It's the natural flow. Mythology, history and heresay can be invaluable resources for those seeking more understanding than their own experiences allow. I accept that our responsibility as the living human race is to create and integrate new modes of thinking and behaviour. It's a dynamic flow and it's been happening since we sat down and admired the first sunset, learned to build fires and map the stars. I fully accept that some of our thinking (and sometimes large parts) is devoted to tackling the complexity of human experience and knowledge, and putting some sort of jigsaw puzzle together. A new mythology. A way to wrestle the deep, abstract ideas and feelings that are intrinsic to our natures. To find a kind of unity, I suppose, with self and with others; within and without and towards infinity(?). I mean, we've got to live in this world so we better learn to get along (part of a Universal Dogma?). Perhaps, we've become very sensitive and defensive - driven mad by the plague of personal liability, 'Oh, my, I've slipped and twisted my ankle ... I better sue someone!' But the point is that all belief systems are derivative of something much older. And, of course, there must have been the inklings of an original time (the first moment) when we started shadow boxing with the world around us ...

All I can say is keep the dialogue happening. It's our only hope ... :)

Black and red are Satans colors that is why Satanic webb sites are in black and red HS

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Jack Oskar Larm
Okay, no need for an answer.

But why don't Satanists have better graphic designers?

All that black and red. I really hate cliche.

Seems like there are still people lost in thrash, feedback and spinal tap.

Like I said, we all need a hobby (yeah, I know it's a cliche). :)

Yea and dont forget about the anti-jos group and the SiJOS they are just as bad as the JOS when it comes to disrespect and hurting people emotionaly :cry:

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kath
Let's stick to mocking the Joy of Satan lol :D There's plenty there to be getting on with to critique :)

[www.angelfire.com] Diane Vera has some good essays explaining theistic satanism with articles for those from other faiths- christianity, paganism etc. Actually an intelligent site about Satanism :shock: I would recommend it if you want to learn more. She mocks the JoS too and is concerned by them.

I'm afraid there's still black and red though :D

Yea they are a bunch of weirdos :roll:

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Jack Oskar Larm
Fair enough :oops:

It's just so difficult, looking over their material, not to see a bunch of cliches and stereotypes.

Greetings all!

I've just recently joined this forum, and thought I should post under this topic. Mainly because I am the former Reverend Jon (I wrote two of the articles on ex-High Priest Dann's JOS expose, though that was a long time ago so I feel they are likely so somewhat low quality). I am not a member of SiJOS or any anti-JOS board, I preferred to distance myself from them entirely, and am rather thankful they forgot about me rather quickly (though this was probably because I didn't really have any actual dirt on them, unlike Dann - as we both 'defected' at the same time, and indeed, in collusion). So, Why am I talking about the JOS? Nostalgia, perhaps. That and I study religion at university and intend to lecture in it, and NRMs hold a certain intirgue due to my having been in one for approximately two and a half years of my life. Oh, just to add an age qualification, I'm currently 22 - and will turn 23 in May of this year)

Firstly my reasons for leaving were more to-do with Andrea/Maxine's political affiliations rather than her religious ones, that and her constant double-standards and brainwashing of innocent children. I have notihng against the JOS beliefs as they are, though perhaps some of them appear rather ludicrous most of the time. That constant scapegoating, and hate-mongering also bothered me, though I view all Abrahamic monotheism as, in essence, wrong, I can concur that it has done both great good and great harm to the world. I should probably state that I no longer consider myself Satanist, nor practice, and am well, healthy, not-smote by deity/ies, and generally going somewhere with my life. I am also not a Nazi, I am a strong-believer in multicultrualism, taking the Nietzschean view that a community needs an influx of external blood/culture/etc in order to stay virulent and versatile. While I am white, i would nto say I hold much pride in it - only slightly more than I do in being English, and believe me, that's really not a lot.

Anyway, on the JOS beliefs. I would not really say that the JOS Satan has anything much in common with the Hammer House of Horror Satan, or the Christian one (aside from being generally angry and the opponent of the Christian God). The JOS is, in my opinion, a form of Militant Paganism with an Abrahamic veneer, largely inherited from the extremely polarised religious views found in the USA - i.e. it is a creature of its times. They use Judeo-Christian names for some tihngs, but generally this is under the auspices of some form of antagonism. They, when you boil it down, only refer to the JOS vision of Satan as 'Satan' because they oppose Abrahamic religion in general (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and appropriate derivatives).

What is this vision of Satan? The JOS holds that Satan is, ultimately, a loving creator god of humanity (except, apparently, the Jews). he is the most powerful, but not the all-powerful, member of a race of extraterrestrial beings called, by them, the gods. This is, as has been stated, derived from the Von Daniken/Sitchinite school of thought (and considering Sitchin is Jewish I find that rather ironic and amusing). satan punishes his enemies, helps his allies, and generally works for the benefit of humanity. While in practice this translates as "works for the benefit of Andrea/Maxine and her Nazi ambitions for world domination" is completely irrelevant - this is still the fundamental belief. Previously a member of this group asserted that this belief in itself was sick, however I would contend that the Abrahamic god commits far more genocide and atrocity than Satan ever has, especially within the context of scripture (in fact, I do not believe Satan kills a single person directly, only by 'misleading' them into fighting Yahweh who promptly casts them into eternal suffering). The reason I went into Satanism in the first place was because I read the Bible (at age 16, I was raised Athiest) and thought "This is one evil bastard, anyone who opposes him must be the good guy." While I now generally abhor such manichaean views of reality, this, at age 16, was my initial reaction. My view of the Abrahamic god, has, while softened, not changed that much for better or for worse.

Nevertheless, the JOS represents (theologically) a synthesis of rather anachronistic ancient readings of Paganism and a kind of Anti-Christian counter-movement - a more violent strain of the same dissatisfaction with Christianity that spawned the numerous white-light New Age religions and various NRMs. Politically, her Nazi insinuations could be detected as far back as its founding, should one have read the signs. I didn't realise this until it was sprung on me (I was one of the 'chosen few' they revealed it to, approximately a month or so before it blew into the main groups), however once it had been I thought back and realised she had been building up to it for a long time. Her representation of Satan as a white male is a classic example, especially when combined with her view of him as the genetic originator of humanity - "Father" - as this would imply the whites, especially the so-called 'Aryans', were genetically closer to the gods. She also liked to make random off-hand comments about her 'Nazi historian' husband (I loved how she used the phrase 'Nazi historian' so most people would take it as 'a historian specialising in nazi germany' rather than 'a 'historian' who is a nazi' - his alleged statement that Rome could have landed someone on the moon if given a bit longer shows the level of his historical knowledge I think - while they had medical techniques that weren't rivaled until WWI, the moon is a bit of a giant leap).

I'm rambling a bit, however I should probably emphasise one key element of the JOS system. A lot of people find it humourous, dangerous, evil, twisted, sick, concerning, etc. However, as a former believer, I need to state a simple fact: it is <i>intoxicating</i> - dangerously so. It combines all the hubris and self-exhaltation of LaVeyan Satanism, with the 'Chosenness' of Judaism, with the militancy of Radical Islam. For a commited member of the JOS, you are a God-in-training - an agent of world change - every meditation, every action you perform, contributes to something far greater than you. You are not a human being, but an implement of divine will and retribution. You find the JOS, because Satan has somehow 'chosen' you to find it. ALL your previous incarnations have been building to this critical moment when you will change the world. Everyone wants to be, in-some-way, immortal, and the JOS offers the promise of it on a silver plate - nominally, spiritually, earthly, etc. the huge emphasis on 'spiritual warfare' (borrowed from Exorcists and other Christian groups) gives the believer a combat high, probably akin to the rush a soldier gets on the battlefield. This is what a truly dedicated follower of the JOS experiences, and this what makes it most dangerous. Fortunately there aren't many people so deeply ingrained into the machine that is the JOS. To be honest, if the JOS actually managed to get some semblance of offline power in the world, I would be very afraid - especially when you combine that kind of mentality with neo-nazism.

Anyway, that's my comments on the JOS. For now at least.

Jon

So, my question is how can Satan (or its likeness) be considered a deity worthy of worship?

Without knowing more than I do, it would seem that any person or entity could be elevated to the status of a god or goddess: 8) gandalf, :shock: yoda, :wink: spiderman, :?: Uluru, :twisted: Mickey Mouse ... I think you get the drift.

Miss Ann, could you direct me to better information?

Well, your statement is, in some way, a valid point. technically *anything* can be elevated to the level of deity. I mean, if we go back way-back-when, generally natural occurences such as thunder, lightning, rain, earthquakes were considered to be either deities in themselves or the acts of deities.

Take for exmaple the japanese notion of 'kami' - though often translated as 'god/s', 'kami' is essentially a numinous quality possessed by people/places/items/deities, etc - it's non-specific. Therefore a particularly beautiful tree or rock formation (e.g. Uluru), can be venerated as a manifestation of some element of divine power.

Take the writer of V for vendetta, Alan Moore - he worships a snake god called Glycon, which almost everyone historical and contemporary, including himself, acknowledges was simply invented. One can elevate whatever they choose to the status of a god - take the Hindu sacred cow, which is essentially a throwback to the cattle-herding aryans who invaded millennia ago and brought the caste system.

What makes Satan worthy of worship? Well it depends on how you view Satan - evidently Miss Ann's conception of Satan, and the JOS', is very different from the general Christian perception, though it bears certain similarities. If one means Satan in the typically Christian sense - as the agent of evil, wickedness, corruption and moral degeneracy in the world, then no - but generally speaking this is a later, developed tradition, and holds very little basis in scripture (with the plausible exceptions of Job, where he acts as an agent of Yahweh, and Revelation, where his sole acts are ones of alleged deceit ultimately culminating in divine retribution).

Turning your question on its head, what makes the Christian God an entity worthy of worship or veneration?

Hi Eudaemonium (a good name) :) Brill to have you here.

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Eudaemonium
However, as a former believer, I need to state a simple fact: it is <i>intoxicating</i> - dangerously so. It combines all the hubris and self-exhaltation of LaVeyan Satanism, with the 'Chosenness' of Judaism, with the militancy of Radical Islam.

That is a really good way of describing it, how the JOS appear somehow to be religious fundamentalists.

Do you feel as if your involvement in the JOS hurt you? What made you decide to leave?

Thanks again for joining us :)

Love
Kath

And thank you, Kath, for the welcome :)

I guess what ultimately persuaded me to leave was the insane level of corruption among the upper clergy (something one is not truly capable of realising unless one is IN the clergy, as most of it takes place in closed, private forums). Even with the Nazism, I could always try and provide a moderating voice in the groups (as myself and Dann effectively *ran* most of the public ones), while "towing the line" enough to not get branded as a "jew" (which generally happened a lot). I can honestly say, regardless of whether the Nazism was intended from the start, I do not believe that Andrea/Maxine ever intended for it to become as corrupt as it did. I think, at the start, she was probably driven by *some* form of altruism, and a deep disatisfaction/distaste with Christianity in its American incarnation. But power corrupts, as does money - the JOS majorly started going downhill once she started the whole 'donations' racket. Considering she effectively lived off donations, the amount of 'research' she did and the time she spent answering questions just seemed to drop almost every week. The fact she was increasingly guilty of everything she accused others of being started to wear away my patience. Then Dann informed me of a lot of the other goings on that I was unaware of, and I started to see more. Also, as an academic, I was becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the sources she used and their somewhat dubious histories: there's historical reinterpretation, and then there's historical invention. And when your citing books that hold the Ark of the Covenant is hovering in a parallel dimension at the centre of the labyrinth in Chartres Cathedral, you have to be wonder.

So it was a mixture of distaste for corruption, political differences and a generla disillusionment with where the group was going. This ultimately culminated in a crisis of faith, which led to me leaving and distancing myself from the Satanic community, really, ever since.

As to whether the JOS *hurt* me, it's hard to say. It certainly contributed to the breakdown of my romantic relationship at the time, but this was also due to a wide variety of other reasons, and I think that even if I hadn't been with the JOS at the time it still would of occurred, though possibly been less messy. For teht ime I was with them it certainly made me more intollerating, hateful and derogatory towards other religious groups and people who didn't know "the truth". This attitude was weeded out generally quickly after leaving though, so while it affected a period of my life it didn't really outlive my time with the JOS.

What it did do though, was change me profoundly. The period between 17 and 20 is pretty revolutionary anyway for most people, and as that was the period I was with the JOS it would be difficult to not carry some of it with me afterwards. Generally I can say I'm more assertive, and proud of being myself, I also have a near obsession with outdoing my previous efforts (supassing myself rather than others), and generally improving my life (e.g. fitness, healthy eating, meditation for concentration, researching etc), all of which I can trace to my time with the JOS. Those, I generally consider to be positive improvements.

I generally consider the JOS to have been not-so-much a mistake, as a part of a life-long learning process, for better *and* for worse. However, coming from an athiest household, and being generally fairly independent, financially and mentally, I am doubtless the answer would be *very* different for someone from a christian background, where such a religious conviction could effectively break down family relations and cause irreparable psychological damage to all parties concerned. This would especially hold true for the younger converts from the 'Teens for Satan' board.

I do not believe the JOS to be inherently a bad thing. While I disagree strongly with its leadership, political beliefs and various aspects of its theology and 'study skills', I think it has the potential to do some good - perhaps in different, more moderate, hands, and in a different cultural environment from the American Bible Belt its founders currently occupy.

Oh and thanks for the name compliment :)

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Eudaemonium
Turning your question on its head, what makes the Christian God an entity worthy of worship or veneration?

Good point. As you state, many 'pagan' cultures believed that everything had a soul, ie trees, rocks, a single thread in a tapestry, the knife that cut the bread, etc. A healthy dose of worship was spread around to those things that were part of one's life. I suppose it was about respect for the world around you - the world that sustained life. As we distanced ourselves from the mundane and worked towards 'civilisation' we could start to take life for granted. Basically, the Earth Mother was replaced by a singular god to reflect our new priorities. We were starting to see ourselves as greater than our instincts, our human nature.

But look at the price we are paying for turning our backs on her.