Quote
swampseer
Okay, this is seriously confusing. As I read BK's philosophy, she says we are all "innocent." And we are, therefore, being aged. But we are also "aging ourselves." I assume we are also "paining" ourselves and "sickening" ourselves. Is she "cancering" herself? is she basal-cell-ing herself? Didn't I read she got a facelift? Well, that makes sense: before she knew that her wrinkles were all her own (innocent) projection, she allowed herself to be aged and as soon as she knew better, naturally, she got that straightened out (so to speak...bad pun).

Talk about check-mate! This labyrinthine logic will leave you googley-eyed enough to send in your credit card number for this No-Body Intensive. This is perfect timing, too: about the only thing you're going to get the Baby Boomers to plunk down money for in this day and age is something that promises to reverse aging and ailments. They already feel guilty for everything that's wrong with themselves and the world. Just slap a little Katie-think on it...oh, yeah, that's the ticket. It's as bad as The Bible; you can prove anything with BK logic and then disprove it, too.

Call me a scientist. Call me a cab.

Love this. Kudos. :-)

that makes perfect sense of course. A laptop has become the most valued possession.
Not due to the value of the machine, but due to the information and data on it.

Of course what is ironic, is the talk about 'detachment' for the members, but not for mommy and daddy. They live in a multimillion dollar estate. Someone could ask BK to detach from 1 million and give it to them, next time they see her. Ask it on the mic.

Now of course, the Valued possession gifting is really about psychological Transference, and is a warm-up act for much more "giving" to come.
People are symbolically transfering their most valued possession to BKI and Byron Katie. They are not going to forget that! That is going to go through their mind everyday, and be very powerful.

There is no way those hard drives are erased, as that is what makes them valued. If you take out the hard-drive, its worth a few hundred bucks at most. So they "give" the data too.
So what is going on there?
Psychological transference.

Also, is it possible to get back a "gift" that was given? Someone could look into that.
Also, to what extent do they data-mine what is on that laptop? Does that go into a "file" dossier for the person?
This is far worse than owning the videos of the seminars where people are breaking down.

Lastly, it becomes a type of 'voluntary' psychological ransom.
Perhaps if someone asks about getting their stuff back, the BK facilitator will simply use it to do The Work on them. This way, they keep people deeply connected with BKI for years on end.

Its a variation on the old method from the bible and ancient times...handing over your firstborn child, which was a families most valued possession.

this is extremely heavy shit folks.

Quote
Meadow
I heard from someone who recently staffed several schools with bk. This is about the gift giving. Apart from wedding bands and stuff, guess what most people these days seem to regard as their most valuable possession? Their laptop of course!! Apparently the BKI offices and staff are now equiped with laptops that came from participants tricked into practicing detachment. I wonder if they erased their hard drives before they turned them in. Can you imagine the kind of personal information BKI is obtaining this way? Perhaps people should start demanding them back.

also in terms of the private data on the laptop.
Even if it was deleted on the spot, its still all on the computer hard-drive, and can be accessed very easily. There are countless free apps that do that, like Recuva [www.recuva.com]
The only way to make an old hard-drive unreadable, is with a hammer.

Also, in terms of gift recovery, or gift reattachment surgery...

People might be able to get their "gifts" back.
Here are some ideas on how to get your stuff back! [forum.culteducation.com]

Speak with a "manager" not your typical BKI facilitator or salesperson.
They will try to mess with your mind and do The Work on it, but if you refuse to do the Work on it, and just stick to your guns, they might be forced to cough it up....voluntarily.
Of course the ace in the hole, is to let them know if they don't give your family heirloom back, then your very angry brother/husband/family, are going to voluntarily go the national media with the full story, of how you were tricked.
Daddy won't like that, and might voluntarily cough up the goods to hush it up.
After all, it seems BKI needs to learn some "detachment" too, and detach from your wedding ring.

But seriously, its all about creating deep psychological transference [forum.culteducation.com] by handing over your most valued possession.
The God-Kings in history used to do the exact same thing.

Exodus 22:29 [bible.cc]
"Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."

by the way, there is some AMAZING analysis in this thread, which can be applied to any Guru or anti-guru.
This is exactly why every single guru and anti-guru wants to kill and tame the minds of their people.
They phrase it in different ways, from No-Self, to getting over the "Ego", to being "Clear", etc.
But it amounts to the same thing.

If one checks the Byron Katie online forums, how much real analysis do you see? basically zero. Analysis has been engineered out of the Work system.
If a person does speak up from time to time, they are shouted down by the group-think.
Or in a live-seminar, if a person starts asking real questions, they are at first socially rejected, and if needed they are kicked out of the seminar.

The leaders of these groups and LGAT's FEAR critical intelligence and analysis. It terrifies them.
This is why they all want to crush it.
Because they know, just the basic asking of questions, and critical intellgence, and some research, and they are finished.
They know the Stories are your beliefs, and they want you to take on their Stories without questioning them. Question YOUR stories, but accept their concocted stories unquestioningly.

But just simple research, simply critical intelligence, just kicking the tires, and checking under the hood, and the entire house of cards collapses.

The next strategy they all do, is to create confusion. So they will seem to ask tough questions about their own process, but they make such a cloud of confusion, people don't know where to turn.
The way out of that, is careful step-by-step evidence procedure, like a scientist checking each data point. Of course, that can become confusing as well.

That is why its often easier to just shoot for the big picture. Find the Big Lies, and the salestricks and the scams. Once you find a couple of rats in the house, there are always dozens of other rats you can't see yet. So find a few rats in the place, and that's enough.

jgf75 is making some posts over at Guruphiliac
[guruphiliac.lefora.com]

Its often very difficult to tell from mere plain-text, whether someone is a true believer, a mixed believer, or if they are walking a finer tight-rope with a confusion agenda.

Its interesting how jgf75 seems to be totally self-focussed on one hand, yet at the same time talking about "referring" people to the Work, and then saying they are not a BK adherant, yet at the same time creating confusion about the meaning of the "gifting"?

But there are also some very suspicious comments, about how people commit SUICIDE in college due to stress.
QUOTE: jgf75 [guruphiliac.lefora.com]
"Leading an intense workshop doesn't automatically make her a cult, though. My college experience was very intense and some people in my dorm killed themselves. That didn't make school a cult, it just made it too intense.."

An LGAT seminar is not a college, its 9 days of bombardment with advanced psychological prodedures that destabilize people's psyches.
But that is an interesting unsolicited reference about suicide. Does jgf75 know of suicides connected to these LGAT seminars? Why bring it up?


It would be interesting if those who offer any level of support to BK, would offer their views on how Byron Katie triggers overhelming life-threatening sexual abuse trauma and PTSD in her seminars, while first making people sign a "death" clause? [forum.culteducation.com]
Why do they think that "death" clause is in there, with the other text?

Since Byron Katie is not qualified to do therapy, why is this being done? There are many reports about them talking about using The Work on PTSD.

This type of "flooding" of PTSD and sexual trauma, is one of the most damaging things to do to a person, by triggering those intrusive memories. Ask any real therapist how dangerous it is, and the suicide attempt rates.

People are attempting suicide and people are dying.
How many? 20% 40%? 73.5%?
Read the stats.

"These rates of suicide attempts increased considerably among people who had experienced multiple incidents of sexual (42.9%) or physical assault (73.5%)."

QUOTE:
_____________________________________
[www.ncptsd.va.gov]
National Center for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder
The Relationship Between PTSD and Suicide

Does PTSD increase an individual's suicide risk?
A large body of research indicates that there is a correlation between PTSD and suicide. There is evidence that traumatic events such as sexual abuse, combat trauma, rape, and domestic violence generally increase a person's suicide risk.


[ptsd.about.com]
Trauma, PTSD, and Suicide
In a survey of 5,877 people across the United States, it was found that people who had experienced physical or sexual assault at some point in their life also had a high likelihood of attempting to take their own life at some point:

Nearly 22% of people who had been raped had also attempted suicide at some point in their life.

Approximately 23% of people who had experienced a physical assault had also attempted suicide at some point in their life.

These rates of suicide attempts increased considerably among people who had experienced multiple incidents of sexual (42.9%) or physical assault (73.5%).

They also found that a history of sexual molestation, physical abuse as a child, and neglect as a child were associated with high rates of suicide attempts (17.4% to 23.9%)

People with a diagnosis of PTSD are also at greater risk to attempt suicide. Among people who have had a diagnosis of PTSD at some point in their lifetime, approximately 27% have also attempted suicide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2009 11:39AM by The Anticult.

dear god, there are all sorts of links out there about Byron Katie and suicide, it seems to be a favorite topic, with the need for a direct personal response. Can it be that suicidal levels of desperate suffering are being targeted?

Its addressed in comments in the blog, to "submerge yourself deeply into the world of suffering". Unlike what she says, questioning and opening up suffering and trauma, does NOT get rid of it. It makes it far worse, if not handled properly by a trained professional, and can wreck lives and trigger suicides..

Ever go to an unlicensed dentist or plastic surgeon? How would that work out?

So Byron Katie is saying The Work is to be applied to suicide.

And it ends with a direct commanding salespitch to attend The School, with embedded suggestions, future-pacing, and the whole banana. Isn't it almost unbelievable, that the apologists for Byron Katie often say she does not push or sell the work? This blog comment, is the exact same salespitch used on the BKI website to sell the "School of you"...
Byron Katie is personally making direct powerful suggestions and a direct commanding salespitch invitation to attend her LGAT seminar, to a vulnerable person coping with suicide.

How does that connect with THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK, RELEASE OF LIABILITY? [forum.culteducation.com]


______________________________
QUOTE excerpt, for educational research and analysis
[www.byronkatie.com]
Dying on Time

B:
Does 'The Work' work differently with a suicide? I'm not sure how to do it with this. Any help out there?

Posted by B | March 29, 2007 7:28 PM


Byron Katie:
No, honey, it doesn’t work differently. Suffering comes only from believing your stressful thoughts about people, things, and situations in the world as you understand it to be, under all circumstances. I invite you, as I invite everyone, to identify and list the stressful concepts that you are believing (a concept is nothing more than a single thought that you have attached meaning to) and slowly walk each one through the meditation of The Work, the four questions and turnaround, find at least three examples for each turnaround, and wake yourself up to what is as true or truer than what you were believing in the first place. The end of suffering is your responsibility and yours alone. Do you love it yet? Welcome to The Work, angel. I invite you to the School for The Work, the School of wonderful you. The School is the opportunity to submerge yourself deeply into the world of suffering; once questioned, it can never be returned to again. I wish you The Work, the freedom to be there for others who are suffering, as you end your own.

Loving what is, and that would be you,

kt

Posted by Byron Katie | March 30, 2007 11:33 PM

___________________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2009 01:21PM by The Anticult.

I want to emphatically second what Corboy said in response to Susan's message, and add a couple of points of my own.

Today I read about the singer Rihanna, who is reportedly still in love with the singer Chris Brown, the boyfriend who punched up her face. Her family is horrified, his family blames her, and, according to the NYT, many teen-age girls blame her as well. "She must have done something to make him beat her like that," is a common refrain.

Rihanna's friends are distressed that she spends more time worrying about what will happen to Brown than thinking about what will happen to her. I will not be surprised if this incident damages her career more than his, especially if he goes to jail. Going to jail might be the biggest career break he ever gets.

I was genuinely shocked that so many Americans still blame the victim of domestic violence for the violence, but they do. (corboy is also correct that we need to revive feminism STAT). I thought everyone was immensely clear that: There's is NOTHING you can do EVER that justifies a violent response from your intimate partner. But everyone is not clear about that.

One of the psychologists that US magazine spoke to commented that the following steps will help Rihanna heal:

Don't blame her for the violence
Raise her expectations of relationships
Take legal action "When there's serious violence, the abuser must be held accountable"

When I was first looking for counseling to deal with my cult experience, I was told that someone who specialized in battered spouses might help. Susan's post helped me see why.

Anyone who has been in a cult has been seriously abused. I hope those of us who can, do take legal action. Those of us who can't, because statutes have run or because the law doesn't cover what happened to us, still can act effectively to regain our mental health. Personal accountability is part of mental health; self-blame is not.

A plan for healing from a cultic experience that involves working on the cultish tendicies in oneself sounds a lot like a battered woman planning to work on her violence-inducing tendencies (if I just have his dinner on the table the moment he walks in the door, he won't hit me) or like a rape victim who plans to wear longer skirts and turtlenecks and stay in safe neighborhoods. (I know a woman who was raped beside a library in Radcliffe Quad at Harvard. While wearing a ratty sweatsuit.) So I can't say I recommend the self-focussed anti-rape plan.

These blame-the-victim plans do further violence to the already injured and do not address the real problem, which is the depraved behavior of OTHER PEOPLE. Cultic groups and Lgats are run by vicious predators. You cannot always protect yourself from predators, because as a human being, you have vulnerabilities, and predators prey on those vulnerabilities. One form of predatory behavior is: if I (a guru or lgat vendor) wait until you are sad your boyfriend dumped you, or lonely because your best friend died, or scared because your boss fired you, and then tell you I have a 4 point plan to reduce your stress when I am actually planning to make you feel more in control of your life so that you will trust me and then give me your credit cards.

You are almost certainly a competent, thoughtful person, deserving of the best life has to offer, and you were probably feeling just fine until the bad thing happened. Now you're waaaay down in the dumps, and that's what I was waiting for. That's why you didn't notice me while things were going well; that's why Scientology finds your "ruin" and that's why Katie only does the work on stressful thoughts. Ruin and stress are the way in so I can wreck your mind.

There is no plan for this that involves your being someone who never gets heart-broken, grief-stricken, or scared, because, sadly, you are only human and if one of these things hasn't happened to you yet, IT WILL.
End of example.

I asked a question in a post while ago, and I'm asking again. People who have been mugged by a guy on the street call the cops, and people who have been mugged by a guru tell you that there are no victims? Why is it that?

Someone needs to tell those street level muggers that they're seriously in the wrong life of crime. They're working way too hard for way too little remuneration and way too much jailtime. Byron Katie has people handing her their lap tops and they're still breaking car windows, risking cuts and bleeding? They need to wise the hell up and go where the real cash and prizes are.

corboy-- OMG the Human League! Is that the song you meant? It's Eighties Revival Night on the Rick Ross forum!

With all the grimness and horror on this thread, we can all use a lift. Here's the lyrics. I hope it's not a copyright violation to post them.


Don't You Want Me --The Human League

You were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar
When I met you
I picked you out, I shook you up, and turned you around
Turned you into someone new
Now five years later on you've got the world at your feet
Success has been so easy for you
But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
And I can put you back down too

Don't, don't you want me?
You know I can't believe it when I hear that you won't see me
Don't, don't you want me?
You know I don't believe you when you say that you don't need me
It's much too late to find
You think you've changed your mind
You'd better change it back or we will both be sorry

Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don''t you want me - oh

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar
That much is true
But even then I knew I'd find a much better place
Either with or without you
The five years we have had have been such good times
I still love you
But now I think its time I lived my life on my own
I guess its just what I must do

Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh

Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh

Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh

Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh

Don''t you want me baby? don't you want me - oh
Don't you want me baby? don't you want me - oh

here's the crux of the entire Byron Katie issue.

The Work Questions, as presented, is not what its about. They are akin to a stage magician, who directs the audience attention to one area, while the trick happens in the other area. The Work, is primarily about directing and occupying people's conscious attention.
Its also serves as a checkmate, where any question or concern is directed back onto the subject.

But the most important aspect of the Byron Katie system, is obviously not The Work. The Work is at most 10% of what she is doing, that is why she "gives away" the questions, as its meant as the lure on the end of a hook. Every fisherman freely gives fish the bait on the end of the hook.
What's the rest?

It all comes down to influence.
Persuasion.
What is that? Influence and persuasion, is the art of getting other people to do what you want them to do, and have them think its their own idea.

That has been studied for thousands of years, and in the last decades its risen to the level of a science.
That is her primary skill-set. Persuasion engineering, done in a subtle way that is almost invisible to most people.

How do they do it? All the ways described here, she uses all the techniques of social influence described by Cialdini [www.culteducation.com] she uses many techniques of belief reform using Stories which are the foundation of belief. (the bibles of the world are all made up of Stories), she uses language reform, thought-reform methods, Ericksonian storytelling hypnotherapy and NLP methods, imagery and pictures, Eye-Gazing, information collecting, and literally dozens of other techniques, including sleep deprivation, food deprivation, kicking people out, group Shaming, various therapy techniques, and every LGAT sales technique and one-sided contract, in the book. The advertising page for the School for the Work has several dozen techniques right on that page.

So about 90% of what Byron Katie does is about invisible Influence, Persuasion Engineering. Most of it is invisible to most of her customers, some of it is brutally in your face, for effect.

In the RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com] they use the word Voluntary - Voluntarily even twice in the same sentence.
The first real sentence in the contract is...

QUOTE: "My participation is voluntary".

Why do they open with that?

QUOTE: [forum.culteducation.com] "I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death".

What a spine-chilling sentence that is. Why did they open with Voluntary, and then use it twice in regards to injury and death?

Obviously, they have run into some serious trouble previously.
Perhaps some people and their familes started coming after them, claiming their family member had been coerced and tricked into various contracts, duped into handing over family heirlooms, and engaging in behaviors they would never have done previously, and regret later. (this is also very common in every LGAT, where they push people into overexcited Manic states, and they do crazy things, like sign over huge assets to the LGAT, and then can't get out of the contract after the mania wears off).

Notice right after the information about the seminars started coming out, some of the connected BK supporters at Guruphiliac, all chimed in chanting..."its all voluntary, its all voluntary".
That is what mother told them to say.

Why? other than the obvious self-interest...
it clearly illustrates, that they know exactly what they are doing, and exactly what it does to people, including the harm.
They are engineering what appears to be "voluntary" consent into people, using all of these dozens of complex persuasion and influence techniques. They are using the most powerful influence and persuasion techniques ever known to man, many of them unconscious, on an audience who knows almost nothing about that subject. This is why it is so powerful on the target audience and demographic.
Later on, people come out of that exhausted altered psychological state they were in during the seminar period, and they REGRET what they did, and they don't know even know why they did it.

They also obviously know the serious harm being done to people. If you want to know what the harm is read the RELEASE [forum.culteducation.com]

Also, there is a core current of recklessness and sociopathy running through this system, as has been mentioned many times before. One can see who that comes from. Many LGAT's use these same techniques, but not many take them all the way, as there are far too many risks to the seminar company owners.

but to the untrained eye, its Invisible Influence.
Even to the trained eye, its not always easy to see everything right away.
And this is why they need to create that confusion, that smokescreen and misdirection, otherwise it is not nearly as effective.
Invisible Influence, when not invisible, is not nearly as powerful.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2009 05:51PM by The Anticult.

Dear Christa:

YES!

That is exactly the song--except I did not know it was by Human League. Thank you!

There is a current house or techno remix of this song in which only the man's resentful lyrics are given. The woman's voice is omitted.

This, in a nutshell is a symptom of the backlash. We think that just because a few women have made it big, that there has been progress.

BK and Oprah are patriarchy in skirts,

Xanax in media form.

Ha. We could do a re-write of that song..

'You were working on the fringes of the New Age Scene when I first met you...'

The Anticult wrote:

Quote

Analysis has been engineered out of the Work system.

I have to report that even in decent systems like many forms of Buddhism, certain kinds of analysis are engineered out.

Here are the terms of use on E-sangha, a pan Buddhist discussion site. They have set splendidly high standards.

It took me some time to see there was an area where a necessary kind of analysis was omitted.

This is not the fault of E-sangha. It is a zone of silence that exists in many of the Asian spiritual practice traditions.

And..unfortunately it is a zone of silence that can be all too readily exploited by American LGAT entrepreneurs:

Quote

From E-sangha's terms of service

Right Intention

4) Treat all members with respect. Members in this international forum have different backgrounds and opinions. Dharma is general, but unique to each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, accept the differences and be willing to learn.

5) Avoid blaming others. Seeing someone else’s fault is easier than seeing one’s own fault. Try to find your own faults and purify your mind. Always check your own karma and its fruit.

This struck me as unsatisfactory.

Language is supposed to support us not thwart us.

I reached for a dictionary and looked the definitions of 'blame' in English.

I discovered that in the dictionary there are TWO usages for 'blame' , and that most Buddhist defenitions of right speech acknowledge just one of the meanings of blame, and ignore the second meaning. ''blame-in-the-sense-of--assigning-agency-or-responsiblity-to-a-persons-role-or-actions.'

Now, by contrast, here is a conventional English language dictionary definition of
'blame'--it has two usages, where the E-sangha definition acknowledges only one usage for 'blame'.

Quote

1) to blame something on someone--that is to attribute intrinsic fault to that person, that the person is inherantly bad or unworthy.

2) Blaming a person for contributing to a pattern of harm--that is blame in the sense of assigning agency or responsiblity to a persons role or actions.

Definition #1 Considering someone intrinsically flawed and faulty, is by Buddhist guidelines harmful speech.

I thought, this is well and good.

But if a leader abuses power, that leader is generating harmful cause and effect--'karma and its fruit.'

To examine this would fit usage #2 in the conventional dicitionary definition--'assigning agency to a persons role and actions.'

Well, leadership is a role. It means a person is going to make especially large contribution to chains of cause and effect--karma--that affect the life of the leader's group.

But according to E-sanghas terms of service--which are not that different from many Buddhist practice communities, 'Seeing someone else’s fault is easier than seeing one’s own fault. Try to find your own faults and purify your mind. Always check your own karma and its fruit.'

All too often this means underlings are required to turn thier concerns about power and leadership abuse around--turnaround--upon themselves.

The role of the leader (who is venerated in the Himalayan/Mongolian/Kalmuck Buddhist traditions) goes much less examined than that of the underling!

So students are constantly doing turnarounds on themselves.

No wonder Erhard and others identified this one find strand of Buddhism and pounced on it.

Just focusing on half the conventional dictionary of blame (seeing it only as assinging inherant fault to a person, rather than the second usage of blame which is identifying what amount of agency and responsiblity that person has)--

It engineers analysis right out of the situation.

There is often an embargo on 'negative speech'

Well, how can one discuss negative and harmful situations such as abuses of leadership, trust and power without using negative speech?

And, the more serious the alleged abuses of leadership prerogative and power, the more vigorous and painful the descriptions of the departure from Dharma would be.

So the worse the situation, the more a suffering person would find him or herself muzzled.

As long as people treat each other with respect, this will be OK. But what about a situation where people are NOT being treated with respect?

The verbal tools for describing how someone in power is generating harmful cause and effect are absent from the problem solving toolbox available to sincere Buddhist practitioners who use only one definition of blame (to assign intrinsic fault) and therefore consider they are forbidden to question or discuss the situation.

But...there seems to be plenty of linguistic terms available for underlings to examine their own contributions to harmful chains of cause and effect.

But...what if a leader is not practicing the same level of humble self scrutinty as the underlings are required to do?

What if the leader is not doing turn arounds on him or herself while demanding that underlings do a turn around upon themselves whenever they fear that their leader is failing to do turnarounds?

Analysis is engineered right out of the system.

Especially any sort of analysis directed toward a leader who is blameworthy in the sense of generating hurtful cause and effect,precisely because as leader, he or she has access to a far greater sphere of influence--and is thus at a higher level of accountability.

Its very sweet.

In Liberation Theology they have something called 'hermeneutic of suspicion'--

What you do is, if a situation is dysfunctional ask 'Whose interests are served?'

Whose interests are served by a definition of blame that has plenty of terminology for students but a zone of silence for the power elite?

Hermeneutic of suspicion enables us to ask, 'In what way is analysis engineered out of the system?'

'Where are zones of silence and whom do these zones of silence protect from scrutiny?'

Liberation Theology came about among Roman Catholics concerned about unjust social structures.

It is time we create an equivalent Liberation Dharma.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2009 10:47PM by corboy.