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Sahara71
A friend of mine once tried to 'live in the now' for a period of several weeks and everyone quickly became frustrated with her because nothing was done and everyone else had to pick up the slack and it was as annoying as hell.

That's interesting. The mindlessness E.T. advocates is like the condition of an infant. It makes sense that all the adults around such a person would have to compensate for someone who insists on living in a state of dependency.

Activity can happen in the now, in the present moment. I can slice tomatoes, banana, I can eat, ride a bike, dance, or clean house, I wanted to say also, to have sex, but sex is not approved by enlightened beings. You may eat, dance, clean, go to work, but sex is not required(a little irony) and be very present. In fact realization would be, this is not "me" who is active, activity is happening, but this is not personal.

Most problem is, about I did this, or I failed do this - when you are very present you can see, this is the space that is seeing, and "I" cannot say proudly anymore - I did this, I gained this,or be depressed and say, I failed at this - both is ego.

What is left, is enjoyment of being alive, and most of people problems is seen as just made up.

How is it possible, that when thought is believed is causing people pain, or so much trouble ?

>How is it possible, that when thought is believed is causing people pain, or so much trouble ?

When thought is believed, that means the conceptual content of the thought is experienced as reality itself, to a large extent. It's like looking at a map and believing the map to be the territory, forgetting almost completely that there's a greater reality outside of the map. It makes sense to me that believing thought to be reality is a painfully claustrophobic thing.

It probably has (had) evolutionary advantage for humans to be delusional in this way. For example, when we're strongly identified with our self-concepts, we're more susceptible to emotions like shame and guilt. This is important because we live in very large and complex societies that can only function if we mostly inhibit our primitive drives such as aggression. People have to be controlled for society to function and their belief in thought makes them controllable.

I hope Tolle is right that our present way of relating to thought is a transient phase in our evolution, and that we evolve into a post-thought state. That doesn't mean we no longer think but that we're no longer deluded by thought, we no longer mistake the map for the territory. In neuroscience terms, maybe you could put it this way: our brain functioning will evolve to become less dominated by the default mode network.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2020 06:12AM by zizlz.

...just wanted to add: of course a post-thought humanity could only function if (a large part of) humanity has transcended egotism, as I think would be the case if they collectively achieve awakening stage 2 (embodiment), a state in which people are naturally compassionate (see one of my earlier posts in this thread). After all, a society of uncontrollable people could only function if they don't *need* to be controlled.

I think if we enhance and apply our scientific understanding of spiritual awakening, this is at least in theory achievable. I think pilot projects to achieve this on a small scale at first will be done with astronauts that go on far travels. For example, a trip to Mars takes 9 months. How can a small group of people living in close quarters keep functioning on the high level required to successfully carry out such a complex mission? It would be very hard unless they possess the humility, compassion, and equanimity that comes with stage 2 awakening.

Sorry for going a bit off topic.

That's fine, it's interesting topic.

It might be true what you said about shame and guilt. In my family (in those times, I can observe it) little children are being taught shame if they cannot do poo on their own, or eat by themselves, or do something properly in the opinion of "adults" - it is like, their ability to function is build on shame and of course fear - do not go there, there is "which, ghost, devil",or go here - ghost, devil is there. Children can be easy controlled by shame, and fear, not healthy minded, but easy to control by egoistic adults, who doesn't care about feeling of the little children.

It was not easy for me to let go, to let people be this way, and to not protect children - because I love them. Now I learn, that I'm being for children the way, I see as good. I remember the times I wanted to call police, every time I saw adult getting unconscious with children- beating them, calling them by names, screaming at them, but I would have to call police in cease of many, many parents.


Coming back to Eckhart Tolle. I trust him, because - he is very good, and kind man, because in the now, I'm experiencing inner bliss. Because in the now, I can appreciate by all my heart, beauty of the nature, I'm so in love in the nature, I wasted too much of my life about thinking,instead of loving the nature - the truest miracle.
And also I know Eckhart Tolle's books are not so expensive - he is not greedy. When I compared the price of his books, to some celebrity in my country - Eckhart's books cost 70% less. Also he said, he is going to spent money, he gained from book's sell to create library with spiritual books, he never considered this books to be his own creation, only lifes creation.
Also he is teaching even if his throat is hurting. Spiritual organisation made plans of his teachings for few years ahead.
If E.Tolle is so selfish, and egoistic, why is he not spending all of his money for travelings, sexy young women, alcohol, drugs, casinos, expensive suits.
When I see him, in his vest sweaters and so modest...I love him a lot.

I'm glad that Eckhart Tolle has a positive effect on you. Some people, like Andy (who wrote the opening post), seem to get ego-phobia or mind-phobia from listening to Tolle, which IMO is linked to shortcomings in his teachings. But of course there are more aspects to his teachings, some of which may be helpful for some people. I guess just like a vest, a teacher can fit one person and not another, and you can grow into or out of their size and style. There's no "one size fits all" spiritual teacher.

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Gaja
Coming back to Eckhart Tolle. I trust him, because - he is very good, and kind man, because in the now, I'm experiencing inner bliss. Because in the now, I can appreciate by all my heart, beauty of the nature, I'm so in love in the nature, I wasted too much of my life about thinking,instead of loving the nature - the truest miracle.

I know what you mean! When your state of mind isn't dominated by conceptual thought, bliss is often inevitable. Bliss seems to be an inherent property of life, we just don't see it when our attention is occupied by concept.

But I experience another side too, that I don't hear much about in spiritual circles: a field of suffering/despair. When I'm tuned into that, it feels like I'm in touch with the suffering of all lifeforms. I guess it's the other side of the coin. It used to be that when I felt this all around me and inside me, I took it personally, I thought up reasons that justified why I personally felt this sad. But now, I just accept that this feeling isn't the result of whatever personal reason I can come up with, it's just part of life, and I lovingly accept it. Then it's okay. Then it helps me be more compassionate. I think you can't be fully compassionate with other beings unless you feel and share their pain.

zizlz Wrote:

>
> I hope Tolle is right that our present way of
> relating to thought is a transient phase in our
> evolution, and that we evolve into a post-thought
> state. That doesn't mean we no longer think but
> that we're no longer deluded by thought

_________________________________

I I agree with you. Maybe E Tolle is not thinking, is peace itself, and have power over his mind, to not think at all, that's why he teaches this way. For him using the mind is like, getting the book from the table. If he doesn't need the book, he doesn't pick it from the table. If he needs, he is opening the book.

The others teaches, thoughts may happen, but you know yourself as space in which thoughts happen.


You know what, I do not even like thoughts. I love reality, being in the moment. I will go for a walk in the forest. I feel like - thinking is not so much fun. Have a nice day, much of noticing the moment and miracle of life, and love yourself people.

Quote
Gaja
You know what, I do not even like thoughts. I love reality, being in the moment. I will go for a walk in the forest. I feel like - thinking is not so much fun. Have a nice day, much of noticing the moment and miracle of life, and love yourself people.

You have a nice day too! I probably don't need to tell you this but just as a public service announcement: be careful with negative thoughts about thinking. If you believe a thought like "I don't like thinking," that creates a tension in your mind, generating a resistance to your thoughts, which is of course psychologically damaging and leads to suffering.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2020 05:57PM by zizlz.

came back to you zizlz, because I was contemplating now, compassion.

In the past I believed love is pity. When I saw someone sad, closed down, not liked by most, isolated, I was thinking how to come closer, and how to save such a one.

For most of my life I had huge pain body. I was feeling everyone around me, and I was very unhappy within, and pretending all is well outside, really I could be comedian.
Now I do not suffer so much. Because I realized that most of human suffering is thought-made. So I think, every pain outside that is felt within me, means it is within me, and I can help, only by being present, compassionate with this feeling and by not giving to it my sense of self.

I wouldn't be helpful if I would go around, and complain,and feel bad, oh this happen to this one, oh that happened to that one. Life is so cruel and so on so on.

Also helps to not give any sense of self, to someone who talk crazy things, or behave insane. I can see it as mind made reaction, action. Something like this.But I have to say, that since I respect myself, I avoid company of people who make me feel not well. If I can remove myself from situation that doesn't feel well, then why not.

> But I have to say, that since I respect myself, I avoid company of people who make me feel not well. If I can remove myself from situation that doesn't feel well, then why not.

That seems wise!

The thought-made pain you refer to is only a part of a more generalized "field of pain" that seems to apply to every living creature, even plant life. I think it comes with being embodied. When consciousness perceives through a body/mind, it perceives the body's and the mind's limitations.

The spiritual path is often entered in an attempt to transcend this pain, and this transcendent movement can culminate in the awakening experience where you find out that what you really are never shared the body/mind's limits.

But as I've been pointing to, many people get stuck there (including many well known spiritual teachers). They think: I'm not the body/mind so I refuse to experience the body/mind's limitations and pain. Tolle would say: Im am formlessness, not form. But that's the halfway point of the spiritual path. The first half leads away from form; the second half leads back into form. It leads to the realization that form is no different and no less real than formlessness. You (as in pure consciousness/presence or whatever you want to call it) are not the body and its joy/suffering, yet you're all bodies and all joy and suffering. As long as you try to escape it in any way by denying its reality and/or disidentifying from it, you've created a duality, a limitation on reality, and you're stuck. Not that there's anything wrong with abiding in that state, but those who believe it to be the final truth live in delusion.