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cultaware
This group has definite boundary issues. What I disliked about the heavily encouraged pulic confessions is the fact that they were frequently used against you later on in order to keep you in line. What is really frightening are all the notes Ole kept of everyones "high place" hot seats. I bet these notes are one reason many ex- members have trouble speaking out about their experiences there. In fact Ole recently [i:2de991c8a5]accidentally[/i:2de991c8a5] released some of them to Glenna, the reporter.I wish he would at least destroy the records on the people who have left and at the very least destroy mine. It is kind of intimidating to have them in Ole's possession. Really, why does he keep them at all?
cultaware

What's sad is that...I agree with you on some of this. Before I left, it seemed to me that there were those that would use the confessions to beat other down. Now here's the kicker. In MY own personal experience... Ole never used my lying or anything revealed in the hotseats against me. The people that did that are the ones that are now gone. Funny...they want an apology from Ole yet I haven't gotten one from any of them except for Doug. Hows that for hypocrisy.

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zeuszor
Hey, I do not have time to comment deeply right now because I am getting ready to leave but will comment later. But, I will say that I have heard Ole say, "You are the Antichrist" lots of times. I do not misunderstand. That's what he said. He is reconditioning your identity and teaching you to give him way too much access to your mind. When he says that you can't trust your own mind he is implying that you CAN trust [i:6af51ba4f9]his[/i:6af51ba4f9] mind. I don't misunderstand it at all.

Brian...Brian...I don't know how many times that Ole has said. "Your MIND is the antichrist." WE are God's children. The mind feeds your own ego and tells you to be shamed, draws you away from God's grace. His teaching is simple. We, as humans, have failed and our minds and egos are the antichrist. BUT, we as children of God have been saved by the blood of Christ and God's grace to come to know him.

He teaches that we are perfect in God. To not listen to the mind that tells us that there is shame in ourselves or that we have unfinished work. We are perfect. Christ died for us. He shed blood for us so that we can live within God.

Is this a terrible doctrine? I don't think it is. Unfortunately, Ole is more forceful in his words and like I said before, he isn't the most suave or gentle of teachers but I believe in this doctrine.

Cherenuff1,

Would you consider asking Ole for us to destroy those notes on our hot seats? I'm serious. I would sincerly appreciate that act by you. It would say to me that you are being serious and honest about your stated concerns for those who feel hurt by Ole. Please think about it? I am personally sad that you have been hurt by some of the post here. It is creepy and intimidating to me that these personal items are sitting on his shelves somewhere.
cultaware

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cultaware
Cherenuff1,

Would you consider asking Ole for us to destroy those notes on our hot seats? I'm serious. I would sincerly appreciate that act by you. It would say to me that you are being serious and honest about your stated concerns for those who feel hurt by Ole. Please think about it? I am personally sad that you have been hurt by some of the post here. It is creepy and intimidating to me that these personal items are sitting on his shelves somewhere.
cultaware

Yes I will. I believe I know who you are and truthfully, there should never have been notes on the hotseats. To me, those were healing confessional moments that would be akin to a parishiner confessing to a priest. The next time I see him, I will ask him for you. I would also urge you to email him or call him and ask him to as well. You may be surprised at his answer or not, but it would definitely be a healing process.

I'm glad there are no more hotseats. I believe that it was a phase in Trinity and was realized that it really served no purpose. To those of you that have left. I've been back here for about 8 years and there are no hotseats. The only tithing is by choice and I am VERY honest that I haven't seen anything in Wendy's book in the last 8 years of being here. I also understand how you guys felt. I was there at one point. I thought Trinity was a cult at one point when I was asked to leave and I was in your Trinity-bashing for awhile

Since I've been back, I've seen different things. I've been through different things and I just learned to turn to God instead of to my own judgement.

Thanks cherenuff1,
Please let me know his response.
cultaware

NathanA-

On Thursday 2/08/07 at 2:37 in the morning you posted that the link to the Jackie Alnor comment on the Duncans/TFI issue was from an external link. (This article was retracted by Jackie and is no longer available on her site.)
For whatever reason, possibly an error on his part, William Alnor forwarded to me a copy of the e-mail that you sent to Jackie Alnor in which you state that Pete Evans provided you with a copy of Jackie's (error filled ) commentary. You lied. It wasn't an external link.
You also stated in your following post that it was not your intent to spend so much time on this topic - or words to that effect - yet, when your profile is clicked on, and the "read all comments by NathanA" link is clicked on, it shows that this is the only topic you have posted at on these boards. You have also done so at all hours of the day and night.
An observation and a question for you:
1. You are obsessed with this topic and are nothing more than "static" in this discussion.
2. WHO ARE YOU REALLY?

Mark

Nathan-

2 other things:

1. Reread your very first post on this topic.

2. Reread Zeusor's posts on pages 3 through 5 of this topic. He was in the cult when he first started posting, read the comments on this board, and came out less than 2 months later. If he, who was INSIDE THE CULT at the time, could realize it was a cult, then WHY CAN'T YOU?

Mark

P.S.- Pete and anyone else from Trinity, and Bill and Jackie: Give it up.

Nathan, and others like you, my wife asked me to post this quote.

“When I set out to write the book, I had no intention of starting a war with Ole Anthony or his group, I only wanted to write about my experience in order to provide an alternative perspective on the Trinity Foundation other than the one which has been publicized in the media. Additionally, I wanted to write something that would help others recover from a cultic or spiritually abusive experience. I hoped that by sharing my story former members of Trinity Foundation and other similar groups would begin to heal from their experience."

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Mark Scheiderer
Nathan-

2 other things:

1. Reread your very first post on this topic.

2. Reread Zeusor's posts on pages 3 through 5 of this topic. He was in the cult when he first started posting, read the comments on this board, and came out less than 2 months later. If he, who was INSIDE THE CULT at the time, could realize it was a cult, then WHY CAN'T YOU?

Mark

P.S.- Pete and anyone else from Trinity, and Bill and Jackie: Give it up.

Mark

You write as if you have first hand experience with Trinity. I guess you are using an assumed name and understand that. Please tell me your experience with Trinity and how many months or years you have been involved.

I have been involved with Trinity off and on for about 15 years. I know Doug and Wendy, some of the disgruntled ex-members, some of the non-disgruntled ex-members and the current members.

Please tell us your story.

Thanks!

Being a member off and on for 15 years I'll try to answer these questions as they relate to me.

[u:8633782f3a][b:8633782f3a]Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:8633782f3a][/u:8633782f3a]

[b:8633782f3a]Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.[/b:8633782f3a] - There is a board of directors and I've seen others dismiss Ole's ideas on certain subjects. Lately, he just gives his two cents worth in and most of the time the elders will vote on doing something else. He has been accountable for his actions and I've seen him ask forgiveness from group members.

[b:8633782f3a]No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. [/b:8633782f3a]
LOL...I don't know how many times Ole has said. "Stop just sitting there acting like sheep. SOMEONE ask a question." Ole loves to debate and gets tired of people NOT asking questions. He doesn't want someone there if they just want to follow blindly. He teaches us to search for the answer if we don't believe what he preaches. The only thing is...if you get into a debate with him he's not going pussy-foot around you. He does get tired of having someone ask the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I know I get tired of listening to someone ask the same thing over and over again.

[b:8633782f3a]No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. [/b:8633782f3a]
Yeah...so Ole has some money. Others around here make more money than him. My family makes and has more money than him. The Trinity budget is completely open to anyone and Trinity willingly opens their financial statements to anyone that asks.


[b:8633782f3a]Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. [/b:8633782f3a]
I have a fear of heights...and elevators. I HATE elevators.


[b:8633782f3a]There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. [/b:8633782f3a]
People care if you leave. Because they are saddened that they might not see you again. If and when we decide to move, my interractions with Trinity members will be less becasue I've moved away but I KNOW without a doubt that I'll still have my poker nights with my friends, go to the movies or the yearly Christmas party. In my perspective, I don't think that anyone who left is evil. I'm glad they left and found another spiritual home that is a better fit for them. If others think that they are evil then they need to stop. BUT if someone kept complaining about Trinity this and Trinity that all the time then I'd personnaly not like them very much. Also...I've never shunned anyone BUT I HAVE been shunned by ex-members because I still go here...and that hurts frankly. Update: We will soon be building a house in another city and are actively looking at Presbyterian Churches in the area. No one has criticized us and I have even gotten building advice from one of the leaders.


[b:8633782f3a]Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. [/b:8633782f3a]
I've heard some ex-members that agree with Doug and Ole and I've heard of some ex-members that don't agree with Doug and Wendy. It just depends on the person. Update: I was talking to two ex-members (they moved to other cities. They hadn't heard about this and thought it was just silly.


[b:8633782f3a]There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. [/b:8633782f3a]
The only record is Wendy's new book and the Observer article while there are numberous articles for Trinity. The Observer article was poorly written in my personal opinion because the reporter left out a lot of interviews that were actually pro Trinity and put in interview that were anti-Trinity. I know, I've heard from a lot of people that said they were interviewed yet nothing was put in there. Why? Oh yes, the reporter wanted an anti-Trinity view due to the book and thought that it would not be prudent or in the books best interest to put in all of the interviews.

[b:8633782f3a]Followers feel they can never be "good enough". [/b:8633782f3a]
I've actually been told that I'm a good mother, good wife, etc. Personally I don't care if I'm good enough of not. I'm fine the way I am and I intend to keep growing in my career choices and spiritually. I may not be 'good enough' in my Mothers eye but she can go jump in a lake...LOL


[b:8633782f3a]The group/leader is always right. [/b:8633782f3a]
**Snort**, if Ole or Gary or John were always right then I'm richer than Donald Trump. I've personally told some of them they were wrong about things. As for Gary and John...well....according to their wives...they are ALWAYS wrong.

[b:8633782f3a]The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. [/b:8633782f3a]No..nada...nope. Ole is constantly harping to "find out for yourselves", "don't just take my word for it..SEARCH..get off your lazy butts and find out the truth!" or "READ the BIBLE!" or. "If I'm wrong...argue with me...debate with me...just don't follow blindly!".

[u:8633782f3a][b:8633782f3a]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:8633782f3a][/u:8633782f3a]

[b:8633782f3a]Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. [/b:8633782f3a]
Ole...Ole who? LOL. Don't know how to answer this one. The ones that bring up Ole and are obsessed with him are the ones that are keeping this particular message board indundated with posts. I've heard nothing but Ole this Ole that...blah blah. I use to be a disgruntled member and when I went to anti-Trinity meetings with others, the only topic that was ever discussed was Ole. Kinda sickened me so I just left all together.


[b:8633782f3a]Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. [/b:8633782f3a]
Oh please....to me, Ole is just an old man that started a group a long time ago. I agree with his teachings but he is NOT God or Jesus. He's just a man. He isn't even around that much due to his poor health.

[b:8633782f3a]Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution". [/b:8633782f3a]
I guess we as a group persecute Ole constantly then because I along with many others, criticize Ole at times.

[b:8633782f3a]Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior. [/b:8633782f3a]
Tell you what...Ole can be quite cut and dry and in my experience, no one here acts like him.


[b:8633782f3a]Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement. [/b:8633782f3a]T
his is funny...when my husband and I were having marriage problems, we went to our pastor and his wife, still didn't work, so we tried Ole. After that, we were advised by Ole, Gary and others. "GO to a marriage counselor. You two really need help and we apparently can't help you with this." Is this a cult personality? Would a cult leader tell us to actually go and seek counseling and when my husband couldn't afford it for himself, one of the leaders actually paid for a therapist out of his own pocket.


[b:8633782f3a]Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests. [/b:8633782f3a]
Don't really understand the question but if I get this right then Trinity has a yearly Thankgiving feast but we aren't going because we will be with our family. Some people missed the Tabernacles feast because they had personal plans. I don't go to Sunday Seders as much because it is the only day that my hubby gets off and we prefer to spend it as 'family time'. Update: I haven't gone to Bible studies in the last couple of months and just today showed up for one. People were pleased and told me they missed me but that was it.


[b:8633782f3a]A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.[/b:8633782f3a]
Hey...did I ever tell you about the girl with the pogo stick....? I think that Trinity prides itself on their sense of humor. We say. "if you can't laugh at yourself then you take yourself too seriously." The Passover skits that we do yearly is nothing but making fun of people (in a fun and good-natured way).


[b:8633782f3a]Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. [/b:8633782f3a]
We spend lots of time with my husbands family and they're Baptists. They don't agree with some of our doctrine and we don't agree with theirs but we love each other immensely and I'm hoping to move closer to them soon. I have friends that have never visited Trinity and yet I still hang out with them often for Sushi! Update: I am a moderator for a large Dallas moms group and often spend my time helping new moms in the Dallas area get acquainted with each other by setting up play dates for their children. I'm also an active member of my daughters school PTA. I have more friends outside of Trinity that I hang out with than inside of Trinity.


[b:8633782f3a]Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful. [/b:8633782f3a]
No...Ole can be pretty judgemental and harsh. He can be an ass and he's been told that too. He even admits that he's an ass. Maybe he's mellowed with old age since Doug and Wendy left...who knows. I'm not here for him though...I'm here because I agree with the basic doctrine.

[b:8633782f3a]Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. [/b:8633782f3a]
LOL...I think its the other way around with me. Since I'm a member, the angry ex-members think I'M the bad influence. Maybe not with Doug and Wendy since we've recently emailed but I haven't heard from any others. Kinda miss them too. Update: I actually saw one of the angry ex-members and she refused to even look at me when I saw her. That pretty much hurt since I've never shunned her..EVER.

That's all I can answer for now. Please remember, this is according to my own personal view on the matter.