oneself enlightened and setting up as a guru.


'Lotus Feet of Clay: A Reluctant Mystic Looks at Spiritual Movements' by John Wren-Lewis

[www.google.com]

The author, a scientist named John Wren-Lewis, experienced enlightenment not as a result of virtue, or spiritual practice, but as a result of nearly dying from a dose of poison by someone who tried to rob him in Thailand.

Wren-Lewis found that this state took time to adjust to, and that he was a calmer, happier person--but only as long as he did not drift away from the experience. If he did so, he became subject to all the human frailties and ego fixations. And, as he wryly put it, he could not hold himself up as an example for others to follow, because he could not in conscience recommend that people endanger themselves by taking a near lethal dose of poison!

His insights about enlightenment and the social consequences of proclaiming oneself enlightened & attracting followers are highly valuable.

According the Wren-Lewis, the social problem with becoming an enlightened guru is it is a role that traps the person in an assymmetrical, dehumanizing position, in which he or she cannot own up to mistakes, arrogance is fostered, eccentricities ignored or indulged by followers. You're surrounded by people, but emotionally isolated.

When you're trapped on a pedestal, you are not free to make mistakes, own up to those mistakes, you cannot be questioned or challenged by others. You lose peer relationships. No one can relate to you in a normal manner.

You stop growing, become flash frozen in the position you took when you 'became enlightened', feel attached, and are incapable of learning anything new.

[b:5351bf052b]An environment that supports learning is one that encourages regular re-assessment of one's beliefs and opinions--whether these remain valid or have become a hindrence.[/b:5351bf052b]

An infallible enlightened guru surrounded by obsequious disciples becomes a prison-inmate of the enlightenment industry.

The guru's followers (rarely its a her), sacrifice so much on the guru's behalf, that they lack any incentive to question whether the guru, and by extension, their sacrifice, is worthwhile---and, over time, whether the commitment remains worthwhile.

For a recurring problem reported by alumni of bad groups or hurtful relationships is that these usually confer benefits (or ecstacy) at the very beginning, but later, over time leave you feeling worse off--but you hate admitting that you feel worse because you're encouraged to remember past bliss and ignore present misery.

Many groups congratulate the questing spirit that leads us to join the group; once we join, we are under subtle pressure to abandon that same questing spirit, which means we forget how to question the group and find our way to the exit door if the group later turns sour.

Do not be content to read just the excerpts below. Dr Wren-Lewis' entire article is worth close attention.

Wren-Lewis writes: 'I know about this from personal experience; some of my worst lapses into impatience come when I'm wanting to get on with writing about God-consciousness! But because I'm not claiming to be a Master, no-one gets sucked in and I'm soon forced to come off it.

'When the Master-disciple relationship has been established,
disciples have to go along with the Master's rationalizations or
abandon the hope they've placed in him.

'My own reason for regarding the Master-concept as pernicious is that it imposes an almost irresistable temptation on guru and disciples alike to keep quiet about and/or rationalize away any experience that might detract from the guru's claim to infallible authority justifying surrender.

'The trouble is that once such a system is swallowed, the guru cannot admit to lapses without completely discrediting his claim to have any enlightenment to pass on. So from the highest possible motive, a sincere desire to share his God-consciousness, he is tempted to rationalize, probably even to himself.

'Sexual advances toward attractive disciples become tantric exercises or studies of the chakras, a beer-belly (vide. Adi Dam) is due to the descent of shakti-power, outbursts of temper are to weaken disciples egos or to test their devotion, collection of money is needed for spreading the Word, gifts are accepted because the disciples wish to show their devotion, and so on through the whole hackneyed catalog.

'The classic illustration of this is the pathetic spectacle of spiritual movements insisting that reports of less-than-perfect behavior on the Master's part are either wicked lies put about by enemies or, if evidence cannot be denied, are explainable as the Master's deliberate attempts to shock followers out of uptightness with outrageous behavior, or test their capacity for total surrender.

'Before my near death experience I used to seize eagerly upon such scandel-stories as evidence that gurus were either frauds or madmen or both. Now I know the explanation is more complicated; a few frauds and madmen there may be, but I'm quite sure now that some of the teachers who've been involved in scandals do have firsthand experience of God-consciousness. Things they say or write, often some of their little stories, carry the ring of a truth that couldn't have been culled from secondhand sources.

'And for me as an outsider there is no conflict here. In the first place, I know from my own firsthand experience that God- consciousness doesn't abolish human appetites. When I'm in it I don't lose my taste for meat or wine or good company or humor or detective fiction--I actually enjoy them more than ever before. I don't cease to enjoy sexual feelings, nor do I see anything inherently dirty about money.'

Even though Wren-Lewis was convinced that he did nothing to become enlightened, I suggest that his entire career as a conscientious scientist, good citizen/subject of the UK, friend and spouse, prepared him, not for enlightenment, but to become a sane, humane and responsible custodian of such an experience.

Significantly, Wren-Lewis, says he had not been a 'seeker'. He had been an investigator, his role models had been other scientists, and he was accustomed to asking and being asked hard questions. On a day to day basis he submitted to the painful discipline of abandoning cherished hypotheses if they did not stand up to testing.

The best thing to do when investigating enlightenment is not prayer or fasting, but to read and master Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector

[www.xenu.net]

and resolve that, whether you're enlightened or not, you are determined to remain a human being, shoulder to shoulder with all human beings--not aspire to lord it over anyone or demand special priviliges at the expense of others.

Aghenanda Bharati's book The Light at the Center, cited by the authors of both articles, is highly valuable. It was published in 1976 and went out of print very quickly, probably because the author kicked and barbecued too many sacred cows. (Bharati did think that both TM (Maharishi) and Krishna Consciousness (Prabhupada) were authentic, but he published his book before reports of abuse in this organizations had become available.)

If you are at all interested in 'enlightenment', yoga and especially if you think you want to go to India and find a guru, you would do very well to get a copy of Bharati's book. He may upset you and anger you, but his information will help you avoid many pitfalls.

Though Dr Wren Lewis said he did not have any mystical inclination prior to his near death experience, it is interesting that he did not report feeling worried whether he'd incurred any neurological /psychological damage that could have mimicked enlightenment. This was after a medical crisis during which he had lost consciousness, been hospitalized and nearly died.

Dr Wren-Lewis reports that he began avidly reading the mystical literature to make sense of his condition, but he does not mention whether he consulted any Hindu or Buddhist teachers, nor did he mention whether he arranged to be examined by a psychiatrist or neurologist.

After such a crisis I would have had myself checked by a neurologist and at least one psychiatrist, if only to make sure my central nervous system had not been damaged and that I had no lingering neurological impairment that would hamper my ability to operate a motor vehicle or use machinery.

In science, it is standard protocol to test and rule out common, likely causes for a condition, before considering more exotic explanations. (Occam's Principle)

The next step for Wren Lewis would have been to consult some experienced Hindu and Buddhist teachers and ask them to test him.

(NOTE) *Please let us know if Dr. Wren Lewis has published any medical/scientific assessments of his condition, and we will revise this essay accordingly-Corboy

This is a dynamite thread!

Explains so clearly the (deemed desired) results of those who have excessively meditated for years, depending upon their meditation practice. Attempting to not be be attached to even their own personality.

Thank you, it was a very interesting article! I have met some people who belong to Hare Krishna group and that excatly how they seem to be, they have lost their own personalities.

If that really is the goal of many of these religious and "spiritual" groups I think that is really dangerous! Depersonalizing them! Those group leaders should be put in jail.

Wow. Corboy, your posts are really fascinating.

While reading them I am constantly reminded of my experiences in AA;
While there was no single Guru, the group as an entity acted in an "enlightened" guru-like fashion, and all the other pieces were in place;
the disorientation (caused by withdrawal from drugs and alcohol, the disconcertingly intimate exposure to a new group of people, a bombardment of new ideas, and claims of direct communication with God).
The experience was devastating and difficult to relate to others in an understandable fashion. Thanks for your clarifications.

Quote

Repetition can elicit depersonalisation, for instance; meditation involving repeating a mantra or concentrating on an object, certain kinds of dancing, and even Yoga. Some research conducted into depersonalisation has apparently used these activities to cue episodes of derealisation. Consequently, people who practice repetitive rituals and meditation in order to achieve 'enlightenment' or 'cosmic ecstasy', may actually be triggering depersonalisation as opposed to transcending an Earthly paradise.

[www.artsci.co.uk]

I just ran across this quote on a site dealing with depersonalization and derealization, reminded me of our conversations here.


I still to this day experience symptoms like this, reading and researching it helps.

Sarah

the cult I was in encouraged hours of "seeking the spirit" one time I did it ..I saw a white light and imense fear I heard a voce in my inner being say "stop now" and I didn't and all the sudden imese fear overcome me and I felt though I have reached the land of no return and for months on end I felt hollow, soul-less like the tin man on wizzard of Oz....I thought I was going to hell and felt like death was right next my ear..

I am learning not to engage in so much inner concemplation because that tends to cause this state to reamerge..however I overcame the state by anti-psychotics ..however if I stop taking them the state reoccurs

Very "enlightning" information on enlightment

I took a class on religion in college and I learned that Buddha or Siddhara whats his name...echieved this state after siting under a tree..half starved from "navel-picking"

So is buddhism a religion of dissociative disorder

Also this state allows people to be easly brainwashed

JoAnne

If you want to learn more, there's a terrific book by Brad Warner entitled Hardcore Zen where he makes this very clear.

Buddha spoke of attaining freedom from suffering 'In this very body, in this very life.'

'In this very body'--that's the opposite of dissociation.

**The way to test [i:2d96a9c4f3]any [/i:2d96a9c4f3]group or spiritual practice is investigate whether it leads to dissociation or whether it brings you into your body, into your full range of emotions, brings you into the present moment.

Anything that causes you to feel dissociated or spacy is best avoided, no matter how famous the leader or how lovely the bliss experiences might be.

What makes investigation complex is that material from any honorable spiritual tradition can be misapplied and used for dissociative purposes, just the way many medications are healing when prescribed for very specific purposes but become poisonous if prescribed in excessive dosages, for the wrong conditions.

One can take material from Christianity and use it for dissociative purposes, or use that same material to bring us home to ourselves.

One can also take material from Buddhism or any other tradition and turn it into a recipe for dissociation or a recipe for genuinely waking up.

The tricky part is learning to tell the difference--but, you're now learning to tell that difference.

A prpperly trained teacher or group will teach us how to recognize when we are dissociating and how to prevent this.

Pursuing altered states is NOT genuine Buddhist practice--Dogen Zenji, founder of the Soto Zen Buddhist sect, specifically warned of the hazards of 'gaining mind'--that is states of mind in which we crave to attain special states.

So the story goes, Sakyamuni Buddha tried to find liberation from suffering by using all the ascetic practices available to the spiritual seekers of his time. He left home and became a yogi, living in the forest with other ascetics. But he discovered that harsh methods, such as starvation and strenuous meditation did not help him, only left him weaker. In some of the stories, Shakyamuni collapsed from starvation and was revived when a woman in the neighborhood came by, had compassion for his plight and fed him.

It was when Shakyamuni stopped starving himself, resumed eating, and practiced a quiet meditation practice that he solved his questions. According to some accounts, the other yogis rejected him because he abandoned harsh ascetism--they accused him of becoming a glutton.

Buddhism emphasizes what is called the middle way--one doesnt live in a way that is sloppy and mindless, but one avoids harsh methods as well.

All genuine methods of spiritual practice avoid dissociation--in fact, this is a very good way to test whether a particular method is worth investigating.

Another good rule of thumb is that a helpful practice enables us to be present to all states of mind--you are [b:2d96a9c4f3]not [/b:2d96a9c4f3]taught to value some states of mind while rejecting others.

Any practice that values certain states of mind or emotion while devaluing or fearing other states of mind or emotion will very likely lead to further bondage, not freedom.

Another thing to look for is whether a group or practice makes itself accountable to an objective set of ethical guidelines--honesty, not harming others, etc. Genuine Zen is always practiced in the context of the Buddhist ethical precepts which, among other things, forbid stealing, intoxication, cruel speech and behavior. In some Zen sects when people take vows for lay ordination they swear that even if they become Buddhas, they will continue to follow the ethical guidelines.

Some people have used Zen riddles to justify unethical behavior, but this is a perversion of genuine Zen practice.

So thats another thing to monitor--whether a group or tradition makes itself accountable to ethics.

And, any good method of spiritual practice must include kindness and respect for our bodies, along with our minds and emotions.

thank you so much for setting the record straight..you are so smart....how did your learn so much about all this??

JoAnne

Quote
corboy
Depersonalization is a dissociative disorder.

[www.depersonalization.info]

As I read the article I was struck by how much of it resembled various accounts by persons who report on what they 'enlightenment' experiences.

True enlightenment is rare. Depersonalization is not uncommon.

If anyone comes to your town claiming to be enlightened, you have every right to ask whether this is so, or whether they are in the grip of some mundane psychological state.

"Enlightenment?" what do you, or anyone else, mean by "enlightenment?"

In the criminal enterprise known as "Scientology," their form of "enlightenment" (being "clear") is clinically known as the disassociated state. One loses one's ability to think, and one feels like "floating" and being "out of the body." While this state is a sign of pathology, Scientology Inc. strives to inflict it upon its victims as a positive goal to be met, regardless of the psychic damage.