Pain reduction, dissociation and highly suggestibility accounts for a state of physiological death? How?

Nad:

You seem to want an argument.

Biofeedback is closely associated with hypnosis and trance induction, and it is used for pain relief.

See [www.cme.umn.edu]

Also see [www.indiana.edu]

I don't see anything incredible about the mystics you cite and no scientific evidence to support your claims.

You appear to be convinced though and evidently believing in this is important to you.

However, this message board isn't about sharing your beliefs, but rather about examining the behavior of certain controversial groups and leaders.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2012 01:54AM by rrmoderator.

i am sorry to say this but you didn't really answer my question about how concentrating on God can lead to states of respiratory and heart failure.

I know you are trying to prove that hypnotic states seem to characterise a lot of different states of humans and some can be right and wrong, and so on.... but i don't see how you have proved that focussing the mind can lead to physiological death based on the nature of the prayer state or meditation or hypnotic state.

I'm just asking you how you can account for physiological death in persons that meditate on God. Simple. No need to link to anything. Just explain it.

You said:-

"I don't see anything incredible about the mystics you cite and no scientific evidence to support your claims."

So clearly you are not interested in anecdotes. But can you explain what scientific evidence is please? I don't EVEN know what that IS.

I see something incredible about the mystics i cited. I see that they breathing and heart beat are absent and that is designated a state of ecstasy by many different races and communities and religions of this world. So, if you can provide evidence of how concentration on Gods can reduce a human being to being physiologically DEAD, please do that. If you cannot do this, please so not delete this message.

Nad:

Read the material linked.

You have not cited any scientific evidence to prove the claims that you have made on this thread.

I don't believe your claims. And without such evidence there is no reason that anyone else should either.

If you want to believe that's your choice, but once again this message board is not for people to share their beliefs and rules you agreed to actually preclude this specifically.

Trance can have an effect on the body. Again, read the material linked.

Frankly, if you want to argue you have come to the wrong message board.

Absolutely wrong. I came here to hear you explain how concentration on God can make people's bodies die physiologically. I didn't come here to argue with you sir.

Again, please explain how a relaxed focus of concentration on something can produce death of the body.

I am not interested in your theories of trance. Is that clear?


No, i am not arguing with you. I just don't believe that you have answered my question yet. I await a reponse.

I am sorry that you didn't like my answer to your question, but it was answered. See the previous post and read it again.

Your question is based upon the assumption that "God can make people's bodies die physiologically".

This is an assumption that you have made, or a faith claim, which you have not substantiated through any factual objective scientifically measured evidence whatsoever.

Perhaps this is your theory or belief, but without meaningful objective evidence it simply falls flat.

You may not "believe" that's an answer to your "question", but there it is, and others reading this thread will see that.

Is that clear enough for you?

OK, you asked for evidence. I can give evidence.

Check out the samadhi of Paramahansa Ramarkishna, and paramahansa Yogananda, for textual and witness based evidence for physiological death.

ONce you have done this, please report back.

Quote
rrmoderator
Nad:

Despite what "left_of_the_dial" said, in many groups the "thoughtless state" is essentially self-hypnosis or trance induction through some sort of group practice.

Of course those involved in reaching such disassociated states don't recognize that it is a hypnotic state. They prefer to characterize it otherwise. For example, some might say that other groups practice forms of hypnosis, "but not my group" etc.

In a way, you are correct.

When I teach meditation/Vedanta...I try to make the difference very clear from the beginning.

I tell them them to question everything I say and not accept anything unless it corresponds w/ your own 'common sense'.

In a 'trance-like' or 'dissociative' state...people are, to a large degree, robbed of their common sense.

That is NOT self-awareness or the 'thoughtless state'.

I am very clear about this from the beginning and want people to understand it so that nobody, including myself, ever takes advantage of them.

As a 'cult-awareness forum', this is a great place where people can come and know when somebody is taking advantage of them.

As a teacher of Vedanta and meditation, I do agree that some of the 'teachers' listed on these pages are 'cult leaders'.

They are people who think they are 'awakened' but are NOT.

I often recommend Mooji, who was mentioned on this website, but have never recommended Andrew Cohen and his little network of ego-maniacs.

A real teachers has a loving/accepting presence and WANTS you to ask questions and challenge them.

And unenlightened teacher, like Andrew Cohen, usually appear insulted and get aggressive when questioned or challenged.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

This website is a good place to talk about this difference and make people ware of it so that they don't allow themselves to get involved with somebody who is out to take advantage of them.