only possible by combining the
esoteric and exoteric in a balanced way. Both have their own use. But
this has already been clearly expressed by Ibrahim.

Info requested about Sufism Sufison 10/21/99 12:00 AM Dear Ibrahim,
Thank you tremendously for sharing your wisdom and knowledge! Indeed,
the Sufi group I've discovered here (Kalamazoo, MI) must be of the
Chisti order, as Hazrat Inayet Khan is quoted from quite often.
Keeping quiet and listening to the others (as Rumi advises - much more
is learned in silence than in making 'noise', and I try to practice
silence whenever possible as I've already mastered the art of
noise<g>), I have heard mention of Zia Inayet Khan and the impending
changes that will come with his succession, and while there were some
worried murmurs, my heart took wings and soared! It is as if I were
born with a prayer rug rolled up under my arm, and my life has been a
gradual awakening of this dream-practiced rite of kneeling and touching
my forehead to the very spot where the intricate weavings reveal a
diagram of the prison-cell's lock. Like a babe learning how to speak,
new words stumble out hesitantly and jumbled, and I pray those
listening understand the original language coming from a heart full of

Many years ago I heard the phrase, "God's dream is our reality", and I
leaned on it throughout all my drunken weavings toward the Friend's
threshold. Now that I stand before it and peer with blurry, life-tired
eyes at the words over the door: "There is only one reality - God",
everything is transformed: Water becomes fire and fire water; nothing
makes sense any more, and the most familiar voice whispers, "Good, now
you're senseless! Knock on the door!" When the Beloved asks, "Who is
there?", may I have the remembrance to say, "It is thou!"

Yes, Rumi has been my gentle guide through his love-sighs, and I am the
one having just vomited out the snake and rotten apples. I try to
express that which is felt, and nothing but gibberish like this spews
out. Yes, yes, yes! The door leading into heaven is the shape of my
prostrate body - no higher. You see what the Friend's wine has done to
me? My heart has stretched beyond repair, and I am left babbling,
pounding on this drumhead like a fool!<g>

Thank you, dear one.


My drumhead: Song of Soul


Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2015 10:42PM by corboy.

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Was This What You Wanted When You Started?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 24, 2014 11:01PM

Was This What You Wanted When You Started?

Sometimes you can only learn the actual nature of
a group by disagreeing.

It can take several years of active discipleship before
you learn what the unspoken rules consist of.

And you have every right to itemize those unspoken
rules and ask whether you agree with those
rules and want to live by them.

See what happens when you or others have disagreed.

Do they get demoted, disgraced -- or do they disappear?

Are you paying more in money and time
now than when you started?

If you come upon a group of senior members, do
they abruptly go silent when they realize you have
approached? Do you get reprimanded?

If the leader is ill, are you all told that negative
thinking is causing bad energy that is making the leader
ill? This is a form of guilt tripping?

Does the leader yell or scold and this is claimed to be
enlightened activity and never to be questioned?

(Your indoctrinated mind may believe this. But your human
body will experience this as tension, and feel it as
abuse. )

Do you begin to catch on that most members of your group
appear to have a similar background -- abused as children,
adopted or rejected by birth parents, born into families
of alcoholic, addicted or mentally ill parents?

And that prevalence of this kind of background in your
group is far higher than the national average?

If most of you are from backgrounds with rageful, addicted,
secret ridden families, you've already been pre-formatted
to rationalize suffering and ignore your own needs.

Dare to wonder if perhaps this, rather than spiritual aptitude,
is why you were selected for recruitment. In a group of
'adult children' the whim ridden leader is the step in for
the unpredictable parent.

Being a child-caregiver for an unpredictable parent may
prepare you to become a leader's care provider

Keeping secrets for your family may train you unconsciously
to find this a familiar role in a secret ridden, tension ridden

Does the group subtly reward you for reframing your family background
as much worse than it actually was, so as to cut you off entirely
from the good parts of your family heritage?

Are there a lot of places in the sect compound you are forbidden
to enter, persons not to be mentioned, stuff you are forbidden
to read because 'you are not ready'?

Are you free to visit your friends or fellow members if they are
hospitalized or sick at home? Or are you forbidden to do so,
and they can only be visited by designed members of the sect?

If you can visit your ailing friends, can you speak with them
privately, or is there a minder from your sect always hovering
in the room?

If people disappear or leave, are you free to ask, or do you
learn that comings and goings and disappearances are never
to be spoken of?

This item is not a good sign. Some day you might break
some rule you are not told of and suddenly join the ranks
of the disappeared.

Beware of any group where there is shunning, or where some
members are said to be ‘in silence’ and must not
be spoken of or spoken to. If you sense someone hungers to be
spoken with, find a way to meet with them in private.

Perhaps the person is being pressured to give up and leave,
and a lie is being spread that they are in some spiritual
practice that demands that others not speak to them, when what
is actually being orchestrated is to keep them shunned, so that
they give up and leave – and worst of all, assume they are at
fault and beyond redemption.

Are some shunned members invited back after they've done
some sort of penance, groveled enough? Are you forbidden
to socialize with these returnees? Or only when a minder
is present?

The group may have a code for people who join, concealing
that they were recruited:

"So and so invited himself."

A group may have a euphemism for people who have been kicked out,
concealing that the group has unspoken rules and crully punishes
those who break those rules.

They may claim "So and so dis - invited himself."

Any group, whether it calls itself sufi or not, that does this is
practicing cruelty.

If you see someone being singled out, for isolation, meet his or
her eye. If you see a suffering human being gaze right back at you,
arrange a private meeting in a safe place.

This is when G-d works through people!

Last but not least, in the midst of this, do you find
yourself feeling lonely?

Are you kept so busy that you barely have time to breathe
or get enough sleep?

Are you increasing your intake of caffiene or other stimulents/

Have you heard rumors that members have suffered accidents
due to sleep deprivation?


Are you pressured to wear or avoid wearing certain colors?

Do you see a uniformity in regards to the way members
dress and wear their hair?

Are members arbitrarily forbidden to drive their cars and
forbidden (or ashamed) to say why?

Are you gently encouraged or pressured to patronize businesses
or constantly given referrals for professional advice only
to members within the group?

Are you pushed to move closer to where the group has its
compound or offices?

If you move to an area where other members of the sect live
nearby, you will lose privacy, even at home.

(Red flag if the real estate agent who guides you to find
a new address is also a member of the sect.)

Do those persons who do these things progress more rapidly
than others? (This is mere obedience, not spiritual aptitude.)

Real spiritual adepts tended to leave their communities, rather
than enhance dependance on them!


Does the leader allow people to mind their own business? In
Islam, the Shariah gives structure, and an islamic Sufi
sheikh need do nothing to guide disciples in this matter.

But what if this is a non Islamic group and has highly
restrictive rules governing sexual expression?

Are members easily able to stay married or partnered with someone
who does not share the group beliefs, or are these successful
intermarriages somewhat rare?

If you are forbidden sexual expression until you marry, how
can you and your fiance learn whether you are erotically
suited for each other? This is a real concern that has to be
addressed. If not, you are being set up for failure in relation
to a harsh set of rules in which persons already married when
one or both enter the group have a much easier time.

(It is worth asking what is sexual expression, anyway? This takes
us to the bad old days when too many young persons married so
they could permissably have sex and then found they were not

What happens if you are married in the group and find things just
dont work out? How do you divorce and then remarry? Erotically
mature adults who divorce and then are forbidden premarital sex
per group rules are in a difficult situation.

Does the guru give instructions about sex or when to refrain
so as to bring about magical or astral outcomes? This is to
intrude upon the most private lives of human beings.

For adults to allow another adult to run their sex lives is
to submit to severe control.

For a group to impose sexual rules impossible in practice for
all except the most repressed to keep, is to set human beings
up for chronic guilt -- look what happened to many Catholics
during the years prior to Vatican II.


Can you reduce time and fiscal demands and
remain a member in good standing?

Are you spending more time and treasure upon
your group commitments than you were led to believe
by your recruiter?

If you question this and want to cut back, are you told "Sure it is
your choice"? Then when you choose to donate less time and money
you encounter silent disapproval, even shunning?

Does the group demand that you make detailed
disclosures of your assets and debts?

(You only owe this info to the IRS, btw.)

And whoever does your taxes owes that info
*only* to you and the IRS.

When you own assets and these are not owned by the group,
the guru is not entitled to access your financial information
or demand it.

Are you forgetting you actually have choices and
do not owe your leader (or your assigned minder)
an accountancy for every thing you do?

If your are told that in discipleship you lose right
to privacy, or you begin to suspect you ARE losing
your right to boundaries, privacy, and no one
told you up front in the beginning that this
was part of the deal in joining the circle --
you have every right to renegotiate, even if
they refuse to validate this.

Prisoners, minor children and
those too incapacitated to function as adults
have to be supervised.

But not an adult who has committed no crime.

You do not lose your rights as a citizen or
resident alien just because you are a disciple.

Prisoners and slaves lack privacy, but in the USA, slavery
is illegal.

CONFIDENTIALITY –the Fiduciary Professions
--Those Regulated by Law.

Note: the ethics of the accountancy/tax prep
profession forbid disclosure of your
personal financial, therapeutic and medical
information to a guru.

Same applies to medicine, psychotherapy
and the law. You are adult, have committed no crime
are a citizen or resident alien of the USA--
you are entitled to confidentiality from all
members of the fiduciary professions whom they hire.

And they are accountable to you, not a guru. You
have hired them.


Are you feeling less enthusiastic and more
tired all the time?

Do you find you need to hide favorite items
(jewelry, heirlooms, etc) because the leader
doesn't approve of these?

Do you hide certain items for fear you
will pressured to'gift' them to the leader or someone
favored by the leader?

Where before you felt energized and intimate with
people, is there now a growing list of situations
and people you cannot discuss or even mention?

Are you being pressured to look enthusiastic and
chipper, even when you feel tired?

Have you been taken aside and reprimanded for your
attitude problems, or whatever the term is?

***Have you been heavily encouraged (another form of pressure)
to use medication to adjust your mood/cure your alleged
"attitude problem?"

***Does the guru (or some favored student who gives orders
from the guru) hint that you will regain favor by going to
someone who does some type of bodywork or rebirthing
that the guru thinks might benefit you in your practice?

If this modality induces altered states of consciousness,
trance, or relaxation states, this could alienate you from
your valid feelings of sadness, anxiety and anger --
and by estranging you from those feelings, delay what you
need to do -- get out of the group.

If any of these 'loving' concerned suggestions include referrals
to persons who practice these methods and also happen to
be members of this same group -- this is a warning sign.

Even if you later find you could benefit from medication
you should get it from a physician who is accountable only
to you and to the standards of the profession, and completely
independent of this group.

Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2015 10:09PM by corboy.

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Respect or veiled condescension toward other faiths
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 27, 2014 06:02AM

The Abrahamic faiths and genuine Buddhism (based on the Pali
sutras, not the later versions such as vajarayana/lamaist)--
none of these are based on secret teachings.

What made these distinctive is that all
these sects regard their doctrines as complete and
that nothing has been held back.

There need be no anxiety that something has been with-held,
no anxiety that you have been deprived of what you need
for full spiritual and human development.

If you are Jewish, Christian, Musliam, Buddhist -- you lack
for nothing.

By contrast, any sect that names Moses, Abraham, Solomon, Jesus,
and Mohammed but claims they held back secret teachings,
teachings revealed only later because modern times or the Kali Yuga
need something new --- this is a stance entirely different
and a stance that must be revealed if one is to participate
in full good faith in an interfaith dialogue with those
who trust and teach that thier prophets or their Jesus
revealed all that was needed and kept no secrets.

And a sect whose members believe the are led
by a living, infallible, and unquestionable
Master, and thus have access to new and private
revelationss beyond and superior
to those of mainstream Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity
Islam -- because of their leader's alleged infalliblity,
these sects have no stable canon (yardstick) by which
to test newly revealed teachings.

Thus the name of the sect may remain, but its actual
teachings and identity may change. Persons in mainstream
traditions safeguarded against secretive and arbitrary
changes of doctrine can have no idea whether the sect
they deal with in an interfaith project is a stable
entity or constantly mutating.

Stable themselves, and with no secrets to hold back, members
of mainstream faiths whose teachings are open, self critiquing
self correcting societies, cannot know whom they are dealing
with if if a sect participating in an interfaith project
presents as an open society, but in practice functions
as a closed society whose leader is infallible and unquestionable
as a person, not merely when pronouncing publicly on doctrine
in an an ecumenical council.

Unlike God-men or God-women cosseted in entourages,
unlike Ascended Masters,
popes of Rome are not infallible
as persons and can be questioned. There is an articulate
press and media network critiquing pontifical decrees. And
even the toughest popes of modern times face blinding
media scrutiny.

in an interfaith project alongside them is in a group
that operates as a closed society.

The following comments on interfaith matters apply to universalist
sufisms -- the stuff separated from its Islamic context, the
strand of universalist sufism that was heavily influenced by
Blavatkyian and Baileyian theosophy in the last decades of the 19th
and early decades of the 20th century.

Genuine interfaith relations are peer to peer, all cards open on the table,
clear and complete communication of all beliefs.

The common ground is sincerity, courtesty to tell each other the truth
and ability to state actual areas of disagreement.

Frithjof Schuon, who later created his own version of traditionalist universal
sufism, began to develop practices he confided only to intimates
but kept secret to outsiders and also lower ranking members who were
not trusted.

This kind of secrecy is *not* compatible with the full and
complete disclosure of dogmatics and liturgical practices
needed for interfaith dialogue.

For example, Schuon's take on the Blessed
Mother was rather different from both that of Islam and even
Christianity. Catholics fully aware of Schuon's methods of Marian
devotion might have chosen never to enter into interfaith dialogue
with him.




Burckhart and Lings were among Schuon's earliest friends and associates.
Here is the price of elitist secrecy. Hossain Nasr had done and has done
more than anyone to make many of Schuon's ideas respectable in academia.


"..the inner circleof Primordialists, the "New Schuonians" the outer circle of more Islamic Maryamis generally described as "Muslim
Muslims" who were looked down on by the Primordialists for their excessive
attachment to the exoteric formalities of Islam.

(Which Shuon had first taught, before entering into his many eccentric modifications -Corboy)

"Many older Maryamis were increasingly absent or excluded. Burkhardt
who had been ill for some time, did not follow Schuon to America; he died
in 1984. Danner died in 199* not having met with Schuon since 1985.

"Nasr visited Inverness Farms (Schuon's American group) occasionally,
about once a year, and according to some sources there was a deliberate
attempt to hide from him some of what was going on there.

Lings visited only once a year, but he too was perhaps not allowed to
see everything and was regarded by some or even many Primordialists
(inner circle) as a pedant tolerated only with difficulty.

(Corboy note: Martin Lings' biography of Al 'Alawi entitled
A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century, was the one book that
brought many into this very group. Scholar Robert Irwin, who
disagrees with Ling's interpretations and who himself
was a disciple of 'Alawi's successor, summed the book up
as an 'eloquent masterpiece.')


In the long run, those 'not in the know' were regarded
with condescension -- a sad return for their years of sincere
devotion to Schuon, their love for him.


Officially, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have zero allowance for reincarnation.

What has been given to Judaism, Christianity and Islam is regarded as
complete and all that is needed for any person to
reach the heights of spiritual attainment in this life.

**There is no need to worry that something is missing and that
one has to look for a 'hidden master' or 'secret teaching' to
get what one needs to connect with God.

In Buddhism, in the Parinibbana Sutta, Buddha answered all
possible questions before he died, and as he died, he stated
he had taught all that was needed to practice the Dharma,
that he had held nothing back. No need to look for
secret teachings or some hidden master.

In all three Abrahamic faiths, there is a core concept: The
inherant dignity of the human person.

This one life is all we know and thus has dignity.

In reincarnation based systems, humans are recycled.

In practice, social snobbery and class divisions have riven
all three Abrahamic faiths. But...there is no caste system
as exists in Hinduism.

There is no shortage of Christian artwork depicting the last

These three faiths are meant to be inclusive, with
the same doctrine shared by all.

The prophets of these faiths are prophets of God

An avatar by contrast, is no prophet but is a manifestation
of a Hindu deity, usually of Vishnu.

In interfaith dialogue if one group regards Jesus as a prophet
(Islam) another as the Savior, Incarnate of God (Nicene Christianity)
and yet another group regards Jesus as but one in a series of
avatars,all must disclose their quite different views of Jesus in
order for genuine interfaith dialogue to be possible.

Often gnostic variations have been regarded with suspicion as
bringing disruption to communities.

There are gnostic trends within each (Essenes and Kabbalah,
in Judaism, gnosticisms in Christianity, very many Gnostic
variations within Islam,
some of which may disclose schemes for reincarnation or rebirth to
an initiated elite, but these gnostic variations are NOT considered
normative doctrine for these faiths and have often been
regarded as elitist, disruptive and in some cases, heretical.

Within the communal faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam,
gnosticism seems a perennial temptation -- there are always
persons who consider matter and embodied existence as painful,
and want a elite, secret, and special, sort of experience
than seems possible in the open, communal life of faith.

What makes the Abrahamic faiths distinctive from Hinduism
is that time is linear, not in cycles.

There is no escape hatch provided by reincarnation.

Because this one life is all we have, and justice, restitution,
right dealing, honesty apply in this life.

And, mainstream, the Abrahamic faiths do not have esoteric
teaching for an elite with ordinary teaching for the rabble.

(In practice, all three of these faith divisions did develop
allegorical methods of interpreting Scripture. And there will
always be small numbers of persons in any faith tradition who will
create an esoteric version in which the argument is made that
the elite, the initiated, are not bound by the obligations that
apply to the community. But these elitist interpretations are
regarded as deviations from the mainstream, not representative.)

Jesus said, let your yes be yes, let your no be no. Anything else
is from the evil one.


Moses and Abraham are prophets, not avatars. They encountered
an awesome and mighty God, but God presented as One who keeps
promises and convenants.

**This is distinctive from the Hindu view of creation as a game,
a leela of the gods.

The great innovation of Judaism was to transform a terrifying tribal
God into the God of word, of contracts, where human reason and
negotiation could come into play.

Abraham negotiated with God.

God gave advance warning to Noah that a flood would arrive,
giving Noah time to build the boat and save animal and human

This is not the mere Leela of Hinduism.

God is not a whimsical toddler in Judaism. A contract can be made.
Tiny as we are, we can stand before God and speak and be heard.
Humans are given dignity before God in Judaism.

God doenst demand our mere servitude or obedience nor make us
endure endless whims and tantrums.

There are early forms of esotericism in Judaism. But the
most influential book of Kabbalah, the Zohar, did not
begin to circulate until the late 13th to early 14th century
CE. The important developments in Kabbalah life at Safed,
in what is now the State of Israel, developed during the early
to late 16th century, CE.

Kabbalah is thus very late development within Judaism.


God in human form. A god who suffered as one of us, not just with

—Is a group's Jesus the Jesus who would be recognized
by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and
by the saints of the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches?

The Jesus who, in the Greek Scriptures, gave so many warnings
about the abuses of wealth and power and who made himself
available to social outcastes?

This Jesus broke through into history. This Jesus was not
just another avatar, not just another in a long line of avatars.

The Jesus recognized by all these churches lived in a human body
as a human person, felt pain, suffered faced his accusers all
alone died in lonely anguish by torture, and in compassion, God
raised him from the dead as both man and God and sent him back to
benighted humanity.

The message as God works through matter, through history
and through people.

Contrary to new age and theosophical teachings Jesus was not just
one in a line of Ascended Masters, and contrary to Hindu-Sufi
fusions, Jesus, so far as the Christian Churches are concerned,
is **not** just another avatar in a long line of avatars.

To participate in good faith in Interfaith projects, a group should
be candid and complete in discribing whether its take on Jesus differs
from those of the churches –the Jesus of the saints.

Merely appropriating Jesus into a theosophical belief system
in which Jesus is just one among many Ascended Masters,
is different from a belief in Jesus that sees him
as unique, that includes the scandal of the Cross.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer went naked to the Nazi gallows in service to
Christ Crucified.

As did the many saints who recieved the stigmata.

I cannot trace the story, but once, from the pulpit, the preacher
told us of a patient who was bedridden in a medieval hospital.

Some pompous physicians paused at his bed, speaking Latin, the
languageof the learned.

In Latin, the physicians said, "Why not experiment upon this
vile wretch?"

To thier consternation, the patient was a university student, for
he replied in Latin, good as theirs:

"Can one be a wretch for whom Christ did not disdain to die?"

So the story went, this student recovered and later became a
member of the order founded by Francis of Assisi.

The Jesus who is just one among many Ascended Masters, or merely
someone who left a phantom mirage to hang on the cross
is different from the Jesus of Christianity.

In Jan Huizinga's The Autumn of the Middle Ages, one of the
biographers of Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy in the 15th
century, noted his master did not seek information about
the future from astrologers or fortune tellers.

" all things he (Philip) showed himself to be a man of
correct and complete trust in God, without having any
need to know His secrets."

Huizinga, The Autumn of the Middle Ages, 1996, p 288
Transl Payton and Mammitzsch

This man of the 15th century showed himself more emancipated
in some respects than many today who drive automobiles,
use and even program computer systems, yet tremblingly
submit to the hints, whims and predictions of someone
claiming to have astral insights into the future.


God created all.

And creation of the cosmos is not leela or play or mere
whim on God's part.

"Qur'an 21:16


"Not for sport did We create the heavens, earth and all that
is between!

"It wasn't a plaything."

In Islam, God's supremacy, majesty and power are
emphasized. God is incomparable, God has made humans,
but has never incarnated into human form and never will.

God has sent prophets and Mohammed is the final and supreme
prophet. Period.

In Islam, time is linear, not cyclic, no kali yuga to be
dealt with by a gnostic elite.

As with Judaism and Christianity, conversion to Islam rightly
guided, is 'it'.

One is not use Islam as a mere means to entering a valid
'initiatory tradition' -- as many do who are actually
traditionalists influenced
by Guenon or Schuon. Thoughtful Muslims object to Islam
beingregarded as a mere means to an end.

In Islam, there is a Last Judgement. Your
fate is based on your beliefs and deeds.

Karma is not part of Islam, God did not speak of karma
toMohammed or any of the other earlier prophets.

No one can cleanse you of the consequences of your bad
deeds. In this life, you must resort to Gods mercy, pray,
fast, give alms, make restitution to those harmed, and if
health and means allow, do the Haj to Meccah at least once.

If a Sufi teacher arrives on the scene, he or she is supposed
to have way of life and teachings evaluated in terms of Koran,
Hadiths, and shariah.

If the person claims some special initiation via vision or dream
(Uyassi, or from Kadir), that must be in line with Sharia.

A story:

"A story of a shaykh traveling through the desert with his exhausted followers During Ramadan. Suddenly, an oasis with a cool, clear pool and date palms laden with ripe dates appear from nowhere.

"Help yourselves!" says the voice of God. "You are so dedicated to My way that you no longer need worry about formalities.”

“I take refuge in God from Satan the accursed! replies the Shaykh.

"How did you know it was me?" asks Satan (for indeed it was him).

“Partly because of the way your voice sounded," replies the shaykh
“and because I know that God never releases anybody from observing the Sharia."

It would take an adept to recognize the voice of Satan. But it is safe and within reach of all to know the Sharia."

In Islam nothing and no person is
to be associated with God, substitute for God, or be equal to
God. Not even Mohammed is God. One cannot substitute veneration
of a holy person as a substitute for God. Human beings
are not supposed to be intermediaries to God. And many
a Muslim ecstatic died by torture for going too far in ecstacy
and claiming to be God or one of Gods attributes.

Mohammed is the final Prophet. Period.
In Islam, Mohammed is the final, the unique Prophet. Not just
another avatar in a long line of avatars.

All forms of Sufism recognized by Muslims are rooted in the Koran
and regard Mohammed as the perfect Sufi.


No God, no first principles. Caste and ritualism not needed.

Buddha is not one avatar in a line of avatars or prophets, either. In Buddhism
in its oldest sources, there is no First Principle, no God. Buddha stated
caste was irrelevant, only virtue mattered. Buddha taught as a human teacher,
and did not want his personality worshipped. He said his teaching mattered,
not himself. And he stated that karma is one of the topics that are imponderable
and a waste of time.

(Tibetan/Vajaryana Buddhism mingles so many elements of Hinduism
that its focus on karma and reincarnation is a distortion of the simplicity
of the 4 Imponderables. All the emphasis on karma, reincarnation and
acquiring merit was a way to support a hierarchical society of ritualists and cadres of expert lamas – the kind of ritualism and caste system Buddha originally sought to free us from.

Buddha came to free us from ritualism and anxiety about
karma, not enslave us to a new system and a new set of gurus.
In the Parinibbana sutta, Buddha is described as making
a final round of travels so all his students could ask any
questions. When he died, he said he had held nothing back --
he had taught all necessary for practice, no secrets hidden

(Quote) § 22. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation." (Unquote)

* Were you told at first that you could be a Catholic
(or Jewish or Buddhist)and still be in the group, but
only later found how much the groups teachings reduce
Moses, Buddha Jesus and Mohammed to
precursor prophets, mere a forerunners to your

Later, after joining the group, did you find
that claims are made that the guru teaches
stuff about the prophets, about Jesus
that differs radically from what is
taught in canonical Christianity, Judaism, Islam
and the various Buddhist traditions.

Does the guru (living or dead) claim to have
had special channelled teachings from
prophets and other holy persons -- material
not recognized as legitimate by any mainstram
tradition -- and you have to keep this a
secret from outsiders?

Do you find that you have to clam up around
outside friends who remain Catholic, Jewish,
Muslim or Buddhist, because you fear they would
be put off, or shocked?

A group may thus rationalize interfaith participation,
mentioning Jesus (or Mohammed, Buddha, etc), but
conceal that they regard them as mere precursors
to their own venerated leader. Through tactful
omission, outsiders are allowed to assume that a sect's
Jesus is the same as the Jesus of Saint Paul ('I
preach nothing but Christ crucified', the Jesus whose
name is above all other names'. (Philippians)) -- the
Jesus in relation to whom so many Catholic devotees
and saints received the stigmata.

A sect may not be frank in stating in its
entry level teachings that they regard
thier doctrine and community as superior to all others
because it includes but transcends the limited glimpses
of Truth accessible to the other faith traditions.

Other faiths, that do play their part in
the Cosmic Drama.

But....the poor darlings dont Know the Grand Scheme
of Things they unknowingly assist.

We are superior because we Know.

Your group, though, your group Knows.

But..this Knowledge, must be kept secret.

Now, when you were a newbie, and perhaps
reassured you could remain a Catholic or Jewish
or Buddhist and still join, would you
have joined if you'd been told then what
you have discovered since?

Privacy is negotiated consensually between equals.

And it can be re-negotiated at any time without
a crisis erupting.

Secrecy is imposed non consensually. You cannot
discuss it or negotiate an exit without there
being a nasty scene.

Secrets are burdensome.

If you realize you are lonesome, and havelost touch with
friends outside the group drop them a note.

It has long been recognized that soldiers need to get
away from the battlefront and get R&R -- downtime.

Just buddies and beer.

Persons worn down being foot soldiers in a cosmic
battle...they deserve respite, too.

Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 07:35PM by corboy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Never assume someone has read your mind or soul
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 07, 2014 09:01AM

Never assume that some sheikh, pir or whadya call it, has read into your mind,
your soul, your 'aura' or 'nafs.'

If someone seems to have read your soul, dare imagine that
perhaps someone did background research on you.

Or that some friend of yours acted as a recruiter.

Suppose you are part of a circle of friends. You share ties to
a Pilates or yoga group, or 12 step meeting, or go to the same

Through that venue, one or more of the members who are already
serving a sheikh or master, may clue in that one
member of this group may be a useful recruit.

Cumulatively, the targeted person will reveal a bit here,
a bit there, troubles with the spouse, kids, etc. All
of this is inside information. The 'target' thinks
these are all friends, can never imagine one of the
friends is a recruiter.

The more likely prospects the recruiter-member mentions
to the Master, the higher the rank that member attains.

If that targeted person is given a first meeting
with the Master, the Master, if told before hand all
that that target his revealed, can make it seem
he or she can read the targets mind.

Persons discussing another group, former members, described the
technique. "Becuse of the "Awe" factor, they forget whats details they have revealed in the first place."

In a discussion of another, non sufi group, a former member put it
this way.


Most of us know that the X members have these small group sessions somewhere in X area.

I'm not sure what the purpose of these sessions are, but I do know that when these members get together they share intimate details of their lives.

For instance, family troubles, financial, medical, professional...etc.
We also know that these sessions are led by one or two of the higher ranking(level) members. So here's whats troubling....these ranking members take detailed notes(written or mental) on whats going on in a particular members life, and they write a letter to X outlining these details.

Of course when these non-ranking members have a private session with X, they are in awe with this guy who seem to understand their feelings and the emotional distress they have/are going through.

So, whats in it for these ranking members?

First, they look good in front of X. They know that they have provided something very critical to X's operation.

Like everyone else, X not a mind reader. He probably usese the same techique that most fortune tellers use. Becuse of the "Awe" factor, they forget whats details they have revealed in the first place.

Second, these ranking members are humans just like you and me. They all have the desire to seek power and authority over something or someone. So in this case, their choice of weapon is "Information", not guns and ammunitions.

Just imagine that you're a corporation that have inside information about your competitior, I think this leaves the competitor/person very vulnerable.

Options: ReplyQuote
Benefit of leaving - no need to repress one's chronic unease
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 07, 2014 10:37PM

A benefit of leaving -- one among many.

Someone mentioned this from another group.

This applies to any group where you see portraits,
lots and lots of portraits, of the leader, all over
the house, meeting room, even in rooms where
one would think it quite unnecessary.



(Quote)Now I've been in this .. community for 15 years. It's been my
'rock' for so long. You'd think I'd be falling down in shock and
fear, wondering what calamities will befall me.

But strangely I hardly feel afraid.

I feel almost free actually. As if the great weight of guilt and
frustration is starting to fall away. I no longer have to feel guilty about not talking to other people about X group.

I don't feel guilty about not chanting every day.

I don't have to hide that spidey sense I get when I look at photo's of

(the leader). (Unquote)


(Quote)A few weeks ago my district leader advised me to start
attending two meetings per week instead on one. When I mentioned
that wouldd mean I would have to attend these meetings on my days
off work which meant I would not have a day off to myself EVER, he
replied "if you want to change your life this is what you must do".

I have noticed lately I've been feeling mildly depressed and seriously frustrated when it comes to chanting. I have seen incredible benefits to chanting, within myself but my environment hasn't changed. I believe chanting, quietly alone, is a form of meditation -hence the benefits.

I also believe when I have chanted I have tapped into my Higher Self or Buddha Self. I can feel it.

But as a wish machine? No.

And that's where this "I'm a failure, nothing's changed even though I've chanted and chanted and chanted" comes from. When my marriage broke up my district leader told me it was because of all my chanting and how it's all for my happiness.

Well, not really.

I mean, I'm glad I'm out of an unhappy marriage but I'm broke (paying for everything on a single wage), I'm alone, too traumatized to ever date again (it was a nasty break up) and all I do is work. I once chanted for 8 hours but again, nothing changed that I could see.


Options: ReplyQuote
A problem with theosophies -- they breed fear and guilt
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 16, 2014 11:10PM

All -encompassing belief systems are also subject to
confirmation bias. One repeats the stories and legends
that confirm the belief system but omit reporting
episodes which do not confirm it.

All encompassing belief systems are also self validating.

Anyone who doesnt share the belief system (and who is
not burdened by the fears indigenous to that belief
system - such a person is written off as 'worldly'.

People into reincarnation may find themselves told by
their master that death is not real, that those dead are
actually alive, finally in "real life' and therefore only
'worldly minded people grieve."

Well, what if you are grieving? Our very bodies ache in feeling
the absence of our loved one's body in bed with us.

It isnt just our brains and intellects which mourn; our bodies
mourn. To be told that these embodied feelings of grief should
not be felt at all if one is an 'adept' -- that is terrible

Know what? If you go about with a smile on your face while your
body is aching and mourning the absence of your loved one's
physical presence -- you're condemned by your doctrine to behave
in a manner that is not real.

And that can put you at risk for depression.

And if you have little kids, how can you support them in their grief
for loss of physical presence of someone they love, if your
Master has forbiddeen you to mourn that same absence? You cant
validate a child's mourning if you are forbidden by your doctrine
and its guru to feel full grief because, in reincarnation, death isnt
actually death, but a passage into so called 'real life.'

How can we know what 'real life is' if in this life, in this body,
we are made to put an unreal smile on our faces to conceal a
grief that is all too real, because our bodies feel it, despite
the indoctrinated mind saying, 'Smile, smile, rejoice".

And you

An elaborate set of beliefs about what happens to us in
the afterlife, and the bad fates that supposedly await
both persons who have died with difficulty --
these breed fear.

Death is already laden with anxiety.

Bereaved persons are vulnerable to exploitation --
guilt about not having done enough, vulnerability to
being sold expensive funeral accessories, etc.

But if a dead person is said to become an unhappy ghost
who must be appeased, possibilities for anxiety and
exploitation are multiplied.

Ditto if a person is alleged to have died in such a
manner that he or she drops to a lower karmic level
and has to repeat a bunch of rebirths once more--
each with its own possiblity for failure.

That is a burden.

In the middle ages, beliefs about afterlife
were exploited as a fundraising
device by the Roman Catholic church -- peddlars advertised
'indulgences' which, if purchased, would reduce time
spent in purgatory.

In areas where where Vajrayana (aka Tibetan Buddhism), people
pay for rites to bless newborns, exorcise illness and, bring
a departed person a meritorious rebirth. If fears arise that
a ghost or wrathful entity is giving trouble, this requires
ritual as well.

Even wealthy families could incur huge losses paying for rituals
and exorcism -- such was the fear bred by anxieties about
entities left unhappy after death.

A belief system whose assertions cannot be falsified
(one cannot disprove existence of astral entities, "planes"
or "karmic outcomes" may comfort by assuring us that
nothing occurs without a 'reason'.

Yet this type of system also breeds fear. And these
fears can be exploited, just the way the medieval
Roman Catholic Church exploited the indulgence system.

(Note: The indulgence peddling that roused Martin Luther in 1517
was a fundraising campaign negotiated by Pope Leo X. Pope Leo
needed to fund his expensive new building -- the remodeling
of Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome -- a project that ate money
and lasted over a century.


It is painful enough to lose a loved one, but to burden the
picture with astral entities, ghosts, etc adds complexity
to the situation of death and dying.

**And it necessitates an expert or cadre of experts one needs to
call in for assistance.

And in such a system, how does one 'know' how much ritual is enough?

Ritual experts who are paid for assisting souls in karmic journeys
or called in to appease those said to have become unhappy
souls or ghosts -- what incentive to these ritualists have
for saying "Enough, you cannot afford this, he is at peace, he would
not want you impovrished."?

In these shamanic/reincarnationalist hybrid
sufi-theosophical systemsone has to call on some expert
or leader to help with rites, rituals, reassurance, all
of which binds one yet more closely to the fear generating

Suppose you spend a huge sum for a Master to appease the
departed soul of a loved one. How can you listen to a
or friend who warns that you isk exploitation? This same
Master has been such a source of support for so many years.
You are bereaved, need solace more than ever, and you turn
to the Master. How can you stand to imagine this same person
now has an incentive to exploit you by charging a big sum?

If some person in a group is known to be rich, and they're
in anguish after the death of a loved one, only the most
honorable and ethical leader would withstand the temptation
to charge them money for karma cleansing rituals.


In many reincarnationalist systems, persons dead from
suicide are considered to meet especially dreadful fates.

This is an added torment to those who love them and
are already shattered by the aftermath of losing one
they love to suicide. To teach that their loved one
faces an especially bad karmic fate is to add yet more
to a family's pain.

Let us look at these reincarnationalist pronouncements
on suicide.

These are merely expressions various theosophical
belief systems. (See bottom of this post for a short
summary of theosophies)

Give particular attention to the statements
about suicide.


The persons who talked about this spoke **decades** ago.

They spoke as experts on the afterlife, and spoke
of persons dead from suicide as though suicides comprise
a single catagory.

These are assertions that cannot be falsified. One cannot
disprove karma, one cannot disprove karmic states. One cannot
disprove where someone goes after death.

These are STORIES. Not facts. Stories. Stories taken on
authority, at the same level as one believes in Big Bird
or monsters under the bed when younger.

(Some claim children have access to paranormal levels of reality
and lose this as they get older. This is yet another
statement that cannot be falsified. This too is a mere
assertion, a story, not something that is factual in the
scientific sense. To do science, real science, one works with
propositions that are falsifiable.)

Next, we have learned a lot in the past few decades.

We have learned things unknown to Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner,
Bailey, etc.

Thanks to the methods of science, (Blavatsky and her
crowd trash talked science at every opportuntity) which
uses propositions that are falsifiable and research designs
based on falsifiable propositions, here is what we have
learned -- things not known to Blavatsky, Meher B, Alice Bailey,
Rudolf Steiner.

* Suicide may be death at ones own hand, but
persons who commit sucide have such varied motivations
and risk factors that these persons cannot be
relegated to a single catagory.

Contributing factors to suicide are many and varied.

Therefore it is not at all accurate to state that all
persons dead by suicide face the same karmic outcome.

Let us look at Mr Robin Williams.

Just now, new findings have been reported about Mr. Robin Williams,
a man who gave pleasure to millions, a man whose death from suicide
has left millions of us grieving,puzzled and bereft.

It was found on autopsy that Mr. Williams was not only suffering
from Parkinson's disease, but had a medical condition, Lewey Body
dementia. This is associated with Parkinson's Disease. Physicians
reported that LBD would well have compromised Mr. Williams' mental state and contributed to the manner of his death.


Old school theosophists would have lumped Mr Williams into the general
catagory of 'suicide'

So here is the first of contributing factors to suicide:

*Organic, central nervous system disease

Next, depression. An important risk factor for suicide.

In the years since 1969, we have learned a lot about depression.
Many forms of depression have a biological, genetic basis.

Immense progress has been made in understanding the biochemical
bases of depression, and specialized medications have been
developed, making a vast difference in millions of lives,
saving many lives.

Bipolar Affective Disorder has been recognized as a specific
medical condition with subtypes (Bipolar 1, Bipolar II, even
rapid-cycling bipolar) each with specific treatment protocols
combining both medication and lifestyle.

Bipolar often has a genetic basis, and diagnosis is often delayed.

How can anyone presume to assign a bad fate in afterlife to someone
dead by their own hand, because they have an undiagnosed
medical-psychiatric condition?

**Karmic note: in many countries, especially the US, and especially
in some states in the USA, it is nearly impossible to find affordable
psychiatric care for persons most in need of it. The early theosophists
focused on individual karma and not the institutional level. Ditto
for the Hindus and Vajrayanists. The onus is always on the individual.

Additional risk factors for suicide:

For in the early days of theosophy (19th to mid 20 th century)
and in the 1970s, few were aware that many who suffer abuse
as children attempt to manage their overwhelming emotions
through drugs or alcohol.

People may grow up in happy families but encounter severe
bullying in school, so severe that they attempt or complete
suicide. Look at the news reports surfacing about cyberbullying.

Many persons who grow up in secretive, shame ridden families
internalize shame while still very young, too young to
have formed boundary between self and others.

A family member who internalises shame and or who is designated
as the family scapegoat/symptom bearer may be the one who
acts out. If this person also has a genetic risk for
addiction, this adds to the persons burden and he or she
will with such 'family systems' input, be at very great risk
of abusing drugs and alcohol.

This in turn increases risk for high risk behaviors and attempts
at suicide.

An additional risk factor for suicide: Dual Diagnosis

These thesophical pundits were ignorant or unaware that
many persons addicted to drugs and alcohol frequently suffer
from undiagnosed major depression, bipolar affective
disorder and that many take to drugs or alcohol in an
attempt to self medicate.

One could consider this use of drugs and alcohol to be
an attempt at **self healing**, one that temporarily gives
sufficient relief to the sufferer that he or she
is not aware of the price paid in financial and
relationship turmoil.

Should an instinct for self healing which takes the
form of drug and alchhol abuse lead to bad karmic

One could in such desperate cases construe this as an attempt
at self care -- hardly an evil impulse.

And some may attempt or complete suicide as an attempt to preserve
a last shred of personal autonomy.

Also an instinct for self-care.

And, finally, in the early days, few of us were aware that a myriad
of children and young adults sought drugs and alcohol or attempted
to end their lives because they were being tormented at school
for being eccentric, or were persecuted because they were gay,
lesbian, transexual.

Conditions which are not 'choices', not 'orientations'
but which we are born with.

When a young person is driven beyond endurance by life in
in a society that is bigoted in cruel ways, binned up in
schools in which bigotry and cruelty are concentrated,
why put the karmic blame on a despairing youngster, addicted
or dead by his or her own hand?

Lets assign the karmic responsiblity to the hateful

Meanwhile, these beliefs about the the karmic
fates of addicts, alcoholics and suicides impose
cruel burdens on bereaved friends.

And, friends, these merely are beliefs -- non falsifiable
assertions, non falsifiable stories. They are not fact.

Sadly, depression, bipolar disorder, genetic predispositions
to addiction and alcoholism, generations of denial and abuse
in family systems (and religious systems), school bullying
adult group bullying and homophobia -- those are facts.

They are reported in the newspapers every day.

Racism is also with us.

Inspect your group or lodge and see if people of all economic
brackets, all classes class and all ethnic backgrounds are welcome
as members.

If not -- that is a karmic pattern within the
lodge or sect which has to be assessed group level --
not blamed on a few faltering members.

The problem with all encompassing belief systems
is, because of their complete world views, they
may forstall inquiry that leads to much more
informative findings. Findings that can assist us
to remedy situations.

All encompassing belief systems are also subject to
confirmation bias. One repeats the stories and legends
that confirm the belief system but omit reporting
episodes which do not confirm it.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2014 11:58PM by corboy.

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"mind -melding" A ordinary human capacity not higher plane
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 02, 2014 10:19PM

Something new to learn: The Isakower Phenomenon

Hungry for Ecstasy: Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the ...Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the Sixties Sharon Klayman Farber. Cult-
Induced Ecstasy and Psychosis 159 She rarely thinks about it but finds herself ...
that this is what is known as the Isakower phenomena (Isakower 1992a, 1992b),

Uncanny episodes in which persons have what are described
as telepathic or mind reading do not prove existence of
paranormal powers, do not demonstrate that person is
holy,nor do they validate higher plane status.

Nor does this prove that a person with such
seeming attainment person can assist
you in your own spiritual development, nor does
it prove that this specially perceptive person
can clean your karma or samskara.

Psychologist Len Oakes studied charismatic leaders
in the 1990s -- leaders of communes, gurus, preachers.
The twenty who were interviewed by him displayed uncanny
social and emotional acuity -- but this immense power
developed as a strategy.


Instead of seeing it as a siddhi
or manifestation of kashf/'unveiling' Oakes, himself a
former commune disciple, found this to be rooted
in human development -- the mother child relation.

Corboy suggests that caregivers, especially mothers,
may have such experiences in relation to their children,
--and most do not set themselves up as gurus.

These are the episodes where a parent, especially a mother,
wakes suddenly, and senses the need to awaken a sleeping
baby -- and discovers the child was indeed in danger.

Or the sudden shocking feeling that something is "going on"
and an exhausted mother, awakened from much needed sleep
has the urgent feeling that she must check up on where
a child is -- and discovers the child is indeed in danger.

Or those moments in which one senses a loved
one has died and -- yes, it has happened.

This exquisite attunement may be a fully human
experience, not something "paranormal" or one
that proves that gurus exist and are necessary.

This may be not some special power, but something
resulting from a deep existing intimacy
between living beings. An intimacy often thwarted by
our hectic lives.

Turns out psychoanalysts have been discussing episodes
of this kind, starting with correspondance between Freud
and Ferenczi.

Later, this was enriched by Melanie Klein's observations
and her concept of projective identification.

Turns out these kinds of experiences, uncanny though
they feel, are tied to unconscious processes and have
that there is a secular, accessible literature about
such experiences -- the psychoanalytic literature.

A deep rapport between analyst and client can generate
what is termed the bipersonal field/intersubjectivity
in which unconscious content may at times be shared
with special intensity between analyst and client.

This can happen in other deep relationships, such as the
one between mother and child, and this unconscious
exhange may become specially intense in group settings
whose members share similar psychological features due
to a selective membership process which selects persons
eager for healing, submissive, whose personal boundaries
are already porous.

A group of this kind, sharing the same physical setting
and indoctrinational material (images, music, reading
matter) may have an especially powerful subconscious
undertow and intersubjectivity may become specially
intense -- and be attributed to magic or higher plane
attainment, when it is merely an intensification of
human rapport, combined with ecstacy producing technology.

And if the leader keeps dossiers on members and obtains
confidential information, this can be exploited to
make it seem the leader has paranormal powers and must
never be thwarted.

To repeat, uncanny events, a haunting sharing of emotions,
even to have similar dream material -- this has long
been discussed as a quite human phenomenon in the
psychoanalytic literature.
These events are real. But they are not sole property of gurus,
not sole property of higher plane adepts.

Psychoanalysts have been reporting such experiences
for decades -- and refining thier understanding in the process.

Regarding episodes of seeming telepathy as siddis or as
paranormal powers, as proof of exalted spiritual attainment
mystifies and **hinders** understanding of this part of
human relationship.

In the older Roman Catholic manuals on spiritual direction,
these capabilities were termed 'extraordinary graces' --
interesting but not in themselves proof of holiness, and not
at all necessary for salvation.

To repeat, these experiences can, if handled skillfully
enable an attuned therapist to feel emotions
that a client actually experiences subconsciously.

Here are some references to such experiences. This
book contains an extensive bibiliography. Its author
is a social worker/psychoanalyst.

Hungry for Ecstasy: Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the ...Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the Sixties Sharon Klayman Farber. Cult-
Induced Ecstasy and Psychosis 159 She rarely thinks about it but finds herself ...
that this is what is known as the Isakower phenomena (Isakower 1992a, 1992b),

Hope is the Thing With Feathers

Note here that Farber states that the goal is to endow
the client with inner resources so that the person
will be able to separate from the therapist and
continue onwards and outwards as an independant
adult, capable of finding new relationships.

Hungry for Ecstasy: Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the ...Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the Sixties Sharon Klayman Farber ...
serve as both a new and real object in the patient's life, the source of a corrective
emotional experience (Farber 2000). ... It seems to occur as if an invisible
projectile ...

Hungry for Ecstasy: Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the ...Trauma, the Brain, and the Influence of the Sixties Sharon Klayman Farber. Cult-
Induced Ecstasy and Psychosis 159 She rarely thinks about it but finds herself ...
that this is what is known as the Isakower phenomena (Isakower 1992a, 1992b),

(The article referenced by Farber is this:

Preliminary thoughts on the analyzing
Journal of Clinical Psychoanalysis, 6 (1992):
184–194. Isakower, O

To conclude,

Psychoanalysts do not, if ethical, use this acuity to claim themselves
to be superhuman or to demand special privileges, such as jewels,
luxury clothing, or palaces.

Unlike gurus, who accept only positive projections, leaving
negative projections for scapegoats, therapists must
accept **both** positive and negative projections.

Unlike gurus, therapists aim for the goal of assisting
clients to internalize resources so that the client
can, as soon as possible, graduate, and move out
into the world, not remain tied to the therapist.

Therapists BTW should not behave in this way:


Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2014 12:39AM by corboy.

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India generated a mish mash
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 15, 2014 05:43AM

In India tassawuf aka "Sufism" mingled with indigenous Hindu practice, especially bhakti.

One variant that emerged were the sant mat movements - Kabir, Nanak, and
a modern 19th century movement, Sant Mat. One subvariety is Radhasomi of
which there are a myriad of sects -- Radhasoami Beas being most famous.

Here is an overview of their practice. It may have influenced modern
expressions of Indian Sufism.

And shows that nothing is unique.



surat shabd or “sound and light” yogic tradition of Northern India. This tradition is represented at its best in the Radha Soami movements of Agra and Beas. Julian Johnson’s book, The Path of the Masters is the classical English language source for the philosophy and teachings of the Radha Soamis. Comparing it with Ching Hai’s writings reveals significant features common both to the Radha Soamis and Ching Hai. These are: the requirement to practise long hours of meditation under the direction of the Master; the emphasis on the Master himself/herself as the object of meditation; the practice of meditation at the “third eye”; the idea of spiritual progression through a number of ascending planes or levels of consciousness; the prediction that the meditator will see inner light and hear inner sounds, particularly musical sounds; the ability to leave the body at will during meditation and explore the astral world.

In 1982, Dr. Sudhir Kakar visited Radhasoami Beas -
interesting observation that may apply to Sufi gurus too.


This should never be done.


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2014 01:12AM by corboy.

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Another area where theosophical sufism is off base
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 28, 2014 06:34AM

Some 'Masters' taught that criminal activity, sexual promiscuity
excess indulgence in alcohol or drugs are manifestations of selfish ego.

"Reincarnation is a belief that is easy to misuse"

The author notes that our personal self, with its identifications
and projections is constantly changing. And..this personal
self is interdependent with our physical body.


This ignores what social workers and psychotherapists have learned in
the past few decades -- what even police have learned.

Many who abuse alcohol and drugs do so to heal fractured
self image, to get a feeling of cohesion.
Or may be using EOTH or drugs to medicate for depression,
or bipolar affective disorder.

A corrupt social situation may be in place. Alcoholism was
unknown among the Native Americans until the traders arrived
with hard liquor - and especially after the people were demoralized
by losing their lands, forced onto reservations and their
children sent to BIA schools. It was the selfish ego of the US
government and business interests
that kindled the alcoholism
in those tribes.

Next: many persons born into shame ridden families may internalize
that shame in early childhood - especially if born into a family
system that scapegoats them. Such shame burdened children may
grow up to become 'bad actors'. One or more children in this same
family may be unconsciously selected to soothe and mollify the
troubled adults---such a child becomes family caregiver. Yet
both caregiver and scapegoated bad kid are operating from the
same agenda: to soothe the family. The bad kid carries the family
shadow, the caregiver/hero kid services the family's illusory
image of itself.

(Same thing in cults: for an imperfect human leader to be
perfect Master, some disciples have to be the caregivers/heroes
and other disciples carry the guru's and group's shadow --
they're designated scapegoats.

Anger you dare not feel toward the guru gets directed to
scapegoated disciples, or those who have left or been kicked
out. Instead of recognizing the guru is ungrateful and selfish
one claims disciple A or B are ungrateful and selfish.

Needless to say, it is possible that persons who grew up
desperately idealizing an addicted or mentally ill parent
may re-enact this in adulthood by idealizing some ordinary
whim-ridden human being as Master of the Age.

Again, back to the claim made by theosophical sufi masters
that indulgence in sex and drugs and criminal activity
is selfish ego.

Yes, harm is done by persons engaged in criminal behavior, and as
part of their healing, amends must be made. But to get to
roots of the behavior, it isn't enough to claim 'selfish
ego' and then go groveling in servitude to some guru who
hints that he or she can untangle your karma for you.

Girls (and boys) may go hypersexual because their families
and culture con them to believe that's what makes them

In this case, its the selfish ego of advertising agencies that
does this.

Many females who end up in prostitution were lied to by
persons offering employment and sex trafficked. Or were molested
by care providers and grow up lacking the ability to recognize
danger and, burdened by shame, are easily conned into thinking
a pimp actually loves them.

Persons entirely selfish and without empathy -- the psychopaths -
are rare. And even there, neurologists are accumulating some
suggestive evidence that this may be a matter of a glitch
in brain structure.

If anyone is apt to have a selfish ego, it is Masters who
recruit others to give them constant attention, minister
to their whims, and function to buffer them from scrutiny
by outsiders who would laugh themselves shitless
if they saw what goes on behind the closed doors of
the guru's suite.

Plus, one cannot be said to be living an ascetic, simple life
if one is being serviced by an entourage. Especially if
the entourage makes excuses for any and all bizarre behavior
as being enlightened.

Most of us lose access to this kind of pampering when we
get past age two. Only gurus get the perks of adulthood combined
with the protection and excuses given to babies and toddlers:

Care given by an entourage, food, shelter, toys given,
tantrums, demands, and ingratitude rationalized as appropriate.

Not even the Prince of Wales gets that kind of pampering: he
faces media scrutiny, people feel free to challenge his opinions
in print. H. R. H. lives in luxury but faces brutal public accountabilty
--because the tax payers support him.

A guru gets to live as both adult prince/princess plus
have freedom from accountability that only a baby or toddler

What can such a person teach those who live without entourages
and must function in a democracy?

Note: Originally, reincarnation was used to justify
the caste system in Hinduism.


Folks, the caste system is a pyramid. Lots of outcastes
on the bottom, cleaning the latrines, lots of peasants
on the bottom. Only a few Brahmins at the top, and just
one Avatar of All Time at the summit.

If you are a peasant the odds are against your being
reborn as a Brahmin next time around, because there
are so few Brahmin slots available -- rather like Harvard.
Many more applicants than available slots.

And....guess what? Lots of people have simultaneously
claimed to be the Avatar. Who knows who is right?
Or if all of 'em are delusional?

Go read The Three Christs of Ypsilanti.


Hear that same music at other times, it may retrigger
that ecstacy, and dissociate a person from the difficult
emotions and difficult mind states -- such as doubt.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2015 03:33AM by corboy.

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Kali Yuga not ancient idea - and isnt sufi, either
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 08, 2015 01:17AM

An article here:


If some alleged sufi is banging on about the Kali Yuga,
take a look at this article. You may be able to ID
where the person got the idea.

Which actually is not sufi, anyway.


It appears to be a late Hindu notion, later picked up by the various
Western occult systems - and interpreted quite differently
by many theosophists, from Blavatsky to spin offs of Blavatsky.

Trivia note:

Rudolf Steiner, who had his own interpretation of kali yuga
had a hand creating a lot of projects. Very big on aesthetics,
colors, dance, theatre, music, etc.


This is what can go wrong if a group does not disclose to outsiders
that it has created a specialized environment -- making it
impossible for outsiders to choose for themselves whether
they want to spend time in that type of environment.



Another reason for the paucity of complaints from alumni of Steiner-Waldorf schools: This pedagogy could not function nor attract unless it incorporated genuinely innovative ideas and practices. Thus the method of teaching writing stresses the personal development of the student over artistic practices or initiative, etc. Such elements lead many students to enjoy being enrolled in these schools. And many teachers flourish there — despite everything — in their teaching practices. We would be lying if we did not recognize this, but still we have to wonder about some very problematic aspects of this flourishing. In addition, denying it could reinforce among parents who support this system the sense of being victimized if they are denied their free choice. They often opted for this pedagogy because they perceived its positive aspects and the "blessings" for their children.

Some pedagogical innovations effectively promote the free thinking of students. I think this is particularly notable in the methods of learning to read and calculate, how to approach science through experiments and not pure theory, etc. In his first philosophical works, Rudolf Steiner was able to intuit practices that promote the development of free thought — he sought to describe precisely the essence of this thinking activity. As a professor of philosophy who taught for a few years in one of these schools, I must admit that I've met students with whom his effects were positive, because they had a real taste for reflection, and they dared express their ideas and opinions. They could often show original and profound thinking in their remarks.

But these factors that promote the students' thinking combine, in this pedagogy, with the insidious indoctrination described above. This puts students in a frighteningly paradoxical situation: They feel that they owe the development of their judgment and the awakening of their reason to a pedagogical method and a teaching team that also indoctrinate them. For many students, this contradiction will be a source of suffering throughout their lives, if they are able to become aware of it at all. Think of the logical alienation and psychological damage, for the mind to owe part of its blooming to a sectarian context! How can one later challenge the very thing that seemingly gave us our well-being? For my part, I know that much of my ability for analysis comes from educational elements which I enjoyed in the Waldorf school where I received my education. But I also know that the cost of my inner freedom was this hidden indoctrination that I suffered since the age of nine. And I also know that it led me slowly but surely into a deep and deadly environment (Anthroposophic) that was mentally confining.


• Intellectual saturation inherent in Anthroposophy

When you become an Anthroposophist, you must ingest the enormous work of Rudolf Steiner (thousands of lectures and dozens of books, not to mention the work of successors). There is thus simply no room for curiosity about something else, all the more so as long as this doctrine, covering every area of life, is so complex and difficult to assimilate. "We read nothing but Steiner!" I proudly declared one day to the leaders of an Anthroposophic journal to which I contributed. For Waldorf teachers, this attitude translates into a total lack of reference to other systems of thought and other pedagogies, all of which are discredited in advance.

• Respect for tradition

Elements of the Anthroposophical doctrine are considered by Waldorf teachers to be THE truth. I know from experience that it is absolutely impossible, in such schools, to consider aloud the possibility that Rudolf Steiner may have been mistaken. At most, one may concede that his successors may not have understood or applied his message properly. Teachers do not therefore use a critical eye to examine why they teach these "truths," which form their whole cultural universe. The Anthroposophical community effectively bans any internal questioning, as I have often had occasion to realize, not only as a teacher but also as an editor in their various journals. [44]


To complete the overview of indoctrination of which Steiner-Waldorf schools are one of the pivots, it is now necessary to say a word about the parents. The indoctrination of parents is so ingenious. Many parents who send their children to these schools do so without knowing about Anthroposophy and without themselves being Anthroposophists. This was the case with my own parents. Firstly, the schools do not openly reveal the various elements of their underlying Anthroposophical doctrine. Only on rare occasions will the teachers speak, a little cautiously, of such matters as the "reappearance of Christ in the etheric world" or reincarnation. But initially, we talked to parents only about our teaching methods. Later the parents are invited to attend, at least once per quarter, educational meetings. At these, while speaking to them about different materials and about activities performed by their children at school, the teachers may gradually refer more and more openly to the "foundations" of Waldorf pedagogy. Still later, parents will be offered conferences where the themes are less about the pedagogy and more about the esoteric teachings of Rudolf Steiner.

The indoctrination of parents is especially directed at those who invite it by entering more and more deeply into the life of the school. We start by asking them to participate in an annual fair, just manning a booth or making cakes, then to do the same at other fairs, then to collaborate at the trimester fairs by assisting a teacher. Then they are invited to become members of various school committees and to take roles in pageants such as the "Play of the Shepherds", the "Play of the Three Kings", and "The Paradise Play", which are staged around Christmas, etc. They are also asked to become involved with the school gardens, and to serve as guides during various trips their children's classes take or those taken by classes in which they do not have children, etc. Some parents end up spending their lives at school!


4. The Indoctrination of Teachers

Contrary to what one might think, the teachers in these schools do not all start as Anthroposophists, but many are just teachers seeking an alternative structure, or student-teachers looking for a job. Currently, these schools are indeed unable to recruit enough Anthroposophists to meet their staffing requirements, as the Anthroposophical Society is reduced to a
small group of the retired or the perfectly enlightened who are unqualified to teach. Therefore the schools must recruit applicants from outside. Most of the time this is done the same way students or parents are recruited, that is to say, without revealing the school's true coloration. I was able to see how we recruited people who were only told, to begin with, that they would become part of a "an innovative, alternative pedagogy." Only gradually are the recruits eventually invited to accept Anthroposophical ideas.

The indoctrination begins with the obligation to participate in many educational meetings per week (unpaid) where the talk is supposed to serve the students' welfare, but in which many portions are designed to evoke the Anthroposophical foundations of Waldorf pedagogy. Of course, these meetings begin with the reading or recitation of prayers or words of Rudolf Steiner intended for the teaching profession.

Teachers must also attend conferences that open educational meetings, where esoteric themes are discussed. At first, the uninitiated do not understand much of what is happening nor the esoteric verbiage. I remember a disorienting first meeting during which a colleague of the executive committee of the school gave a speech, three quarters of an hour long, about iron "meteorites" (from meteors crashing into the Earth) which he said bring the forces of the archangel Michael down to humanity — this was meant to give courage to the teachers. In Anthroposophy, discussions are commonly meant to provide what they call "spiritual communion," [51] Such a conference is not just a simple means for communicating ideas — it is an act of sacramental communion.


the practices I have described do not always lead to the complete indoctrination of all students immersed in this teaching. Few of the students will become, as I did, members of the Anthroposophical Society. Most will only be impregnated with ideas that they will adhere to more or less consciously. For some, this will result in unconditional sympathy for Waldorf Schools. Others will work in the "Anthroposophical movement." Only a few become members of the Anthroposophical Society.

But teachers can use a Waldorf school to identify those students who are most receptive to the ideas of Anthroposophy. Those students are approached at the time of adolescence, often by a teacher with whom the contact is already quite close. For me, this was my history and geography teacher who took me aside after class to pursue certain subjects that could not be developed for the whole class. I remember that we talked directly about issues such as reincarnation, the incarnation of Christ, the Ahrimanic principle, etc. Students who do not have this potential affinity with Anthroposophy are not solicited. There is not, in fact, a recruitment effort so extensive as to be highly dangerous.

Teachers unhesitatingly show less interest — even a certain contempt — towards those young people who "lack openness" to their message. My professor of history and geography told me one day that a classmate, although serious and brilliant, received no more than an average grade of 12 in the study of FAUST because of his stubborn resistance to certain "progressive ideas" (as the teacher put it).

Even if it is not said openly nor always consciously, students are sometimes rated more according to their degree of adherence to Anthroposophy than according to their school work, and they may feel this pressure accordingly. Those who rebel will be branded as bad students.

Often, they will voluntarily leave Waldorf before the end of their schooling


Some persons who have taken vows tying them to a specific lineage
would choose, courteously but quite firmly, to stay out of such environments.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2015 01:21AM by corboy.

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