Yes, yes, I see what everyone's saying about honest MBAs ;-) and fancy schools. I didn't make my points very well.

Obviously, I'd prefer it if Stever wanted to make an honest living, and many people with his background do. (Really. They're just not the ones doing the perp walk on CNN.) So that was one of my points, even though it's none of my business.

Another point was appearances. If Stever wished to rip people off, why not work at one of the many investment banks where, until the dishonesty level obliterated the entire industry, he could have looked respectable while still hustling people?

Apparently, Stever has transcended concern for appearances. Guess that's not always a good thing.

My big point is ease of lifestyle. Most of the people he works with could never get near the kinds of jobs he has access to. There's no need for someone with his academic background to so openly scrape the bottom of the barrel. Be a criminal if you must, but don't be a carjacker when you're a Corleone.

Most people who knock over liquor stores don't have a choice. I expect the guy who does have a choice between street crime and selling forged paintings at Sotheby's to choose the ease and relative safety of Sotheby's.

Cops aren't going to shoot at you, you're not outside in the hot sun or the freezing rain, you wear nicer clothes, and when you go to customers' houses to advise them on displaying their new paintings, you can steal much nicer stuff. Me, looking at a life of crime, I'd go with Sotheby's.

'Obviously, I'd prefer it if Stever wanted to make an honest living, and many people with his background do. (Really. They're just not the ones doing the perp walk on CNN.) So that was one of my points, even though it's none of my business.'

Individuals are incredibly complex in their personal motivations. I spent years trying to fathom and make sense of the motivations of people close to me--its another bottomless rabbit hole as it entails endless speculation and never produces a concrete conclusion.
Few people themselves are consciously aware of even a fraction of the complexities that drive them.
I came to the sad conclusion that the people around me were actively opposed to looking at these issues as they were content with the results they were getting, regardless of the 'collateral damage' being inflicted. (Damage to others is very easily rationalised using such weasel words when someone is exclusively focussed on getting what they want.)

Perhaps Stever Robbins enjoys the thrill of his dodgy activities.
I, personally, think that this is my business when those dodgy activities are having such a profound effect on me and on the wider society. But I have come to the conclusion that the main part of my business is being more aware of my own motivations rather than those of the numerous dodgy characters operating their scams.

I need to be aware enough of the motivations of SRs and BKs of this world (power, fame, money) to recognise when I am being drawn into their games and to have the wherewithal to move swiftly in the opposite direction at a very early stage.
Trying to understand why such people do what they do in any great detail does not change the fact that most will not change. That kind of change requires an immense personal commitment to have any chance of being effective and is always internally, not externally generated.

Starving them of the fuel (me and you getting scammed) to feed their power, fame and money drives makes more sense to me ---as well as being far more easily accomplished---than attempting to change their morality or ethical stance. (which is why these boards are so vital)

That involves me being aware (in my own case) of my own personal propensities to engage in the thrill of risky behaviour, (people with my background have an early training in high adrenaline tolerance) and for me, ensuring that
my own thrill-seeking does not impinge on others in a damaging way.

My point above, about not getting too involved with the possible motivations of the abusers, is cross-referencing from the Pick-Up Artists thread.
I posted a link to Dorpat's 'Gaslighting' book there and am posting another to a more modern take on the subject. I haven't read this book yet but found one Amazon comment to be worth reposting here:

gaslighting no 2


'By somebody's mom - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Gaslight Effect: How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life (Hardcover)
Sometimes when I read these books that do such a marvelous job of describing the interactions with abusive people and then try to give readers a 'clue' about how to continue contact with them, I get concerned.

I think the biggest destructive message you get when you are gaslighted is that somehow the victim can change the behavior of the abuser by changing the victim's behavior.

In other words - the victim, by her behavior is causing herself to be gaslighted.

This is dangerous thinking. It is the typical blame the victim thinking that is espoused by mental health professionals again and again and again.

Why? Because the mental health professionals are making money off the victims - not the abusers. How many abusers do you think bought this book? But how many victims. Follow the money.

I commend this author for attempting to address this psychological abuse in her book, because there is little written about it anywhere. Yet, it can drive victims to suicide.

But the author fails by not addressing the severity of this abuse - in fact she fails to even call it abuse, nor does she talk about the effect on the victim. The book is too cutsey for me. There is nothing cute about being gaslighted. It is deadly serious.

Someday I hope that mental health professionals understand that they are making money off suffering and it is irresponsible to publish a cutsey book about psychological abuse that can drive someone to kill themselves.

The only place I saw the word 'abuse' was on the cover of the book, from a reviewer. This is serious business folks. I would rather have my ribs broken than my mind.

Unfortunately the author skips around issues that she should have hit head on.

With physical abuse, someone kills you. With psychological abuse you kill yourself. How much cleaner is that? Your abuser then gets away with psychological abuse and is vindicated - YOU ARE CRAZY - crazy enough to slit your wrists!

Be very careful folks. This book is just the tip of the iceberg. You cannot change someone who is setting out to use psychological abuse (gaslighting) to control you. You need to get away or you could die.

You do not play a part in any way whatsoever. By trying to explain yourself, you are being a NORMAL human being in an abnormal situation. You are not engaging in a tango. You are being NORMAL, believing that you are interacting with a human being - not a predator.

But you are dealing with a predator, who preys on his own kind. The normal rules of engagement do not apply here. You cannot change a predator by ignoring what he is trying to do - drive you insane.

That is not cutsey. There is no tango involved. It doesn't take two. It takes one predator who preys on your goodness and willingness to change behaviors that you think are hurting him because you care. There is nothing wrong with caring. Empathy. Keep those qualities for someone who isn't preying on you. Changing the way you react to the predator will not change a thing. It is exactly what he wants you to do.

Your anger and protests are your demonstrations of your self-worth. Keep them. Don't silence yourself as this author suggests. But do get away.

PERIOD.'


"There is nothing wrong with caring. Empathy. Keep those qualities for someone who isn't preying on you. Changing the way you react to the predator will not change a thing. It is exactly what he wants you to do."

That must rank as the sanest advice on the subject of coercive manipulation I have ever read.

Well, I am trying to do my bit.

I own a copy of Dr Dorpat's book on gaslighting.

A buddy of mine is a therapist. X said she was taking a 3 month long continuing education course on countertransferance issues. (Exactly the stuff BK should be studying and avoids doing, because she's not licensed and does not have to).

I made sure to loan my pal Dorpat's book. That way she gets to read it and gets to talk about it to the other therapists taking that seminar.

The thing with these advanced NLP-style persuaders and conversational hypnotherapists...like the Stever Robbins type of guys, (there are many many of them out there...)

First off, anyone who has been immersed in it for decades, has a profoundly different way of looking at the world, and at people.
Very serious intellectual arrogance is part of that system, as they generally are very intelligent people, in terms of raw intellect. Lets face it, they are "smarter" than most people, and they know it.

They start to really believe that people's "conscious mind" simply gets in the way, so they do everything they can to by-pass it, and deal directly with the "unconscious" mind of their clients and customers.
This is where all of these covert techniques come in.

They start to get very arrogant, and think of people like objects, or like computers. They think and SAY, why deal with the application level, when they can alter the OS coding?
Or like when you hire a piano tuner, you expect them to go into your piano, and fix it, and not tell you how they did it, right?

So that is how they think. If you go to the advanced training seminars, that is exactly how they think, and what they teach. They think of themselves as "surgeons" who go into the mind, and "change it", without the conscious awareness of the subject.
They are proud of that.
They tell themselves if they TELL people what they are doing, the "conscious mind" will just get in the way.
So that is very similar to Byron Katie, that is probably why Stever Robbins like her so much, and promotes her business.

There are registered, licensed hypnotherapists, who also do that to a degree. The difference is that you know what they are doing, and you have some trust with them, and that is discussed in advance.

But these type of covert hypnotherapists, they take it much further and try to play a GAME and pretend they are not doing anything.
And most of them are also utterly ruthless capitalists and entrepreneurs, unlike a hypnotherapist like Dr. Milton Erickson.

Stever Robbins has said he believes its perfectly fine to upsell high-margin products at seminars. Of course, if you are a greedy entrepreneur, you want to sell people worthless junk for top-dollar if you can get away with it.
So they have the "ethics" of Wall Street salespeople, and apply it to a type of "group therapy".
Voila. The LGAT seminar.

And there really isn't a "bad guy" in a sense, as basically all of them really do sees themselves as superior people and "good guys" . To them, anyone who questions their methods is the bad guy.

Its just that over the years, they get more and more desensitized, and power corrupts.
The more power to Influence people they get, the more they WANT.
And the older NLP-hypno method of telling people what you are doing to them, AS you do it, is now old fashioned. It doesn't work as well, as pretending you are doing nothing.
They just call that Conscious Misdirection.
A normal person calls it lying and deceit.

And if confronted, they would say..."what is a lie? what isn't a lie, everything is a lie"? And just start twisting from there.

The bottom line is that the advanced persuaders know they HAVE to conceal their techniques, as if the conscious mind of the people is aware of it, then it does not work as well.
Then their sales techniques don't work very well.

But in the end, the people who stay in that business, and watch "soccer moms" get their heads turned inside out, and mortgage their houses and hand over the cash for some stupid rip-off seminar they have attended 3 times already, have something wrong with their "conscience"...in every case.

People who have a normal conscience, cannot stay in that business, when you see people getting scammed. Most of them just get out.
Some of them speak out, as we have heard from some of them.

Then who stays in the seminar business? Those who enjoy doing that to people.
In the end, they really don't care, and literally believe its wrong NOT to take their money.

And they rationalize it with either not caring, or don't think about it, or think its FUNNY and laugh like Ross Jeffries in that video, or believe some Libertarian stuff, or Ayn Rand Virtue of Selfishness, etc.

In the end, they see themselves as superior people, especially when they try to say in their advertising and blogging they are humble! They know humility is more appealing.

For those who have known many of these advanced NLP style persuaders and hypnotists, the only solution is quite drastic.
Every word they say has to be double-checked.
Never do any "phone-coaching" as that has to be recorded and reviewed carefully.
Every "Story" is assumed false, until proven, as they have no problem making up Stories, and presenting them as "true". (what a normal person calls lying).
They always try to charge more than 10x what they are worth, don't pay it, its a rip-off.
Never take ANY story, or even anything they say at "face value", as they are generally trying to do something else.
And when they TELL you they are doing some complex technique on you, they are usually lying to distract you.

Yes, they are probably some of the most slippery people on the face of the earth, not your average bullshit artist or salesman.

Their abuse of the powerful techniques has completely backfired on them, to the point where their word and name is Mudd.
Most important, don't give them any money, don't believe their exaggerated salespitches and hype, don't buy their coaching crap, or other products.

But sadly, they know to avoid educated customers, which is why they are targeting the New Age market, where there is millions to be made, and no real questions asked.


And like Byron Katie, they have figured out a mental-Judo system of Questions, to cancel-out any real questions people might have, and turn it around on them.

Or perhaps the Stever Robbins Manipulation 101 [www.steverrobbins.com] is more your style? There are many ways to skin a cat.
Also, don't forget to "play dumb" when asked about your techniques. Just say you are a Success Coach and play the banjo on weekends, and are an amateur Ericksonian hypnotist and amateur brain surgeon.

Even better, just pretend you are an Enlightened idiot savant, and have no idea of what you are saying or doing or what you ate for breakfast.... its the new thing.

------------------------------------------------
[forum.culteducation.com]
MANIPULATION 101 by Stever Robbins.

Notice below:
- PRE-FRAME the debate so objections are IMPOSSIBLE
- non-verbal signals to trigger emotions
- lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.

This is not even the tip of the iceberg with this guy, and he is using those methods currently trying to confuse his connection with Byron Katie and others.
Byron Katie uses all of the methods listed below, and many more.

_________QUOTE excerpt for analysis_____________________

[www.steverrobbins.com]
Manipulation 101: Advancing your agenda when logic fails

Have you ever won an argument with logic? [...]
That's because human beings aren't rational -- they're emotional. And learning the rules of emotion is the only sure-fire way to align, motivate, and bring people to agreement when pursuing a larger vision. This presentation will give you tools from linguistics and cognitive & social psychology you can use to advance your agenda within your company, industry, and life.

Come learn:

How to create commitment and buy-in to your agenda that gets stronger over time.
How to use non-verbal signals to trigger emotional responses in your listeners.
How to present your case in ways that lock people into your point of view, even if they disagree.
How to "pre-frame" the debate so that objections are impossible.
_______________________________________________



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2009 03:45AM by The Anticult.

Thank you Stoic, for your post on gaslighting. I am definitely going to look into that book.

And the manipulation goes on and on. Just found some more examples of the effect they are causing, and how people adopt someone's bullshit and have it dominate their lives.

This is a very recent post on one of BK’s forums (jumping back to the wedding rings).

Quote

…I did not give my wedding ring away....- this was the most valuable thing that I had with me at the School.
I did not give it away because I was afraid that my husband would be disappointed and think what weird and crazy things I am doing at my "strange kind of spiritual workshop", that he would regard me as completely crazy and that he would try to persuade me to stop doing the work.

And that means that I was a coward, that I did not do my exercise with full heart, I was weak and that I can´t let go of things of the world. That I am stuck in the material world and that I am not spiritual, that my heart is cold.

Here is BK's last one on Twitter:

Quote

If you knew how important you are—and without the story you come to know it—you would fragment into a billion pieces and just be light.

And most people do not realize how little sentences like this will mess up their heads. There are many people who are very sincere, and really want to become good human beings, and they think that she is the role model they need to follow and ultimately become. They stand to be completely robbed of their authenticity and are not aware of it.

From The Gaslight Effect:

Quote

The Gaslight effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sense of self and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval. Gaslighters and gaslightees can be of either gender, and gaslighting can happen in any type of relationship.

Gaslighting works only when you believe what the gaslighter says and need him to think well of you.

The problem is, gaslighting is insidious. It plays on our worst fears, our most anxious thoughts, our deepest wishes to be understood, appreciated and loved. When someone we trust, respect or love speaks with great certainty – especially if there is a grain of truth in his words, or if he’s hit on one of our pet anxieties – it can be very difficult not to believe him. And when we idealize the gaslighter – when we want to see him as the love of our life, an admirable boss or a wonderful parent – then we have even more difficulty sticking to our own sense of reality. Our gaslighter needs to be right, we need to win his approval, and so the gaslighting goes on.

Of course, neither of you may be aware of what's really happening. The gaslighter may genuinely believe every word he tells you or sincerely feel that he's only saving you from yourself. Remember: He's being driven by his own needs. Your gaslighter might seem like a strong, powerful man, or he may appear to be an insecure, tantrum-throwing little boy; either way, he feels weak and powerless. To feel powerful and safe, he has to prove that he is right, and he has to get you to agree with him.

Meanwhile, you have idealized your gaslighter and are desperate for his approval, although you may not consciously realize this. But if there's even a little piece of you that thinks you're not good enough by yourself - if even a small part of you feels you need your gaslighter's love or approval to be whole - then you are susceptible to gaslighting. And a gaslighter will take advantage of that vulnerability to make you doubt yourself, over and over again.

And here are a couple of questions from the same book, that I have modified for the benefit of anyone who is close to Byron Katie, or any other spiritual teacher that has a great effect on their lives (but since this thread is about BK, let's stick to her):

Quote

If you consider answering "yes" to even one of the following questions, you've probably been gaslighted:

Does your opinion of yourself change according to approval or disapproval from Byron Katie?

When Katie praises you, do you feel as if you could conquer the world?

Do you dread having small things go wrong when you are around her - making a mistake, saying the wrong thing, not understanding things properly, not living up to her expectations?

Let's see if there are any silent readers out there, courageous enough to answer these questions honestly.

Quote

"Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode another’s reality. This is done by telling them that what they are experiencing isn’t so – and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.”

Stern goes on to say that gaslighting generally takes two to tango: one person who needs to be in control to maintain his sense of self; the other, who needs the relationship to maintain his/her sense of self and because of this, he/she acquiesces—constantly.

The victim ends up giving far, far more than he/she gets. This process invariably erodes the soul.

You know you’re in a full blown Gaslight Effect when you find yourself second guessing your own reality; when you’re unsure of what you really think and feel. Why? Because you’ve allowed someone else to define your reality for you. Invariably, this leads to being told what to think and how to think. And then in turn, you’re told who you are. You’re molded into an entity that someone else deems worthy of his or her love, affection; attention.

And because of the constant whittling away at your psyche, you believe you’re a better person as he or she sees you; as he/she needs you to be.

And here is something that I took from [lauriekendrick.wordpress.com] by Laurie Kendrick

Quote

Having been “gaslit” in the past, I’d like to share my thoughts with you.

Gaslighting I think, is all that I just mention, with refined manipulation added. And this is maniplation that’s defined by greed and selfishness. It creates cognitive dissonance and it’s this “in between state of cognizance” that women–people, find themselves most vulnerable.

It’s being forced to color inside the lines that others have drawn for us. If we don’t, we’ll be alone and that to some people, is a fate worse than death. Knowing that isolation and lonliness are the dreaded alternatives, we allow gaslighting. It’s not compromise. Hardly–it’s utter relinquishing of the self.

The authentic self.

Quote

Integrity (something sorely lacking in the world today) applies to behavior that consistently matches principles. You can’t be a person of integrity if selfishness and self centered behavior are what fuels every motivation. Gaslighters almost always lack integrity; as distorted as this sounds, they thrive on their own selfishness. They are always self-centered. They are consummate liars. Invariably, they will never fail to fail you.

One must then ask, how can a gaslighter expect to be loved if he or she doesn’t know how to love? How can he or she venture into a real, equitable partnership without knowing how to play fair?

The answer? Manipulation passed off as love or affection…or concern

No one will love ever love you like I love you
You’re nothing without me
I ONLY want to take care of you
I only want what’s best for you and only I know what that is
You have changed and grown so much since knowing me. I make you think and you are better because of it
Furthermore, what these people demand of themselves will rarely work with others. Once again, we touch on “coloring inside the lines” we draw for others. And when someone refuses, that’s how gaslighting starts. I think foisting this on someone else, is the quintessence of neurotic narcissism.

What this book reveals isn’t earth shattering. If you’ve lived it, then you know exactly what gaslighting is all about. For me, it merely gave a name to what I’d experienced.

Quote

I’ll take it one step further:

Some of us, by virtue of childhood experience, seek emotional replicas of our fathers and mothers. If we had a controlling parent, very often we’ll seek controlling partners. We’re most fortunate if we can break that cycle. And just because we find ourselves in abject co-dependence with someone cruel and controlling, well…that doesn’t mean we have to stay. Gather your courage and leave Simon Legree. As the James Gang so aptly sang, walk away.

Quote

The typical gaslighter defies Copernican theory. They think THEY are, in fact, the center of the universe. In reality, this blustery bravado masks rampant insecurity. Inside, they’re just scared little boys and girls , very much afraid to be hurt, yet they think they’re too smart, too superior to actually feel the pain they’ve so deeply buried.

Sadly, this fear-based arrogance means they themselves have been “gaslit”…made victims by their own actions.

The Anticult wrote

Quote

And they rationalize it with either not caring, or don't think about it, or think its FUNNY and laugh like Ross Jeffries in that video, or believe some Libertarian stuff, or Ayn Rand Virtue of Selfishness, etc.

Or...they see themselves as mind technicians or even as magicians.

A little wisdom tale from real life:

I knew a fellow who was paraplegic and in a wheelchair. Early in our friendship, I offered to open doors for him.

He refused to let me help him and insisted on pulling doors open even though it took considerable effort.

'If I dont open doors for myself' he explained, 'my arm muscles will get weak from lack of use. I have to maintain my upper body strength. So that is why I have to turn down helpful offers from people.'

So this may be a clue to what happens to some persons who are adroit at covert use of 'tech' that bypasses the cosncious mind.

They may become dependent on the 'tech' because they lose patience, lose ability to negotiate openly with people, lose ability to tolerate the frustration of having someone say 'No' to them.

Expertise at NLP and other covert methods may become a crutch. And rather than admit this, these persons may engage in ego inflation, seeing themselves as special, when they're becoming prisoners of thier 'tech', the way some celebrities become unable to function without the protection and support of an entourage.

Long term, these mind technicians may become less able to enjoy peer to peer adult communication, because their normal communication skills atrophy over the years.

They may be unable to socialize except in the LGAT/Human Potential/New Wage scene.

And rather than face this, they will want the rest of us 'normies' to become just like them--or become inmates in their trademarked fiefdoms.

Again, very important posts by Meadow, for numerous reasons.
first off, it shows the outright flagrant lies, yes lies, from the BK related people who say they have stopped "suggesting" people hand over their wedding rings. That is yet another in a long series of lies.

And sadly, this person does NOT realize what the "wedding ring" thing is really about.
What is it about?
Its about symbolic Transference, a deeply powerful psychological process.
So Byron Katie wants them to "give away" their wedding ring, and give it to Byron Katie and her people.
This is not rocket science. Its NOT about letting go of the things of the world, that is another falsehood.
Its about symbolic Transference of someone's most deeply and emotionally valued item, and to TRANSFER that from the sacred act of a marriage, which for most people occurs "before God", and between the couple.

And its the act of Transfering those feelings to who? To Byron Katie.
Its totally blatant and in your face.
Sick sick sick sick.
Even the most cynical NLP hypno-weasel would not be able to stomach that one. Byron Katie deliberately inserting herself inside the middle of people's marriages. Sick.
And to give away the wedding ring your husband bought for you, could start a divorce process. These LGAT seminars are all DIVORCE MACHINES, on purpose.
Thank goodness that this person's common sense hung in there at least that far.

But notice how the BK Turnaround has then made this person feel GUILT and vicious self-blame and self-abuse, for not being "spiritual" enough? Its one of the most perverse Byron Katie Mind-screwing one is going to see out there, and it happens automatically, if a person uses her "system".


Then this quote, is actually even worse, for a person who is deep into BK's system.

Quote

If you knew how important you are—and without the story you come to know it—you would fragment into a billion pieces and just be light.

Anyone with the tiniest fragment of knowledge about these techniques, sees instantly what that is. Its about deliberately and consciously using embedded commands, to try to trigger their identity and sense of self to SHATTER and FRAGMENT. That is decompensation. That is when people just fall-apart, and literally can't cope, and just spin-out. Its the opposite of a healthy, integrated personhood.
And she is trying to do it deliberately, over Twitter, catching people off-guard and by surprise, when its most powerful. This is done deliberately, of course.
Why?
Simply to work towards shaping people who are totally dependent on her, and look to her for everything, and give her everything.
Its really sick and terribly damaging stuff.

Quote
Meadow
This is a very recent post on one of BK’s forums (jumping back to the wedding rings).

Quote

…I did not give my wedding ring away....- this was the most valuable thing that I had with me at the School.
I did not give it away because I was afraid that my husband would be disappointed and think what weird and crazy things I am doing at my "strange kind of spiritual workshop", that he would regard me as completely crazy and that he would try to persuade me to stop doing the work.

And that means that I was a coward, that I did not do my exercise with full heart, I was weak and that I can´t let go of things of the world. That I am stuck in the material world and that I am not spiritual, that my heart is cold.

Here is BK's last one on Twitter:

Quote

If you knew how important you are—and without the story you come to know it—you would fragment into a billion pieces and just be light.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2009 09:38AM by The Anticult.