Here, for our readers is another thread discussion.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Read down and notice how a visitor named Elaine showed up and urged the person to sort it out with the employer who had fired her husband (a sufferer from bipolar who had refused to do Landmark)

That advice would have kept the people in the Landmark snarl and would have delayed their consulting an attorney and woulda made them miss the all important filing deadline.

Landmark started out as Erhard Seminars Training and have 35 plus years of refining every possible method to sell, pressure and wheedle and whine and guilt trip to get people to do Landmark.

That kind of experience is power, folks and a lone citizen who lacks information cannot out think anyone on this.

We are human persons and social creatures and hence influenceable by our surroundings.

Its more empowering to recognize our vulnerability (read up on Zimbardos Stanford Prison Experiment [www.google.com]
and Stanley Milgrams Obedience to Authority Experiment) [www.google.com] to face, humbly our vulnerability to social pressure.

That gives us the real power of fact checking any group event BEFORE we expose ourselves.

If someone I was not close to had asked me to go to an intro session, I would have flat out said no. The fact that it has been suggested multiple times in therapy, and that my concerns about it have been put down or worse attributed to "my problem- or resistance" are what makes this devious. Therapists and bosses are in positions of power, and they are abusing this. I went to her for help, people need their jobs. It makes it that much harder to walk away from these people. They already have a hook into you. These people know it and they don't care. It's all about their advancing in LEC and getting brownie points at LEC by getting more recruits.

LEC also coerces participants to get their friends and family to sign on....even their kids...

How dehumanizing is this? Do you really think LEC cares about you as a person, when grads of this program take advantage of people like this? Do you want to participate in such a program and turn into someone like this?


Why on earth would anyone want to walk into an intro session and be with these sharks?

Suppressed CBS News 60 Minutes on Landmark cult leader Werner Erhard, 3 Mar 1991: [wikileaks.org]

'Why on earth would anyone want to walk into an intro session and be with these sharks?'

My sentiments exactly, paperlane, but there are people who study sharks in the interests of preserving a unique form of life on the planet, Heck, they are even scientifically looking for remedies for human ailments in the species of fishy nightmares.
Its unstoppable cultural progess--think of the impact of the film 'Jaws' in the 70's, and what that presentation did to the cultural consciousness.


Still dicking around, I see, Corboy.

Kitchen, heat, remember?
You've got to know this stuff like your own backyard to avoid getting burned--remember how pleased you were when you thought I was a fireman, previously naval personnnel.
You are a very poor gambler, corboy. I'd get out of the game, myself, if I were such a poor loser.

Both of my daughters went to the Landmark forum, for one daughter it was very good, for the other one she just did what she had to to make the best grade. That daughter and her family are now involved with the Phoenix Assembly Church and the Phoenix & LA Dream Center. I feel these are cults at their finest. The have the great looking down to earth pastors and then they get them so twisted that now she is actually thinking of writing off her family. I would say to you go with your "gut instinct" that is the sixth sense that GOD gives to all of us as a "warning signal" to pay attention and something is not right. If Landmark is so good then why would she have to "push it" on you and your husband. We are at our wits end and my one daughter is about to destroy a whole family from the Dream Center "counseling" she received. I would say that through honest communication, mutual love and respect and a willingness to make your marriage work you would be better off on your own or find another therapist.......good luck.

Wow, kko4kk- that is a sad story about your daughter. Yes, I agree, that my feelings towards the therapist are that I am now wary and have lost trust. I think she wants us to have a great marriage- the Landmark way. In LEC there is no right or wrong, unless of course one has hesitations about LEC.

I was thinking about why we are susceptible to cults. I think every human has the need to connect with something beyond themselves, and the world is uncertain. Cults- promise absolute certainty..and even being sure there is nothing is absolute certainty- so something like LEC- that claims life is meaningless claims to be certain and thinking one is responsible for everything that happens is certainty. Of course people can be certain in their beliefs- but a healthy belief system is voluntary and life is somewhat uncertain.

I think different people can tolerate different levels of uncertainty.. and some people are attracted to the structure of a cult- something that decides everything for the person and tells them exactly what to do, think, and believe. It gives you instant friendship and instant family that all think, believe, and act like you.

Real life is a whole lot messier. Real families are messier and so is the world. People disagree. Who does not have someone in their family, jobs, church, temple.. whatever who just drives them nuts and we don't cut them out of our lives like a cult can. We have decisions to make every day that we don't know the outcome of. And marriage is also messy unless one is in a cult, or LEC or some other system.

Kko44, perhaps your daughter is one of those souls who wants this level of structure to deal with life, and is susceptible to cult behavior? What kind of legitimate religion cuts marriages and families apart? I am sorry you have to go through this. I think there is good advice on this site for families of cult members and what to do. I hope she will wake up to this some day, and that you can stay in touch with her. I hope in time she can learn to live with a healthy combination of logic, uncertainty, and the faith of her choice and can get away from these creeps. Perhaps there are professionals like the ones here who can help you. I hope so.

As for me, I don't want any more of this "therapy". I want my real husband, not some LEC cloned zombie. I went to hopefully learn to make things better, but what I have is better than anything LEC can produce.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2011 09:00AM by paperlane11.

Hi kkok4kk and paperlane11,

Hope you're well.

There is very little doubt that I was more susceptible to becoming involved with someone who was in a "cult", because I'd been exposed to "Ericksonian hypnosis" through NLP twenty years earlier.

I had a discussion a few months ago with a psychologist about this; he spoke about brain plasticity, and how once you've learned to ride a bike, even if you haven't ridden in 20 years, if you get back on it you might be a little wobbly at first, but you remember how to ride a bike. This is one reason why avoiding exposure to coercive persuasion is important.

Also, you have to remember that high-demand groups elicit extremely positive feeling / high states.

Best,

Questions 2- what was your involvement in NLP and Erikson hypnosis?
Good point though- once we allow someone beyond our defenses, it can happen again.

Hi Paperlane,

NLP is largely based on Ericksonian hypnosis; that's what the "quotes" were for - Erickson, from what I understand, never intended his techniques to be used outside a therapeutic context.

When I was a teenager, I became the "student" of someone who had been the direct student of Richard Bandler, one of the founders. By the time I was 18, I was at a what they call a Master Practitioner level - I'm not sure why, because I'm a lousy Ericksonian hypnotist - Erickson was a bit of trickster, and I am not. Covert is not me.

BUT I was a very good subject.

There is more to NLP than hypnosis, but it's a large component. My understanding is that EST / Landmark uses hypnosis as well. I think there is almost always a hypnosis component in any high-demand relationship.

It was once I saw a therapist after my experience falling in love with someone in a high-demand group, that I realized that my early involvement with NLP was no coincidence, and began to examine this.

Best,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2011 09:46AM by Questions_2.

Hello, thank you for your input, I really appreciate it. My daughter and her whole family did the Landmark thing and now the Phoenix Assembly Church and or Scottsdale Assembly Church along with the Dream Center in Phoenix and Los Angeles. I guess we will know on Christmas if we see her or not.
If not then it will be time to take action, until then I am praying to GOD. GOD would never tell us to separate ourselves from our families......HE tells us to take care of our families. GOD bless!