Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: June 06, 2006 02:37AM
A lot of people are looking at what happened in Chabad Lubavitch and are appalled at how it devolved into a cult of personality and is no longer like normative Judaism of any kind.
The movement seems to have taken a spin off the normal.
Basically, it's my contention that this happened because of several factors. One factor is that the original Chasidim that the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, attracted were from the peasant class and their descendents are also superstitious and relatively unschooled and unsophisticated. The second major reason the movement became so unusual was due to lack of competition. The rest of the rabbis in Chabad are nowhere near the intellectual level of the late Rabbi MM Schneerson and they don't really know the level of quality outside of their community.
I was privileged to live in Israel for 4 and a half years. I lived in Jerusalem for a year, Beer Sheba for 11 months, and a number of additional places. I saw many highly religious and intellectual people in Israel. There are many rebbes in Israel who were just as bright as Rabbi Schneerson was but in America most of the rabbis didn't step out into the forefront and try to become public figures the way Rabbi Schneerson did.
They also didn't run their Chasidim or followers ragged the way Rabbi Schneerson did with all kinds of programs designed to trigger off the final redemption of the world.
Most of the American rabbis live insular lives for the most part. The Jews went out of the soul saving business after the problems we had in Greece and since those days we left our knowledge and beliefs to be kept to ourselves.
But the Lubavitcher reached out to the public. In books like "Challenge" a gauntlet was thrown down to the public to reopen the case for Jews to be influential in the public eye. Chabad ran
outreach programs and even created a "Global Noahide Program" to do outreach to non-Jews and teach them their religious and civil obligations from the "Torah true" perspective. In fact, the 7 Commandments of the Sons of Noah are actually expanded into 66 commandments. But even Chabad doesn't push this too hard. Not too many people are receptive to this. In fact, it's what a lot of people dread: Jewish people trying to control non-Jews.
After the Lubavitcher passed on, since he had no successor as a son, and no one else has been picked to succeed him, the movement has made him the focus of everything. They see all of Judaism and its teachings as having been perfected and crystalized by him and in him. To them, it seems that Judaism will not further evolve and it is now a matter of looking at everything from the perspective of this now long deceased person.
Some people were so shocked by his death that they claimed he'd be immediately resurrected and some people deny that he's dead at all. As I mentioned on another posting, Rabbi Moshe Yess claims "he's hidden and will yet be revealed again". I actually know Moshe, he and I were in a class together at Yeshivat D'var Yerushalayim in Geulah in the old days back in '78.
In K'far Chabad near Tel Aviv, Chabad has a temple called "Beis Menachem" which means "House of Menachem." In Hebrew, Menachem means "the comforter" which is one of a number of possible names for the messiah, the long awaited, redeemer of the Jewish people to be accepted by all Jews and in refutation of Jesus Christ's claim to be such.
The Jewish community has been looking for a "kosher messiah" to take the place of Brother J even in the eyes of the non-Jewish world. I actually hope I live long enough to see anything like that happen if it can but I think Christianity is going to be around for awhile anyway.
According to the late Rabbi Sholom Klass, publisher of the Jewish Press, in order for a person to be elected the messiah it would take a world wide majority consensus of the leaders of the orthodox world (Gedolei HaTorah) to decided such. I think it won't happen. We've had over 2K years since Bro J went and even if we have another 2K years I don't think it'll ever happen.
The movement seems to have taken a spin off the normal.
Basically, it's my contention that this happened because of several factors. One factor is that the original Chasidim that the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, attracted were from the peasant class and their descendents are also superstitious and relatively unschooled and unsophisticated. The second major reason the movement became so unusual was due to lack of competition. The rest of the rabbis in Chabad are nowhere near the intellectual level of the late Rabbi MM Schneerson and they don't really know the level of quality outside of their community.
I was privileged to live in Israel for 4 and a half years. I lived in Jerusalem for a year, Beer Sheba for 11 months, and a number of additional places. I saw many highly religious and intellectual people in Israel. There are many rebbes in Israel who were just as bright as Rabbi Schneerson was but in America most of the rabbis didn't step out into the forefront and try to become public figures the way Rabbi Schneerson did.
They also didn't run their Chasidim or followers ragged the way Rabbi Schneerson did with all kinds of programs designed to trigger off the final redemption of the world.
Most of the American rabbis live insular lives for the most part. The Jews went out of the soul saving business after the problems we had in Greece and since those days we left our knowledge and beliefs to be kept to ourselves.
But the Lubavitcher reached out to the public. In books like "Challenge" a gauntlet was thrown down to the public to reopen the case for Jews to be influential in the public eye. Chabad ran
outreach programs and even created a "Global Noahide Program" to do outreach to non-Jews and teach them their religious and civil obligations from the "Torah true" perspective. In fact, the 7 Commandments of the Sons of Noah are actually expanded into 66 commandments. But even Chabad doesn't push this too hard. Not too many people are receptive to this. In fact, it's what a lot of people dread: Jewish people trying to control non-Jews.
After the Lubavitcher passed on, since he had no successor as a son, and no one else has been picked to succeed him, the movement has made him the focus of everything. They see all of Judaism and its teachings as having been perfected and crystalized by him and in him. To them, it seems that Judaism will not further evolve and it is now a matter of looking at everything from the perspective of this now long deceased person.
Some people were so shocked by his death that they claimed he'd be immediately resurrected and some people deny that he's dead at all. As I mentioned on another posting, Rabbi Moshe Yess claims "he's hidden and will yet be revealed again". I actually know Moshe, he and I were in a class together at Yeshivat D'var Yerushalayim in Geulah in the old days back in '78.
In K'far Chabad near Tel Aviv, Chabad has a temple called "Beis Menachem" which means "House of Menachem." In Hebrew, Menachem means "the comforter" which is one of a number of possible names for the messiah, the long awaited, redeemer of the Jewish people to be accepted by all Jews and in refutation of Jesus Christ's claim to be such.
The Jewish community has been looking for a "kosher messiah" to take the place of Brother J even in the eyes of the non-Jewish world. I actually hope I live long enough to see anything like that happen if it can but I think Christianity is going to be around for awhile anyway.
According to the late Rabbi Sholom Klass, publisher of the Jewish Press, in order for a person to be elected the messiah it would take a world wide majority consensus of the leaders of the orthodox world (Gedolei HaTorah) to decided such. I think it won't happen. We've had over 2K years since Bro J went and even if we have another 2K years I don't think it'll ever happen.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
egel ha zahav
()
Date: June 06, 2006 09:37AM
richardgreen, is it possible that you are a member of the Jews for Jesus (another cult) using this forum to denigrate your enemy Chabad? Just wondering. You also work for a Christian church famous for its anti-Israel politics.
You certainly appear to have a "license to Jew" and have made some valid points against Chabad and Lubavichers, but you give a wrong impression to those who do not have entry into the ultra orthodox world of Judaism.
There are also those who quietly do not believe that the Rebbe is/was moshiach and there are a sincere group of young people who consider themselves "modern Lubavich". The shliach community (Jewish couples who were sent out to open synagogues and teach Torah true Judaism) is diverse in their teachings about moshiach. I know of one Chabad Rabbi who forbade his own sister-in-law from teaching at his shul ever again for preaching the idea that the Rebbe was moshiach to his congregation! The concept of King Moshiach is a bone of contention for many Jews and most Chabad houses no longer push the issue and stick to teaching about Torah and mitzvot. The frantic energy surrounding the coming redemption has died down. Yes, many of the shliach still are true believers, but they don't harp on it anymore.
Most Chabad synagogues outside of Crown Heights are simply nice places to practice your Hebrew, hear the Torah portion, have a nice kiddish and smooze with friends or celibrate a simchah (bar mitzvah, wedding, birth) or know how to mourn the death of a loved one in a Jewish way. Anyone who wants to learn the basic tenents of Judaism would not lose by going to Chabad.org or AskMoses.com or any Chabbad Rabbi. They are more knowledgable than you imply. The services in the synagogue have not changed from the times of the Alter Rebbe. Many people have positive experiences with Chabad without becoming "Yehi" drones (those that chant that the Rebbe is King Moshiach). There is not a lot of pressure for Jews to become observant because otherwise they'd lose half the congregation that drives cars on Shabbat!
If you remember, the Rebbe had a stroke shortly after his followers started claiming he was moshiach. The Rebbe did not deny or confirm these claims before he was incapacitated. True, a generation of Lubavichers went crazy, but there are plenty of Jews who are good and sincere and follow the Chassidic teachings that existed prior to the Rebbe's fiasco.
I would not condemn the whole of Chabad Chassidut or other Chassidic sects or equate them with a cult or a new religious movement as discussed under this heading.
You certainly appear to have a "license to Jew" and have made some valid points against Chabad and Lubavichers, but you give a wrong impression to those who do not have entry into the ultra orthodox world of Judaism.
There are also those who quietly do not believe that the Rebbe is/was moshiach and there are a sincere group of young people who consider themselves "modern Lubavich". The shliach community (Jewish couples who were sent out to open synagogues and teach Torah true Judaism) is diverse in their teachings about moshiach. I know of one Chabad Rabbi who forbade his own sister-in-law from teaching at his shul ever again for preaching the idea that the Rebbe was moshiach to his congregation! The concept of King Moshiach is a bone of contention for many Jews and most Chabad houses no longer push the issue and stick to teaching about Torah and mitzvot. The frantic energy surrounding the coming redemption has died down. Yes, many of the shliach still are true believers, but they don't harp on it anymore.
Most Chabad synagogues outside of Crown Heights are simply nice places to practice your Hebrew, hear the Torah portion, have a nice kiddish and smooze with friends or celibrate a simchah (bar mitzvah, wedding, birth) or know how to mourn the death of a loved one in a Jewish way. Anyone who wants to learn the basic tenents of Judaism would not lose by going to Chabad.org or AskMoses.com or any Chabbad Rabbi. They are more knowledgable than you imply. The services in the synagogue have not changed from the times of the Alter Rebbe. Many people have positive experiences with Chabad without becoming "Yehi" drones (those that chant that the Rebbe is King Moshiach). There is not a lot of pressure for Jews to become observant because otherwise they'd lose half the congregation that drives cars on Shabbat!
If you remember, the Rebbe had a stroke shortly after his followers started claiming he was moshiach. The Rebbe did not deny or confirm these claims before he was incapacitated. True, a generation of Lubavichers went crazy, but there are plenty of Jews who are good and sincere and follow the Chassidic teachings that existed prior to the Rebbe's fiasco.
I would not condemn the whole of Chabad Chassidut or other Chassidic sects or equate them with a cult or a new religious movement as discussed under this heading.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
egel ha zahav
()
Date: June 07, 2006 01:02PM
richardgreen you'll enjoy this funny video on chabad outreach activities.
this is the right link -- [www.apple770.com]
this is the right link -- [www.apple770.com]
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: June 08, 2006 10:57PM
One of the things you need to know about Chabad is that the Meshichist position and the boreinuniks (people who believe that Rabbi Schneerson was God incarnate) are a minority in the movement. The problem is that they are very vocal. Much of my dislike of the group is based on their being very pushy, not too sophisticated and too much of a problem when it comes to politics. This is not just a personal vendetta.
Rabbi Shea Hecht is not from a family that was involved in Chabad Lubavitch from the founding of the movement in Belarus, White Russia around 300 years ago. His father joined the movement many years ago and Shea is pretty much an upper-crusty type of Chabadnik, which is why he's so successful. He's not cut from the peasant stock that most of their movement is cut from. He was from a family of prominents rabbis for 4 generations.
I felt that they really weren't the best Jewish organization and they definitely didn't know much about Christianity which is why I wrote so much on the Amazon.com reviews. Before you go out half cocked trying to combat something, at least become familiar with what you're trying to fight.
One of the problems my family had was that no other Jewish organization seemed to want to deal with us. My father went to a number of rabbis and Shea once told me he really didn't want to deal with me either. But I believe that they actually had to deal with us because they were the ones who created much of the problem in the first place since my original Hebrew school education came from them. In fact, my mother had a booklet on Chanuka that was published by Kehot, so they must have taught my mom too. They turned me into a Jewish missionary from day one. And I drove my parents crazy over their lack of "religiosity". I was worse than the Christian children of Jewish parents because originally I was pushing Judaism which is a much more ritualistic type of religion. I never pushed the Christian beliefs I later took on with my family.
My family went to Chabad a number of times after our initial dealings with Chabad and the rabbis didn't seem to know what to do to help us. Nevertheless, they tried to push me around considerably.
I went to a seder there years ago that was for the general public and all kinds of derelicts were there. One of the rabbis gave a speech about Jews who left Judaism and came back later on. He said, "we can forgive them but never quite trust them again". I got beaten up for my big mouth about Judaism when I was in public school. I never saw a rabbi around the whole time. In fact, the yeshiva students only became visible after I joined Ben Yishai. One of them gave me a speech, "Before you left Judaism, you should have checked out what it had for you". Generally, speaking I tended to ignore all this stupidity years ago, but these yeshiva guys didn't know what the heck they were saying or who they were saying it to. Hopefully, the word will get out know. I find that I keep having the same arguments with different people. It's like fighting a war and fresh troops keep getting sent in. It's sort of exasperating especially due to the fact that many orthodox Jews don't read popular literature or watch TV. The question is, "how can I broadcast my story and make myself heard in the orthodox Jewish community?" so the Jewish world will finally learn a hard lesson from all of this.
Rabbi Shea Hecht is not from a family that was involved in Chabad Lubavitch from the founding of the movement in Belarus, White Russia around 300 years ago. His father joined the movement many years ago and Shea is pretty much an upper-crusty type of Chabadnik, which is why he's so successful. He's not cut from the peasant stock that most of their movement is cut from. He was from a family of prominents rabbis for 4 generations.
I felt that they really weren't the best Jewish organization and they definitely didn't know much about Christianity which is why I wrote so much on the Amazon.com reviews. Before you go out half cocked trying to combat something, at least become familiar with what you're trying to fight.
One of the problems my family had was that no other Jewish organization seemed to want to deal with us. My father went to a number of rabbis and Shea once told me he really didn't want to deal with me either. But I believe that they actually had to deal with us because they were the ones who created much of the problem in the first place since my original Hebrew school education came from them. In fact, my mother had a booklet on Chanuka that was published by Kehot, so they must have taught my mom too. They turned me into a Jewish missionary from day one. And I drove my parents crazy over their lack of "religiosity". I was worse than the Christian children of Jewish parents because originally I was pushing Judaism which is a much more ritualistic type of religion. I never pushed the Christian beliefs I later took on with my family.
My family went to Chabad a number of times after our initial dealings with Chabad and the rabbis didn't seem to know what to do to help us. Nevertheless, they tried to push me around considerably.
I went to a seder there years ago that was for the general public and all kinds of derelicts were there. One of the rabbis gave a speech about Jews who left Judaism and came back later on. He said, "we can forgive them but never quite trust them again". I got beaten up for my big mouth about Judaism when I was in public school. I never saw a rabbi around the whole time. In fact, the yeshiva students only became visible after I joined Ben Yishai. One of them gave me a speech, "Before you left Judaism, you should have checked out what it had for you". Generally, speaking I tended to ignore all this stupidity years ago, but these yeshiva guys didn't know what the heck they were saying or who they were saying it to. Hopefully, the word will get out know. I find that I keep having the same arguments with different people. It's like fighting a war and fresh troops keep getting sent in. It's sort of exasperating especially due to the fact that many orthodox Jews don't read popular literature or watch TV. The question is, "how can I broadcast my story and make myself heard in the orthodox Jewish community?" so the Jewish world will finally learn a hard lesson from all of this.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 08, 2006 11:05PM
richard:
Why do you think the Lubavitchers don't have a new rebbe?
This seems very odd given their history.
Why do you think the Lubavitchers don't have a new rebbe?
This seems very odd given their history.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
egel ha zahav
()
Date: June 09, 2006 12:41AM
So richard, it was out of the frying pan and into the fire for you, eh. One cult to another. You are a Jew for Jesus using this forum. Clever.
rrmoderator- No Rebbe was chosen because the guy had a stroke before he could choose a successor and the rest of the followers did not know what to do! They will carry on in the same way that the Breslov Chassidic movement does - with a dead Rebbe - studying his commentaries and following the traditions). The cult of personality dies down as successive generations are distanced from the historical person. It then boils down to the traditional practices which have helped Jews survive for centuries in the diaspora with or without leadership.
BTW- there are many sects that were offshoots of the Baal shem Tov who started the Chassidic movement. You just don't know about them because they have either died off, had few followers and no succession, or are insular and do no outreach.
FYI - The main difference between Judaism and any other religion on the planet is that none of the Jewish leaders are considered infalible. King David, King Solomon, Moses, etc. were all flawed - and their mistakes are widely discussed in the Torah and writings. They may have possessed "mystical" powers but were never considered a divinity or God as is Jesus, Bhuddha, Krishna, and Mohammed.
Even the concept of Moshiach (Messiah) in Judaism is profoundly different than in Christianity. The people who believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach never equated him with God. This is fundamental to Judaism. Anything different is [u:7f4e41fdf5][i:7f4e41fdf5]not[/i:7f4e41fdf5][/u:7f4e41fdf5] Judaism. This is very clear. There are no alters to the Rebbe, nor is he worshipped in the synagogue. (You might see a lot of pictures of the Rebbe everywhere with the mishihest folks,but they don't burn incense or offer sacrifices to his efigy!) Religious services are the same as they were hundreds of years ago before Menachem Mendel showed up.
The issue is that richard green suffered under the fanatical hands of a group that has turned their sect into a cult. This is the tragedy. No wonder he jumped ship and is still working out a lot of hurt and anger.
rrmoderator- No Rebbe was chosen because the guy had a stroke before he could choose a successor and the rest of the followers did not know what to do! They will carry on in the same way that the Breslov Chassidic movement does - with a dead Rebbe - studying his commentaries and following the traditions). The cult of personality dies down as successive generations are distanced from the historical person. It then boils down to the traditional practices which have helped Jews survive for centuries in the diaspora with or without leadership.
BTW- there are many sects that were offshoots of the Baal shem Tov who started the Chassidic movement. You just don't know about them because they have either died off, had few followers and no succession, or are insular and do no outreach.
FYI - The main difference between Judaism and any other religion on the planet is that none of the Jewish leaders are considered infalible. King David, King Solomon, Moses, etc. were all flawed - and their mistakes are widely discussed in the Torah and writings. They may have possessed "mystical" powers but were never considered a divinity or God as is Jesus, Bhuddha, Krishna, and Mohammed.
Even the concept of Moshiach (Messiah) in Judaism is profoundly different than in Christianity. The people who believed that the Rebbe was Moshiach never equated him with God. This is fundamental to Judaism. Anything different is [u:7f4e41fdf5][i:7f4e41fdf5]not[/i:7f4e41fdf5][/u:7f4e41fdf5] Judaism. This is very clear. There are no alters to the Rebbe, nor is he worshipped in the synagogue. (You might see a lot of pictures of the Rebbe everywhere with the mishihest folks,but they don't burn incense or offer sacrifices to his efigy!) Religious services are the same as they were hundreds of years ago before Menachem Mendel showed up.
The issue is that richard green suffered under the fanatical hands of a group that has turned their sect into a cult. This is the tragedy. No wonder he jumped ship and is still working out a lot of hurt and anger.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: June 09, 2006 02:58AM
It seems to me that they felt t they didn't have anyone of Menachem Mendel Shcneerson's caliber. I had heard that years ago they were thinking of making Adin Steinsaltz the rebbe but that didn't go through.Quote
rrmoderator
richard:
Why do you think the Lubavitchers don't have a new rebbe?
This seems very odd given their history.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: June 09, 2006 03:01AM
I have no such agenda vis a vis pushing Christianity of Rick Ross would have gotten on my case about it. I'm in the church for good reason and you don't have to agree about it. Judaism believes in miracles too not just Christianity and I have my doubts about all of it.Quote
egel ha zahav
So richard, it was out of the frying pan and into the fire for you, eh. One cult to another. You are a Jew for Jesus using this forum. Clever.
I'm not part of J4J and if they use subterfuge, which I've heard they do then I'm not into it.
Why did Chabad go off the way they did
Posted by:
egel ha zahav
()
Date: June 09, 2006 04:22AM
Quote
richardmgreenI have no such agenda vis a vis pushing Christianity of Rick Ross would have gotten on my case about it. I'm in the church for good reason and you don't have to agree about it. Judaism believes in miracles too not just Christianity and I have my doubts about all of it.Quote
egel ha zahav
So richard, it was out of the frying pan and into the fire for you, eh. One cult to another. You are a Jew for Jesus using this forum. Clever.
I'm not part of J4J and if they use subterfuge, which I've heard they do then I'm not into it.
I wasn't speaking about miracles, only the specific belief in the divinity of a mortal man or that he is God (part of trinity, incarnation, or whatever...). Judaism is the only religion I know about that does not raise a man to the level of a worshipable idol. Our brother Muslims have put a curious spin on the concept. They'll kill you for drawing a picture of Bro Mo, but praise his name daily and tell you that he lept on his magic horse from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to Mecca! I don't need to talk about the dangers of this personality cult and [i:7781da79fe]new religion[/i:7781da79fe] (compared to Judaism and Christianity)!
You may or may not be a J4J. Just because you are not preaching Christianity does not mean you are not promoting their agenda, which is to defame their mortal enemy Chabad! LOL Take it easy. Jews have a lot of experience dealing with their periodic Shabtai Zvis (self proclaimed Messiahs). Sometimes some guys just go off the deep end to the Other Side! :D The Rebbe cult is already dying down. Be happy.
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