"So what is your take Shanti?
Was SIF anti-gay in the 70s or just against effeminate males?
Are they just pulling our legs?"


Quite honestly ...I don't know.
In the couple of years time frame that I
was around Chris in the 70's, I can't
recall any lectures or comments about gays.

But you also have to remember that I was
NOT an initiated disciple then...
and, even more importantly...I am female.

The men got together & had their chats & exchanges
frequently away from any women present.
In fact, very few women were around at Koolau ever then.
Koolau was hard core bramachari run when I first encountered it.
The few women that did come around were "tolerated".
So I have no clue what the male Chris gang talked about privately...
they were like an exclusive all boys club!

When a woman householder finally did come to live there
is about the same time I stopped going.

I do know however that anti-gay sentiments were
happening in the mid 80's & afterwards.
Chris had one female disciple that he KNEW was gay...
(he knew this from the get-go, she was not hiding her life at all)
and she served on many projects for him for years...
during the 70's & 80's.
Then all the sudden Chris decided she had to either
give up her lifestyle, or be banished.
This was after probably a good ten years of service to Chris!
He made her life so miserable ...
no one was to associate with her, she couldn't attend kirtan etc.
She eventually tolded him to fuck off & she left.

That's my only first hand knowledge & experience with it.

Jivan has that Timothy Leary look doesn't he. The photography doesn't help.

It was only created two weeks ago. They have him chanting Hallelujah as if to show he is really christian and a Hare Krishna. Great work SIF you did mention science of identity, but it needs to be in capital letters with the words 'Foundation' and 'organisation' included.

The kid who owns and runs the site (great artwork BTW) you need to put on the site that you are affiliated with Science of Identity Foundation, your spiritual master Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa should rate at least a mention in there somewhere too. Perhaps his own paragraph and photo would be ample transparency. This whole non-sectarian thing is not exactly working either. I don't know how often Jivan sings Hallellujah but the rest of the cult sings Hare Krishna 20 000 times a day and throws in the odd christian hymm on christmas. You bow down to Gurudeva, Krishna, Nitai-Gaur and Narashringa breakfast, lunch and dinner and make room on a side table for Jesus on his birthday. I think it's fairly sectarian.

Who Are You? Surely SIF philosophy is more indepth than a paragraph about Jivan?

But it's coming along. It's almost not deceptive. Krishna (and bhagavad-gita) earned a mention and his own gallery. :!: :shock:


However what did I tell you guys about posting shots of your kids on your cult websites. Don't put these kids names and faces to something that you yourself can't stand up for openly, honestly and personally.

Ah, but you see, if all they show is a bunch of old men and women, who are they going to appeal to? Gotta put the sweet young thangs out front. Makes it all seem so much more harmless, not to mention attractive.
Assuming that the intent of the website is to attract, that is?
The end justifies the means, just like in the old days?

Quote
shanti
But you also have to remember that I was
NOT an initiated disciple then...
and, even more importantly...I am female.

:lol: The old vegetarian sausage fest. It's still "Exnay on the guns-hay in front of the wimmen-hay" Sorry my pig vedic is a little rusty.

All the ISKCON/Chriskcon guys were travelling all over the world and how were they affording that? It was a sweet deal for the bramacharis going from hippies to big important globe trotting temple managers and master of all the women he can survey - no wonder they remember it differently and more fondly.

I know several seventies disciples and a point that they all neglected to mention until one tossed it out and then several other confirmed it is that Chris was with Sivananda. Sivananda had lots of money. By his own teachings he could never and should never have been a disciple of ACB in the first place. SoI are very keen to cover that up because it makes Chris look very bad in the Vaishnava community. The other point it raises is how indiscriminately ACB initiated taking disciples of impersonal gurus and all their little impersonalist followers and putting them in charge of others within six months. pfffft that Sid had no influence in ISKCON and he was the good one and always trying to follow ACBs teachings which has been a theme here. He came in and wrecked the place.

With regard to the child abuse that ran rampant through ISKCON so called "left wing" tantras incidentally have no qualms about having sex with children because they subscribe to the archaic belief that they are "initiating" them which is unfortunately still held to this day in a lot of tribal communities including in India. There is information about the group in the RR database. That he was so paranoid about people out to get him could well have had something to do with that he gave a lot of money to ISKCON which was most likely Sivananda money. Secondly the drug ring at Laguna was Chris' followers - largest distributor of LSD on the West Coast. Of course because there was so much illegal cash it's not traceable except for the fact they were spending a lot which they certainly didnt have the jobs or legitimate businesses to provide for.

It's funny that a lot of the little wimmen are ready to talk openly and honestly about the good ol days, Nori Muster comes to mind with ISKCON. Most of the guys are with other gurus and other good little Krishna wives to this day. Apart from the "do nothing but chant" philosophy that leaves the world to run itself (which has done such wonders for the standard of living in India) they dont want the whole religion soiled by association. KC is a very small community and not above dancing with the devil if it gets the job done. There is one Math in particular that has dirt on Sid like you wouldn't believe and they are not talking - not that they are unsympathetic to the children in SoI - but it's their karma. I may be a bitch but please forgive me since this is a sample of the crap that I listen to everyday.

Quote

The few women that did come around were "tolerated".
So I have no clue what the male Chris gang talked about privately...
they were like an exclusive all boys club!

I didn't know that. Was even Katyani not allowed in the boys club?

The boys club on this forum said that homosexuality was taught amongst the group to be religiously wrong in the early days but was not labored. They also attempted to convince us that NONE of the 'boys club' exhibited 'homosexual' tendencies. Not that anyone was asking but the denial was noted. Tusta's love and devotion to Butler, the shot of Sai in borderline drag, to hating all the tillies in ISKCON in the mid-70s. The true meaning of homophobe.

If he was openly stating this to his guru you can be sure his closer male followers knew the attitudes he held.

There were known lesbian disciples in the 90s also. The attitude towards the girl you were talking about was already laid out in Homosexuality: An Identity Crisis.

Butler cleverly claimed that homosexuality and heterosexuality were equally wrong (so the reader didn't perceive him as a bigoted hateful homophobe). Then he says sex in marriage with the goal of having children is pleasing to God and therefore since gay men can't have children they can never be pleasing (Religious sex). He then goes on to state that heterosexual illicit sex is less sinful in marriage (Approval of hetero over homo sex)

So when in the mid-80s he said to this girl that she had to give up being a lesbian or leave and this rule did not apply to the heteros sleeping around she mustn't have realised that this attitude was already laid out earlier in the late 70s or early 80s (whenever the book was published).

It seems understandable that there would be a progression of homophobia but it made no sense to me that he went from SIF holding no homophobic values whatsoever for 20 years and then suddenly wanting to see them hung from trees just to get a politician into office.

Seems he was always a homophobe; but was he always a "Christian"?
From what I'm reading here, he probably applauded the recent rise in homophobia because it supports his own views.
It is a fact his followers use artificial affiliations with various christian sects in order to ride the political bandwagon.
You can't be monotheistic and worship a pantheon at the same time, and Christianity does not recognize JG as a savior.
Being homophobic just puts them more in line with the moral minority.

ACB essentially said that all God personalities were the same including Jesus and that noone need give up their religious beliefs they should just add chanting Hare Krishna to their lives, although I have never seen any example of him saying that Jesus was a pure devotee of Krishna or ISKCON having Jesus' Appearance Day, so if Sid was always a Christian he at least kept a lid on it for a while. Apparently the much denied and hard to get book Jesus Love Krishna was publsihed in 1979. It is on cultofbutler.com bar the cover since the doner was unable to find it. The "so-called Christian" propoganda was going from at least 1984 when the big books were published.

You're right Gabbard took money off the Christians and the mormons and fraternised with Rev. Moon who apparently claims to be Jesus. No integrity.

Speaking of which I thought it might be funny to share the latest about Radha Krishna das - his little page from the Brandon Raynor site has disappeared, although he still has classes booked up until November at least. I still get rude emails and spam from these big brave devotee men :wink: I would like to solve the problem he said, answer any questions he said, wiling to do anything. I called him up last night about SoI thinking my email is a dump for their denial garbage and he spoke very nicely what can I do for you, and then put the phone down. Did he hang up on me, apparently not (this is the funny part) I called back and he said oh sorry the phone cut out, I'm happy to talk with you. Then when I asked him again about answering the hard questions he hasnt even tried to answer yet he just put the phone down again. Now I am not suprised by this since I know what they are like about hearing anything that might pollllute their minds and actually cause them to think - but to lie about it and blame the phone :lol: This is the big brave hero that puts women onto the streets and dressed up as the Grim Reaper to attend a gay pride march in Brisbane holding a sign saying "I'm glad you're gay because it makes my job easier" who used to carve up cows for a living - and yet he is scared to answer a question? SoI may have put up over 1000 spam ads to try to trick google but they cant get the links that are posted here down quick enough.

If the politicians were to openly admit they worshipped a pantheon other than the holy trinity, and admitted that they bow down to a man before they bow down to God, would the Christians vote for them?

Maybe, because they support right wing values like homophobia and hatred of other cultures. A lot of "religious" people seem to have no issue with hypocrisy.
Unlikely that they would vote for a JG follower, though, if they knew. I have heard many Christians say the Hindu gods are devils.

According to the Bible Krishna Consciousness is against the ten commandments :

Quote

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: Ex. 34.17 · Lev. 19.4 ; 26.1 · Deut. 4.15-18 ; 27.15 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[www.bartleby.com]

Christians consider it to be ridiculous/blasphemous not to say that God doesnt have a face (as Chris Butler tries to claim) but that it can be seen - Moses was told that no man can see God's face and live.

There are several Christian organisations which are against yoga asserting (correctly) that it is a religious practice, and some even refer to it as occultism. KC falls into opposition of the New Age in general the assertions that popularising various eastern philosophies leads to a decline in religious principles and morals.

The most common opposition to "new Age" beliefs is based on the "endenic lie" - the lie told by Satan in the Garden of Eden that man (any man can be like God and know the difference between good and evil) [www.frontlinemin.org]

Maybe Christians would still vote for Chris Butler's candidates if they had no choice in order to prevent such an abomination to their sensibilities as gay marriage but I believe it would be unlikely if there was another candidate prepared to uphold these 'values'. Mike Gabbard actually claims to be a Catholic and they are a denomination generally far more militant about their beliefs though, I think they would very much resent the deception and that he would get a lot more opposition from the truth being told.

"There were known lesbian disciples in the 90s also. The attitude towards the girl you were talking about was already laid out in Homosexuality: An Identity Crisis."

okay..
here within lies a good example of the contradictions
that have ALWAYS pervaded Chris' cult.
What is rule supreme for the general masses,
is NOT always applied to all disciples.
Please, BELIEVE on this fact.

There has always been a hierarchy of disciples...always.
The ones that were allowed to skirt the general rules,
and got a bit, if any, chastisement for wrong doings, and nothing more.
No almighty screaming of Chris/Master coming down on their heads...
just private talks... "this doesn't look so good" etc.

This woman I speak of that was gay...
Chris KNEW that when he recruited her...full well.
They were even surfing buddies.
They spoke about if frankly.
She's all...hello, don't think I can do this...
and he's all, it's okay...just be discreet.

He wanted her talent & abilities at the time...period.
She was a great singer, and did several albums for & with Chris.
He was / is like that...
get what he wants from someone...
when they are perhaps no longer "of use"...
or suddenly contradict the latest BS he's peddling..
ditch 'em.