Hi Briggs,

Thanks for your testinomy.

I was particularly interested in your statement:
<<<<"Landmark Education Courses are like the next step of evolution. I do believe that evolution and religion can coexist. And the LEC are available to anyone: you don't have to quit a religion in order to do the Landmark Education.">>>>

Later you make reference to Christianity so may I substitute your reference to religion with Christianity - Thanks.

You learnt on the Sunday of the Forum that Life is "empty and meaningless". Hence, all relationships, events and things are objectified. Nothing has a meaning in itself.

Is being born in a refugee camp on the border of Nanibian a neutral event?
Does an abandoned baby have no meaning?

Forum believers say such things as “The only meaning that life has is what you give it”, “You are a blank canvas”, “Life is nothing except what you make it”. So they see us as shapers and creators of own destiny. Forum is built on the belief that a person in the present is able to break the influences and pains of the past. Each moment we hold in our hands the possibility of renewing our lives in ways which liberate us from all limitation. This is a radical vision of human beings. The Landmark Forum is putting human beings at the center of their own universe.

"What if your future was a function of your creation, rather than an extension of your past?" They are saying that we alone are responsible of the things which happen to us. This requires a person to be utterly in control of their past, and their own processes of thinking and "Once a person is able to realize everything about himself, he can create new possibilities with that in mind. That was how The Forum worked".

My questions to you are:
1. If we soley give meaning to life, are we infact Gods?
2. Does your Christian God have meaning?
3. Does your Christian God give meaning to life, meaning to the staving Nabian and the abandoned baby?

One cannot be involved in Landmark and at the same time be conscious of hold christian theological and philosophical understandings without being perturbed. There is a direct conflict between what the christian churches hold to be the meaning of life and what Landmark holds to be the meaning of life.

Christian = meaning of life is given by God
Landmark = there is no meaning of life other than what YOU give it.

Werner Erberd is quoted as saying:
"In actuality, each of us, as the sole creator of our universe, is a God, and because we have created all, everything is as important as everything else. When we’re fully in touch with what already is and accept what is as more important than what isn’t, then all games are over. There’s nothing to do, nowhere to go, everything is perfect". ref: (The Book of est, p. 217)

May I leave you with this to critically think over.

Also as regards to relationships - the unconditional love and forgiveness to families, friends and significant others does not last and I speak from personal experience.

My advice - slow down a little and reflect.
Oz

Thanks to all for their comments. As I am based IN LONDON, I am specifically looking for people over here who will be able to tell me about their experiences.

My proposal for this doc is simply to listen to people and what they have to say ref the experience. I am not attending myself, because the doc is not about me in any way. As the maker of the doc, I am simply looking to see what people say, and see how this process 'changes' or not as the case may be.
If anyone has any info on contacts in London, that would be very much appreciated.

Dear Oz,

Thank you for your insight. The questions you post to me are questions I've been trying to answer. As far as Christianity is concerned, I've been struggling with that for some time. I often think Christianity has made me a worse person than a better person, by painting the world black and white. So the truth is I'm quite confused now. The Landmark forum didn't really help me in that area.
I see the distinction between Christianity and the Landmark. Right now I'm very interested in LISTENING to people who have experienced both. No, not people who have opinions about either or both, but people who have been through what I'm going through.
I'll think about what you wrote and write what I think later.
Please, come back to check in. Thanks again.

- Briggs.

If anyone has any articles to share, please do. Here's one:

[abcnews.go.com]

The article Briggs posted is about as good as it gets for Landmark in the press.

Anyone doing meaningful serious research will find that Landmark/EST has received far more negative press. And that historically, the piece linked above is the exception, not the rule.

See [www.culteducation.com]

What's interesting about this report, is that even though it is essentially a positive somewhat promotional account, the same old issues arise about the "manipulative" and/or "coercive" nature of Landmark.

And the "c" word ("cult") also comes up.

Briggs,

What you are feeling is orchestrated by Landmark. I felt the same way after my Sunday portion of the Forum was finished, and I could not wait to meet on Tuesdau with all the nice people at Forum. Even though I was completely aware there was not much basis for what I was feeling, I was happy as a clam, called a lot of people on MOnday and gushed. They all thought I was nuts. I couldn't really tell them WHY I was so happy.

Quote

The key to transformation is being open and sincere. That causes you to share very intimate stuff about your life. And having that exposed to the outside world would be something completely devastating. I sure hope Landmark does what it can to punish anyone who breaks the rules and brings into the sessions any recording devices.

The first three sentences above contradict themselves. Do you mean sharing intimate details with a LF audience is the key to transformation? If so, why? Where and when do you stop sharing in order to be transformed? If everything is meaningless, what do you do when someone shares intimate details about themselves to you?

I'm just a little amused at the idea of LEC personnel "punishing" someone for bringing in recording devices. It's all meaningless anyway, right? Briggs, these folks are not authoritarian figures. I see a meltdown down the road with your ambivalence about Christianity and your adoration of LEC. Take a deep breath and put your critical thinking to good use.

Dear Hope,

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you just "didn't get it", even though you apparently have been through the forum.

First off, your comment:

>>>"If everything is meaningless, what do you do when someone shares intimate details about themselves to you?"

Where in the world did you get that from? Nowhere in the forum did I hear the phrase "everything is meaningless".

Everything is not meaningless. It seems as though you entirely missed the final message. And perhaps you missed a whole lot more.

>>>"I'm just a little amused at the idea of LEC personnel "punishing" someone for bringing in recording devices. It's all meaningless anyway, right?"

No, it isn't. I don't know where you got that. You're clearly missing the point.

>>>"I see a meltdown down the road with your ambivalence about Christianity and your adoration of LEC. Take a deep breath and put your critical thinking to good use."

Well, I wouldn't say I adore Landmark. I just think what they offer in the forum alone is very powerful stuff. So I do wish that everyone would check it out. I don't wish that people follow it or agree with it - I simply wish that people would be exposed to it so they have formulate an educated opinion. Otherwise opinionated people who speak of Landmark are just talking out of their ass.

I do think I am using my critical thinking. I have, really. During the forum and ESPECIALLY after the forum. I have been on a roller-coaster, to tell you the truth. But that's expected, I think. Like I said, the stuff they present is very powerful, to me without a doubt. I also went on an emotional roller-coaster when I became a Christian, but that's a whole other story. Anyway, maybe I'll be disappointed with Landmark. It doesn't matter. I'm sticking with it for now and that's a rational choice, not an emotional one. Besides, I already got my money's worth. So I know I won't be suing the Landmark. Whether I create new possibilities for my future or not, is irrelevant at this point. Just the stuff I learned during the forum (which was a new concept to me) was worth my money. I also had a great time and enjoyed every minute. I learned about people, and I learned about humans. I also learned about the power of the human mind. Maybe other people didn't learn the same things, but I did. I also really enjoyed meeting people of many different walks of life. I'd have paid money for that experience. And I made some new friends, which is a bonus.

Everyone's experience at the forum is different. Some people get really mixed up, like the guy who lost his job because he was telling everyone about the forum. I appreciate the advice, but come on... have some common sense. Even if you're living in a Matrix word, you actions still have consequences.

There's a lot more to say, but I stop here. I'm not in way over my head, just so everyone knows. I'll continue to go to the seminars because it's free and I've enjoyed it so far. Many people here are cynical and resigned. It's good to know. But I also know people who have been with Landmark for many years. My friend who introduced me has been doing it for 3 years now. And he's an amazing guy. Somehow he gets it without going overboard. And he's got measurable results, like an increase in revenue for his business which is a result of actions he took and would not have taken if it weren't for the influence of the Landmark education (the forum, in this particular case). I repeat, what people get out of Landmark is different for everyone.

Nice reading what you guys have to say, though.

- Briggs.

Briggs:

You do seem to be way in over your head and becoming increasingly embedded in Landmark.

Your testimonials almost sound religious. In this sense Landmark is exposed as a philosophy or belief system, rather than an educational program. And the organization uses people like you to proselytize or promote its indoctrination, much like a missionary.

But the crucial difference between a religious organization and Landmark is that religious groups readily admit this and openly discuss their process and "paradigm" with potential converts.

Landmark instead, much like Scientology, is secretive and obfuscates its agenda.

It appears that you like Landmark because it makes you feel good, which is an important point.

That is, the results at Landmark are subjective not objective.

Didn't you ever wonder why there isn't even one peer-reviewed scientific study that has been published demonstrating that Landmark's programs have measurable results?

After all these years why is there nothing?

And Landmark certainly has the means to fund, conduct and produce meaningful research.

Why have they chosen not to produce any objective evidence to support their claims that lasting "breakthroughs" are achieved through their programs? All they offer is anecdotal evidence, testimonials such as you have offered.

And as you should know the so-called "Harvard Study," was little more than a classroom exercise, which was later disclaimed by the university.

See [www.culteducation.com]

But there has been research about large group awareness training and its inherent problems by professionals with credentials.

Read the following paper produced by a clinical psychologist:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Landmark participants have had breakdowns and at times have been hospitalized. Subsequently, lawsuits have been filed for personal injuries. This appears to be a direct result of the problems cited in the above linked study.

Why do you think Landmark now has paperwork devoted to protecting itself from legal action? Don't you remember signing such paperwork, which was required before you entered into the Forum?

This paperwork limits a participant's rights regarding legal claims against Landmark. It is in part an agreement in advance to "binding arbitration" if any injury arises due to their programs.

Wake up and smell the coffee Briggs.

If a social service agency, community program, church, mental health professional or support group required such paperwork from participants it would be specious to say the least, likely to be criticized and exposed publicly.

Obviously "breakthroughs" can be sought within the safety of a more credible and reasonable setting, such as a support group moderated by a professional with meaningful credentials or in one-on-one therapy sessions with someone who has responsibility to a state licensing board.

Landmark is essentially offering "one size fits all" group therapy that purposefully promotes a specific philosophy without important and meaningful safety precautions, such as licensing or professional credentials based upon educational requirements for its facilitators.

And the mountain of bad press Landmark has historically received; not to mention testimony of damage on this board and in the courts, clearly exposes what's wrong with the Landmark approach.

Do you get it?

If you can't get this, it seems to me that your common sense and critical thinking may have become impaired by Landmark's "education," which again is one of the consistent complaints about the results produced by this controversial organization's programs.

Dear Moderator, my response is inline:

>>>Your testimonials almost sound religious. In this sense Landmark is exposed as a philosophy or belief system, rather than an educational program. And the organization uses people like you to proselytize or promote its indoctrination, much like a missionary.

Maybe so. Maybe I'm a victim. Maybe they know how to control people's minds. I'm trying to figure that out while at the same time striving to keep an open mind.

>>>But the crucial difference between a religious organization and Landmark is that religious groups readily admit this and openly discuss their process and "paradigm" with potential converts.

Religions focus more on what happens in the afterlife. Landmark focuses more on people's future (that is, creating new possibilities for your future)

>>>Landmark instead, much like Scientology, is secretive and obfuscates its agenda.

I’m not sure they’re secretive. Anyone can join. Anyone interested can be introduced to the “education”, and the presentation is free as far as I know.

>>>It appears that you like Landmark because it makes you feel good, which is an important point.

Nope, that is not it. As a matter of fact, Landmark made me feel really upset and depressed, and I still feel that way. But I’m intrigued by what I learned in the forum. What they presented makes a lot of sense. And you can apply it to your real life and get immediate results. It’s not like religion, that teaches you to live in a certain way so that you can reap the benefits (or go to Heaven) in the afterlife.

>>>That is, the results at Landmark are subjective not objective.

>>>Didn't you ever wonder why there isn't even one peer-reviewed scientific study that has been published demonstrating that Landmark's programs have measurable results?

I’m new to Landmark, so I’m still learning about it. Have you ever participated? I’m sure you can measure the results. I know several people who have. Really.

>>>After all these years why is there nothing?

I’ll have to investigate and research more.

>>>And Landmark certainly has the means to fund, conduct and produce meaningful research.

>>>Why have they chosen not to produce any objective evidence to support their claims that lasting "breakthroughs" are achieved through their programs? All they offer is anecdotal evidence, testimonials such as you have offered.

>>>And as you should know the so-called "Harvard Study," was little more than a classroom exercise, which was later disclaimed by the university.

>>>See [www.culteducation.com]

This seems to be a broken link.

>>>But there has been research about large group awareness training and its inherent problems by professionals with credentials.

>>>Read the following paper produced by a clinical psychologist:

>>>See [www.culteducation.com]

>>>Landmark participants have had breakdowns and at times have been hospitalized. Subsequently, lawsuits have been filed for personal injuries. This appears to be a direct result of the problems cited in the above linked study.

Oh well, what can I say? Landmark isn’t for everyone. I don’t wish it to be for everyone. Like I said, I simply wish everyone would TRY it.

>>>Why do you think Landmark now has paperwork devoted to protecting itself from legal action? Don't you remember signing such paperwork, which was required before you entered into the Forum?

So they don’t get sued. I did sign the paperwork, willingly. I don’t plan on suing Landmark. I volunteer to go there. It’s not like they’re forcing me to do something I don’t want to. I think many of the suits against Landmark are bogus. Nowadays people sue others for pretty much anything. Few people will step up and take responsibility for bad things that happen to them.

>>>This paperwork limits a participant's rights regarding legal claims against Landmark. It is in part an agreement in advance to "binding arbitration" if any injury arises due to their programs.

Wake up and smell the coffee Briggs.

>>>If a social service agency, community program, church, mental health professional or support group required such paperwork from participants it would be specious to say the least, likely to be criticized and exposed publicly.

>>>Obviously "breakthroughs" can be sought within the safety of a more credible and reasonable setting, such as a support group moderated by a professional with meaningful credentials or in one-on-one therapy sessions with someone who has responsibility to a state licensing board.

>>>Landmark is essentially offering "one size fits all" group therapy that purposefully promotes a specific philosophy without important and meaningful safety precautions, such as licensing or professional credentials based upon educational requirements for its facilitators.

>>>And the mountain of bad press Landmark has historically received; not to mention testimony of damage on this board and in the courts, clearly exposes what's wrong with the Landmark approach.

Please, share the “Mountain of bad press” they’ve gotten. I have never seen it. Honestly. Would love to see some REAL evidence from people here and not just talk.

>>>Do you get it?

I’m trying to.
>>>you can't get this, it seems to me that your common sense and critical thinking may have become impaired by Landmark's "education," which again is one of the consistent complaints about the results produced by this controversial organization's programs.

I don’t think so. But again, how would I know if I’ve been brainwashed?
If Landmark is so evil as you describe, then why don’t you take on the task of exposing them? I’m sure there’s something you can do that’d be more effective then criticizing their methods in an Internet forum. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But encourage you to take ACTION and make a real difference that matters.

I have to write more about Landmark:

I am still disturbed by what I learned during the forum. However, some things in my life have already changed for the better. I have broken several bad habits that I couldn't break before. And I've been a Christian, so that's what's most surprising. Christianity is supposed to give me all the power I need to make changes in my life (that is, the Holy Spirit). Anyway, some of the bad habits I'm referring to I didn't even know I had. I have a bad habit of being late for everything, for example. I never did realize what a terrible habit that was until I came to the forum. For the first time in my life I've stopped being late for things.

Call Landmark what you will. I do not know if it is a cult, but I don't think so. Like someone mentioned earlier, Landmark brings you closer to your family members. I have a brother who's involved in the cult "Twelve Tribes" and what's happened to him is just the opposite. He's no allowed to go anywhere outside his community unless he gets special permission from the leaders. So if he's brainwashed (and I believe he is), there's nothing our family can do about that.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that the forum has taught me some honorable things. Mainly, I got a big lesson on Integrity and the importance of having it. Boy, if Landmark is a cult it's one of the best ones out there. Having Integrity will take you a long ways, and automatically make your life better, I belive. I've been struggling with a low-paying job I don't enjoy and I'm finally having a good attitude about it. It's really up to me to change things. But having a bad attitude will not get me very far in my workplace. I know this is common sense, but most people don't have the strength to do what is necessary. People prefer to blame others like society, the government, just about anyone else for the problems they have in life.

Anyway, I'm going to write an essay about my forum experience this weekend. I hope to share it here if that's okay.

- Briggs