Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 05, 2012 12:28AM
If anyone has the nerve to suggest that I am 'getting worked up' or 'obsessed' or am 'hating on' Tolle, I have solid reason to write as I do.
Tolle and Byron Katie and these other 'sudden enlightement' types are making vast sums of money and establishing business empires.
Where do they come from?
Whats the process of creating these tycoons?
This alone is a worthy question.
It is worth remembering this is an open society and what I have written is protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
No one should be exempt from questioning. To question is not to 'hate'.
I write out of concern, because I have been thorugh depression. One thing I have noticed over the years is that a lot of forum discussions for depressed persons refer to Tolle as a resource.
[www.google.com]
He has no professional accountability and lives cocooned in an entourage and so cannot give real assistance in how to live day to day without an entourage.
I have also seen people at my 12 step groups recommending Tolle's stuff.
He is a money making machine and as such has incentive to keep people hooked on his public persona.
At the very least, he should speak with kinder and better manners at public interviews, as it is such interviews that give him publicity and continued assistance in becoming and remaining rich.
The US Constitution and our very wealthy nation with its lucrative herd of seekers was created by activists. They were not slowed down or hampered by Mr Tolle's own teachings, and thus, because they were not affected by Mr Tolle, they left behind a nation that was ready and waiting to become one of the sources of Mr Tolle's influence and wealth.
Ditto for the British and ANZAC commonwealths. These areas, created long ago by activists, offer hospitality and protection of free speech and enable ambitious gurus such as Mr Tolle to peddle his quietism. He is quite the ego driven activist in teaching the evils of ego and personality.
Seems all personalities must go so Tolle and his fellow entrepreneurs (all coddled by entourages) can remain.
Afte World War II, had various nationalities bought into Mr Tolle and his sedative teachings, Europe would probably have remained a pile of rubble.
Tolle himself could not have had the resources in Germany or in postwar England to get a university education were it not for the very many who took action to rebuild after the war. They were not hampered by second guessing humanity and ego.
Many of us who have lived long enough to deal with twaddle marketed by Tolle, Byron Katie, and others of their kind are alive because of medical and social progress made possible by persons who were humanist and put their egos to use without questioning the validity of ego.
A benevolant adult ego supported by education, health and placed in a genuinely participatory democracy is a beautiful thing.
THe social venue around wealthy and entourage cosseted Mr Tolle and his thought stopping comments is not a democracy because its not a venue for genuine dialogue.
And through his hard work and generosity, Mr Ross offers one of the few places where we can question these media creations who call themselves gurus or 'teachers.'
Ah now lets have a peek at Mr Tolle's advice concerning depression in this interview.
Dear Ophrah requires all who work for her to sign non disclosure documents. She is cossetted by an entourage, too.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
It is interesting that John Falk's detailed and nuanced book did not sell. But this Tolle twaddle became a best seller.
How many depressed people are feeling worse about themselves because they are dealing with a biochemical problem and trying to think themselves out of their predicament using Tolle's story as a standard of comparison? Or Byron Katies cockroach tale as a standard of comparison. We have seen John Falks description of himself when cut off from medication in Tuzla and how he tried to will himself out of depression reminding himself it was just a brain dysfunction. This attempt to dis-identify from his depression did not succeed. He had gutted his way through ten years of deprssion starting at age 13, disidentifying so throughly that he had two aspects-a depressed self and a superficially happy kid self. This did not result in a cure.
After ten years he was fondling a shotgun.
It is because pop psychological stuff of this kind does a disservice to people with serious psychological health issues that I publish as I do.
Tolle and Byron Katie and these other 'sudden enlightement' types are making vast sums of money and establishing business empires.
Where do they come from?
Whats the process of creating these tycoons?
This alone is a worthy question.
It is worth remembering this is an open society and what I have written is protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
No one should be exempt from questioning. To question is not to 'hate'.
I write out of concern, because I have been thorugh depression. One thing I have noticed over the years is that a lot of forum discussions for depressed persons refer to Tolle as a resource.
[www.google.com]
He has no professional accountability and lives cocooned in an entourage and so cannot give real assistance in how to live day to day without an entourage.
I have also seen people at my 12 step groups recommending Tolle's stuff.
He is a money making machine and as such has incentive to keep people hooked on his public persona.
At the very least, he should speak with kinder and better manners at public interviews, as it is such interviews that give him publicity and continued assistance in becoming and remaining rich.
The US Constitution and our very wealthy nation with its lucrative herd of seekers was created by activists. They were not slowed down or hampered by Mr Tolle's own teachings, and thus, because they were not affected by Mr Tolle, they left behind a nation that was ready and waiting to become one of the sources of Mr Tolle's influence and wealth.
Ditto for the British and ANZAC commonwealths. These areas, created long ago by activists, offer hospitality and protection of free speech and enable ambitious gurus such as Mr Tolle to peddle his quietism. He is quite the ego driven activist in teaching the evils of ego and personality.
Seems all personalities must go so Tolle and his fellow entrepreneurs (all coddled by entourages) can remain.
Afte World War II, had various nationalities bought into Mr Tolle and his sedative teachings, Europe would probably have remained a pile of rubble.
Tolle himself could not have had the resources in Germany or in postwar England to get a university education were it not for the very many who took action to rebuild after the war. They were not hampered by second guessing humanity and ego.
Many of us who have lived long enough to deal with twaddle marketed by Tolle, Byron Katie, and others of their kind are alive because of medical and social progress made possible by persons who were humanist and put their egos to use without questioning the validity of ego.
A benevolant adult ego supported by education, health and placed in a genuinely participatory democracy is a beautiful thing.
THe social venue around wealthy and entourage cosseted Mr Tolle and his thought stopping comments is not a democracy because its not a venue for genuine dialogue.
And through his hard work and generosity, Mr Ross offers one of the few places where we can question these media creations who call themselves gurus or 'teachers.'
Ah now lets have a peek at Mr Tolle's advice concerning depression in this interview.
Quote
Eckhart Tolle On Depression
Excerpted from transcript of Oprah and Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth Online Class
SHARON (AUDIENCE MEMBER): Hi, Oprah. Hello, Mr. Tolle. I have a question. I have close relationships to people who suffer from depression.
And in talking with them and trying to be useful to my friends when they talk to me about a bout of depression or what have you, I find that there's an inwardness and a strong identity that they have as people who suffer from depression.
And I wonder, what role does the ego play in depression, and to what extent is it helpful to sort of point them toward this definition of the ego, the content identity
and the structural identity?
I mean, or is it unfair for me to feel that that should be useful, given that, you know, there seems to be a strong identification with themselves as people
who suffer from depression.
ECKHART TOLLE: Yes. That, again, brings us back to an earlier question where the condition — whether the condition is a physical condition that one suffers from or whether it is a psychological condition that one suffers from.
There is the tendency to identify oneself with the illness or with the—whatever
it is. And then...
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): "And I'm depressed because I'm identifying with my whole story."
ECKHART TOLLE: Yes.
OPRAH: "And my story's sad."
ECKHART TOLLE: Yes.
OPRAH: And that would make me depressed. Yeah.
ECKHART TOLLE: Yes. If you're very strongly identified with my sad story, which for many people, yes, the story is sad. I had a sad story for many years until I let go of it.
OPRAH: And you were in depression. You were depressed.
ECKHART TOLLE: I was depressed, yes. And until one night, I woke up, and I realized that this unhappy self is not who I am.
I could sense the I am-ness that came from a much deeper level than me and my
story and my unhappy self. And I describe that as the self that I could no longer live with. I asked myself, "What is that self? Who am I? Am I that self?"
No, I am I. I am consciousness. I am presence.
OPRAH: I am.
ECKHART TOLLE: I am. So the question, of course, is what do you tell your friends? Because it's not easy to tell a person that you are identified with an ego image, and very likely, you will get resistance.
OPRAH: Correct. They'll say, "What is wrong with you?" They'll go, "What is your problem?"
SHARON (AUDIENCE MEMBER): Yes.
ECKHART TOLLE: You know, I would suggest doing it in a more subtle way, and that is, perhaps, point out the possibility of becoming aware of one's thought processes, of thoughts that arise instead of being totally identified with the thoughts.
Perhaps you can tell your friend what you've been doing for yourself. You can tell that it's not threatening to the ego. If you tell something that you have been doing, you've been observing your own thoughts, that you are more detached now from your thoughts than you were before, and you realize that thoughts are only thoughts.
They are not who you are. And if you can tell them about yourself, that could help.
OPRAH: But many times, if you are depressed, I think you're so attached to the story. The story works for you, you know, the idea of being a depressed person works for you.
ECKHART TOLLE: Yes. So it's good. Sometimes depression comes in waves for some people, so you go through periods.
And then there are good times when you come out of it, and that is a good time because then you are more aware than when you're down in the depression.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Dear Ophrah requires all who work for her to sign non disclosure documents. She is cossetted by an entourage, too.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
It is interesting that John Falk's detailed and nuanced book did not sell. But this Tolle twaddle became a best seller.
How many depressed people are feeling worse about themselves because they are dealing with a biochemical problem and trying to think themselves out of their predicament using Tolle's story as a standard of comparison? Or Byron Katies cockroach tale as a standard of comparison. We have seen John Falks description of himself when cut off from medication in Tuzla and how he tried to will himself out of depression reminding himself it was just a brain dysfunction. This attempt to dis-identify from his depression did not succeed. He had gutted his way through ten years of deprssion starting at age 13, disidentifying so throughly that he had two aspects-a depressed self and a superficially happy kid self. This did not result in a cure.
After ten years he was fondling a shotgun.
Quote
If you are deeply depressed -- if you've come to hate your own existence, as well as the world --
then I hope you'll find comfort in
the story of Eckhart Tolle.
Tolle, who was born in Germany, is
now about 50 years-old. He is widely
regarded as one of the few enlightened spiritual teachers in
the Western world.
But when he was 29, Eckhart Tolle
almost killed himself. I am going to
quote the first few paragraphs of
Tolle's magnificent book, THE POWER
OF NOW. If anything he says resonates with you, I hope you'll
buy a copy of the book, and read it
slowly. It might change your life.
"I have little use for the past and
rarely think about it. However, I
would briefly like to tell you how
I came to be a spiritual teacher, and how this book came into existence."
"Until my 30th year, I lived in a
state of almost continuous anxiety,
interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as
if I am talking about some past lifetime, or somebody else's life."
"One night, not long after my 29th
birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absoute dread. I had woken up with such a
feeling many times before, but this
time it was more intense than it had
ever been before."
"The silence of the night, the vague
outlines of furniture in the dark
room, the distant noise of a passing
train -- everything felt so alien,
so hostile, and so utterly meaningless, that it created a deep
loathing in me: a deep loathing of
the world."
"The most loathsome thing of all,
however, was my own existence. What
was the point in continuing to live
with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep
longing for annihilation, for non-existence, was now becoming much
stronger than the instinctive desire
to continue to live."
"'I cannot live with myself any longer.' This was the thought that
kept repeating itself in my mind."
End of excerpt. To find out how
Eckhart Tolle conquered his depression, and completely remade himself, spiritually and emotionally, you should read the book. It will repay its cost a
thousandfold, and open Doors for
you that need to be opened.
The terrible night that Tolle described above, was his Dark Night
of the Soul; the very lowest point
in what had been a lifelong descending slide. Lots of very
famous spiritual gurus went through
precisely the same emotional crisis.
Buddha spent six years trying to
become enlightened. He was a disciple, at one time or another,
to every famous spiritual teacher
of his time. But none of them could
help him. So Buddha finally gave up.
He sat himself down under a Bodhi
tree for 43 days, and became more
and more despressed at his failure.
Finally, Buddha, like Tolle and others, reached his absolute lowest
point. He gave up his desire to
become enlightened, he gave up all
his desires, and waited to die. It
was Buddha's Dark Night of the Soul.
Instead of dying, Budda awoke the
next morning as an enlightened being.By giving up all his desires,
he connected with his soul, the
Divine Essence which was inside him
(and is inside all of us), and was
literally reborn. Buddha spent the
next 40 years helping others to
feel their connection with all beings and all things.
Swami Rama is one of the most
famous mystics who ever came to
America. In the 1970's, Swami Rama
dazzled the doctors at the Mayo
Clinic with his magical abilities
to completely control every aspect
of his body. He could willfully stop
his heart, or cause it to beat at
360 cycles a minute. Rama could
drain every drop of blood from the
right side of his body -- it turned
white and dead -- and send the blood
to his left side. Later, he founded
The Himalayan Institute in Pennsylvania, which survives and thrives to this day.
But Swami Rama tried to kill himself
when he was in his mid 20's. He lived in India, and had been apprenticed to enlightened gurus all
his life. However, the young Bhole Baba
(as he was known then) could not
make that final jump into his own
enlightenment. So he told his mentor, Babaji, that he was going
to tie rocks to his legs, and throw
himself into the Ganges River.
Babaji followed his young disciple
to the riverbank. This was the Dark
Night of the Soul for young Bhole.
He'd failed for 20 years to achieve
his only desire. It was time to die.
Bhole tied ropes around the big
rocks, and then attached the ropes
to his legs. He stood on a platform
above the deep water, and looked back one last time at his mentor,
Babaji. And at that dark moment,
Babaji worked forward, touched
Bhole Baba on the forehead, and
the young man fell backwards on the
bank, and went into a 24-hour swoon.
When he awoke, Bhole Baba was no
more. The young man had become
enlightened, and was known thereafter as Swami Rama.
So if you're feeling very depressed,
and have even flirted with the idea
of suicide, know that some of the
greatest men and women in history
have felt exactly as you do. Recall
Jesus' Dark Night of the Soul, when
he called out to God, "My God! My
God! Why has Thou forsaken me!"
Don't give up hope! Work on yourself, educate yourself about
true spirituality. You are not your
body, and you are not your mind.
Begin with Eckhart Tolle's book, and
go from there. Your Soul wants you
to live, and so does God, the Universal Soul. Find a way to make
it happen.
Blessings,
Owen
©†ƒ……•™¼‡_Original_Message_¾€š½ž¢«»¬ï°©
If you are deeply depressed -- if you've come to hate your own existence, as well as the world --
then I hope you'll find comfort in
the story of Eckhart Tolle.
Tolle, who was born in Germany, is
now about 50 years-old. He is widely
regarded as one of the few enlightened spiritual teachers in
the Western world.
But when he was 29, Eckhart Tolle
almost killed himself. I am going to
quote the first few paragraphs of
Tolle's magnificent book, THE POWER
OF NOW. If anything he says resonates with you, I hope you'll
buy a copy of the book, and read it
slowly. It might change your life.
"I have little use for the past and
rarely think about it. However, I
would briefly like to tell you how
I came to be a spiritual teacher, and how this book came into existence."
"Until my 30th year, I lived in a
state of almost continuous anxiety,
interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as
if I am talking about some past lifetime, or somebody else's life."
"One night, not long after my 29th
birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absoute dread. I had woken up with such a
feeling many times before, but this
time it was more intense than it had
ever been before."
"The silence of the night, the vague
outlines of furniture in the dark
room, the distant noise of a passing
train -- everything felt so alien,
so hostile, and so utterly meaningless, that it created a deep
loathing in me: a deep loathing of
the world."
"The most loathsome thing of all,
however, was my own existence. What
was the point in continuing to live
with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep
longing for annihilation, for non-existence, was now becoming much
stronger than the instinctive desire
to continue to live."
"'I cannot live with myself any longer.' This was the thought that
kept repeating itself in my mind."
End of excerpt. To find out how
Eckhart Tolle conquered his depression, and completely remade himself, spiritually and emotionally, you should read the book. It will repay its cost a
thousandfold, and open Doors for
you that need to be opened.
The terrible night that Tolle described above, was his Dark Night
of the Soul; the very lowest point
in what had been a lifelong descending slide. Lots of very
famous spiritual gurus went through
precisely the same emotional crisis.
Buddha spent six years trying to
become enlightened. He was a disciple, at one time or another,
to every famous spiritual teacher
of his time. But none of them could
help him. So Buddha finally gave up.
He sat himself down under a Bodhi
tree for 43 days, and became more
and more despressed at his failure.
Finally, Buddha, like Tolle and others, reached his absolute lowest
point. He gave up his desire to
become enlightened, he gave up all
his desires, and waited to die. It
was Buddha's Dark Night of the Soul.
Instead of dying, Budda awoke the
next morning as an enlightened being.By giving up all his desires,
he connected with his soul, the
Divine Essence which was inside him
(and is inside all of us), and was
literally reborn. Buddha spent the
next 40 years helping others to
feel their connection with all beings and all things.
Swami Rama is one of the most
famous mystics who ever came to
America. In the 1970's, Swami Rama
dazzled the doctors at the Mayo
Clinic with his magical abilities
to completely control every aspect
of his body. He could willfully stop
his heart, or cause it to beat at
360 cycles for minute. Rama could
drain every drop of blood from the
right side of his body -- it turned
white and dead -- and send the blood
to his left side. Later, he founded
The Himalayan Institute in Pennsylvania, which survives and thrives to this day.
But Swami Rama tried to kill himself
when he was in his mid 20's. He lived in India, and had been apprenticed to enlightened gurus all
his life. But the young Bhole Baba
(as he was then known) could not
make that final jump into his own
enlightenment. So he told his mentor, Babaji, that he was going
to tie rocks to his legs, and throw
himself into the Ganges River.
Babaji followed his young disciple
to the riverbank. This was the Dark
Night of the Soul for young Bhole.
He'd failed for 20 years to achieve
his only desire. It was time to die.
Bhole tied ropes around the big
rocks, and then attached the ropes
to his legs. He stood on a platform
above the deep water, and looked back one last time at his mentor,
Babaji. And at that dark moment,
Babaji worked forward, touched
Bhole Baba on the forehead, and
the young man fell backwards on the
bank, and went into a 24-hour swoon.
When he awoke, Bhole Baba was no
more. The young man had become
enlightened, and was known thereafter as Swami Rama.
So if you're feeling very depressed,
and have even flirted with the idea
of suicide, know that some of the
greatest men and women in history
have felt exactly as you do. Recall
Jesus' Dark Night of the Soul, when
he called out to God, "My God! My
God! Why has Thou forsaken me!"
Don't give up hope! Work on yourself, educate yourself about
true spirituality. You are not your
body, and you are not your mind.
Begin with Eckhart Tolle's book, and
go from there. Your Soul wants you
to live, and so does God, the Universal Soul. Find a way to make
it happen.
Blessings,
Owen
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
It is because pop psychological stuff of this kind does a disservice to people with serious psychological health issues that I publish as I do.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
Thinkwise23
()
Date: May 07, 2012 05:33AM
The 3 cards trick you mention earlier is very interesting and hits the nail on the head with Eckhart Tolle. He would really struggle in a debate, so just sticks to his tried and tested techniques and avoids anyone who might trump him.
I do remember from his book 'The power of Now' that he makes it very plain to people by stating "of course there is something wrong with you". So he is able to make that unbelievably arrogant comment, even though he hasn't met you, because he's already decided that he's the only person living life the 'true' way and nobody else can come close to that, unless you by his books.
I've recently been reading 'Miracle in the Andes' by Nando Parrado, the hero of the Andes plane crash in 1972, who rescued all of the survivors by trecking 10 days with a friend to Chile, living only on the flesh of his dead friends. It's an incredibly emotional book, full of heartbreak and amazing courage and determination which ended very happily for the survivors.
I couldn't help thinking, who are the real heros in life? who would you really want by your side in a crises of that magnitude? would it be Eckhart Tolle? I think not. With his small frame and 'accept all' mentality he would have been completely useless in that situation. I'd much rather respect people who've really done something with their lives.
I do remember from his book 'The power of Now' that he makes it very plain to people by stating "of course there is something wrong with you". So he is able to make that unbelievably arrogant comment, even though he hasn't met you, because he's already decided that he's the only person living life the 'true' way and nobody else can come close to that, unless you by his books.
I've recently been reading 'Miracle in the Andes' by Nando Parrado, the hero of the Andes plane crash in 1972, who rescued all of the survivors by trecking 10 days with a friend to Chile, living only on the flesh of his dead friends. It's an incredibly emotional book, full of heartbreak and amazing courage and determination which ended very happily for the survivors.
I couldn't help thinking, who are the real heros in life? who would you really want by your side in a crises of that magnitude? would it be Eckhart Tolle? I think not. With his small frame and 'accept all' mentality he would have been completely useless in that situation. I'd much rather respect people who've really done something with their lives.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 08, 2012 10:38PM
The teachings seem to be peripheral.
One could go straight to the source and look at books that give texts of conversations from Ramana Maharshi and Nisergetta if the 'teachings' were all that mattered.
What is annoying about Tolle and others like him is that they verbally say that they are offering teachings, but thier public actions and methods of staging their public appearances do something that runs counter to the verbal teachings.
The verbal teachings are supposed to be something or point to something beyond ego aggrandizement.
But all the actions done to publicize ET and other public personalities like him, have the effect of presenting him to hungry audiences as an indealizable object onto which audiences can project inner hopes of themselves, but in a way that makes it impossible for them to even identify or examine the process.
ET promises freedom from ego driven suffering, but keeps the focus on himself. He cant offer any method that would free his audiences from the process of seeking a transhuman ideal.
If he did offer an effective method by which to ID and then free oneself from the bondage of becoming mesmerized by someone elses public image, then after just one session of hearing Tolle or reading his book, his audience would be set free from needing him!
One could go straight to the source and look at books that give texts of conversations from Ramana Maharshi and Nisergetta if the 'teachings' were all that mattered.
What is annoying about Tolle and others like him is that they verbally say that they are offering teachings, but thier public actions and methods of staging their public appearances do something that runs counter to the verbal teachings.
The verbal teachings are supposed to be something or point to something beyond ego aggrandizement.
But all the actions done to publicize ET and other public personalities like him, have the effect of presenting him to hungry audiences as an indealizable object onto which audiences can project inner hopes of themselves, but in a way that makes it impossible for them to even identify or examine the process.
ET promises freedom from ego driven suffering, but keeps the focus on himself. He cant offer any method that would free his audiences from the process of seeking a transhuman ideal.
If he did offer an effective method by which to ID and then free oneself from the bondage of becoming mesmerized by someone elses public image, then after just one session of hearing Tolle or reading his book, his audience would be set free from needing him!
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
good enough
()
Date: May 09, 2012 01:56AM
[quote="I do remember from his book 'The power of Now' that he makes it very plain to people by stating "of course there is something wrong with you". So he is able to make that unbelievably arrogant comment, even though he hasn't met you, because he's already decided that he's the only person living life the 'true' way and nobody else can come close to that, unless you by his books."][/quote]
Thinkwise23, you've touched upon a couple of points which have bothered me about Tolle. The first being his unbelievable arrogance. If you agree with him and buy into his BS, then you're ready for "entitlement"... or Trolle's version of it. If you don't buy into the BS, then there's something wrong with you because, of course, Trolle couldn't possibly be wrong.
This is one of the reasons why I couldn't get past the first few pages. There is no reason why I should tolerate anyone's condescending statements, even if he's a popular new age guru and even if it's in a book I'm borrowing from the library.
You also wrote:
The new agers I've met have tended to be self-serving narcissists. They're high on their new age cotton candy bliss, but I have yet to meet even one such person who through their new found "enlightenment" has been motivated to do something positive to help others. It's all me, me, me, me, me.... my right to be happy, my right to do as I please and the hell with everyone else.
The new age movement is very effective at keeping followers locked in an immature, passive and selfish mind set where people sit on their butt and parrot the drivel of whatever guru they're excited about. You can think all the happy new age thoughts you want, but if you don't take positive goal oriented action, your life won't magically improve. For some reason the image of middle aged adults wearing nothing but diapers keeps coming to mind. Not a pretty picture.
Thinkwise23, you've touched upon a couple of points which have bothered me about Tolle. The first being his unbelievable arrogance. If you agree with him and buy into his BS, then you're ready for "entitlement"... or Trolle's version of it. If you don't buy into the BS, then there's something wrong with you because, of course, Trolle couldn't possibly be wrong.
This is one of the reasons why I couldn't get past the first few pages. There is no reason why I should tolerate anyone's condescending statements, even if he's a popular new age guru and even if it's in a book I'm borrowing from the library.
You also wrote:
Quote
I couldn't help thinking, who are the real heroes in life? who would you really want by your side in a crises of that magnitude? would it be Eckhart Tolle? I think not. With his small frame and 'accept all' mentality he would have been completely useless in that situation. I'd much rather respect people who've really done something with their lives.
The new agers I've met have tended to be self-serving narcissists. They're high on their new age cotton candy bliss, but I have yet to meet even one such person who through their new found "enlightenment" has been motivated to do something positive to help others. It's all me, me, me, me, me.... my right to be happy, my right to do as I please and the hell with everyone else.
The new age movement is very effective at keeping followers locked in an immature, passive and selfish mind set where people sit on their butt and parrot the drivel of whatever guru they're excited about. You can think all the happy new age thoughts you want, but if you don't take positive goal oriented action, your life won't magically improve. For some reason the image of middle aged adults wearing nothing but diapers keeps coming to mind. Not a pretty picture.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
EverVigilant
()
Date: May 09, 2012 04:40AM
Beautiful!Quote
good enough
For some reason the image of middle aged adults wearing nothing but diapers keeps coming to mind. Not a pretty picture.
I mean, not.
You know what I mean. That is just the image people need to see through this phenomenon.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
good enough
()
Date: May 09, 2012 05:31AM
Quote
If anyone has the nerve to suggest that I am 'getting worked up' or 'obsessed' or am 'hating on' Tolle, I have solid reason to write as I do. -- corboy
One of the reasons I keep coming back to the RR site is because so few people seem to realize or admit that the emperor is naked. Being around people who buy into this doggy doo is annoying and sometimes it feels like I am outnumbered. Very frustrating! Thankfully on this board I'm coming across others who are sharing their experiences, along with information to help others.
The media isn't doing its job, as in questioning Trolle or any other new age guru. The media is providing free space for what are essentially advertorials and as a result acting as publicity machines for these people who spew their crap, which at the very least is unhelpful and at its worst extremely dangerous. These self-serving gurus are using the media to fatten their already well padded bank accounts and while I have no proof, I suspect they have powerful PR experts who are well versed in how to manipulate.
I understand that it's impossible for editors and journalists to be on top of everything, but if a politician or anyone else abused their power the way Trolle does, I would hope that reporters would be out there digging for the truth. Why Trolle, Byron Katie, Louise Hay, Anthony Robbins, etc. seem to have free passes to do as they wish with so few questions being asked is beyond me. It's actually rather scary the way well known new age gurus can come to a city, knowing that the articles written about them before hand helped ensure sold out performances.
There must be a way of getting the info out with news releases or whatever else might work from this board to catch media attention. Then again, how many journalists are hooked on this stuff? I would hope they're too sceptical, but they are still human beings.
corboy, I appreciate the time you take to share the information you come across, along with your insights. Thank you.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
good enough
()
Date: May 09, 2012 05:48AM
Thanks, EverVigilant.
The funny thing is followers of this stuff actually believe they've been empowered and now have all the answers.
The funny thing is followers of this stuff actually believe they've been empowered and now have all the answers.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
Misstyk
()
Date: May 18, 2012 11:08AM
Thinkwise23, your description of Tolle's teachings and reactions sound a lot like a warmed-over pseudo-Buddhism. Telling people to abandon the "self", while he very much retains his "self" and gradually replaces the seeker's "self" with his own (Tolle's), countering criticism with accusations of "judgmentalism", these things are straight out of the Tibetan Buddhist playbook. He probably read a number of books on Buddhism and Hinduism, and stirred it all together into his own brand of soup. He reminds me in that regard of Deepak Chopra, who has been proven to have taken his ideas from a number of Eastern spiritual sources and boiled everything down into catchy sound bites.
good enough: This has been my question as well. Why do gurus get a free pass on abuse, both psychological and sexual? The media, rather than questioning these movements, leaders, and their motives, present us with exotic and picturesque rituals and charismatic spokespeople, images that are seem aimed at getting us to let down our guard and accept these potentially damaging elements into our communities, if not into our lives. Does freedom of religion in the US require abandonment of critical thought and critical speech regarding harmful spiritual leaders or communities? I hope not, but I can't help but wonder why there isn't any investigative journalism on this score.
good enough: This has been my question as well. Why do gurus get a free pass on abuse, both psychological and sexual? The media, rather than questioning these movements, leaders, and their motives, present us with exotic and picturesque rituals and charismatic spokespeople, images that are seem aimed at getting us to let down our guard and accept these potentially damaging elements into our communities, if not into our lives. Does freedom of religion in the US require abandonment of critical thought and critical speech regarding harmful spiritual leaders or communities? I hope not, but I can't help but wonder why there isn't any investigative journalism on this score.
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 18, 2012 11:51PM
Here is a term that might be useful in search engines.
antinomianism
Its the attitude or stance that if one is at a certain point of spiritual realization conventional morality and precepts no longer apply. The term is often used in discussions of Christianity, but one might see if it brings up new material for us in researching tantra.
Definition
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antinomianism
Its the attitude or stance that if one is at a certain point of spiritual realization conventional morality and precepts no longer apply. The term is often used in discussions of Christianity, but one might see if it brings up new material for us in researching tantra.
Definition
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Quote
Antinomianism (from the Greek: áíôé, "against" + íïìïò, "law"), or lawlessness (Greek: áíïìéá), in theology, is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality as presented by religious authorities.
**(Corboy note: The early Church seemed concerned about groups outside itself which defied the authority of the bishops who led the Great Church and challenged the priestly authority of bishops by stating that the laws the Bishops stood for were invalid and not needed if one had been singled out by the Holy Spirit. In the Christian era, the antinomians were challenging entrenched power elites.
Where we are concerned on this board has been with a secretive ntinomianism that exists within the bureaucracy of certain Buddhist and Hindu groups--and that serves to entrench that bureaucracy and its leaders, not challenge them. These are the various Buddhist and Hindu groups in which the very same authorities who teach publicly the need for adhering to laws of ethics and morality so as to practice Dharma, are secretly teaching that contary to their public teaching, there is a point where one is at a level where one is no longer under obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality, and that its the guru who decides and usually its to the gurus benefit that you are persuaded to set this aside to service the guru in his (more rarely her) lusts.
THe guru claims his or her lusts are free from ego, but from what many on this board have observed, these patterns of allegedly exalted behavior are ego driven, just sugared over with rationalizations that serve the entrenched power elite)
Antinomianism is the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation.
Few groups or sects explicitly call themselves "antinomian," but the charge is often leveled as a derogatory label by some sects against competing sects.
The topic of antinomianism is quite complex because it involves the interrelated issues of power, authority, law, and freedom.
On the one hand, religious rules/laws have been set in motion for the purpose of helping humanity to learn to live in harmony with each other and our planet.
This underlying purpose is exemplified in the various legal codes found in the world's religions.
On the other hand, religious codes have, in many cases, become archaic and oppressive to certain groups involved, thus acting as catalysts for social change.
Indeed, it is often the case that antinomian movements have been at the forefront of social change and the betterment of humanity.
Thus, the topic of antinomianism solicits different responses and reactions due to its ambivalent fruits.
The heart of antinomianism is belief in human perfection, the state of divine indwelling in which anything that one wills is good because it is prompted by the Holy Spirit within.
In the Western traditions, this belief was associated with messianism and belief in the dawning of a new age when the law, formerly a "custodian" (Galatians 3:24) needed as long as humanity labored under the deficiencies of fallen nature, would no longer be required.
In the new age, perfected believers would be "discharged from the law" (Romans 7:6). Yet in every age there have been good people who lived without the need of law, who in freedom would do by conscience what they were obliged to do by legal code.
Confucius described this state when he wrote: "At seventy, I could follow what my heart desired, without transgressing what was right."[1].
Re: Eckhart Tolle - more than a religion
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 21, 2012 11:47PM
[now-for-you.com]
Phil
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I hear ya, Phil.
I really do, because I have often thought the same things that you are saying. That the gurus are being hypocritical to one minute say "You are it. You need nothing"
And then the next minute, scheduling world-wide satsangs where people can come and sit in their presence.
I don't know the answer.
I have a close friend (the same one who originally introduced me to The Power Of Now) and he is much more of a guru type than I ever was.
(guru type = as in looking for an idealizable self-object? -- Corboy)
When Eckhart was in San Francisco once, he even offered me a free ticket (I think they cost about $100 at the time) to go with him to the event.
My response was "Why go through all of that to listen to the silence that I can hear more clearly, right here in my own back yard?"
My friend has been to satsangs with almost all of the teachers that we speak of here. He likes to be with these people himself, and get a personal sense of their level of presence (or whatever you want to call it?) I have learned that sharing my perspective one more time with him, is pointless.
Different folks, different strokes.
Phil
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Agreed, they indeed do. So why don't we listen to them??
What I see is that, generally speaking, the teachers and students enter in to an mutually agreed upon arrangement that places teacher and student in the center ring of the circus, pushing "the jewel" aside. The teachers get their careers, we get a glamorous cartoon show, everybody is happy.
500 people have gathered in a hall. They can spend their time together listening to the speaker, or listening to the jewel within.
It's that simple.
Please observe closely. If we choose the jewel within instead of the speaker, the speaker is no longer needed. Thus no career for the speaker, no fame, no book deal, no being at the center of a ring of devoted loving followers etc etc. All that's gone. If we listen to the jewel, the speaker becomes just another member of the forum, with a regular job down at the bakery.
I'm NOT being cynical here. The teachers are mostly sincere decent people.
I'm just asking us to be ruthlessly CLEAR about how this distracting teacher/student circus gets started and why it is maintained decade after decade, century after century.
It's like the legal profession. Or accounting. Laws and taxes are made really complicated on purpose, so that we'll all need lawyers and accountants to figure it out.
I agree that most of us, myself included, have done a lot of running around. Historical fact.
But, does it take a lot of running around?
Are years of running around required, necessary?
Or is that just a long standing tradition we are clinging to out of authority worship, lack of imagination, habit, stubornness etc.
Why are we so interested in defending and promoting this cumbersome time consuming process??? Why so little interest in finding ways to set it aside? Is the now philosophy cartoon show really that much better than the experience itself?
Summer, you said when you are in now, you have an experience of knowing THIS IS IT!
A wonderfully simple and honest description. A single sentence, from an authentic trustworthy source.
Readers naturally want to know how they can have that experience too. What is the shortest route to that place?
Yes, there's a need for human teachers. To show the shortest route to the teacher within.
And then, the human teacher can slam the door in our face when we return with questions. They can say....
"Don't bother me with this, ask the Teacher Within, this is their job. Leave me alone, I have cookies to bake! "
and
It's tricky, I admit. If one wishes to introduce "now" to a lot of people, one can sell now like anything is sold, make it glamorous. I do see the upside to that. The trouble is, then most folks get addicted to the glamour.
Maybe we need a rule, we get to go to 5 satsangs, and then big burly bouncers meet us at the door, and toss us out in to the street on our ass. We can hire Travis! It would work! That would break the authority spell for sure!
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