Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 15, 2009 08:55PM
Death Trains
An Ides of April rant from someone whose Jewish grandmother was killed by the Nazis and who is surrounded by friends working day and night to bring same sex Marriage Equality to our benighted part of the USA:
The Nazi run concentration camps were the culminating point of a long process of breaking people. The trip by train to the camps was part of the breaking process and needs to be examined.
To Byron Katie and any of her devotees, helpers (paid or unpaid)who happen themselves to be from Jewish backgrounds and thus, to be amongst the mispocha:
These were NOT 'Jewish camps', HONEY. To call something 'Jewish' implies that it is identified with or owned by Jews, which the concentration camps, most certainly, were not.
They were Nazi designed and run, KZ camps HONEY.
'I am free'.
This ignores how thought and reflection are shut down and compromised by bodily exhaustion and trauma.
* You were often pounded down and degraded by years of living under Nazi prejudice. If you'd been in a ghetto, you might already have been suffering malnutrition due to starvation rationing imposed by Nazi food regulation, and may well have seen many of your friends and loved ones dying from lack of medical care and diseases such as typhus.
*You were crammed onto train cars. (In some cases, earlier in the Nazi years, people were allowed to travel in luxury thinking they were being taken to a holiday resort, not knowing it was an extermination camp. Lack of disclosure--and with a vengeance)
Note the Nazis calculated just how many human beings could be smashed into a single train care. If you would like to lose sleep and have your heart broken view Landzmanns Shoah, part one, which quotes Nazi documents quoting all this.
It took days, in ghastly conditons on those death trains (but people often didnot know this). You couldnt take a shower, your neighbors might be going insane and screaming. You couldnt drink or eat enough to stay sane.
((I have seen dehydrated people during athletic events and can assure readers that dehydration alone can make someone go nuts. On those death trains, many were dehydrated))
You were also in a state of shame and degradation because you'd pissed on each other and women may have had their periods.
So you'd have been CRAVING to take a shower by the time you all staggered off those trains. And people were disoriented.
Free choice in such a context is impossible.
Then, if you even survive the selection process, you are separated from your family, gender and age segregated. Much of our identity comes from family and friendships and wham, you lost all those in the camps.
Two...given a number instead of a name and a uniform.
Finally, remember the KZ camps were on a scale no one had ever experienced before.
There was no previous example of this. Nothing like this had ever happened.
Even today, the denialists dont want to believe it.
And....if anyone rebelled they were usually caught and executed, and the inmates compelled to watch.
Starvation, terror, psychic numbing. You lose your ability to chose because the welfare of your mind depends on your body.
(Note: Captain Phillips, of the Maersk owned Alabama was very smart in trying to escape early in his captivity---which, terrifying as it was, lasted 5 days, not the months and years of being under the boot of Nazism. When you are still well fed, only just been captured, still have your baseline health, and have not been in custody too long, you can more easily make choices to escape. Stockholm syndrome where you bond with your captor, is much more likely if one remains longer in captivity, gets worn down by fear, fatigue and the captors become familiar presences. )
Three, among those persons singled out for the worst treatment were Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses.
However, before I continue the analysis, Jews were first and foremost on Hitler's hate list, and in his writings, long before he attained power. And anti Semitism was an ugly thread in Europe, but especially Germany and Eastern Europe, providing a 'docking point' to which Hitler could attach his poisonous pedagogy.
Two, even in the United, States, in the 1920s and 1930s, many good hotels, even in places big cities had signs -- 'No Jews and dogs allowed.'
So, did Jews make this happen to us, eh?
My father told me this. He looked obviously Jewish and would have borne the brunt.
This same matter of the anti semitic hotel signs is described by Theodor Reik, a psychanalyst in one of his books, I think, 'Listening With the Third Ear.' That same book is full of references that relate to Reik's own experiences grow up Jewish in pre-World War I Vienna.
A bit more history, in case any of BK's devotees do not identify as Jews but do identify as gay or lesbian:
The pink triangle, associated with the gay liberation movement, was a conscious reclaiming, by that community of what had been a symbol of stigmatization and horror.
Along with Jews, homosexuals were at especially grave risk of being selected for Nazi medical torture, euphemized as 'experiments'.
It was not until just a few years ago that a memorial to homosexual victims of Nazism was designed and unveiled.
The Nazi hatred of homosexuals was all the more ironic because Rohm, one of Hitlers earliest buddies and supporters, was homosexual, as were many in his contingent.
Hitler arranged to have Rohm murdered when the two of them disagreed.
(AL Rowse, Homosexuality in History)
In the darkest years of the AIDS pandemic, the pink triangle was part of the ACT-UP
logo, with the words, Silence = Death
And, at Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, there are the words, in bronze,
People be Vigilent
And, the words from the Zen story that does not include use of any stick:
'I would rather be ground to pieces than darken the mind of a single student'.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2009 09:22PM by corboy.
Quote
So a Jewish (?) camp full of Nazis and they want me to clean up the garbage. I am free. I do not have to do it. I'm free. They can torture me and I still don't have to do it. I'm free! If I want to live I might clean up the garbage.
An Ides of April rant from someone whose Jewish grandmother was killed by the Nazis and who is surrounded by friends working day and night to bring same sex Marriage Equality to our benighted part of the USA:
The Nazi run concentration camps were the culminating point of a long process of breaking people. The trip by train to the camps was part of the breaking process and needs to be examined.
To Byron Katie and any of her devotees, helpers (paid or unpaid)who happen themselves to be from Jewish backgrounds and thus, to be amongst the mispocha:
These were NOT 'Jewish camps', HONEY. To call something 'Jewish' implies that it is identified with or owned by Jews, which the concentration camps, most certainly, were not.
They were Nazi designed and run, KZ camps HONEY.
'I am free'.
This ignores how thought and reflection are shut down and compromised by bodily exhaustion and trauma.
* You were often pounded down and degraded by years of living under Nazi prejudice. If you'd been in a ghetto, you might already have been suffering malnutrition due to starvation rationing imposed by Nazi food regulation, and may well have seen many of your friends and loved ones dying from lack of medical care and diseases such as typhus.
*You were crammed onto train cars. (In some cases, earlier in the Nazi years, people were allowed to travel in luxury thinking they were being taken to a holiday resort, not knowing it was an extermination camp. Lack of disclosure--and with a vengeance)
Note the Nazis calculated just how many human beings could be smashed into a single train care. If you would like to lose sleep and have your heart broken view Landzmanns Shoah, part one, which quotes Nazi documents quoting all this.
It took days, in ghastly conditons on those death trains (but people often didnot know this). You couldnt take a shower, your neighbors might be going insane and screaming. You couldnt drink or eat enough to stay sane.
((I have seen dehydrated people during athletic events and can assure readers that dehydration alone can make someone go nuts. On those death trains, many were dehydrated))
You were also in a state of shame and degradation because you'd pissed on each other and women may have had their periods.
So you'd have been CRAVING to take a shower by the time you all staggered off those trains. And people were disoriented.
Free choice in such a context is impossible.
Then, if you even survive the selection process, you are separated from your family, gender and age segregated. Much of our identity comes from family and friendships and wham, you lost all those in the camps.
Two...given a number instead of a name and a uniform.
Finally, remember the KZ camps were on a scale no one had ever experienced before.
There was no previous example of this. Nothing like this had ever happened.
Even today, the denialists dont want to believe it.
And....if anyone rebelled they were usually caught and executed, and the inmates compelled to watch.
Starvation, terror, psychic numbing. You lose your ability to chose because the welfare of your mind depends on your body.
(Note: Captain Phillips, of the Maersk owned Alabama was very smart in trying to escape early in his captivity---which, terrifying as it was, lasted 5 days, not the months and years of being under the boot of Nazism. When you are still well fed, only just been captured, still have your baseline health, and have not been in custody too long, you can more easily make choices to escape. Stockholm syndrome where you bond with your captor, is much more likely if one remains longer in captivity, gets worn down by fear, fatigue and the captors become familiar presences. )
Three, among those persons singled out for the worst treatment were Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses.
However, before I continue the analysis, Jews were first and foremost on Hitler's hate list, and in his writings, long before he attained power. And anti Semitism was an ugly thread in Europe, but especially Germany and Eastern Europe, providing a 'docking point' to which Hitler could attach his poisonous pedagogy.
Two, even in the United, States, in the 1920s and 1930s, many good hotels, even in places big cities had signs -- 'No Jews and dogs allowed.'
So, did Jews make this happen to us, eh?
My father told me this. He looked obviously Jewish and would have borne the brunt.
This same matter of the anti semitic hotel signs is described by Theodor Reik, a psychanalyst in one of his books, I think, 'Listening With the Third Ear.' That same book is full of references that relate to Reik's own experiences grow up Jewish in pre-World War I Vienna.
A bit more history, in case any of BK's devotees do not identify as Jews but do identify as gay or lesbian:
The pink triangle, associated with the gay liberation movement, was a conscious reclaiming, by that community of what had been a symbol of stigmatization and horror.
Along with Jews, homosexuals were at especially grave risk of being selected for Nazi medical torture, euphemized as 'experiments'.
It was not until just a few years ago that a memorial to homosexual victims of Nazism was designed and unveiled.
The Nazi hatred of homosexuals was all the more ironic because Rohm, one of Hitlers earliest buddies and supporters, was homosexual, as were many in his contingent.
Hitler arranged to have Rohm murdered when the two of them disagreed.
(AL Rowse, Homosexuality in History)
In the darkest years of the AIDS pandemic, the pink triangle was part of the ACT-UP
logo, with the words, Silence = Death
And, at Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, there are the words, in bronze,
People be Vigilent
And, the words from the Zen story that does not include use of any stick:
'I would rather be ground to pieces than darken the mind of a single student'.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2009 09:22PM by corboy.
Re: Byron Katie Turnaround House - Invited?
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: April 15, 2009 09:16PM
Quote
The Anticult
This is all accurate.
The stuff about the "invitations" is more of the specific technical permissive language BK uses.
That is from the "permissive" branch of the new hypnotherapy.
This is why BK constantly says...I INVITE you to do _____.
That permissive invitation, is more powerful than a direct suggestion.
Here is a "testimony" of an alleged attendee known as "KB" at the Byron Katie Turnaround House, who was "invited" there:
Turnaround House: A Letter of Gratitude
I ran away from a 29 year marriage with 2 suitcases and not much else. I was in such a state of fear/anxiety that I was shaking uncontrollably as I drove away from the house...fearing I might meet my husband on the road somewhere in the very rural small town setting where we lived.
I was forced to give up my medications for depression/anxiety because he chose not to work and to use all of our savings until we had none left and he applied for welfare. My attempt at suicide to escape the darkness, loneliness and utter fear/desperation failed--he left me lie unconscious for 3 days in our bed without ever calling 911. Somehow, when I awoke, he just yelled as usual that I "should go live in a f--in hole somewhere and not be so selfish to do something like that again!" This from a man who was a former CEO of a company and now due to his life choices, our family was on welfare and without any insurance or income.
My thoughts were in such a state of confusion, I couldn't think. I was just in survival mode there for months now. I left the state and ran to family for safety and relief. I spent the better part of the next year sobbing, unable to eat/sleep and barely functioning day-to-day. During the year, I tried talking to him, he was unwilling. I finally filed for divorce and after having to go back to the state again and see him (and him yelling abusively at me as though I had never left a year before, and this time in front of one of our children), I knew it was the only thing I could have done. After the divorce hearing and seeing him again was so devastating, returning back to my family again, I was inconsolable. I felt complete devastation and was consumed by suicidal thoughts. Unable again to eat/sleep/think I spent one night hugging the toilet bowl on the bathroom floor for 10 hours dry-heaving and sobbing. I didn't know what to do. I saw Byron Katie on YouTube and had had two of her books. It looked like relief. I picked up her book and couldn't even process the sentences in my head I was in such an awful place. I just continued to watch videos. Then, I found her website and wrote a letter about myself and my situation. I received a response almost immediately which helped me hang on. Katie invited me to Turnaround House and I gratefully accepted that invitation.
It was difficult for me to imagine attending the program, but I felt it was my only hope for a way out. On the way to California on the plane I finally read Katie's book Loving What Is and I felt so much better afterwards seeing how much her program had helped people who were confused and in fear to become at peace with themselves. I felt Katie could resonate with me personally as I was coming from a very similarly dark place that she had lived in herself before finding her way out through The Work. Although I had never met her, I trusted her completely.
I attended the Turnaround House program and am now home. To say this was life-changing is a serious understatement. Words cannot begin to describe that I am not the same person coming out that went into it. I am happy and have a peacefulness within my life which I have never known before. I know I will never need depression/anxiety medications again. I know now that LOVE heals. This program is LOVE. Katie and her staff were completely committed to loving me and helping me heal myself. Its all about self-realization and self-empowerment. I have the confidence to face whatever comes in life now.
I am so grateful to Katie for taking me into her heart and program and giving me the tools to have the life I now know I deserve and love. I love them all and I love me now too.
KB
[[url=http://www.byronkatie.com/2009/04/turnaround_house_a_letter_of_g.htm]Turnaround House: A Letter of Gratitude[/url]]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
free@last
()
Date: April 15, 2009 09:56PM
Quote
Anticult
Frankly, Byron Katie's Nazi material should be reported to the Anti-Defamation League, so they can take a look at it. Byron Katie has no right to make public examples of people who were mass murdered at the hands of the Nazi's.
Victor Fankl, who was in Nazi death camps and thus had a right to talk about it, spoke eloquently about human freedom in the face of murderous tyranny.
Victor Frankl, in his study of survivors of the Nazi concentration camps, noticed that those who survived had a common quality: the ability to transform suffering into meaning. Spirituality is about meaning, and asking questions like, Why do bad things happen? and Who is in charge of it all?...Suffering simply is. It's not fair, right or wrong. It simply is. However, how I respond is critical. How I take action, how I grow, and how I become a more spiritual person is the most important thing.
from A Gentle Path through the 12 Steps by Patrick Carnes PhD
If the ability to transform suffering into meaning enhances survival and true spirituality, what about BK's focus on "eliminating" suffering?
Quote
Anticult
Byron Katie's thought-control system, is literally a type of mental concentration camp, sold under the guise of freedom.
The Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz had a slogan at the gate..."Arbeit Macht Frei", which translates to, Work Makes You Free.
I don't normally watch TV (I don't enjoy being brainwashed), but the other day I was at someone's house who had one on. Periodically, one of those moving phrases kept trailing along the bottom of the screen - "April 13th is Tax Freedom Day." Tax Freedom! Who ever heard those two words being used together?
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 16, 2009 12:58AM
The Custody of Stories, the Making or Umaking of History
There have been persons who have posted some Participant Reports on other venues. Some appear to feel concerned or uncomfortable to find their disclosures quoted here.
We are not trying to make people feel frightened. We are trying to preserve people's stories, trying to preserve history.
A vital area where RR.com differs from the New Age, and especially differs from Byron Katie 'scene' is we consider that your story does matter.
Stories, especially when they threaten powerful vested interests, can disappear from the internet, whereas a book or journal article can be found if a libarian searches long enough.
Unlike print media, on paper, the internet is not a stable source of information.
Its not always enough to break silence and report 'in cyberspace.'
Cyberspace venues--blogs, websites, discussion fora--differ in stability, that is their capacity to maintain and protect the information, the stories, not only while persons post and discuss there, but after people put their stories there.
An owner of a blog or website owner may find him or herself unable to pay to support their site or some later personal misfortune may leave them no energy to maintain the site.
Or, in the future, someone else might purchase that website, or blog from its current owner.
What becomes of the story you entrusted to it?
Or, discussion forums can suddenly close down.
Unlike many blogs and websites, RR.com has demonstrated a remarkable degree of stability. This discussion board has been in place since June 19th or 20th, 2002
RR.com is owned by a man who has been certified to testify as in expert witness in several court districts.
Mr Ross has earned the respect of a series of eminent attorneys and their law firms, and has made history in a series of First Amendment lawsuits which not only protected the Ross Institute's website, but also...defended and protected the anonymity of all the persons who used this message board to discuss Landmark Education.
History is fragile. This can be readily exploited to silence the cries of the oppressed.
We are trying to preserve history as it is spoken and written--and too many other source texts for this Unfolding Story have become hard to find--such as Cry in the Desert, and Losing the Moon.
It is very important to bear witness on an internet venue capable of protecting your material so that future generations can read it and benefit from it.
History is made and history is dominated, not only by those who win wars, but especially by those who control which texts are preserved and which texts are suppressed.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 01:06AM by corboy.
There have been persons who have posted some Participant Reports on other venues. Some appear to feel concerned or uncomfortable to find their disclosures quoted here.
We are not trying to make people feel frightened. We are trying to preserve people's stories, trying to preserve history.
A vital area where RR.com differs from the New Age, and especially differs from Byron Katie 'scene' is we consider that your story does matter.
Stories, especially when they threaten powerful vested interests, can disappear from the internet, whereas a book or journal article can be found if a libarian searches long enough.
Unlike print media, on paper, the internet is not a stable source of information.
Its not always enough to break silence and report 'in cyberspace.'
Cyberspace venues--blogs, websites, discussion fora--differ in stability, that is their capacity to maintain and protect the information, the stories, not only while persons post and discuss there, but after people put their stories there.
An owner of a blog or website owner may find him or herself unable to pay to support their site or some later personal misfortune may leave them no energy to maintain the site.
Or, in the future, someone else might purchase that website, or blog from its current owner.
What becomes of the story you entrusted to it?
Or, discussion forums can suddenly close down.
Unlike many blogs and websites, RR.com has demonstrated a remarkable degree of stability. This discussion board has been in place since June 19th or 20th, 2002
RR.com is owned by a man who has been certified to testify as in expert witness in several court districts.
Mr Ross has earned the respect of a series of eminent attorneys and their law firms, and has made history in a series of First Amendment lawsuits which not only protected the Ross Institute's website, but also...defended and protected the anonymity of all the persons who used this message board to discuss Landmark Education.
History is fragile. This can be readily exploited to silence the cries of the oppressed.
We are trying to preserve history as it is spoken and written--and too many other source texts for this Unfolding Story have become hard to find--such as Cry in the Desert, and Losing the Moon.
It is very important to bear witness on an internet venue capable of protecting your material so that future generations can read it and benefit from it.
History is made and history is dominated, not only by those who win wars, but especially by those who control which texts are preserved and which texts are suppressed.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 01:06AM by corboy.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Turnaround House
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: April 16, 2009 01:52AM
That alleged letter; Turnaround House: A Letter of Gratitude, is obviously fabricated. Its obvious they wrote it. They constantly fabricate "letters" on that site, and use it at a form of Testimonial Advertising.
First off, where did she get the money, where did she get the 20K-30K?
Also, they put this line in "Although I had never met her, I trusted her completely".
See it? That is an embedded command, meant to reach out to desperate people, who are a bit unstable. Anyone knows you do NOT trust people you have never met, trust is EARNED. They want some unstable person who's never met BK to "trust her completely" which is very dangerous, of course.
They are targeting people who are emotionally desperate, and happen to have $30,000 available.
Concerning Victor Frankl and suffering, and BK's claims to "eliminate suffering". Honestly, it really appears to just be a marketing trick. All marketing is...eliminate pain....enhance pleasure. Also, people take hard drugs to eliminate suffering too. So yes, wanting to eliminate suffering is spiritually bankrupt, its also impossible. So this will make people stay with BK for life, trying to find that escape from pain, that will never come, all they may get is dissociation, which is the ultimate pain and misery.
Concerning participant reports: whenever something is posted in the internet, it is indexed by many search engines, and even automated blogs, into the internet archive, etc. So the information goes out into the internet into dozens of places automatically, it can end up archived on Usenet, as well.
There have been many posts taken from this website, and copied and reposted in many places.
And as mentioned, most critical information about these groups tends to get Disappeared. For example, the ONLY analysis of the damaging group Royal Way, which is hurting a lot of families, is here. [forum.culteducation.com] Every other place with any post about Royal Way has been forced down.
The Byron Katie group had taken down a lot of information before this began, and has mentioned has systematically destroyed previous books, etc.
The Institute For The Work recently CLOSED their Open Forum on their webite [forum.culteducation.com] as apparently a few people were asking a few mild questions, and they can't tolerate open discussion and open questions.
This news article was taken out of the search engine indexes, its about former Byron Katie facilitator Rochelle Laudenslager, where Byron Katie makes some ridiculous statements, and also says "The Work can heal mental illness".
Murder suspect claimed self-help plan helped her
[www.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 01:59AM by The Anticult.
First off, where did she get the money, where did she get the 20K-30K?
Also, they put this line in "Although I had never met her, I trusted her completely".
See it? That is an embedded command, meant to reach out to desperate people, who are a bit unstable. Anyone knows you do NOT trust people you have never met, trust is EARNED. They want some unstable person who's never met BK to "trust her completely" which is very dangerous, of course.
They are targeting people who are emotionally desperate, and happen to have $30,000 available.
Concerning Victor Frankl and suffering, and BK's claims to "eliminate suffering". Honestly, it really appears to just be a marketing trick. All marketing is...eliminate pain....enhance pleasure. Also, people take hard drugs to eliminate suffering too. So yes, wanting to eliminate suffering is spiritually bankrupt, its also impossible. So this will make people stay with BK for life, trying to find that escape from pain, that will never come, all they may get is dissociation, which is the ultimate pain and misery.
Concerning participant reports: whenever something is posted in the internet, it is indexed by many search engines, and even automated blogs, into the internet archive, etc. So the information goes out into the internet into dozens of places automatically, it can end up archived on Usenet, as well.
There have been many posts taken from this website, and copied and reposted in many places.
And as mentioned, most critical information about these groups tends to get Disappeared. For example, the ONLY analysis of the damaging group Royal Way, which is hurting a lot of families, is here. [forum.culteducation.com] Every other place with any post about Royal Way has been forced down.
The Byron Katie group had taken down a lot of information before this began, and has mentioned has systematically destroyed previous books, etc.
The Institute For The Work recently CLOSED their Open Forum on their webite [forum.culteducation.com] as apparently a few people were asking a few mild questions, and they can't tolerate open discussion and open questions.
This news article was taken out of the search engine indexes, its about former Byron Katie facilitator Rochelle Laudenslager, where Byron Katie makes some ridiculous statements, and also says "The Work can heal mental illness".
Murder suspect claimed self-help plan helped her
[www.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 01:59AM by The Anticult.
Byron Katie, Voluntary Nazi death camps
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: April 16, 2009 02:33AM
another thing about the Nazi death camp stories that BK tells, about Voluntary and Victims.
It clearly meant as a coded symbolic meaning to her own people. Its saying...there is no such thing as coercive influence, even at the point of a gun or torture. So if someone can be taught to believe that, then they certainly are not going to believe an LGAT seminar can have extreme covert and social influence on a person, and get them to do things they normally wouldn't do. They also won't even believe there is such a thing as Thought-Reform.
If you don't believe a Nazi torturing you is coercive influence, then there is no such thing as coercive influence.
So when the BK people find themselves working for years, with no pay, or little pay for a for-profit company making millions, and are feeling manipulated, lied to, used, taken advantage of...then these types of Stories are meant to make them think they are NOT being manipulated, and have made an informed choice.
But you cannot make an informed voluntary choice, when you are being deceived, tricked, duped, and lied to, for example.
Without full disclosure, or even reasonable disclosure, then the choice is not "voluntary", it is manipulated, massaged, coerced, and engineered.
If you are invited to do an interview with someone, and it turns out you were actually invited to an LGAT seminar, that is not voluntary, that is a trick, that is a lie.
If someone does a bait-and-switch, or does false advertising, that is not voluntary, that is deceit.
As far as there are no "victims" in the Nazi death camps, and her other comments about victims, in terms of rape, etc.
This seems to be the same pattern.
People who are inside the BK system, being used, and duped, start feeling like they are being victimized, and start to get pissed off. But if you can convince them, that getting angry at being used is WRONG, that can short-circuit those feelings in people.
Like when Solea said...she was... "living in the group house basement....cleaning dishes, making coffee at work and taking out the garbage". [forum.culteducation.com] They have to train people to make them think they have freely chosen that, when in fact they have been powerfully socially coerced into doing it. They need to re-train them to suppress their own healthy feelings which would make them get out of there.
They are playing with people's minds, of course.
It was learned decades ago, the most powerful brainwashing, has to be perceived as "voluntary" by the recipient. That was learned in the Korean brainwashing experiments decades ago, where they got soldiers to write those statements, and has been carefully documented. That is what is happening here. The recipient needs to think all their choices are "voluntary" when in fact they have been engineered by the environment. (again, this has all written up and explained).
Since Byron Katie claims there are no victims, only voluntary volunteers, then people involved with Byron Katie should feel ZERO guilt exposing what is going on there. By posting the facts on the internet, going to the media, etc. Byron Katie cannot complain, as that is playing the victim.
So if people know about money being stuffed in suitcases to cross borders, or suicide cocktail parties being talked about, then the media needs to be informed. That is dangerous stuff.
In fact, its a moral obligation to openly report the realities of what is going on.
And it also does not go against anything Byron Katie professes to "believe" or teach.
The core reality, is that there is very serious persuasion engineering occuring, and the most powerful forms of this, are when the recipient, is carefully lead to make many subtle smaller decisions, which are perceived as "voluntary" and reinforced as such. But in fact these decisions have been shaped and manipulated in countless ways, from language patterns, to social influence. This is why the BK 'staff' is so pushy and forceful towards people at the LGAT, that is the point of power to get them to seemingly make "voluntary" decisions when under intense social pressure.
Anyone at these groups who resists, or speaks out, will be at least socially ostracized, or kicked out of the seminar, so that pressure influences people to conform to the group behavior.
The data for this is out there, and we'll get that in this thread.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 02:39AM by The Anticult.
It clearly meant as a coded symbolic meaning to her own people. Its saying...there is no such thing as coercive influence, even at the point of a gun or torture. So if someone can be taught to believe that, then they certainly are not going to believe an LGAT seminar can have extreme covert and social influence on a person, and get them to do things they normally wouldn't do. They also won't even believe there is such a thing as Thought-Reform.
If you don't believe a Nazi torturing you is coercive influence, then there is no such thing as coercive influence.
So when the BK people find themselves working for years, with no pay, or little pay for a for-profit company making millions, and are feeling manipulated, lied to, used, taken advantage of...then these types of Stories are meant to make them think they are NOT being manipulated, and have made an informed choice.
But you cannot make an informed voluntary choice, when you are being deceived, tricked, duped, and lied to, for example.
Without full disclosure, or even reasonable disclosure, then the choice is not "voluntary", it is manipulated, massaged, coerced, and engineered.
If you are invited to do an interview with someone, and it turns out you were actually invited to an LGAT seminar, that is not voluntary, that is a trick, that is a lie.
If someone does a bait-and-switch, or does false advertising, that is not voluntary, that is deceit.
As far as there are no "victims" in the Nazi death camps, and her other comments about victims, in terms of rape, etc.
This seems to be the same pattern.
People who are inside the BK system, being used, and duped, start feeling like they are being victimized, and start to get pissed off. But if you can convince them, that getting angry at being used is WRONG, that can short-circuit those feelings in people.
Like when Solea said...she was... "living in the group house basement....cleaning dishes, making coffee at work and taking out the garbage". [forum.culteducation.com] They have to train people to make them think they have freely chosen that, when in fact they have been powerfully socially coerced into doing it. They need to re-train them to suppress their own healthy feelings which would make them get out of there.
They are playing with people's minds, of course.
It was learned decades ago, the most powerful brainwashing, has to be perceived as "voluntary" by the recipient. That was learned in the Korean brainwashing experiments decades ago, where they got soldiers to write those statements, and has been carefully documented. That is what is happening here. The recipient needs to think all their choices are "voluntary" when in fact they have been engineered by the environment. (again, this has all written up and explained).
Since Byron Katie claims there are no victims, only voluntary volunteers, then people involved with Byron Katie should feel ZERO guilt exposing what is going on there. By posting the facts on the internet, going to the media, etc. Byron Katie cannot complain, as that is playing the victim.
So if people know about money being stuffed in suitcases to cross borders, or suicide cocktail parties being talked about, then the media needs to be informed. That is dangerous stuff.
In fact, its a moral obligation to openly report the realities of what is going on.
And it also does not go against anything Byron Katie professes to "believe" or teach.
The core reality, is that there is very serious persuasion engineering occuring, and the most powerful forms of this, are when the recipient, is carefully lead to make many subtle smaller decisions, which are perceived as "voluntary" and reinforced as such. But in fact these decisions have been shaped and manipulated in countless ways, from language patterns, to social influence. This is why the BK 'staff' is so pushy and forceful towards people at the LGAT, that is the point of power to get them to seemingly make "voluntary" decisions when under intense social pressure.
Anyone at these groups who resists, or speaks out, will be at least socially ostracized, or kicked out of the seminar, so that pressure influences people to conform to the group behavior.
The data for this is out there, and we'll get that in this thread.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 02:39AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie, cross-posting
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: April 16, 2009 03:35AM
hey...also, concerning CROSS-POSTING, where posts are getting cross-posted!
Of course most cross-posting occurs, as links on the internet go dead constantly, so its very routine to cross-post info on the internets.
There have been many posts from this thread that were cross-posted onto Guruphiliac, for example, and also other websites and blogs automatically, like here, and many other places. [anewearth.oz-blog.org]
But that being said, if a particular person doesn't want particular posts cross-posted, then its an easy solution.
Just ask the moderator to DELETE those posts from the thread, as members don't have a delete button after 30 minutes.
then, a simple LINK can be provided to the post in another forum. That way, if the person wants to delete that post later, or alter it, then they have that control.
So why not just get the posts deleted, and problem solved?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 03:37AM by The Anticult.
Of course most cross-posting occurs, as links on the internet go dead constantly, so its very routine to cross-post info on the internets.
There have been many posts from this thread that were cross-posted onto Guruphiliac, for example, and also other websites and blogs automatically, like here, and many other places. [anewearth.oz-blog.org]
But that being said, if a particular person doesn't want particular posts cross-posted, then its an easy solution.
Just ask the moderator to DELETE those posts from the thread, as members don't have a delete button after 30 minutes.
then, a simple LINK can be provided to the post in another forum. That way, if the person wants to delete that post later, or alter it, then they have that control.
So why not just get the posts deleted, and problem solved?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2009 03:37AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Jay Cruise
()
Date: April 16, 2009 08:16AM
Thanks Corboy for putting BK's comments into a factual perspective. Well said!
I put the question mark after jewish because it really sounds like she says jewishian. She may have said "a jewish in a camp full of nazis" but it doesn't sound right using an adjective as a noun. I was hoping someone could offer an opinion. Otherwise she might think jewish people are Jewishians :P
As for people who support Byron Katie's rewriting of history, Stephen Mitchell, Roshi Bernie Glassman and our friend Jedi, I mean, Zen Master Stuart Resnick come from Jewish families. Perhaps financial benefits are more attractive than upholding their heritage.
At the end of this video BK on youtube tells to a young girl that even under torture we are responsible for our actions: What's the reality of pressure?
"You know someone could torture me and as an intelligent human being, but before you do that what do you want? That could save you a lot of trouble and me a lot of pain. And that doesn't mean they won't torture me anyway, but as an intelligent being, I make the choice. I make the choice. If they are torturing me and I say it, I give them what they want because they tortured me. Who made the decision? I did. I can't say "they tortured me, they made me do it." I did it. It's an intelligent decision. And it doesn't mean they're gonna to stop. I cannot, cannot not take responsibility for my own mind and action. Because until I take responsibility the world is my problem." [www.youtube.com]
Her idea of freewill exists under all circumstances. She often says that she wouldn't mind walking through dangerous neighbourhoods at night, which is not taking into account the safety of her followers who might follow her example. What's worse is that there is no way someone so interested in profitting off her followers would ever put themselves in danger.
So her followers are told not to worry about possible consequences of their actions, not to be concerned if something terrible happens to them and to consider themselves the perpetrator when they feel victimized. She's losing the plot.
BTW could the master mean: ground to pieces by a Zen Stick? :P
I put the question mark after jewish because it really sounds like she says jewishian. She may have said "a jewish in a camp full of nazis" but it doesn't sound right using an adjective as a noun. I was hoping someone could offer an opinion. Otherwise she might think jewish people are Jewishians :P
As for people who support Byron Katie's rewriting of history, Stephen Mitchell, Roshi Bernie Glassman and our friend Jedi, I mean, Zen Master Stuart Resnick come from Jewish families. Perhaps financial benefits are more attractive than upholding their heritage.
At the end of this video BK on youtube tells to a young girl that even under torture we are responsible for our actions: What's the reality of pressure?
"You know someone could torture me and as an intelligent human being, but before you do that what do you want? That could save you a lot of trouble and me a lot of pain. And that doesn't mean they won't torture me anyway, but as an intelligent being, I make the choice. I make the choice. If they are torturing me and I say it, I give them what they want because they tortured me. Who made the decision? I did. I can't say "they tortured me, they made me do it." I did it. It's an intelligent decision. And it doesn't mean they're gonna to stop. I cannot, cannot not take responsibility for my own mind and action. Because until I take responsibility the world is my problem." [www.youtube.com]
Her idea of freewill exists under all circumstances. She often says that she wouldn't mind walking through dangerous neighbourhoods at night, which is not taking into account the safety of her followers who might follow her example. What's worse is that there is no way someone so interested in profitting off her followers would ever put themselves in danger.
So her followers are told not to worry about possible consequences of their actions, not to be concerned if something terrible happens to them and to consider themselves the perpetrator when they feel victimized. She's losing the plot.
BTW could the master mean: ground to pieces by a Zen Stick? :P
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 16, 2009 09:52PM
Whether one is secular Jewish or observant, part of what defines Jewishness is the culture honors stories and story telling as a source of meaning, as a way to transmute
suffering into something larger.
The worst part of suffering is an element Simone Weil termed 'affliction'.
Affliction is not pain in the ordinary sense. Affliction is isolation, a death in life,
a state of mind and being in which you shun yourself and find others shun you.
But when a way is found to turn affliction into community--pain may still exist, but is transformed because that pain is shared, acknowledged and takes the form of something that can be passed on to others, in some cases extending that community
beyond the lifetimes of the persons who first began the story telling and bonding.
Passover has its Four Questions.
Those Four Questions did not obliterate Story, those Four Questions began a ritual in which an story of past oppression was recalled, and a place set at the table for a prophet, a stranger, to leave room for the needed surprises that keep something alive.
'Why is this night different from all other nights?'
And those Four Questions were repeated and repeated annually for thousands of years, even when Jewish communities were broken up and forced into exile.
A friend of mine told me of a book about how women survived at Terezin concentration camp. They shared stories of recipes they and thier mothers used. They could not cook in that camp, but they summoned memories of home by repeating those recipes, in hopes someday someone would survive and recreate new homes.
The persons kidnapped into slavery from Africa (hello, did this invite this?), kept the home rhythms of their music alive. And kept their core selves, their souls alive by...
And the forgiveness to take the religion used by their captors to rationalize slavery and to transform their captors religion into...Gospel
and Blues.
So many persons have discovered themselves in this music that it has, without mass marketing, starting small in out of the way places, won hearts all over the world. Mr Benny Carter, acclaimed by Leonard Feather of the LA Times, as 'Mozart of the alto Saxophone, returned by invitation again and yet again, to Japan to give performances. He was not the only one whose music won hearts and souls, by persuasion, not by mass marketing colonization.
One can impose a story (or misuse music) in such a way as to estrange people from thier own unique stories.
One can pass on, share, a story in such a way that people discover their own unique stories.
If some of us would like a healthful affirmation of story telling that brings each person home, run, do not walk and get a book by Joel ben Izzy entitled, The Beggar King and the Secret of Happiness. He has recordings, too.
Mr be Izzy is a story teller, by profession. He stumbled into it. The book is his autobiography, full of stories.
Once, I saw him perform. My take was that as he gave us stories, Mr ben Izzy was with us, yet did not pull attention to himself.
Instead, the story itself was what mattered, not his personality.
The way he wrote and spoke, the story will bring each person home to him or herself.
Each listener finds something different.
At one point, Mr ben Izzy lost his voice and was mute for a year.
In desperation he consulted ear nose and throat specialists.
Finally he was advised to go to one specialist who was the last resort.
Mr ben Izzy sent the doctor a copy of his recordings, then went in to see the doctor and had his vocal cords examined.
suffering into something larger.
The worst part of suffering is an element Simone Weil termed 'affliction'.
Affliction is not pain in the ordinary sense. Affliction is isolation, a death in life,
a state of mind and being in which you shun yourself and find others shun you.
But when a way is found to turn affliction into community--pain may still exist, but is transformed because that pain is shared, acknowledged and takes the form of something that can be passed on to others, in some cases extending that community
beyond the lifetimes of the persons who first began the story telling and bonding.
Passover has its Four Questions.
Those Four Questions did not obliterate Story, those Four Questions began a ritual in which an story of past oppression was recalled, and a place set at the table for a prophet, a stranger, to leave room for the needed surprises that keep something alive.
'Why is this night different from all other nights?'
And those Four Questions were repeated and repeated annually for thousands of years, even when Jewish communities were broken up and forced into exile.
A friend of mine told me of a book about how women survived at Terezin concentration camp. They shared stories of recipes they and thier mothers used. They could not cook in that camp, but they summoned memories of home by repeating those recipes, in hopes someday someone would survive and recreate new homes.
The persons kidnapped into slavery from Africa (hello, did this invite this?), kept the home rhythms of their music alive. And kept their core selves, their souls alive by...
And the forgiveness to take the religion used by their captors to rationalize slavery and to transform their captors religion into...Gospel
and Blues.
So many persons have discovered themselves in this music that it has, without mass marketing, starting small in out of the way places, won hearts all over the world. Mr Benny Carter, acclaimed by Leonard Feather of the LA Times, as 'Mozart of the alto Saxophone, returned by invitation again and yet again, to Japan to give performances. He was not the only one whose music won hearts and souls, by persuasion, not by mass marketing colonization.
One can impose a story (or misuse music) in such a way as to estrange people from thier own unique stories.
One can pass on, share, a story in such a way that people discover their own unique stories.
If some of us would like a healthful affirmation of story telling that brings each person home, run, do not walk and get a book by Joel ben Izzy entitled, The Beggar King and the Secret of Happiness. He has recordings, too.
Mr be Izzy is a story teller, by profession. He stumbled into it. The book is his autobiography, full of stories.
Once, I saw him perform. My take was that as he gave us stories, Mr ben Izzy was with us, yet did not pull attention to himself.
Instead, the story itself was what mattered, not his personality.
The way he wrote and spoke, the story will bring each person home to him or herself.
Each listener finds something different.
At one point, Mr ben Izzy lost his voice and was mute for a year.
In desperation he consulted ear nose and throat specialists.
Finally he was advised to go to one specialist who was the last resort.
Mr ben Izzy sent the doctor a copy of his recordings, then went in to see the doctor and had his vocal cords examined.
Quote
"Very nice stories!" (the doctor) said, holding out the tape. "I liked especially the tales of Chelm. These, I have not heard for a very long time. Now, let us see if we can find your voice."
ben Izzy wrote: 'I followed him into his office, which was lined with pictures of celebrities whose voices he had saved, so many photos it looked like a deli. After motioning me to a stool, he read carefully over my records, then stared down my throat for a very long time.
He looked again at my records, then spoke.
"You wish to know if your voice will return. And if so, when. Correct?"
I nodded.
"I see from your records it has been gone two months."
(Izzy whispered) "Only fifty-seven.......days.'
"Eight weeks", he said. "And no movement in your vocal cord. This is not a good sign. He paused, shaking his head, then sighed. "I am afraid the nerve is dead". I will not come back to life. I am sorry. Very sorry."
I stared at him, waiting for something better. After a long time, he spoke again.
"This is very hard for you, I know. You are a story teller, so perhaps it will help you to think of this as a story.
"What do the sages tell us?' He paused, lifting his eyebrows. 'The voice is the gateway to the soul.'
'And before that gateway stand two guards---your vocal cords. To make sound, they must come together--like two rabbis arguing about Talmud.
'But in your case, one rabbi is silent. Why? I wish I knew."
He paused. Then, leaning in close to me, he whispered, "Maybe he knows a secret".
The Beggar King and the Secret of Happiness, pp 47-48
Byron Katie (the Work) and Turnaround House, deceptive advertising?
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: April 17, 2009 12:18AM
another thing about that marketing letter for the Byron Katie Turnaround House.
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Think of the Story they are telling...
A Story about a woman, who is desperate, who's life is out of control, who has been abused, who is suicidal and off their meds..
and what is the BK message?
COMPLETELY TRUST SOMEONE YOU HAVE NEVER MET.
That is the BK message in her Story.
"Although I had never met (Byron Katie), I trusted her completely".
Which sane person would ever take a desperate friend, who's life feels out of control, who's judgement is impaired due to stress, and then tell them to COMPLETELY TRUST A TOTAL STRANGER?
It really is profoundly disturbing what they are trying to do with this ad, and who they are targeting.
They are literally trolling the internet, looking for people who have impaired judgement and who are desperate, and then they are influencing them to make even more bad, expensive decisions, based on desperation.
Of course, you don't trust a stranger completely! (notice they used the word completely).
Trust is earned, person to person, over a period of time. You don't "trust" strangers selling expensive seminars, over the goddang internet!
This is why they target people with impaired judgement, they are trolling the internet for vulnerable people.
Notice that healthy advice to people in trouble is what? Safety. That is step one, make a plan, get into safety, so you can calm down, and try to figure out what to do next.
What you don't do, is try to influence them to spend every dollar they have, to go to some so-called "treatment" center, when Byron Katie literally has ZERO experience in this area.
Here is a report about someone who went to one [janakisstory.wordpress.com] and Byron Katie was on Skype.
This is how cynical this is, they even will use tricky and deceptive marketing to make desperate people with impaired judgement think they are going to "be with" Byron Katie, and she isn't even there, and shows up on a Skype conference call a couple times.
Byron Katie has designed the 28 system these people are going to go through, who knows what is happening in there?
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Think of the Story they are telling...
A Story about a woman, who is desperate, who's life is out of control, who has been abused, who is suicidal and off their meds..
and what is the BK message?
COMPLETELY TRUST SOMEONE YOU HAVE NEVER MET.
That is the BK message in her Story.
"Although I had never met (Byron Katie), I trusted her completely".
Which sane person would ever take a desperate friend, who's life feels out of control, who's judgement is impaired due to stress, and then tell them to COMPLETELY TRUST A TOTAL STRANGER?
It really is profoundly disturbing what they are trying to do with this ad, and who they are targeting.
They are literally trolling the internet, looking for people who have impaired judgement and who are desperate, and then they are influencing them to make even more bad, expensive decisions, based on desperation.
Of course, you don't trust a stranger completely! (notice they used the word completely).
Trust is earned, person to person, over a period of time. You don't "trust" strangers selling expensive seminars, over the goddang internet!
This is why they target people with impaired judgement, they are trolling the internet for vulnerable people.
Notice that healthy advice to people in trouble is what? Safety. That is step one, make a plan, get into safety, so you can calm down, and try to figure out what to do next.
What you don't do, is try to influence them to spend every dollar they have, to go to some so-called "treatment" center, when Byron Katie literally has ZERO experience in this area.
Here is a report about someone who went to one [janakisstory.wordpress.com] and Byron Katie was on Skype.
This is how cynical this is, they even will use tricky and deceptive marketing to make desperate people with impaired judgement think they are going to "be with" Byron Katie, and she isn't even there, and shows up on a Skype conference call a couple times.
Byron Katie has designed the 28 system these people are going to go through, who knows what is happening in there?
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