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The "Sufism" of Humpty Dumpty -- I Wish This Were a Joke
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 01, 2014 11:12PM

If the term "Sufi" can be appropriated by any non Muslim who calls
himself God, then the word Sufi becomes meaningless.

Sufi practices originated in an Islamic context -- and that context was
highly judgemental, one that placed many obligations upon both believers
and imposed taxes upon non Muslims.

According to Schimmel's Mystical Dimensions of Islam, the earliest Sufis
or proto-Sufis were ascetics in and around some parts of what is now Iraq.

They were troubled by how rapidly Islam was becoming compromised by the new
wealth brought by conquest of the wealthy areas of the Near East and, especially
the territories (Iraq and Iran) once occupied by the Sassanid empire.

Instead of the simple clan life of Arabia, the Muslims were now in cities,
and wealth was concentrated in the hands of a few while many were in poverty.

Troubled by this, the proto Sufis emphasized awareness of G-d, his judgement
and undertook constant remembrance of G-d and avoidance of wealth.

Very centuries later, when neoplatonic teachings filtered into the purview of
Islamic scholars, some forms of Sufism took on theosophical elements derived
from hellenistic and late antique source material.

**These materials have no discussion of 'evolution' in its darwinian connotation.

Only modern theosophies, mostly derived from Helena Blavatsky link spirital
development with evolution.

This is in contrast to the development of universalist 'sufi' orders in the West, many of which were influenced not by a Muslim context, but by a Western
context supported by cosmopolitan Westerners with the leisure, wealth and
interest in Theosophy and New Thought.

By contrast, genuine Islamic Sufism was practiced and propagated by Arabic speaking sailors and other laboreres -- who would have been horrified by
any suggestion that Sufism could justify believe in reincarnation.

To re-iterate, it appears that what we call Sufism developed **in the context** of Islam, which proclaims one G-d, creator of all else, distinct from creation.

And Muhammed is the final prophet.

And in Islam, there is a last judgement. A last judgement every bit as
terrifying at the one postulated within many forms of Christianiy. It was
in this grim context that many Sufis did teach of G-Ds love and mercy--
to balance out the context in which they as Muslims practiced.

If one were to teach as a true Sufi in the West, it would be highly appropriate
to emphasize what G-d demands of us by way of love for neighbor and the need
to restrain one's senses when facing the onslaught of advertising and the many cues to crave what we do not need.

In Islam there is no allowance for reincarnation and the early
forms of sufi practice did not make allowance for reincarnation, either.

Without the escape hatch provided by reincarnation, this left each
person with a heavy obligation to be mindful of religious and social
obligations -- property, business practice, inheritance, right dealing.

Very many precautions were in place to prevent Muslims from turning
Mohammed into an intercessor for them after death.

At most one could pray for the deceased after death and hope G-d would
be merciful. That was all.

That is the context, religious, cultural and ethical, in which what we call 'sufism' developed. Corboy suggests that if one removes sufism from its context, that in the long run it will crumble into a mish mash of new age/new
thought practices, with a few bits of islamicized motifs, clinging here
and there.

Sufism took its forms in the context of a religion and culture that
didnt just affirm, but required many things -- and didnt just discourage
but forbade many things. And Sufi lineages developed in parts of the world
where identity was tied to clan, to tribe, and where many gained nicknames
based on either hometown or where they became famous.

Likewise, Chan and Zen Buddhist lineages developed in the context of cultures influenced by householder Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism (China) and Shinto (Japan).

Such an assertion --that one isnt merely, enlightened, isn't merely a saint but is G-d such an assertion would be considered out of bounds in an Islamic context.

To call this out of bounds is to speak circumspectly and politely.

Many devout Muslims, if they heard of someone making such a claim
on his own behalf would reply in horror, "I take refuge in Allah!"

To worship that which has been created by God
(a man) as God -- in the Islamic context, this is considered ***wrong*** and it also violates the fundamentals of Judaism and Christianity
as well. (Thou shalt have no other God before me).

In the context of Hinduism one can get away with claiming oneself to be
G-d -- but sufism did not develop from a Hindu religious/social/cultural
context. Sorry folks.

One cannot turn baseball into football however hard
you try.

Unless you into the world of Lewis Carroll and enter the realm of the Red Queen who believed in six impossible things before breakfast.

(Some claim Hallaj, who asserted "I am Truth" (one of the Names of God) was a Sufi, but Muslim Sufis consider Hallaj non representative and marginal. For more on this see Marie Schimmel (The Mystical Dimension in Islam) and Robert Irwin's Dangerous Knowledge: Orientalism and Its Discontents -- see the chapter on Massignon.)

A Side Trip into Theosophy

Modern versions of theosophy which originate from Blavatsky have an element
missing from late antique, Islamic and Renaissance theosophies:

Blavatsky sought to reconcile modern science, and especially the new theory of of evolution, with gnosticism.

When you see evolution slushed together with karma and reincarnation,
teachings that there is such a thing as "spiritual evolution" or "karmic
evolution" up or down the planes of realization, reincarnation as evolution
or devolution -- chances are that whoever is teaching this material
found it in Blavatsky or was inspired by material written by someone
else influenced by Blavatsky.

Blavatsky and Leadbeater travelled to India. They defended the traditional
religions of Asia. Even if a particular guru claims there is no smell of truthfulness in theosophy, see whether he or she uses concepts from Blavatskian
theosophy -- such as spiritual evolution, or claims that evolution is
a shedding of karmic or samskaric influences.

One will not find this in Sufi teachings, which if these include themes from
thesophy, will not describe the human soul as evolving.

In Islam there is a final judgement, not reincarnation.

And perhaps as a byproduct of one life, one final judgement, in Islam
as in Judaism and Christianity, there is a concern for righteous behavior
in this life, and accountability to God's judgement after death.

One does not have reincarnation as an escape hatch -- unless in systems
considered utterly beyond the pale by all pious Muslims, Sufi and non

Other derivatives of Blavatskian theosophy will speak of 'ascended masters'.

A variation of Blavatskian theosophy even developed within a Zoroastrian context, by one Behram Shroff who claimed to have been tutored by hidden masters, then revealed his teaching, Ilm i Khushnoom, offering to reconnect
Indian Zoroastrians with the actual hidden meaning of their own prayers
and rituals.

Religions of Iran: From Prehistory to the PresentFrom Prehistory to the Present Richard Foltz ... more eclectic shape in the mid-
twentieth century with the teaching of popular guru Meher Baba (1894–1969).

Meher Baba presumed to call himself Sufi, but though he associated with
dervishes, he did not himself practice Islam, and by calling himself Avatar
forfeited all claim to be a true Sufi -- at least to any person who cares
about distinctions. He also maintained a Dhuni, a fire, not part of any sufi practice whatsover. if matters have come to pass that the term Sufi can be used to mean anything and be appropriated by a non Muslim who commits blasphemy by calling himself God, then the word Sufi has become meaningless.

"Sufism today is a name without a reality that was once a reality without a name."



According to Madame Blavatsky, the doctrines of theosophy rest on three fundamental propositions. The first postulates an omnipresent, boundless, and immutable principle that transcends human understanding. It is the one unchanging reality, or infinite potentiality, inherent in all life and covers all that humans have tried to say about God. The second deals with the universality of the law of periodicity recorded by science as found in all nature.

As morning, noon, and night are succeeded by morning again, so birth, youth, adulthood, and death are succeeded by rebirth. Reincarnation is the process of human development, in which all growth is governed by the law of justice or Karma. The third proposition declares the fundamental identity of all souls with the universal Over-Soul, suggesting that brotherhood is a fact in nature, and the obligatory pilgrimage for every soul through numerous cycles of incarnation.

Theosophy admits of no privileges or special gifts in humans except those won by effort and merit. Perfected individuals and great teachers, such as Buddha, Jesus, and the mahatmas, are universal beings, the flower of evolution.


There are Sufis who have a theosophical bent, but these are from centuries ago (Dhu l Nun-Misri, Suhrawardi, Al-Arabi) and many consider their position controversial--or at least to be taught and studied with caution, and always with firm attention to Sharia.

For a classic and reliable introduction to Sufi praxis (among many) begin with

Al-Qushayri's Epistle on Sufism: Al-Risala al-qushayriyya fi 'ilm al-tasawwuf (Great Books of Islamic Civilization) Paperback – October 1, 2007 Al-Qushayri's Epistle on Sufism: Al-Risala al ...Written in 437/1045, Al-Qushayri's Epistle on Sufism has served as a primary
textbook for many generations of Sufi novices, down to the present. The book
gives ... 1859641865 - 294k - Cached - Similar pages

Finally, for a good guide on what it means to enter the world ruled
by gurus here's this, courtesy of Lewis Carrol:

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

(Corboy: Another thing rides on this: Who is to be master. )

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

(Corboy note this: Alice asks Humpty Dumpty what his statement means. She is looking to him for further teaching. It is then that he praises her for being
'reasonable'. Alice isnt just requesting information -- she is requesting information from *him* -- after Humpty Dumpty has violated rules of logic and confused her. )

'That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

'When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'I always pay it extra.'

(Corboy: Go and read Nicholai Grozhni's memoir Turtle Feet and his descriptions
of the word games thrown at him by his arrogant and contemptuous logic professor. The ones who went to India should have read Alice in Wonderland.

Many gurus and soi disant avatars had good British educations and might well
have learned Alice in Wonderland--and then used the tricks to great effect
when dealing with the vulnerable people who visited their ashrams._

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2014 11:32PM by corboy.

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Ordinary people on Flight 93 were the higher plane adepts
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 11, 2014 09:44PM

Dont let any pampered guru use 9-11 to guilt trip you make them
(or their deceased predecessor) seem more powerful than they actually are.

Watch out for anyone trying to use 9-11 as part of a shiekh's fantasy

Corboy makes a citizens's First Amendment challenge.

Who reduced the carnage of 9-11 in Washington DC, possibly averting
an attack on the Capitol building or the White House?

Corboy contends that the saviors were not 'higher plane adepts' but a bunch of
unitiated folk who happened to be on a plane in the literal, non esoteric

Ordinary people who knew something was horribly wrong and refused
despite the shock of it all, ***refused to obey orders.***

Who were on Flight 93?

Ordinary people with guts and intiative.

Whose minds had not been turned to mush by years of nondual

Ordinary people caught in every traveler's worst nightmare,
whose minds didnt go into shock.

Ordinary people who got angry, righteously angry and didnt want the
wrong side to win.

Persons who retained and exercised agency.

Persons, not slaves. Who had turned themselves into
codependants hanging on a guru's hints, whims, shopping requests.

Dont let anyone guilt trip you that your negative thoughts
had anything to do with 9-11.

Dont let anyone suggest or hint that your alleged failures in piety or insuffient donations had anything to do with the tragedy of 9-11.

And dont let some guru or 'higher plane adept' claim he
or she deflected the attack from DC.

"Ideas are air. Events are brass." Herman Melville.

Planes in the esoteric sense are ideas.


Flight 93 was a real plane with real people on it.

Their families are still crying. Months later, their chairs were empty on Thanksgiving Day. Their remains were found.

It was the ordinary uninitiated unenlightened people on Flight 93, including
a gay man who developed his courage and initiative as a **rugby player**, who took charge and fought the cult indoctrinated attackers on that plane, deflecting that second plane awayfrom DC.

Mark Bingham


Ordinary people. Not higher plane adepts.

Thank you.


Some people think

Great God will come from the sky

Take away everything

Make everybody feel high

But if you know what life is worth

You will look to yours on earth

And now you see the light

You stand up for your rights


From "Get Up Stand Up"

by Bob Marley

(If you use it, do not overdo the marijuana, friends.

Dont become dependent on it.

Stay healthy, stay lucid, stay sharp.)

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2014 09:44PM by corboy.

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The Sufi All Occasion Default Smile -- It is Mighty Un Real
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 19, 2014 10:17PM

'Moriarty's' observations apply to any group presuming to call itself
sufi -- even if the group is not tied to Islam and its belief system is a
hotch potch.

Sufi Cults | - SunniportAug 30, 2014 ... Anyone from the cultists who has been reading these posts will think that none of
these points apply to them or their group. However they need ... - 92k - Cached - Similar pages

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(Quote)The busier the member is kept the less he is able to accompany people holding another view. Of course the group is told to shun anyone who opposes them and is told to only accompany people from the group.

Ecstatic states of euphoria are maintained on a regular basis and reinterpreted as spiritual intoxication or states. Many times people do this out of group think. I have discussed this with people in the Sayfi Order and the Boutchichiya where these states are encouraged. What they have in common is that in order to fit in the group many people have admitted that they only pretended to be intoxicated. This involves the screaming and the erratic movements, as well as the 'electric' shock which are applied by the Sayfis. There is clear mind control employed when the leader gives a glance to the seeker and then he screams. Later I may post a few videos of how this is done by the Sayfis and Boutchichiya, but this is the same method used by martial arts masters who claim to beat people without touching them. The student is made to think that he was attacked by chi force of the master. I posted a video of this earlier.

Once old ties are abandoned and most time consumption is with the group the member is bound by the group. He is in psychological confinement.

Some people who cannot commit themselves to the group because of the time may eventually leave, but those who are addicted to the 'Baba Juice' make the commitment to the group and sacrifice their time and family life for the addiction.

"This 'Baba Juice' addiction ranges from person to person. Some of the cultists may be learning their basics of religion which they did not acquire elsewhere (this is good if the beliefs are correct, but many times they are told false things and they will never know). Others may appreciate the group for making them leave certain habits (of course certain Self Help schemes are re labelled as spiritual help).

"But others will remain for the mystical aspects like the spiritual 'kashf', or impending doomsday scenario, (Kali Yuga Corboy) or dreams and miracles, or visions of saints and other things.

"Others will simply stay because of position and status, fame associated with the group and its popularity. Some may be addicted to the group because of friends and the feel good environment. In 'sufi' groups the food and drink also plays a major role. Some groups supply fantastic food.

Corboy note:

Some groups become renowned for musical performances
and take great care to stage 'feel good' events
that appeal to outsiders -- while concealing their
actual arrogance towards the outsiders whose goodwill
is so carefully cultivated.

Everything is just oh, so niiiicceee, incredibly nice.

The person who wrote as 'Moriarty' did so describing problems in
Muslim sufi groups.

"Ecstatic states of euphoria are maintained on a regular basis and reinterpreted as spiritual intoxication or states."

Corboy dares speculate that over time, members may learn or be taught
to trigger euphoric states within themselves after enough of these experiences in rituals.

This skill, if developed, can be used to self tranquillize when one encounters hardship or skepticism from others.

Persons who learn this skill may go about with radiant smiles and doe eyed expressions that can be quite luminous and beguiling to an outsider.

The doe eyed expressions and smiles may be genuine some times. But these
may also be used as default expressions to conceal boredom, contempt,
fear, anxiety.

I once knew a person who did this all the time.

Two days after 9-11, I saw this person. X's eyes had bags under them,
face was haggard, shoulders slumped.

But...the eyes were doe like and the smile still pasted in place.

A person who can maintain a mask of this kind can con the world into
thinking he or she is some sort of elite spiritual practitioner, when
all he or she is doing is using a very well practiced default response --
one that an outsider cannot know of.

Just as someone who is covertly using valium can seem oh so serene.

What the outsider does not know is that the glowing person may be
self trancing after long practice in exercises prescribed by a leader
who has learned a thing or two about trance induction -- whether the traditional methods long known of in Asia and the Middle East, or newer
more potent methods of trance induction learned from irresponsible popularizers
such as the Neurolinguistic Programming people.

It is possible that members may learn the "default smile" in such a way as to charm and appease otherwise skeptical outsiders.

If members decorate offices or homes to resemble the room where the ecstatic
trance work is done, self induced euphoria, complete with the glowing smile
soulful eyes, can be done in an office or business setting.

Long term, this may have serious consequences for children who grow up in such families.

Painful emotions that are part of normal human life may easily be shoved
aside by parents who self trance and who supplement the Perpetual Smile by
using humor to distract a suffering child from valid emotion.

A child full of panic, anger, may encounter inconsistent, invalidating responses
from parents who self trance and smile all the time.

At least if one grows up with alcoholic parents, one knows **why** one feels
scared or angry. The bottle is sitting out there for you to see.

But if parents are using self induced trance taught to them by their leader,
they are in effect process addicts and bliss addicts and their children
cannot know why the family atmosphere is invalidating.

At least if one sees Mommy and Daddy smoking skunk weed, or smelly drunk, one knows something icky weird is going on.

But if Mommy and Daddy or one of them is using self induced trance, how
can a small child or teenager know this?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2014 10:33PM by corboy.

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Ecstacy bonding and specific decor
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 20, 2014 11:24PM


Joe Szimhart tells us this:

".M. Lewis once observed in his book Ecstatic Religion that after an ecstasy (to stand outside oneself) you will invariably bond with the environment in which it took place or the source that appeared to inspire it. If one has a born-again ecstasy in a Pentecostal church meeting, that church will most likely be the place of worship and the Gospel the source of inspiration for a long time if no for life. If one takes a psychedelic herb in the Amazon rain forest with an indigenous tribe, the herb (entheogen) and that shaman administering it will likely form the narrative that explains the experience. Any number of cult leaders and motivational seminar promoters know this: If you can engineer an ecstasy, OBE (out of body experience), an emotional breakdown and breakthrough, or group euphoria, then you can better maintain the devotion of the client/recruit ...."

This ties in to what has been noted above
What the outsider does not know is that the glowing person may be
self trancing after long practice in exercises prescribed by a leader
who has learned a thing or two about trance induction -- whether the traditional methods long known of in Asia and the Middle East, or newer
more potent methods of trance induction learned from irresponsible popularizers
such as the Neurolinguistic Programming people.

It is possible that members may learn the "default smile" in such a way as to charm and appease otherwise skeptical outsiders.

If members decorate offices or homes to resemble the room where the ecstatic
trance work is done, self induced euphoria, complete with the glowing smile
soulful eyes, can be done in an office or business setting.

Long term, this may have serious consequences for children who grow up in such families.

Painful emotions that are part of normal human life may easily be shoved
aside by parents who self trance and who supplement the Perpetual Smile by
using humor to distract a suffering child from valid emotion."


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This would not be approved in genuine Islamic Tassawuf
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2014 09:25PM

A self proclaimed sufi group may, in its guidelines, forbid
cannabis and other hallucinogenic drugs, forbid use of non prescription 'recreational' drugs.

But...unless that very same group specifically states in writing
that alcohol is forbidden, and also cautions that prescribed
drugs must be used only when necessary and never for purposes of
intoxication, permit yourself to be skeptical, very skeptical of
this group.

First, in a group of this kind, people can easily react to spiritually
rationalized dictatorship by using RX drugs to suppress doubt, despair
and stifle anger at oppression. Visits to spas and massage
therapists may be frequent, especially for those suffering the
shiekhs's temper tantrums.

If any prescribing physicians are members of this oppressive
group, suffering members can quietly obtain RX drugs and risk using
them as addictively as alcohol.

Two, a group that has hallucinogenic drugs on its prohibition list
but does *not* mention alcohol, tacitly leaves members (certainly its leaders)
free to use alcohol, RX drugs and cigarettes, too.

And leaves everyone, especially the leader, free to indulge greed for
money,power, luxuries and shopping sprees.

Members of the guru's inner circle may be pressured to dress to the
guru's specifications.

An unexamined process addiction (luxury) shared by an entire group
is the biggest intoxicant of all--and it is exactly these 'process
addictions' that true sufis question and examine.

Use of a guru, living or dead as an intoxicant, use of music and
staging to create and enhance ecstatic moods--that too is

Get too dependent on the group ecstacies and its insta intimacies
and one may risk losing what skills one had to self soothe,
self regulate, endure stress and loneliness.

A group functioning as an intoxicant can be as addictive as any drug.

And some thoughtful social activists in Pakistan love Islam and sufism
but are concerned that the magnficent music and festivals at even
the genuine Islamic sufi shrines are used as emotional respite by poor
farmers who are in debt-slavery to local rules who are in league
with the Pirs and Murshids who own the shrines.

Some Pirs own land and are feudal landlords themselves, keeping
subjects in debt bondage. The legant marble architecture, gilding
and music at the shrines is aesthetically splendid and does give escape, but
also legitimizes the feudal system. For more read Empire of the Indus
by Alice Albinia.

One wealthy pir, married to 4 wives, marble palace, fine cars,
held audiences wearing elegant clothes, sitting on a hay bale
to symbolize austerity(!)

This pir was successor to Shahid Hazrat Inayat of Jhok,
a Sufi who gave safe haven to peasants and dervishes who
fled the oppression of the other Pirs and landlords.

The landholders were so threatened by Inayat's success
and his follower's dignity and independance that they
obtained support from the Moghuls in Delhi.

Jhok was taken by seige in the 1700s. Inayat was killed, his
writings destroyed, his head sent to Delhi as a trophy.

His successor at Jhok, as described by Albinia, is obscenely
rich and kept peasants subdued.

When Albinia boldly asked how the Pir reconciled his lifestyle
with that of Inayat of Jhok, the Pir replied, "I am he."

For the music and festival, women were forced to congregate in the
cattle paddock at the shrine, while the men had a comfortable
assembly point.


Magnificent music and theatricals can have a soothing effect on middle
and upper middle class persons who are 'owned' by a guru -- not just
poor dirt farmers on the Indus.

Use of alcohol is forbidden to pious non Sufi Muslims, and would
be shunned by true sufis.

Those using alcohol are rich enough to get away with it or poor
enough to be on the margins. Alcohol is prohibited to pious Muslims,
but in practice some Muslims do imbibe, but will usually do this furtively,
or in very protected settings, out of public view.

In some areas, such as Yemen, Somalia and other parts of Africa,
use of qat, an intoxicating plant, is widely accepted.
Cannabis in various forms has been used in Muslim countries for
centuries. Excessive use is frowned on.

But, anything in excess, even piety itself, is regarded with caution by true Sufis. The benchmark, whenever in doubt, is the Shariah.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2014 10:28PM by corboy.

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Imaginary sufism -- ayahuasca
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2014 09:26PM


Imaginary Sufism

The risks of using Aya are substantial. It also costs money, a lot of money.



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The Smile of the Slave
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 26, 2014 11:58PM

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves." Anonymous

Corboy: This quotation may describe a late stage of a successful
indoctrination process.

If a guru has many disciples, supervising each and every one of them will
be hard work.

Far better to arrange matters so that the indoctrinated disciples
reach a point where they supervise and perpetuate the enslavement.

Metaphorically speaking, train the disciples to polish their own handcuffs after the cuffs are put in place. And shame themselves and each other
into remaining docile, after the guru and senior members supervise
the earlier stages of the indoctrination process.

What probably happens is persons are hand picked as recruits
by adroit preceptors.

But once a group has been hand picked, potential dissidents
are winnowed out, some ejected early on, others squeezed out
or booted out later.

The remaining group of recruits, culled for the right combination
of obedience and talent is then probably schooled
to do the following:

*Internalize the image of the leader and distrust inner true self

* Become dependant on bliss fixes adminstered by leader. Any earlier
ability to self soothe independantly of the guru and group will

* Bond with cues (music, other members) in the setting where the
bliss exercises and trances are triggered

* Then, develop a long lasting pattern of behaviors in which members
keep each other enslaved in the way described above. Peer pressure
to smile all the time, look interested and conceal boredom, spy on
others, dress a certain way...the list is endless.

Once a group momentum is fostered, all the guru then needs to do
is reinforce the process from time to time via scheduled classes,
projects, rehearsals for public events, etc.

Meanwhile members keep themselves and each other busy polishing each
other's manacles and fetters, keep the prison uniform laundred
white and deck the white marble dungeon with fresh flowers,
discarding any that are wilted.

By contrast, in an officially designated prison/detention facility,
inmates have far greater self awareness than this.

They **know** they are inmates, and are free to dislike where they are.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2014 12:57AM by corboy.

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Questions worth asking yourself in any group
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 13, 2014 12:13AM

Look first at all the things you are now doing to remain in good
standing with your group.

* Would you want your own children to be involved with this group?

* Did you begin by wanting to do the things you are now
doing in order to stay in good standing in this group?

* If you had been told, up front, that you would be doing all these
things, would you have chosen to become involved?

* Did a friend encourage you to help out with some event her group
was involved with? And one thing led to another?

* Are you now in this group and you never talk to your friend because
she's become distant from you, and will not tell you why. Or have you been given some secret that can never be discussed with her?

* Did you lose friends by joining this group?

* Are you discouraged from remembering a family background you
had been proud of (immigrants who came to US, overcame oppression,
passed skills to you) and now you're discouraged from remembering
your rootes in history, and instead to be proccuppied with the
special place the guru and group has, not in mere human history
but in the Kali Yuga or some other cosmic cycle?

** Do you get so many job recommendations via members of the
group that you are afraid to leave because you cannot
afford the loss of income if you were to leave the business
network and have to rebuild a set of business references
entirely independant?

* Were you estranged from your family due to being adopted or
abused and someone in this group seemed to offer you
a 'real family' -- but now you feel full of secrets and lonely?

* Were you told at first that you could be a Catholic (or Jewish
or Buddhist)and still
be in the group, but only later found how much the groups
teachings reduce Moses, Buddha Jesus and Mohammed to
precursor prophets, mere a forerunners to your

And it now no longer matters because you're kept too busy to go to
Mass or arrange or attend a passover seder anyway?

* Did you start out thinking you were doing psychotherapy and
ended up in this group that is keeping you knotted up in secrets
and anxiety?

*Within the group, is your psychotherapist a person of rank, a
known disciplinarian within the group, with an access to the
leader few others have? This means your therapist is no longer
your therapist, once you are in the group. What you say in therapy
might affect your status in the group. If you are afraid
to discuss this or even think about it, you're in a trap.

(A therapist, BTW should beware of dual relationships of this kind:
combining role of guru assistant and psychotherapist with the same

*When you were new to the group, was everyone nice and helpful, and
now you're shoved to one side and told that your loneliness is evidence
you are egotistical, and you just need to endure and burn off or
unwind your karma/samskaras?

(Terminology varies according to the group, but being demoted after
being a new favorite and made dependant on flattery dished out to
newbies--that kind of demotion hurts.)
no matter what group you are in.

* Can you discuss how you feel with your spouse, or are you terrified
your spouse will reveal this to the guru and you could have a
ruinous divorce?

* Are you suffering in your marriage yet dare not leave for fear your
spouse will get legal support from the group at a level you
know you cannot afford?

*Have you seen marriages break up in the group?

* Do all the nice interesting funny people seem to disappear
or be ejected from the group. Can you ask about them or are you
given chilly silences or worse?

* Do you find you are *bored*?

*If your group or sheikh favors a particular kind of music,
clothing, interior decoration -- ask yourself -- Do I actually
like this? On my own, would I dress this way, listen to this
kind of music, sing this kind of music, decorate my house or
office in this manner?

*Do the major donors and supporters get away with breaking rules
that you and the lower rankers have to follow?

* Has the leader or a senior deputy strongly advised you to take
RX medication to help you with your attitude?

* Do they refer you to physicians or psychotherapists who are also
members of the group?

* Are there buildings or rooms within buildings which are never
spoken of, or only in hushed rumors?

Are you required to write letters to the leader or senior managers/

Can you be sure those letters are kept confidential and will never,
under any circumstance, be used against you, even if you decide
to divorce an abusive spouse who is in favor with the guru?

* If your spouse becomes a favorite of the guru, one of the inner circles,
is your marriage affected? Is your spouse away from home more and more
often because of demands from the guru? Are you obliged to "cover for" your
spouses absences with your children?

* Is your spouse able to talk frankly with you about all this, or is the
price of being guru's favorite, a spouse who has gone silent on you?

* Do you have anyone you can discuss this with without fear disfavor from
the guru? Do you find yourself having to find an outside counselor, one
with no ties to the group and take extreme precautions to hide that you
are doing this?

If so, this is what people do when living in dictatorships.

Corboy note:

If anyone feels terrified they cannot make it on their own,
here is one possible strategy. Be warned, it might be
very frightening and stressful. But if you're badly
trapped, you may already be feeling things cant
get any worse.

Sample what it is like to be at a social situation that
is consensual and all cards are on the table.

If you live in an area
where group members notice each other
quite easily, go by yourself to an open AA meeting in some area where
you cannot be traced.

If your group members have special insignia on their cars, remove
yours--or take a bus or cab.

Go to an open Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and go in an
area where no one will know who you are.

Dont talk during the meeting -- unless you are sure
you are likely to have become addicted to ETOH or pills.

Talk to the old members there at coffee hour and ask them what it
takes to begin from zero. Many of them have done exactly that
and from a rock bottom, socially, economically, after having burned
every one of their bridges.

All you need to do is be rigorously honest. Old timers in 12 step
meetings pick up on that right away. And -- they can spot BS.

Lots of people begin from zero, after giving up their friends and
neighborhoods and start all over again.

You dont have to stay with the 12 Step group -- just go and absorb
you feel in group where people are at liberty to speak honestly
and the rules are the same for newbies and old timers, and
the commitment is clearly spelled out the minute you walk through
the door.

That way you can see how the atmosphere in your group compares
with atmosphere in a group where all cards are out on the table.

Caution: Do not let anyone con you into dating them or giving them
money. Most 12 Step people are wonderful, but just a few hustlers
do come in from time to time and try to scam the system.

If you feel better and your group friends push you to tell them

You may have found your private clue to real happiness and if you
blab, they may report you to the guru, and you may be pressured
to disown your actual feelings and end up enslaved for more

Even if you owe a lucrative career and lots of job references to
a wealthy, well connected group --

***You do NOT owe them your soul, your agency, your dignity, your
freedom as a human being.

You are not in jail. If you find you were not told honestly and up front
what a group would demand of you, leave.

Once you are a free citizen once again, you will be better at
whatever career the group helped you get into.

You will be a citizen, no longer a subject.

Remember, if you are not in financial debt, you dont owe them anything.

In questions of doubt, consult a lawyer -- one who isnt connected with
the group.

Many groups dread generating documents that could become
public record. If you hire an attorney to negotiate what
you owe the group so you can leave them on a clean break
this may cause them to treat you with new respect.

"Moriarty" in a discussion of Islamic Sufi groups had some questions

(Quote)Have you noticed that there is one set of rules for the leader or elite, another set for the group members?

Do you ever feel bad or guilty for not behaving as the leader/group says you should? (when you know in some cases that the order is against shariah, or in other cases against your better feeling)

Do you find that you have lots of very strong emotions, sometimes for no apparent reason?

Do you sometimes feel alone when there seems no real need to feel lonely?

Are you experiencing frustration because you can't seem to get the groups techniques to work for you?

Is marriage only encouraged within the group, as well as trade?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2014 01:48AM by corboy.

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A dangerous sitaution
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 13, 2014 10:00PM

The most dangerous situation to be in --
to believe you are of the Elect.

Persons who are convinced they are members of an
elect, members of an elite convinced they have
THE ONE ANSWER to save the world.

When you are convinced you of of the Elect

* You feel superior all who do not share this status

* You are an a mission and feel entitled to lie to
anyone who is perceived as an obstacle to The Mission

* If you are heavily indoctrinated, you are convinced that
slavery and servitude is actually Real Freedom.

* If heavily indoctrinated, you may be PROUD if someone says,
"But you are involved with a cult". You are proud because
being called a cult means your group is of the elect,
your leader may really be the Mahdi or the Qutb and
and that all groups of superior people are seen as cults by
Unevolved People.

* You may be told, you are acting like an addict in relation
to your group and leader. You will be proud of this, you
may even say, "I once was addicted to alcohol, materialism
drugs, addicted to gambling and debauchery but this group
cured me, and its a positive addiction!!!"

Problem is, *any addiction* stunts genuine humanity and you will
lie, to yourself and others to support even a positive addiction.

* You will sacrifice fellow members of the elite if someone must
sacrificed to win the cosmic battle

* You feel willing to be sacrificed if that is what it takes
to win the cosmic battle. Your body will protest. Your deeper
suppressed self will protest, but if you've been indoctrinated
and Believe in the Cause -- you will brush misgivings aside

-- unless you are very lucky.

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Other and useful signs
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 18, 2014 11:11PM

Consciously you may feel afraid to admit you are in a relationship
or a group and just do not want to be there anymore.

The cost of admitting you want out is, at conscious level, too
painful to admit.

Signs that some true part of yourself does want out.

* You get in an accident or have an illness that exempts
you from participating in group activities and you are
glad for the break.

* There are items you want to read or things you want to do
and you find you are hiding them so you can keep something
just for yourself and not surrender it to group processes
and scrutiny.

* You used to be able to bring dreams to a dream group
run by your group.

But now your dreams are drying up. This could signal that
the part of you that functions subconsciously no longer
trusts the situation. It is analogous to feeling unable
to respond sexually to someone you once loved and trusted
but whom you no longer trust -- or are bored by.

* You find you are getting stomach aches or other painful symptoms
before required activities.

* The leader or facilitators (or those who are the smiling disciplinarians)
are on your case for your 'lack of enthusiasm'.

* Friends in the group or its facilitators may push you to go
on tranquillizers or other antidepressants and refer you to
a prescribing physician who is a member of the group.

(This should be a personal decision strictly between you and the MD
of your choice. If the MD is part of the group and has surrendered
to the guru, it is a dual relationship. And...your patient confidentiality
may be at risk.)

* You find you are falling asleep during required activities.

* You have shopping obsessions or other obsessions that come
seemingly out of nowhere and if looked at, may signal what
your inner life actually contains.

PS If you are required to disclose your shopping patterns as part of
being in this group, you are living something that is more like
North Korea or Orwell's 1984 than a school for spiritual development.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2014 11:14PM by corboy.

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