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I believe that the whole idea of a wimpy Jesus is a lie from the pit of hell. My Lord cast out the moneychangers with a whip, not kind words and brotherly hugs. Don't confuse love with weakness. [/B]

Jesus defininitely had a strong opinion of himself. Anyone who thinks he's God incarnate would have to think so. But even how he drove out the money changers is simply being told from his point of view only.
When people came to Jerusalem to offer up sacrifices, they either had to bring their own animal or buy one locally. Who was Jesus to take over the Temple system and thow the merchants out? He wasn't any kind of messiah in my book and definitely not a "Prince of Peace" as the prophets supposedly prophesied.

When someone tells me to love my enemies and when my enemies smite me, not to smite them back but to offer my other cheek, that's my definition of a pacifist. And it's bloody hard to do, I might add. Or when people persecute me when I haven't done anything wrong, to ask God to forgive them?

What Jesus raises his sword against are the idolaters. It doesn't take much imagination to see that Bush is the example of an idolater. Our country's foreign policy is supposed to be about promoting democratic principles around the globe, not creating huge oil cartels for my cronies.

Our county has many parallels with ancient Rome... with Bush as Nero...

I certainly am not trying to convert anyone. My point may be similar to yours in a weird, backa** kind of way.

I would like to believe that Jesus would have vehemently accused the Church officials who burnt Jews or witches like he denounced the corrupt priests and Pharisees of his day. And, while watching Fox news, I feel like I'm supposed to clap while listening to the glories of the dubya all the while being tortured by his corruption.

I work in a university and I had to inform two of my int'l students that they needed to sign up for "special registration" because of their age, birth country, and sex. I felt like telling them to go pick up their yellow star.

I think Jesus wasn't really against any one group, but against the corrupt and self-serving members in any group.

I'm not really a big Christian. I'm a Catholic by birth, a bad one in practice, and have suffered at the hand of an extremely self-righteous woman who thought I was undeserving to be under her "healing". All of that has really forced me to question what I do believe.

Like MLK and Gandhi, Jesus primarily preached peace and the church has been abusing the man and subverting his message ever since. I'm sure some Christians would call me a heretic for that statement. To them, I am the incarnate of evil because I don't claim Jesus as the Son of God. I guess I feel that Jesus is the Son of God as we all are:

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of god. -Nelson Mandela

The context for turning the other cheek is when you were being hit for claiming Jesus. Jesus wasn't simply saying, be a victim whenever possible. To forgive someone who is guilty is between persons, but the governments purpose is to protect us.

The front page of the NYT yesterday (Wed) had a story about the mass grave where 3,000 innocent people were shot, one by one. The driver of the tractor said he shot the mom, then put the baby in the mom's lap and shot the baby too. How many reasons do you need to take action. There's a time for peace, and a time for war. It's the government's job to take action, and we did.

God Bless America!

Really? You're being tortured by corruption by dubya? I have to laugh, the first thing I thought of was the pardons Clinton wrote his last few days in office. What a hoot.

I realize that you dislike President Bush, and respect your right to do so. However, because he's in office, cleaning up a mess left to him at least partly by Clinton, people in Iraq will be free to dislike their leader(s) also. At least, without getting shot or tortured for it. So rejoice.

(Sorry Rick, I know I'm using up server space that should be used on cults, just couldn't pass it up)

You have misconstrued Jesus' commandments for your own ends which is exactly why I have so much distrust of the born agains.
Jesus did NOT qualify his teaching to say only forgive Christians. He said whosoever. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

Likewise, the dubya has misconstrued our democracy and turned it into a totalitarian regime for his own ends. (which does make it like a fascist cult.) The Cheney-Bush Junta lives by the "eye for an eye" philosophy.

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
[35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
[36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
[37] But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
[41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. -Matt 5

That's my last post on the topic.

Ciao tutti

Did I say Jesus said to only forgive Christians? No. I said that you are supposed to turn your cheek when getting hit BECAUSE you are serving God.

"Excuse me, I think you just hit my car, but you look pretty angry, why don't you drive around and hit the other side too." Obviously ridiculous. Jesus is saying, if someone hits your car because they hate you because you are serving Him, offer to give the car to him.

You neglect the context of the verse to your own hurt. Who was He speaking to? His disciples first (see the first verse), then the crowds. He was speaking to those who already made a commitment to Him.

And what's all this hooey about the Cheny - Bush junta eye-for-an-eye philosophy? Clinton is the guy who lined his pockets, Mr. Scandal-of-the-Week. Bush has directed the military to arrest bad guys, who've killed thousands / millions, for trial. Saddam has secret police kill his enemies along with their extended families and bury them in mass graves. Eye for an eye? Sounds to me like a paper cut for a gunshot wound.

If you were living in Iraq, not that long ago, talking smack about Saddam like you are about your president, Saddam would have your entire family killed. So rejoice, you can sit in your Starbucks sipping a latte, logging on with your laptop, and indulge yourself by writing a bunch of baloney about your government, and nobody really cares. You're safe.

Wow, Claire!

Interesting Bush quotations. I thought that as a politician he had to be p/c about the Islamic Faith because of their potentially intimidating size as a Democratic voting block. I haven't heard most of those things that you listed. I am a Bush supporter, and a professing Christian, but I feel that those words are not consistent with the absolutes that the Bible puts forth...... sounds more Unitarian that anything. I hope that he was just being loose with his words, but I'll look into this. Nobody knows what's in another's heart, and sometimes even we are fooled by what's there, lurking in our own hearts. Bush is a Methodist by upbringing, though, if I'm not mistaken, and my experience with them is that most are very liberal with the scriptures. I work with a UMC preacher's wife who teaches that Allah and Jehovah are one and the same. I disagree, but then again, that's what's so fun about being a right winger!!!!! Controversy!!!!