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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 06, 2008 11:27PM

Regarding Gurjieffs claim to teach esoteric Christianity--I dont buy it.

Christianity teaches the inherant dignity of the ordinary human being.

To teach as G did that people dont have souls unless they engage in special exercises to develop souls and are otherwise machines and food for the moon--that is incompatible with any belief system based in inherant dignity of the human person.

There is a rumor that on his deathbed the old bastard said, 'I have left a fine mess behind me.'

If so, it was probably the only truthful thing he ever said.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: bill77 ()
Date: August 06, 2008 11:34PM

I can't help but wonder how many people you know that actually knew Mr. Gurdjieff. I have known a dozen or so.
But only those with ears will hear.
You are clueless was to who Mr.Gurdjieff was, and what his teaching was about.

'nuff said from here.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 07, 2008 12:20AM

bill77:

Please don't engage in personal attacks regarding members of the message board.

This is against the rules you agreed to before posting here.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: bill77 ()
Date: August 07, 2008 12:37AM

I don't consider pointing out gross distortions of a teaching as a personal attack;If it was interpreted as such I apologize. But I do feel that the previous writer does not grasp the underlying themes or esscenece of Mr. Gurdjieff's teaching, but rather the 'sensational' and titilating distortions that abound.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 07, 2008 12:41AM

bill77:

If you have something to say that's substantive, by way of a factual rebuttal, fine.

But calling people "clueless" and saying "those with ears will hear," isn't a meaningful response and instead simply personally insulting.

Last warning.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 12:42AM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 07, 2008 12:45AM

A Sufi author who was involved in a Gurdjieff group with what appears to be a venerable pedigree has some intriguing information. The group was reportedly not pleased when he chose to leave.

[spiritual-health.org]

The author has an entire library of topics on spiritual abuse within Sufism

[spiritual-health.org]

and..another library of essays on general Sufi topics here:

'Streams to the Ocean

[spiritual-health.org]

In the Gurdjieff essay the author mentions the following which I thought was worth quoting:

Quote

Some of my earliest contacts with anything remotely related to the Sufi Path was through Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.

' I actually spent some time with a Gurdjieff group that was tied to Madam Walsh - wife of the attending physician at the time of Gurdjieff's passing away in France.

'One of the other primary lines of Gurdjieff-linked teachings was through Madam de Hartmann, wife of Thomas de Hartmann who often played, and helped arrange, the music that was played in conjunction with the form of sacred dancing which Gurdjieff introduced to the West.

'Interestingly, at the time I was involved with all of this, the latter group didn't seem to have much to do with the former group, and vice versa.

While there were many very talented and intelligent people associated with the Gurdjieff-like group with which I spent a little over a year, I didn't feel any of the leaders of the group had substantial spiritual insight into the nature of Being.

More importantly, not only did I find some of their answers to my questions problematic - especially as things related to the possible links between Gurdjieff and the Sufi tradition, alluded to in, for example, the second of three works by Gurdjieff - namely, Meetings with Remarkable Men -
"but, as well, I found disconcerting and troublesome the way several of them came in search of me at my place of employment when I indicated to them that I was going to pursue the Sufi Path rather than continue with the Gurdjieff group.

and...

Quote

All too many people confuse manifestations of worldly kashf with spirituality. Although some authentic shaykhs have access to such powers, the general principle among legitimate guides is to keep one's distance, as much as possible, from matters of worldly kashf.

I have read much that Gurdjieff has written (including: Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson) along with many of the writings of his followers such as Ouspensky, Nicoll (e.g., the multi-volume Commentaries), as well as spent some time with at least one person who actually knew Gurdjieff. Nonetheless, although I saw lots of evidence for worldly kashf in Gurdjieff (and some of those who followed him), there seemed to be very little evidence for spiritual kashf in conjunction with him - indeed, there seemed to be more confusion about spirituality swirling around, and through, his teachings than clarity.

Gurdjieff was interested - or, so, he claimed - in waking people from their sleep. But, there is such a thing as dreaming that one has awoken, only to remain fast asleep, and one of the questions which is still relevant with respect to Gurdjieff and his teachings is to what extent Gurdjieff was actually spiritually awake, or to what extent his teachings were capable of helping one find the truth of things.

God knows best what the truth is concerning him. However, he gives expression to a continuing problem for seekers after the Truth, and, in fact, this is the primary reason why I have spent a bit of time talking about Gurdjieff.

I have heard many people allude to powerful zikrs that they have experienced. I, too, have participated in zikrs which have quite powerful.

Nonetheless, one still can raise questions about what is actually transpiring during such sessions or from where the power is coming which may be associated with a given zikr. The unrealized individual is vulnerable to attacks from Iblis and nafs while saying zikr - or, while engaged in prayer, contemplation and seclusion, and the presence of an altered state of consciousness in conjunction with certain practices does not necessarily mean that the state is an expression of Divine favor.

Trans-personal experience does not, in and of itself, necessarily say anything about the significance of such experience. Iblis is capable of inducing non-ordinary states of consciousness, as is nafs, and so are practitioners of occult systems. Many drugs - designer and natural - also are capable of generating very powerful, transforming experiences, and, under certain circumstances, group dynamics can bring about overwhelming emotional, physical, and psychological changes.


Just for clarification, Gurdjieff's stuff and Traditionalism are two different ideologies.

But both have the same outcome: adherants feel they are on some sort of secret mission and that those who disagree are at best clueless and at worst, against them. A pattern of dissumulation and concealment seems often to be part of the deal.

And...selective recruitment of persons deemed useful to 'the cause.'

Am proud to be clueless about Gurdjieff.

And I dont mind dying like a dog. Unlike human beings, dogs are loyal and incapable of lying. In the case of dogs, what you see is what you get.

Agehananda Bharati put it nicely when he said, you cannot get esoteric truth from esoteric lies.

As for the old chestnut that superior spiritual attainment releases one from the obligation of conventional ethics (or in the case of Islam, following Sharia), there is a story told of a sheikh during Ramadan. It is forbidden during daylight to drink or eat during Ramadan.

All at once, a vision of an oasis and date palms appears and an angelic voice invited the holy man to partake, saying 'Your sanctity is such that you are free to eat and drink.'

So the story goes, the sheikh replied, 'I take refuge in God from Shaytan the Accursed.

'So how did you know it was me?' the Tempter asked.

'Partly from your tone of voice,' the master replied, 'and because God never exempts anyone from following the Sharia.'



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 01:09AM by corboy.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: bill77 ()
Date: August 07, 2008 02:21AM

I understand that the path Gurdjieff took, and laid out for many to follow - many who choose to 'not do their alms in public' and remain quiet about their involvement -( unlike Frank Loyd Wright , Peter Brook, John Cleese, Keith Jarret, and many others who are public about their interest )- that path is not for every one. In the sense of fairness to this teaching, garnering annecdotal tales from third party novellas is not a fair evaluation.
I also feel refering to Mr. Gurdjieff as 'an old bastard' is pejorative in nature and insulting to those of us who hold him in regard, and should be cited by the moderator if indeed he is interested in an objective exchange of opinions without prejudice and insult. If you prefer a closed system, where double standards rule, that is your perogative. I understand that it is your sandbox.
Thanks.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 07, 2008 03:32AM

bill77:

Gurdjieff is not a member of this message board.

He is dead.

Corboy is a member of this message board and very much alive.

If you cannot abide by the rules you agreed to will be banned from this message board.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: bill77 ()
Date: August 07, 2008 06:57AM

Truth is not for those who are respectable, nor for those who desire
self-extension, self-fulfillment. Truth is not for those who are seeking
security, permanency; for the permanency they seek is merely the opposite of
impermanency. Being caught in the net of time, they seek that which is
permanent, but the permanent they seek is not the real because what they seek is
the product of their thought. Therefore, a man who would discover reality must
cease to seek - which does not mean that he must be contented with what is. On
the contrary, a man who is intent upon the discovery of truth must be inwardly a
complete revolutionary. He cannot belong to any class, to any nation, to any
group or ideology, to any organized religion; for truth is not in the temple or
the church, truth is not to be found in the things made by the hand or by the
mind. Truth comes into being only when the things of the mind and of the hand
are put aside, and that putting aside of the things of the mind and
of the hand is not a matter of time. Truth comes to him who is free of time,
who is not using time as a means of self-extension. Time means memory of
yesterday, memory of your family, of your race, of your particular character, of
the accumulation of your experience which makes up the 'me' and the 'mine'.

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Re: Gurdjieff
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 07, 2008 08:27AM

For the record, I met a lady who had been in a Gurdjieff group and she took the initiative in referring to G as 'the old b----d.'

She'd been kicked out after 8 years because she'd asked too many questions. Luckily for her, others had been kicked out earlier and instead of shunning them, she'd stayed in touch, so she had built in support.
Despite this, her marriage went on the rocks, she had a health breakdown due to stress and regained balance by grace of learning Buddhist practice and being prescribed an antidepressant. And..was still friends with her ex-husband.

Not all are so fortunate.


This gentelman has even stronger opinions. Folks into 'the work' wont want to read this at all...it'll make em waste too much energy on someone eunevolved and unworthy of their attention.

[www.davearcher.com]

[www.davearcher.com]

Quote

The Gurdjieff Work, also known as “Fourth Way Schools,” upholds teachers with direct lines leading back to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, among others. Teachers who are “officially” acknowledged to have studied the “real Work” with the “right people”. In published statements the "Fourth Way" disavows Alex Horn as a legitimately connected teacher.

Yo, my Gurdjieff teacher wasn’t a real Gurdjieff teacher.

I loved knowing the Work was also known as, “The Sly Man’s Way”. That as a member, I had a near obligation to bend societal rules, indeed, avoid them completely because they were mechanical and represented death. In the beginning was the word, and the word was: SLY.

Today I see it as brilliantly seductive and quite psychopathic.

What I want to know is: was Gurdjieff a real Gurdjieff teacher. Okay.

Because I did study the Work books and materials for many years, eventually rejecting them for my own reasons. For one, Gurdjieff himself did not seem all that “conscious”. The man drove his Citroen around Europe like Mr. Toad in Wind in the Willows, until he crashed and very nearly killed himself. Students have wondered if Gurdjieff’s accident was perhaps, a "conscious smashup” if you will. Please, the guy drove like a nimrod, plus he drank an unholy amount of the strongest coffee and liquor everyday.

Mother’s Against Drunk Drivers would not have approved.
I met and married Michaelle around a year after I left The Group. She knew nothing of Gurdjieff. In the next five years we had two children and I am most sad to say my family suffered as a result of my having been so twisted in “G”. For ten years after I left I still felt the IDEAS were valid and pushed them on others, which of course, everyone highly resented. For the first few years I was intolerable. You know, telling people they were asleep. I drank as much before Horn as I did after, but before I was annoyingly exuberant, not often violent. After The Group I was violent and abusive period. One of the reasons I loved meetings was we drank. And cigarettes. My god, the cigarettes. At a meeting of two hundred people there might be twenty or so, gallon jugs of wine going around.

Alex Horn’s take on the Gurdjieff ideas encouraged their practice through confrontation of weakness, humiliation, amoral goal setting, screaming, physical fighting and more. This was all supposed to be for a good end.

From the bottom of my heart then, for all time, I apologize to my family. I know I can never make it up to you Michaelle, River and Forest. Still, I am sorry. It took many years to outgrow Post Alex Stress Disorder and you did not deserve it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 08:29AM by corboy.

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