counselor47 -

Concerning this "useful idiot":

It has been reported that the u.i. was in Dallas a few weeks ago and met with Ole.

If this was actually the case - and I have no reason to doubt my extremely credible source - have you heard about what they discussed?

Just a lowly renegade,

Mark

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Concerning this "useful idiot":

Let be very clear about one thing, Mark. I am not calling this person a useful idiot--I would never say that about her. I was just saying that is how I surmise that Trinity sees her. I've been on the inside there, and I know just how cynical they really are.

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It has been reported that the u.i. was in Dallas a few weeks ago and met with Ole. If this was actually the case - and I have no reason to doubt my extremely credible source - have you heard about what they discussed?

I don't get much feedback about what goes on inside Trinity these days. I can pretty much deduce what she and Ole talked about by reading the little essay that she posted, though, since it basically reads like a set of talking points from Trinity. If, as she says, she wants to be even-handed, why didn't she try to talk to me and Wendy while she was in Dallas? I mean, if a person were going to try to be an honest broker between two camps that were at odds, shouldn't they try talking to both sides?

counselor47-

I don't think she's capable of , nor is she qualified to be a broker between you and Ole.
There's too much conflict of interest from the past between her and TFI.
Just my opinion on that.
Besides, who want's to reconcile with a cult leader in the first place? Scripture doesn't mandate it. Instead, we are commanded to avoid heretics - which all cult leaders are - and to warn others about them - which you are doing. And I say "Godspeed" to those efforts!
And may more counter-cult/apologetics experts rise to your defence!

Mark

Below is what I put on a listserv called AR-Talk that goes to many prominent apologists. It seems to me that another member of this forum, a Mark Scheiderer has become obsessed with this Trinity Foundation issue, and has even gone on this list with personal insults against me and my wife, Jackie Alnor. I have never posted anything here until now. He has been evasive with his answers to me and has given false information on at least two occasions on this list, especially his lying statements that my wife Jackie has "retracted" her Trintiy Foundation statement. After he first made that statement to this list, he e-mailed me and asked if we had changed our minds on the Trinity Foundation situation. I told him, no! In fact our positions were more hardened.

He even accused me in an e-mail of making money off the Trinity Foundation, which was never true in any sense of the word at all! My wife, was an independent consultant for the Trinity Foundation in 1994, which went on for an 8 month time period. She was taping TBN and other checkered televangelist and was sending transcripts of outrageous moments to them and duplicating tapes. It ended when TFI did not want it to continue and began doing the work internally. Jackie never lived there, but visited TFI on several occasions and subsequently had various phone conversations, numerous e-mails and even phone conversations with the Duncans. I provided to the Duncans through Jackie some of my thoughts on the matter, including the fact that they should read Dr. Ronald Enroth's fine books, Churches that Abuse and Recovering from Churches that Abuse.

Jackie stayed with Wendy Duncan during at least one of her visits and provided counsel to her, even suggesting that she follow her heart and leave the group. Is the TRI an "off-centered" group? Yes. Nevertheless, their gripes should have been brought directly to TFI leaders, and especially to Ole Anthony. This was never done. Griping to a small number of former TFI leaders at a chance meeting does not fit the muster of Matthew 18. And no one is hiding behind Matthew 18. It is interesting that after some people brought their concerns to Anthony over various matters, Anthony listened and some changes were made.

I am neutral on the TRI situation. I esteen the Duncans. Yet, I can see both sides. We don't need people like Mark Scheiderer making false statements and doing things that are not helpful. The scriptures demand a Matthew 18 approach for dealing with personal sins one on one. I have no objection with people going after TFI on the basis of their public teachings, and there are things there that are unbiblical.

At any rate, below is my post to AR-Talk. I was talking about Mark Scheiderer and this RickRoss list in my post. BTW, I know RickRoss and am thankful for many of the services he provides.

- William M. Alnor, Ph.D.

----------
Dear Colleagues,

In recent days a renegade "apologist" has put several
messages up on a listserv about the Trinity Foundation
of Dallas in which he asserted that my wife, Jackie,
"retracted" her statment on apostasyalert.org on the
matter. The URL for her statement was announced on
AR-Talk some time ago. As some may know, I have
avoided taking a public stand on the Trinity
Foundation both in my public statements and on the
cultlink.com web site. I respect both the Trinity
Foundation and Doug and Wendy Duncan, who have written
a book on the topic. We are hopeful of
reconciliation, and we believe that is possible if all
parties truly try. I am neutral on this matter, and I
think both sides have made good points.

But this "apologist" is not helpful. He wrote me
several weeks ago (and we have since had many
discussions) via e-mail on the matter. I will provide
copies of these e-mails to anyone who is interested.
(Write me privately.) They are quite revealing. He
first announced to the unnamed listserv without asking
us about it whether my wife had "retracted her
statement." He then wrote me several days later asking
if that was true. I told him in very direct and in
very strong language that it was *NOT* true, and she
was holding firm with it. (I agree with her
statement, though I had nothing to do with its
writing.) Here are some snippets from the AR-Talk
post that were put up:

"Jackie Alnor (my wife) independently ...
> released a statement on the Trinity Foundation and
> Wendy's Duncan's book "I Can't hear God Anymore"
that
> can be accessed at her Apostasy Alert site. This is
> her opinion and was not edited by me... :
>
> [www.apostasyalert.org]
>
> Respectfully,
>
> William M. Alnor, Ph.D."

Nevertheless the "apologist" today went on the
listserv and once again announced that my wife had
retracted the Trinity Foundation statement because it
was "filled with mistakes." He then followed it up
with a post for us to "give it up!" This statement
was not retracted and it was never taken down from her
Apostasy Alert site since Jackie put it up.

It is very true there there is not a link from the
Apostasy Alert home page to the statement, and that
was done deliberately because me and Jackie both want
to be in a position of being helpful if both sides do
come together on what is dividing them.

This is yet another indication of what some of us have
been talking about in recent years: in apologetics
circles there are many renegades operating without
accountability. I support EMNR's membership
application in which it asks for information about
present and past church membership and related data.

Paul stated to "note those who cause divisions and
offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned,
and avoid them." Romans 16:17

William M. Alnor, Ph.D.

Mr. Alnor,

Did you follow the Matthew 18 process with Mark Schneidder? Is your post the third step of taking it to the church?

Why is it incubent on the Duncans to [b:e2064fb952]continue[/b:e2064fb952] to try and approach Ole? Doesn't he have any responsibilty to approach people who have something against him? (see Matthew 5)? You seem very thin skinned about what has been said about you and your wife, though you seem to not have any sensitivity or problems printing nasty and hurtful things at your website with regard to Roman Catholics and their church.
cultaware

In his post on AR-talk, Mr. Alnor said he is neutral on the TFI/Duncan matter, yet he stands by his wife, Jackie's statement. Duplicity.

Mr. Alnor says that his wife has not retracted her statement, yet acknowledges that it is not available on her site. What on earth does that mean? The reason I though it was retracted was because I could not find it on her site anymore. If that's a wrong assumption than I admit my error.

Mr. Alnor asserts that he and his wife have not made any money in their connection with TFI, contradicting what several individuals within the apologetics community have told me.

Mr. Alnor believes the Duncan's have not followed the Matt. 18 process, yet appears to have violated that process with regards to his complaints against me.

Mr. Alnor has told me in various e-mails that he does not hold EMNR in high regard ( or words similar to that effect ) , yet he supports EMNR's membership application. Why bring EMNR into the picture when he doesn't respect it?

But to get to the heart of the issue: Why, if he is neutral on the TFI/Duncan issue, is he so concerned with it?

Yesterday afternoon I posted about this discussion on this board on the AR-talk list, and now Mr. Alnor is a registered user and is posting on this topic.
What is the deal?

Mr. Alnor recently, and possibly accidentally, forwarded on an e-mail on to me that was from the recently banned NathanA to Jackie Alnor. On Sunday, Feb. 11, approximately 20 minutes after I posted on this board about Jackie Alnor's retraction and errors in her statements, Jackie Alnor e-mailed me privately and questioned my statements in that post. Based on those two facts, I assert that the Alnors, for reasons known only to them, are obsessed with this issue.

Also, Jackie Alnor was in Dallas recently and met with Ole Anthony, but NOT the Duncans.

I've said it once, and I'll continue to say it: The reason some within the apologetics/counter-cult community are upset with the Duncan's assertions about TFI/Anthony is because they have egg on their face.

Ron Enroth and the other endorsers on the back of Wendy's book are legitimate experts and their word is to be respected.

I don't care if one individual calls me a renegade. I've never classified myself as an apologist or a counter-cult expert. I'm an ex-cultist, and, although I'm not proud of that fact, it makes my blood boil when other ex-cultists are lambasted and ridiculed when they come out with their story - which is verified by other members of the same cult.

All I hear from some is "The Duncans gotta go by Matt. 18", yet they ignore all the other damning info on Anthony and TFI in Wendy's book.

Mark Scheiderer

----------------------------------------------------------

David Clarks talk on TFI from the recent EMNR seminar is available at EMNR's site and Watchman Fellowship's site.

Mr. Alnor says I'm obsessed with this issue.

Perhaps if he had ever been part of a cult, as I have, he would understand just how furious I am when other ex-cultists, such as the Duncan's, are not given legitamacy because they didn't go by someone's assinine misapplication of Scripture.

If that makes me obsessive, so be it.

Mark Scheiderer

A word to the wise:

Those who send e-mails to the Alnors should copy them and copyright them.

Some things to consider:

Mr. Alnor doesn't seem to be following the Matt. 18 process with regards to me. What's next? A lawsuit against me in the "style" of Hank Hanegraaff? ( Hank H. just happens to be suing Mr. Alnor as we speak.) Perhaps this current lawsuit against him would explain Mr. Alnor's current behaviour and mood.

Mark Scheiderer, renegade

I am neutral in the controversy between the Alnors and Mark Scheiderer. My wife says she is neutral, too. We consider all of them to be our friends, though we agree with Seeking that the Alnors should make some appropriate attempt to go through the Matthew 18 process with Mr. Scheiderer.