Thank you Dervish for your input. I am still baffled by how an ecstatic condition can be triggered without any verbal suggestion with eyes closed in the presence of a 'guru'. How can chronic pains be cured? It is obvious that something takes over these people as I have seen them shake, yell etc., In this forum I've read much about the harmful effects of TM etc., How about these energy raising meditation? Could this be harmful with prolonged practice? It has already harmed the family integrity and happiness. Thanks.

This is all mental suggestion, in my view.
Hypnosis is used to relieve pain.
There is no need for mystical magic.
The human mind is very powerful, and if people go manic, and "believe" 100% on some guru, they can get some of these "effects".
This "ecstatic condition" is probably some type of mania and hallucination.
For the record, i know of no scientific evidence for the reality of "Kundalini" or things of that manner.

What is really wonderful and mysterious is the wonder of the human mind-body. This has nothing to do with some fake guru.
Notice how NONE of these gurus subject themselves to indepedent scientific tests.
Just a bunch of stories from acolytes.

Coz

Quote

Originally posted by alphaalpha
I am still baffled by how an ecstatic condition can be triggered without any verbal suggestion with eyes closed in the presence of a 'guru'. How can chronic pains be cured? It is obvious that something takes over these people as I have seen them shake, yell etc.,

Cosmophilosopher, thank you very much. How I wish I could truly know what you say to be true. I am seeing for myself how these people go into supposedly ecstatic states. Also the stories they say are all consistent regarding their experiences. Based on some links from just this thread alone I learnt a lot about the addiction that is caused by these surges of energies. My only hope is to find out how to reverse these conditions so people could be normal again. I wish that there is some kind of 'truth in spirituality' law that forces these people to disclose what might happen to people when they take these courses of meditation etc., People are misled into believing something dramatically positive is going to happen and things end up traumatizing entire families and seemingly changing lives forever.

By the way, what i say is just what i take to be accurate. I am not saying my viewpoints are "true", but i do have a strong point of view on things, and i will just speak my mind.

To try and help a loved one get out of a cult, is extremely difficult.

All i would do is try and tell the truth as i see it.
From a laymans point of view, you cannot "reverse" what is going on with another person. Ultimately they will have to decide to change themselves. If there are mental illness issues, then this is something else all together.

I would encourage you to educate yourself about this subject, by reading books, etc.
Here are a couple of links from this website.

[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]

Consider getting professional, experienced counselling to make a plan of action. You won't solve this problem on an internet message board.

Coz

Cosmophilospher, thanks for the advice and the links. The dilemma is that the person claims she is experiencing something that is both blissful and healing. Except for the fact that she needs the constant help of this 'guru' to sustain these 'feelings' and the rest of the family feels that she is so withdrawn and different. Your point about experienced counselling is well taken and we will consider this.

Here is a recent news story explaining the placebo effect in pain relief.
Perhaps these Gurus should just be called Placebo's?
Except placebos are harmless, whereas many gurus have toxic side-effects.

Coz

[www.reuters.co.uk]

Placebo effect is all in the head
Thu 19 February, 2004
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A brain scan study shows the placebo effect is real when it comes to pain, even though it really is all in the head.

People who believed dummy treatments were fighting their pain showed reduced brain activity in areas known to be involved in feeling pain, researchers at Princeton and the University of Michigan said on Thursday.

"What we have shown here in this study is when the placebo effect occurs, there really is something going on in the brain to reduce sensation," said Dr. Kenneth Casey, a neurologist at the University of Michigan and the Ann Arbor Veterans Affairs Health Care System.

The study is in line with other brain research that shows the placebo effect also causes changes in the brains of patients with, for example, depression.

The placebo effect has been known for centuries and the word itself comes from the Latin for "I shall please." Doctors for centuries have prescribed sugar pills to patients they could not otherwise help.

The placebo effect is so strong that medical studies usually must include a "placebo arm" to make sure a new drug truly is working through a unique mechanism.

An estimated 30 percent of patients with a range of conditions will get better simply from the action of taking a pill, getting a shot or otherwise receiving medical treatment.

But if the effects are psychological, they are certainly real. Casey's team has shown that placebos can affect the brain areas that cause the sensation of pain.

"Brain activity is a significant determinant of what we feel, how we feel and in this case of pain, how much we feel," Casey said in a telephone interview.

"When people are expecting the pain to be less, the pain pathways -- those areas in the brain that we know are activated by pain -- show less activity, even though the stimulus is the same."

BRAIN ACTIVITY

Two separate teams used functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI, to watch changes in blood flow in the brains of volunteers. This is a useful, real-time measure of brain function.

The volunteers given either electric shocks or heat -- painful but harmless. When they believed an analgesic cream had been applied to their arms, many rated the pain as less intense -- and the pain circuits in their brain showed less activity.

Writing in the journal Science, they said their two separate trials of a total of 47 volunteers showed the same thing -- people who experienced the placebo effect had the same brain activity as people who really were given analgesics.

Pain-sensitive areas of the brain that were de-activated included the anterior cingulate cortex, the thalamus and the insula.

And the prefrontal cortex showed increased activity, suggesting that this area controls the placebo effect, Casey said.

If scientists can figure out how to exploit this effect, they may come up with better and less harmful treatments for pain. All painkillers and analgesic drugs can have harmful and even deadly side effects.

The Princeton team noted that volunteers who did not experience the placebo effect -- those who were not fooled by the dummy cream -- did not show any changes in brain activity.

Now Casey is seeking funding to see if some people in fact lack some of the brain mechanisms needed to reduce pain. That may explain why some people need higher doses of painkillers than others do.

I think this was at the UCSF Dental School.

In double blind study people who had their wisdom teeth extracted were given either narcotics or a placebo ( a sugar pill).

In a double blind study, the person administering the medication does not know whether the pill is the active drug or the inert drug (placebo).

THe patients then rated their pain over the next couple of hours.

Then, one group of placebo recipients was given an narcotic antagonist. and the other group of placebo recipients was not.

One group of patients given the narcotic got the narcotic antagonist and the other narcotic recipients were not.

The narcotic antagonist eliminated the pain relief experienced both by the placebo recipient and by those given narcotics.

This means placebo response takes place because the patients's faith in the treatment triggers release of naturally occuring opiates within the person's body.

Ecstacy and bliss are chemical reactions, whether we experience them through stimulant drugs (eg. cocaine or amphetamines), the ministrations of a guru, or through a happy experience.

THe guru described by AA is peddling a drug, just as much as a dope dealer is, and he is abusing his talent for bliss by fostering addiction and dependancy among his followers.

He deserves no more respect than a common dope dealer.