Article: "The Hypnotic Trance of Cults and Cultists"
Posted by:
figlady
()
Date: October 07, 2014 11:46AM
I enjoyed this article and would be interested to hear people's responses to it.
[www.integralworld.net]
Mostly about Andrew Cohen but talking about the psychology of cults in general.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2014 11:48AM by figlady.
[www.integralworld.net]
Mostly about Andrew Cohen but talking about the psychology of cults in general.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2014 11:48AM by figlady.
Re: Article: "The Hypnotic Trance of Cults and Cultists"
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 07, 2014 09:02PM
THe one area where I would disagree with the author of this otherwise
excellent article is his claim that cult followers trance themselves
into submission.
Cult leaders are agents and do things TO followers. There is a betrayal
of trust by the leader.
In the Zimbardo Prison Simulation experiement, psychologically healthy
volunteers were assigned at random to enact the role of prison guards
or prisoners.
They were all told they were free to leave at any time. No other methods
were used except a simulated prison and unforms for guards and prisoners.
Zimbardo had to end the experiment early. All subjects forgot they
were free to leave. Prisoners became more and more submissive. Guards
became more nasty and controlling.
And Zimbardo didnt realize things were out of control. It was
a surprise visit by one of his graduate students, Chris Maslach
(later a professor of psychology in her own right at Cal Berkeley) who
chose to visit the set up and was so horrified from her outsiders
perspective that she raised hell and persuaded Zimbardo to end the
experiment.
A key ingredient in the Zimbardo Prison experiment was social isolation.
People are sometimes encouraged to break with thier families and see the outside world as demonic. So..the outside world seems a scary place.
According to Amy Wallace (Sorcerer's Apprentice)she and others in Carlos
Castaneda's cult were told to break with thier families and told to
say horrible cruel things to their families.
Adi Da had a commune in the countryside and later, moved his group members
to an island in the pacific.
Andrew Cohen moved his community to a compound in the countryside. People
who tried to leave often had to do so at night, because if they showed
signs of wanting to leave they would be **kept from doing so**
Muktananda (Adi Da's prior teachers) had ashrams and firearms were kept at
one of the ashrams in Santa Monica. There are rumors that when Muk fancied
a particular woman (or girl) shed be assigned to a room conveniently close
to Muk's own bedroom.
Friends, Zimbardo's experiment speaks so directly to the vulnerability
of human nature that many of us dont want to remember it.
We are influenceable and malleable. We can forget we are free to leave.
That means cultists cannot be given the onus of responsibility when
a group, even one with a charismatic leader, goes wrong.
Once in a group, regression takes place to the inner child in all of us.
Two, a guru may use very coercive methods.
YOu may become married within a group. Once you're married what if you
want to leave and your spouse does not?
In event of a divorce, a cult may have more money for lawyers than the
dissident spouse. If children are involved, there is real risk of the
believing spouse getting custody.
In event of a divorce, liquid assets may go to the believing spouse who
then is pressured to give them to the group.
A) Many of these leaders fabricate backstories and legitimation
narratives. So the cultists may be looking for a guru, but they
get lied to.
A guru may hide that he or she studied rhetoric, took courses
to sharpen critical thinking. But once they become gurus, they tell
followers to abandon their own critical thinking -- while, secretly
the guru not only retains sharp thinking, but hires experts in
critical thinking such as accountants, attorneys and PR advisors.
If a guru were honest, he would say he was ambitious.
Too often, gurus (and their inner circle members ) lie about the
leader's own background and the actual commitment required once
one is a member of the group. Cohen never said he had previously
been inspired by Adi Da before going to India. Cohen never said
he was ambitious to be a guru before going to India. Cohen's backstory
made it seem he was magically zapped by Poonja.
This in turn attributed magical power to Poonja's own enlightenment.
Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen, wrote the first expose of Cohen.
In her book, The Mother of God, Tarlo gave detailed descriptions of Poonja's
own behavior -- including how Pooja told her she was enlightened, that
Poonja's own sister was told she was enlightened, yet she still
did drudge work in the house.
Most damningly, Poonja claimed he was in the lineage of Ramana Maharshi.
Tarlo later learned that Maharshi had no formal lineage and had left
no disciples. So Poonja's own backstory was fabricated, calling Poonja's
own 'enlightenment' into question.
B) Gurus make it seem they have special powers. But they may
conceal how they use trance methods, set the schedule up
so they arrive later than scheduled, keeping the audience
awake and lightely sleep deprived.
On this message board we have a long thread describing how some
groups set the room up in such a way as to guarantee disorientation.
Many attempts were made to destroy this discussion by troll activity
indicating how very important this topic was.
A guru who uses these methods (powerful ones) and does not tell followers
he does this is LYING to them.
C) A guru may keep followers on an inadequate diet and overwork them.
The author of this article lived for years in the Adi Dam community,
and paid a heavy price for doing so.
D) You are told to give up your phone or computer as part of a
retreat that you think to be harmless.
Corboy once attended a presentation. It began late. Only after 11 PM
did they begin to reveal their actual beliefs. (Appalling)
Corboy left and went to the taxi stand. To Corboy's amazement, three
people from the group showed up, and tried to get Corboy to go back
inside. Only the arrival of a taxi enabled Corboy to get away
from the entire sorry scene.
And this was at a hotel in a city. What would this group have
done at one of its retreats, eh?
He endured very heavy attack when he wrote a series of articles on
his own blog, Broken Yogi Samyama.
What is utterly fascinating to me is it seems Andrew Cohen had encountered
Adi Dam (Da Free John) and the latter's community, **before** Cohen
went to India and was enlightened, seemingly out of the blue, by Poonjaji.
Andrew Cohen made it seem he was enlightened instantly by Poonjaji.
One hears a plethora of hagiographic guru stories of how such and such
a guru started as an ordinary, perhaps eccentric person, maybe had some
religious interests (or in some cases none at all) and then so their
story goes, they were 'zapped' by being kissed by a dervish, or slapped,
or touched, or had a vision.
And bang, had the social skills to take on the role of teaching.
No.
In his book, Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism
Agehananda Bharati, who was both a Shankara monk and also a western trained
sanskrit scholar and an anthropologist, who himself had had mystical
experiences, but never became a guru, stated that having non dual realization
is a marvellous pleasurable experience. But...it cannot teach you anything
else. As he put it, non dual experiences are like music. They cannot
teach anything else but themselves. To become a kinder person, you have to
get moral training. The "zero experience/merger experience" cannot
by itself turn a stinker into a nice person.
And these experiences do not endow a person with social skills, marketing
skills or skill in public speaking -- all needed for the ***public** role
of being a commercial guru. One has to learn these skills elsewhere.
Len Oakes in his study of charisma, found that of all the 20 charismatic
group leaders and gurus whom he interviewed, all of them had been
'avid students of social manipulation' *before* they became prophets and gurus.
All of the 20 interviewees had been convinced of their specialness, their
awakening **before** they went public. All of them, to get the audiences
and approval they felt entitled to receive, became students of social
manipulation and finesse.
Later they made it seem that their social acuity and speaking skills
were results of their enlightenment.
THey concealed their pre-existing ambition for themselves (ego driven!)
which had led them to become interested in public careers.
They are dry tinder, waiting for the right conditions to flame bright
enough to attract recruits.
Who then are at risk of getting burned in the gurus fire of ambition
which the guru (and disciples) both deny to be ambition.
But the kinds of word games and arrogant confidance Cohen manifested weeks
after assuming the guru role cannot come out of the blue, just by
being (allegedly) enlightned by someone.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2014 09:28PM by corboy.
excellent article is his claim that cult followers trance themselves
into submission.
Cult leaders are agents and do things TO followers. There is a betrayal
of trust by the leader.
In the Zimbardo Prison Simulation experiement, psychologically healthy
volunteers were assigned at random to enact the role of prison guards
or prisoners.
They were all told they were free to leave at any time. No other methods
were used except a simulated prison and unforms for guards and prisoners.
Zimbardo had to end the experiment early. All subjects forgot they
were free to leave. Prisoners became more and more submissive. Guards
became more nasty and controlling.
And Zimbardo didnt realize things were out of control. It was
a surprise visit by one of his graduate students, Chris Maslach
(later a professor of psychology in her own right at Cal Berkeley) who
chose to visit the set up and was so horrified from her outsiders
perspective that she raised hell and persuaded Zimbardo to end the
experiment.
A key ingredient in the Zimbardo Prison experiment was social isolation.
People are sometimes encouraged to break with thier families and see the outside world as demonic. So..the outside world seems a scary place.
According to Amy Wallace (Sorcerer's Apprentice)she and others in Carlos
Castaneda's cult were told to break with thier families and told to
say horrible cruel things to their families.
Adi Da had a commune in the countryside and later, moved his group members
to an island in the pacific.
Andrew Cohen moved his community to a compound in the countryside. People
who tried to leave often had to do so at night, because if they showed
signs of wanting to leave they would be **kept from doing so**
Muktananda (Adi Da's prior teachers) had ashrams and firearms were kept at
one of the ashrams in Santa Monica. There are rumors that when Muk fancied
a particular woman (or girl) shed be assigned to a room conveniently close
to Muk's own bedroom.
Friends, Zimbardo's experiment speaks so directly to the vulnerability
of human nature that many of us dont want to remember it.
We are influenceable and malleable. We can forget we are free to leave.
That means cultists cannot be given the onus of responsibility when
a group, even one with a charismatic leader, goes wrong.
Once in a group, regression takes place to the inner child in all of us.
Two, a guru may use very coercive methods.
YOu may become married within a group. Once you're married what if you
want to leave and your spouse does not?
In event of a divorce, a cult may have more money for lawyers than the
dissident spouse. If children are involved, there is real risk of the
believing spouse getting custody.
In event of a divorce, liquid assets may go to the believing spouse who
then is pressured to give them to the group.
A) Many of these leaders fabricate backstories and legitimation
narratives. So the cultists may be looking for a guru, but they
get lied to.
A guru may hide that he or she studied rhetoric, took courses
to sharpen critical thinking. But once they become gurus, they tell
followers to abandon their own critical thinking -- while, secretly
the guru not only retains sharp thinking, but hires experts in
critical thinking such as accountants, attorneys and PR advisors.
If a guru were honest, he would say he was ambitious.
Too often, gurus (and their inner circle members ) lie about the
leader's own background and the actual commitment required once
one is a member of the group. Cohen never said he had previously
been inspired by Adi Da before going to India. Cohen never said
he was ambitious to be a guru before going to India. Cohen's backstory
made it seem he was magically zapped by Poonja.
This in turn attributed magical power to Poonja's own enlightenment.
Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen, wrote the first expose of Cohen.
In her book, The Mother of God, Tarlo gave detailed descriptions of Poonja's
own behavior -- including how Pooja told her she was enlightened, that
Poonja's own sister was told she was enlightened, yet she still
did drudge work in the house.
Most damningly, Poonja claimed he was in the lineage of Ramana Maharshi.
Tarlo later learned that Maharshi had no formal lineage and had left
no disciples. So Poonja's own backstory was fabricated, calling Poonja's
own 'enlightenment' into question.
B) Gurus make it seem they have special powers. But they may
conceal how they use trance methods, set the schedule up
so they arrive later than scheduled, keeping the audience
awake and lightely sleep deprived.
On this message board we have a long thread describing how some
groups set the room up in such a way as to guarantee disorientation.
Many attempts were made to destroy this discussion by troll activity
indicating how very important this topic was.
A guru who uses these methods (powerful ones) and does not tell followers
he does this is LYING to them.
C) A guru may keep followers on an inadequate diet and overwork them.
The author of this article lived for years in the Adi Dam community,
and paid a heavy price for doing so.
D) You are told to give up your phone or computer as part of a
retreat that you think to be harmless.
Corboy once attended a presentation. It began late. Only after 11 PM
did they begin to reveal their actual beliefs. (Appalling)
Corboy left and went to the taxi stand. To Corboy's amazement, three
people from the group showed up, and tried to get Corboy to go back
inside. Only the arrival of a taxi enabled Corboy to get away
from the entire sorry scene.
And this was at a hotel in a city. What would this group have
done at one of its retreats, eh?
He endured very heavy attack when he wrote a series of articles on
his own blog, Broken Yogi Samyama.
What is utterly fascinating to me is it seems Andrew Cohen had encountered
Adi Dam (Da Free John) and the latter's community, **before** Cohen
went to India and was enlightened, seemingly out of the blue, by Poonjaji.
Andrew Cohen made it seem he was enlightened instantly by Poonjaji.
One hears a plethora of hagiographic guru stories of how such and such
a guru started as an ordinary, perhaps eccentric person, maybe had some
religious interests (or in some cases none at all) and then so their
story goes, they were 'zapped' by being kissed by a dervish, or slapped,
or touched, or had a vision.
And bang, had the social skills to take on the role of teaching.
No.
In his book, Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism
Agehananda Bharati, who was both a Shankara monk and also a western trained
sanskrit scholar and an anthropologist, who himself had had mystical
experiences, but never became a guru, stated that having non dual realization
is a marvellous pleasurable experience. But...it cannot teach you anything
else. As he put it, non dual experiences are like music. They cannot
teach anything else but themselves. To become a kinder person, you have to
get moral training. The "zero experience/merger experience" cannot
by itself turn a stinker into a nice person.
And these experiences do not endow a person with social skills, marketing
skills or skill in public speaking -- all needed for the ***public** role
of being a commercial guru. One has to learn these skills elsewhere.
Len Oakes in his study of charisma, found that of all the 20 charismatic
group leaders and gurus whom he interviewed, all of them had been
'avid students of social manipulation' *before* they became prophets and gurus.
All of the 20 interviewees had been convinced of their specialness, their
awakening **before** they went public. All of them, to get the audiences
and approval they felt entitled to receive, became students of social
manipulation and finesse.
Later they made it seem that their social acuity and speaking skills
were results of their enlightenment.
THey concealed their pre-existing ambition for themselves (ego driven!)
which had led them to become interested in public careers.
They are dry tinder, waiting for the right conditions to flame bright
enough to attract recruits.
Who then are at risk of getting burned in the gurus fire of ambition
which the guru (and disciples) both deny to be ambition.
But the kinds of word games and arrogant confidance Cohen manifested weeks
after assuming the guru role cannot come out of the blue, just by
being (allegedly) enlightned by someone.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2014 09:28PM by corboy.
From the old Lightmind discussion board on Adi Da
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 07, 2014 09:57PM
Another observer of Adi Da (Da Free John) noted particular features
of Da.
Which could apply to gurus like him.
"Elias" wrote:
The disparagement of "experiences" was a big part of Daism, of course -- except for Frank's (Adi Da) experiences, which were glorified and even considered to be "the last word" on experience. "I've seen and done it all," he said..."so you don't have to." LOL
"The real motive behind his approach, of course, was to close off that area of life to devotees. Again, it was politics...the politics of an autocratic personality who wants to suck all the air out of the room.
"It's not just Adi Da who does this. IMHO the whole "American" movement is suspect for misunderstanding the role of the teacher-guru as a path to power and wealth. They have learned to accomplish their ambitions by building their claims to authority not on uncovering the harmonies of spiritual life, but on abstraction and dry intellectualism.
Like you said, "my eyes glaze over" at the sheer pretentiousness of this juiceless pseudo-realization.
Elias (Corboy)
of Da.
Which could apply to gurus like him.
"Elias" wrote:
The disparagement of "experiences" was a big part of Daism, of course -- except for Frank's (Adi Da) experiences, which were glorified and even considered to be "the last word" on experience. "I've seen and done it all," he said..."so you don't have to." LOL
"The real motive behind his approach, of course, was to close off that area of life to devotees. Again, it was politics...the politics of an autocratic personality who wants to suck all the air out of the room.
"It's not just Adi Da who does this. IMHO the whole "American" movement is suspect for misunderstanding the role of the teacher-guru as a path to power and wealth. They have learned to accomplish their ambitions by building their claims to authority not on uncovering the harmonies of spiritual life, but on abstraction and dry intellectualism.
Like you said, "my eyes glaze over" at the sheer pretentiousness of this juiceless pseudo-realization.
Elias (Corboy)
Leaving Andrew Cohen -- hard to do first hand stories
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 07, 2014 10:10PM
Why Leaving Andrew Cohen's Group Can Be So Hard - WHAT ...Dec 2, 2005 ... Why Leaving Andrew Cohen's Group Can Be So Hard ... (see my previous article
Karma Will (Literally) Cost You And Leaving Isn't Easy), there ...
whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/.../why-leaving-andrew-cohens-group-can- be.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
WHAT enlightenment??!: WIE EDITOR CRAIG HAMILTON LEAVES ...Dec 14, 2005 ... An uncensored look at self-styled guru Andrew Cohen. ... Only time will tell
whether Craig Hamilton will join the brave ranks of so many other former ... We
know that leaving Cohen is difficult and takes a great deal of courage.
whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/.../wie-editor-craig-hamilton-leaves.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
(Quote)Leaving Isn't Easy
Given the pervasiveness of physical and emotional abuse and financial exploitation in Andrew Cohen's community, it would be reasonable to ask (as some on this blog have) why students don't just leave. In fact, most of Andrew's students do leave. He has far more students who have left him over the years than who have remained with him. Few of his early students remain. I have learned from an inside source that there are currently less than 400 students and "practicing members" combined, worldwide. This is far from the "revolution" that Andrew has always claimed he is spearheading.
For many students, however, leaving Andrew is traumatic. This is due to a combination of factors. Some of these factors are psychological and entrained by Andrew. Students are told repeatedly that leaving Andrew and his community is the greatest betrayal. They are taught that it is tantamount to admitting that they do not "want to be free" and to giving up any chance of spiritual enlightenment. Andrew's close students have witnessed numerous times the way Andrew denigrates and demonizes those who leave him. Andrew frequently complains about a conspiracy of former students who only want to undermine him. Students are repeatedly told that if they leave they should have no contact with other students who left the community. This means that it is likely they will be alone and without emotional support if they leave Andrew and IEF. Close students have generally devoted years of their lives to Andrew, have derived their whole sense of meaning from the community, and have lost touch with other friends, interests and support systems. The prospect of facing a huge void in their lives makes the idea of leaving Andrew very intimidating. But sometimes leaving Andrew is difficult for another reason-Andrew and his community sometimes make it almost impossible to do.
It is generally not possible to openly talk about leaving the IEF community if one has been a close student. If one does leave, one is often hounded by the community. There have been many instances of this. Marvin, a student who left on the pretext of visiting family, was called repeatedly by community members, and asked to come back. He finally agreed to return briefly to discuss the matter. When challenged for leaving without telling anyone, he made the memorable comment, "Leaving is not a formal student topic." Many other students were hounded after they left. Jeff, the student who left after Andrew had Michelle, a physician student, pretend she was going to surgically remove his finger for failing in a writing project (See "Shame, Guilt and The Guru's Blood") was sent a series of e-mails, each with symbolic pictures of the cover of the video "The Picture of Dorian Gray," with the images becoming progressively more distorted and ugly.
Many students have run from the community during the night. A couple of examples of this follow. The female student who made the $60,000 contribution and pledged her future inheritance, whose story was told above, did so after secretly escaping Foxhollow one night. Before she left, Andrew knew she was in a delicate condition and there was a danger she might leave. She had left once before. One night after receiving serious "feed-back", Andrew's wife Alka came to her room, and asked her for her driver's license, passport, and credit cards. She said she could not find her passport, but handed over what she claimed was her only credit card and her driver's license. She had previously hidden, however, another copy of her license and another credit card. She took them, along with her passport, "borrowed" the community car, and drove to a car rental office in Lenox. There she rented a car, left a voicemail message at Foxhollow about the community car's whereabouts, and drove off into the night. She didn't know where she wanted to go, just that she wanted to get far away. Eventually, she drove the thousands of miles from Massachusetts to New Orleans. She figured no one would find her there. A few days after she arrived and got a room, she went to return the rented car. There, to her shock, she found Debbie, an IEF community member, waiting for her. Debbie had waited at the car rental's Lenox office until she overheard a phone conversation from which she learned the student would be returning her rented car in New Orleans. She flew there and waited in the New Orleans rental office until the escaped student showed up. Debbie eventually persuaded her to return.
One Dutch student, who was close to Andrew and who had been a leader in his communities in Europe, fell into disfavor. He was put in a community home in London, where Steve Brett was told to keep an eye on him and prevent him from leaving. Steve slept just outside the Dutch student's room, so that he could not leave in the night without being noticed. But one night Steve failed to do this. The Dutch student packed a bag and threw it out his bedroom window to the ground below. Then he sneaked silently out of the house. He retrieved his bag, and found a pay telephone a block or two away, from which he called a cab. A couple of weeks before this, Rob, a close community member and an old friend of the Dutch student, had warned him against leaving. Rob was highly trained in martial arts, having been a member of a special division of the Dutch military, roughly equivalent to the U.S. Navy Seals or Special Forces. Rob had told his friend that if he ever left, he would find him and break every bone in his body. After the student escaped, he chose to go as far away as he could imagine, settling in Costa Rica. A few weeks after getting there, he got an e-mail from Rob. All it said was, "I'm coming." Andrew himself had instructed Rob to send this e-mail.
(Unquote)
Karma Will (Literally) Cost You And Leaving Isn't Easy), there ...
whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/.../why-leaving-andrew-cohens-group-can- be.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
WHAT enlightenment??!: WIE EDITOR CRAIG HAMILTON LEAVES ...Dec 14, 2005 ... An uncensored look at self-styled guru Andrew Cohen. ... Only time will tell
whether Craig Hamilton will join the brave ranks of so many other former ... We
know that leaving Cohen is difficult and takes a great deal of courage.
whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/.../wie-editor-craig-hamilton-leaves.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
(Quote)Leaving Isn't Easy
Given the pervasiveness of physical and emotional abuse and financial exploitation in Andrew Cohen's community, it would be reasonable to ask (as some on this blog have) why students don't just leave. In fact, most of Andrew's students do leave. He has far more students who have left him over the years than who have remained with him. Few of his early students remain. I have learned from an inside source that there are currently less than 400 students and "practicing members" combined, worldwide. This is far from the "revolution" that Andrew has always claimed he is spearheading.
For many students, however, leaving Andrew is traumatic. This is due to a combination of factors. Some of these factors are psychological and entrained by Andrew. Students are told repeatedly that leaving Andrew and his community is the greatest betrayal. They are taught that it is tantamount to admitting that they do not "want to be free" and to giving up any chance of spiritual enlightenment. Andrew's close students have witnessed numerous times the way Andrew denigrates and demonizes those who leave him. Andrew frequently complains about a conspiracy of former students who only want to undermine him. Students are repeatedly told that if they leave they should have no contact with other students who left the community. This means that it is likely they will be alone and without emotional support if they leave Andrew and IEF. Close students have generally devoted years of their lives to Andrew, have derived their whole sense of meaning from the community, and have lost touch with other friends, interests and support systems. The prospect of facing a huge void in their lives makes the idea of leaving Andrew very intimidating. But sometimes leaving Andrew is difficult for another reason-Andrew and his community sometimes make it almost impossible to do.
It is generally not possible to openly talk about leaving the IEF community if one has been a close student. If one does leave, one is often hounded by the community. There have been many instances of this. Marvin, a student who left on the pretext of visiting family, was called repeatedly by community members, and asked to come back. He finally agreed to return briefly to discuss the matter. When challenged for leaving without telling anyone, he made the memorable comment, "Leaving is not a formal student topic." Many other students were hounded after they left. Jeff, the student who left after Andrew had Michelle, a physician student, pretend she was going to surgically remove his finger for failing in a writing project (See "Shame, Guilt and The Guru's Blood") was sent a series of e-mails, each with symbolic pictures of the cover of the video "The Picture of Dorian Gray," with the images becoming progressively more distorted and ugly.
Many students have run from the community during the night. A couple of examples of this follow. The female student who made the $60,000 contribution and pledged her future inheritance, whose story was told above, did so after secretly escaping Foxhollow one night. Before she left, Andrew knew she was in a delicate condition and there was a danger she might leave. She had left once before. One night after receiving serious "feed-back", Andrew's wife Alka came to her room, and asked her for her driver's license, passport, and credit cards. She said she could not find her passport, but handed over what she claimed was her only credit card and her driver's license. She had previously hidden, however, another copy of her license and another credit card. She took them, along with her passport, "borrowed" the community car, and drove to a car rental office in Lenox. There she rented a car, left a voicemail message at Foxhollow about the community car's whereabouts, and drove off into the night. She didn't know where she wanted to go, just that she wanted to get far away. Eventually, she drove the thousands of miles from Massachusetts to New Orleans. She figured no one would find her there. A few days after she arrived and got a room, she went to return the rented car. There, to her shock, she found Debbie, an IEF community member, waiting for her. Debbie had waited at the car rental's Lenox office until she overheard a phone conversation from which she learned the student would be returning her rented car in New Orleans. She flew there and waited in the New Orleans rental office until the escaped student showed up. Debbie eventually persuaded her to return.
One Dutch student, who was close to Andrew and who had been a leader in his communities in Europe, fell into disfavor. He was put in a community home in London, where Steve Brett was told to keep an eye on him and prevent him from leaving. Steve slept just outside the Dutch student's room, so that he could not leave in the night without being noticed. But one night Steve failed to do this. The Dutch student packed a bag and threw it out his bedroom window to the ground below. Then he sneaked silently out of the house. He retrieved his bag, and found a pay telephone a block or two away, from which he called a cab. A couple of weeks before this, Rob, a close community member and an old friend of the Dutch student, had warned him against leaving. Rob was highly trained in martial arts, having been a member of a special division of the Dutch military, roughly equivalent to the U.S. Navy Seals or Special Forces. Rob had told his friend that if he ever left, he would find him and break every bone in his body. After the student escaped, he chose to go as far away as he could imagine, settling in Costa Rica. A few weeks after getting there, he got an e-mail from Rob. All it said was, "I'm coming." Andrew himself had instructed Rob to send this e-mail.
(Unquote)
Re: Article: "The Hypnotic Trance of Cults and Cultists"
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 07, 2014 10:17PM
A sample of the comments following article above
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
(quote)Herve said...
Hal,
Much of what you say does not concern me at all. It only excites me.
But I would like to know how you can prove the following statement which you made:
"A few weeks after getting there, he got an e-mail from Rob. All it said was, "I'm coming." Andrew himself had instructed Rob to send this e-mail."
Herve
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
Herve, if this stuff "excites" you, then you should join up with Andrew Cohen's fellowship and have yourself a sadomasochistic blast.
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
Herve, we can assume that the receiver of the email told Hal, so the fact that Rob sent the email is a given. So your question is how Hal can prove that Rob was instructed to send the email by Andrew. Herve, if you knew the community, Rob, and Andrew (like many of us here do) then there isn't a shadow of a doubt that Andrew gave tacit approval to the email and that Rob would never have sent such an email without Andrew's okay.
Anonymous said...
Hi Hal,
The things you have written here are pretty explosive. I have to be forthright and say that I have spent some time in Andrews community, though not as a formal student.
This blog has raised more then a few questions. I have read both published books criticising Andrew's work and have found them insufficient to some degree in proving their point. This blog however has created much deeper contemplation, as has the petty apparent war that occured betwen this blog and the uncensored blog. I must say that if uncensored's point was to make people question the motives of this blog they achieved their goal.
I have had to contemplate every level of motive along the way. Among the list of questions that have arose are the following:
1. Andrew has really broken through to a new development in consciousness, traditionally know as "enlghtenment", but has fallen pray to the same short comings as many proposed "world teachers", assuming that because their vision of expanded consciousness remains constantly intact then their behavior must be inherently perfect (an idea that Andrew has both renounced, and seems to embrace (recurring theme)).
2. (extension of example1), that his behaviour 'is' inherently perfect in relationship to the natural imbalances of the manifest world.
3. That his vision of the absolute was hijacked by an unconscious ego that recognized freedom and wanted to own it as its self.
4. Students Karma plays as much a major role as teachers, therefore teachers are naturally prone to nasty karmic dealings as part of their role. This can then be demonized by the ego of students.
5. Andrew is doing the right thing and burnt students are demonizing him.
6. Andrews dealings are completely misunderstood (crazy wisdom, but again, he denounces it yet seems to use it as a right hand technique).
7. naturally occuring developmental inertia will hang like rocks from any attempts to make new developmental stages occur.
8. Andrew Cohen has fallen prey to everything he tries to stand against.
These are heavy questions for me, and not easily resolvable. They bother me more because I find the new dimensions of his teaching quite extraordinary and true.
A couple of life long distant students have suggested that the ultimate relationship with Andrew is to be in touch with and explore his advice, but not get too close. At this point knowing what I know I feel that this is good advice. However of course my excitement over the content of his teachings compels me to think closer.
These are very difficult issues to think about (all the time), and perhaps they dont get any easier the closer you get.
I'd be interested to hear comments on these thoughts. I know I will hear "Andrew is a psycho and stay away". I may also hear "approach him at your own risk". I rather hope for the unexpected. I am still waiting for a bomb to drop. While small arms continue to fire I have yet to hear the chain breaker. I have no interest in breaking chains though. If something here is very fundamentally in trouble it really raises more questions about what is possible and why it seems to have a hard time manifesting. This of course begs the more ultimate questions.. If Andrew see's the vision but has trouble manifesting it, what responsibilities are left on our shoulders then? Or are the dogs just barking?
One thing is for sure, these questions must be asked, and if they are met with denial then what does it mean to face everything and avoid nothing? If one is truly doing this then cant ANYTHING be explained or discussed? And if not then isnt that a blatant use of crazy wisdom?
signed:
Seriously confused but used to it and even inspired by it.
Peace be with you, even in turbulent times.
Friday, 03 June, 2005
Anonymous said
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
In quick response to this list of questions:
From Andrew's perspective, these are the (only?) absolute truths of the teacher/student relationship:
1. teacher is enlightened and is supreme arbiter
2. freedom/enlightenment of the student at ALL costs
If you DO accept these two truths, you will not fault Andrew's actions. Andrew won't accept the possiblity that there are some absolute truths in permissible behavior of citizens in our society:
1. you don't put someone under the most intense psychological pressure imaginable and force them to relinquish huge sums of money
2. you don't make it impossible for someone to freely walk away
How you view Andrew will depend on whether you accept the first set of absolutes or the second.
Saturday, 04 June, 2005
Hal Blacker said...
To answer Herve's question about the email from Rob:
My anonymous sources included the recipient of the e-mail and an individual who was present when Andrew discussed its content with Rob and told him to send it.
All of the events in the Breaking the Code of Silence pieces are based on the reports of sources who directly perceived them.
In the future, it would be better to e-mail these kinds of questions. I may not always see or respond to them on the blog.
Thank you for your interest in these articles.
(Unquote)
The final post on this comments thread said it all.
(Quote)Maureen and Fred McFarland said...
Dear WE contributors and supporters
Words can hardly express our gratitude for your service in enlightening people about Andrew Cohen.
Our son Dan returned home after leaving to join Andrew Cohen and community. God bless all.
Sincerely,
Maureen and Fred McFarland
Tom's River
New Jersey
Sunday, 05 June, 2005
(Unquote)
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
(quote)Herve said...
Hal,
Much of what you say does not concern me at all. It only excites me.
But I would like to know how you can prove the following statement which you made:
"A few weeks after getting there, he got an e-mail from Rob. All it said was, "I'm coming." Andrew himself had instructed Rob to send this e-mail."
Herve
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
Herve, if this stuff "excites" you, then you should join up with Andrew Cohen's fellowship and have yourself a sadomasochistic blast.
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
Herve, we can assume that the receiver of the email told Hal, so the fact that Rob sent the email is a given. So your question is how Hal can prove that Rob was instructed to send the email by Andrew. Herve, if you knew the community, Rob, and Andrew (like many of us here do) then there isn't a shadow of a doubt that Andrew gave tacit approval to the email and that Rob would never have sent such an email without Andrew's okay.
Anonymous said...
Hi Hal,
The things you have written here are pretty explosive. I have to be forthright and say that I have spent some time in Andrews community, though not as a formal student.
This blog has raised more then a few questions. I have read both published books criticising Andrew's work and have found them insufficient to some degree in proving their point. This blog however has created much deeper contemplation, as has the petty apparent war that occured betwen this blog and the uncensored blog. I must say that if uncensored's point was to make people question the motives of this blog they achieved their goal.
I have had to contemplate every level of motive along the way. Among the list of questions that have arose are the following:
1. Andrew has really broken through to a new development in consciousness, traditionally know as "enlghtenment", but has fallen pray to the same short comings as many proposed "world teachers", assuming that because their vision of expanded consciousness remains constantly intact then their behavior must be inherently perfect (an idea that Andrew has both renounced, and seems to embrace (recurring theme)).
2. (extension of example1), that his behaviour 'is' inherently perfect in relationship to the natural imbalances of the manifest world.
3. That his vision of the absolute was hijacked by an unconscious ego that recognized freedom and wanted to own it as its self.
4. Students Karma plays as much a major role as teachers, therefore teachers are naturally prone to nasty karmic dealings as part of their role. This can then be demonized by the ego of students.
5. Andrew is doing the right thing and burnt students are demonizing him.
6. Andrews dealings are completely misunderstood (crazy wisdom, but again, he denounces it yet seems to use it as a right hand technique).
7. naturally occuring developmental inertia will hang like rocks from any attempts to make new developmental stages occur.
8. Andrew Cohen has fallen prey to everything he tries to stand against.
These are heavy questions for me, and not easily resolvable. They bother me more because I find the new dimensions of his teaching quite extraordinary and true.
A couple of life long distant students have suggested that the ultimate relationship with Andrew is to be in touch with and explore his advice, but not get too close. At this point knowing what I know I feel that this is good advice. However of course my excitement over the content of his teachings compels me to think closer.
These are very difficult issues to think about (all the time), and perhaps they dont get any easier the closer you get.
I'd be interested to hear comments on these thoughts. I know I will hear "Andrew is a psycho and stay away". I may also hear "approach him at your own risk". I rather hope for the unexpected. I am still waiting for a bomb to drop. While small arms continue to fire I have yet to hear the chain breaker. I have no interest in breaking chains though. If something here is very fundamentally in trouble it really raises more questions about what is possible and why it seems to have a hard time manifesting. This of course begs the more ultimate questions.. If Andrew see's the vision but has trouble manifesting it, what responsibilities are left on our shoulders then? Or are the dogs just barking?
One thing is for sure, these questions must be asked, and if they are met with denial then what does it mean to face everything and avoid nothing? If one is truly doing this then cant ANYTHING be explained or discussed? And if not then isnt that a blatant use of crazy wisdom?
signed:
Seriously confused but used to it and even inspired by it.
Peace be with you, even in turbulent times.
Friday, 03 June, 2005
Anonymous said
Thursday, 02 June, 2005
Anonymous said...
In quick response to this list of questions:
From Andrew's perspective, these are the (only?) absolute truths of the teacher/student relationship:
1. teacher is enlightened and is supreme arbiter
2. freedom/enlightenment of the student at ALL costs
If you DO accept these two truths, you will not fault Andrew's actions. Andrew won't accept the possiblity that there are some absolute truths in permissible behavior of citizens in our society:
1. you don't put someone under the most intense psychological pressure imaginable and force them to relinquish huge sums of money
2. you don't make it impossible for someone to freely walk away
How you view Andrew will depend on whether you accept the first set of absolutes or the second.
Saturday, 04 June, 2005
Hal Blacker said...
To answer Herve's question about the email from Rob:
My anonymous sources included the recipient of the e-mail and an individual who was present when Andrew discussed its content with Rob and told him to send it.
All of the events in the Breaking the Code of Silence pieces are based on the reports of sources who directly perceived them.
In the future, it would be better to e-mail these kinds of questions. I may not always see or respond to them on the blog.
Thank you for your interest in these articles.
(Unquote)
The final post on this comments thread said it all.
(Quote)Maureen and Fred McFarland said...
Dear WE contributors and supporters
Words can hardly express our gratitude for your service in enlightening people about Andrew Cohen.
Our son Dan returned home after leaving to join Andrew Cohen and community. God bless all.
Sincerely,
Maureen and Fred McFarland
Tom's River
New Jersey
Sunday, 05 June, 2005
(Unquote)
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